3478 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The game given frame of reference for the time leap in technology between the present and the collector base is the same as from before the prothean data cache to the present. That allowed a revolutionary jump in a matter of months and years: given that element zero was an entirely new concept of technology to master and that we've also been able to adapt various Reaper technologies, arguments that reverse engineering the Collector Base is impossible and worthless argue against the prior history and themes of the cannon.

That's a rather shaky argument. You're making an assumption that the tech is going to be anywhere near as 'simple' as the Prothean data cache, apparently ignoring the fact that the tech was from a totally different species that was significantly further ahead than the Protheans - a race which we still haven't actually equalled in terms of technical expertise.

Generally the theme of the canon doesn't normally involve building an almighty deus ex machina either, the theme normally revolves around pulling off a strategy that captialises on the Reaper's weakness.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 06 juin 2010 - 09:26 .

[JaegerBane]

Vaenier wrote...

Why is there no option to use TIM like a puppet, letting him kill the Reapers, before you take it back from him and give him a firm handshake as a reward for saving the galaxy?

I'm actually surprised there wasn't an option to hand the thing to Anderson as a Paragon option. Renegades can have their more-balls-than-brains choice by giving the thing to TIM and the middle of the roaders can just blow it up.

[DuffyMJ]

Ieldra2 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
If the races of the galaxy are to successfully end the Reaper threat, they are not going to do it by out-teching the Reapers. What good is building a single Reaper, even assuming you can control it, when you have thousands of Reapers coming at you?

You are assuming that all you can do with the base is build new Reapers. Were that the case, I'd destroy it in an instant, just as I'd destroy any conventional enemy's weapons factories. But new technology is not like that. Here's an analogy: if, knowing nothing about it beforehand, you find a nuclear bomb and successfully decipher the principles on which it's built, you will come to know that there is such a thing as radiation that you need to protect against. Translated to the ME universe: once you understand how (for instance) indoctrination works, you have a better chance of finding something that protects you against it.

Yes, there's the chance that Reaper tech is so advanced we can't understand it in time to do any good, but on the other side, no one has any idea how to do something against a Reaper unless it's so stupid as to manifest in a dead turian body so it can be killed more easily. There is a need to decipher their technology, a desperate need. If the price is letting TIM having it exclusively - which won't last - then so be it.

Saren already built a secret lab to research and understand indoctrination -- it didn't go too well.

[Vaenier]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
If the races of the galaxy are to successfully end the Reaper threat, they are not going to do it by out-teching the Reapers. What good is building a single Reaper, even assuming you can control it, when you have thousands of Reapers coming at you?

You are assuming that all you can do with the base is build new Reapers. Were that the case, I'd destroy it in an instant, just as I'd destroy any conventional enemy's weapons factories. But new technology is not like that. Here's an analogy: if, knowing nothing about it beforehand, you find a nuclear bomb and successfully decipher the principles on which it's built, you will come to know that there is such a thing as radiation that you need to protect against. Translated to the ME universe: once you understand how (for instance) indoctrination works, you have a better chance of finding something that protects you against it.

Yes, there's the chance that Reaper tech is so advanced we can't understand it in time to do any good, but on the other side, no one has any idea how to do something against a Reaper unless it's so stupid as to manifest in a dead turian body so it can be killed more easily. There is a need to decipher their technology, a desperate need. If the price is letting TIM having it exclusively - which won't last - then so be it.

Saren already built a secret lab to research and understand indoctrination -- it didn't go too well.

to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

[DuffyMJ]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The game given frame of reference for the time leap in technology between the present and the collector base is the same as from before the prothean data cache to the present. That allowed a revolutionary jump in a matter of months and years: given that element zero was an entirely new concept of technology to master and that we've also been able to adapt various Reaper technologies, arguments that reverse engineering the Collector Base is impossible and worthless argue against the prior history and themes of the cannon.

You're actually not on solid ground in saying that technological jump occurred in months/years. According to the Mass Effect novel, there are wide-ranging conspiracy theories that the ruins on Mars were actually discovered considerably earlier than when it was publicly announced.  Even -- in the narration -- Admiral Grissom (one of the major characters in the story) doubts the official story of the Prothean data cahce.

"The info nets were swarming with theories claiming that the Mars bunker had actually been discovered long before it was publicly announced; the report of the mining team unearthing it was just a well-time cover story.  The formation of the Alliance, they asserted, was in fact that final stage of a long and complicated series of international treaties and clandestine backroom deals that had taken taken many decades to negotiate. But most people preferred the idealistic notion that the revelation was a catalyst that energized the governments and citizens of the world, driving them boldly forward into a brave new age of cooperation and mutual respect."

Interestingly, it seems that if you believe that adaptations to advanced tech can be made so quickly, Dean the Young, that you are in fact representing the POV of the idealistic  paragons regrading their views on the events surrounding the Prothean cache ! What a catch-22!

[DuffyMJ]

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
If the races of the galaxy are to successfully end the Reaper threat, they are not going to do it by out-teching the Reapers. What good is building a single Reaper, even assuming you can control it, when you have thousands of Reapers coming at you?

You are assuming that all you can do with the base is build new Reapers. Were that the case, I'd destroy it in an instant, just as I'd destroy any conventional enemy's weapons factories. But new technology is not like that. Here's an analogy: if, knowing nothing about it beforehand, you find a nuclear bomb and successfully decipher the principles on which it's built, you will come to know that there is such a thing as radiation that you need to protect against. Translated to the ME universe: once you understand how (for instance) indoctrination works, you have a better chance of finding something that protects you against it.

Yes, there's the chance that Reaper tech is so advanced we can't understand it in time to do any good, but on the other side, no one has any idea how to do something against a Reaper unless it's so stupid as to manifest in a dead turian body so it can be killed more easily. There is a need to decipher their technology, a desperate need. If the price is letting TIM having it exclusively - which won't last - then so be it.

Saren already built a secret lab to research and understand indoctrination -- it didn't go too well.

to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

Citation?

[Vaenier]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

Citation?

You want to be writen up and given a ticket?

Modifié par Vaenier, 06 juin 2010 - 10:17 .

[Reiella]

It's about the only way to give the nice "Screw you" message to TIM?

[JaegerBane]

Vaenier wrote...
to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

Saren wasn't exactly a pauper. I'm not really sure how more money would have changed the end result, anyway. The scientists were going loopy.

[DuffyMJ]

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

Citation?

You want to be writen up and given a ticket?

Procedural justice and due process?  Whoa, that sounds a bit too by-the-book and "boy scout"-like for Collector Base-preservers!!! 

[Reiella]

JaegerBane wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

Saren wasn't exactly a pauper. I'm not really sure how more money would have changed the end result, anyway. The scientists were going loopy.

Saren also had a significance of resources, just consider how much he could sell to the Broker.

[ShamieGTX]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

For me... The last choice is impossible. I get stuck in some "A is better than B; B is better than C; C is better than A" loop due to many confusing, heh, "plot twists", as discussed in countless threads. First time, I sat for about 10 minutes, trying to find conclusive logic... But there ain't enough for me to call it that.

So I destroyed it. Either way, the fantasy of all powerful technology is as limited, as it forgets how limitless it is in this game

that be funny
"Shepard its YOUR decision" says The Illusive Man............ (Ten minutes of awkard silence, you can hear the screams of dead collectors in the background and explosions as the rest of your team holds the line, your teammates stand behind you, as one of them clears his throat ten minutes later, Shepard comes to his senses)
"Ill Blow It up!" yells Out Shepard

BTW my Main Shepard is a Paragon and he made the choice to keep it just so I can see what happens in the 3rd game, the others i played with just blow it up Sky High, I personally would kill the collectors and hand over the base to the alliance not Cerberus,...but since i cant make that choice, i just- Ohh what does this button do! -BOOM!

Modifié par ShamieGTX, 06 juin 2010 - 10:56 .

[Sajuro]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The game given frame of reference for the time leap in technology between the present and the collector base is the same as from before the prothean data cache to the present. That allowed a revolutionary jump in a matter of months and years: given that element zero was an entirely new concept of technology to master and that we've also been able to adapt various Reaper technologies, arguments that reverse engineering the Collector Base is impossible and worthless argue against the prior history and themes of the cannon.

You're actually not on solid ground in saying that technological jump occurred in months/years. According to the Mass Effect novel, there are wide-ranging conspiracy theories that the ruins on Mars were actually discovered considerably earlier than when it was publicly announced.  Even -- in the narration -- Admiral Grissom (one of the major characters in the story) doubts the official story of the Prothean data cahce.

"The info nets were swarming with theories claiming that the Mars bunker had actually been discovered long before it was publicly announced; the report of the mining team unearthing it was just a well-time cover story.  The formation of the Alliance, they asserted, was in fact that final stage of a long and complicated series of international treaties and clandestine backroom deals that had taken taken many decades to negotiate. But most people preferred the idealistic notion that the revelation was a catalyst that energized the governments and citizens of the world, driving them boldly forward into a brave new age of cooperation and mutual respect."

Interestingly, it seems that if you believe that adaptations to advanced tech can be made so quickly, Dean the Young, that you are in fact representing the POV of the idealistic  paragons regrading their views on the events surrounding the Prothean cache ! What a catch-22!

So what you're saying is that by the time we'd be able to reap such benefits of the collector base, the reapers might have already come and pulled a KayThxBai on the galaxy causing the cycle to begin again (Since so many are saying that the reapers will kill everyone without the base). Just making sure I'm getting the message right.

[Yakko77]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

I  think mainly to stick it to Cerberus.  Also, as Shepard, I beat a Reaper and defeated everything the Collector base had to throw at me.  I'll beat the crap out of anything thrown at me in ME3 too.

BRING  IT!!!!!

[Dean_the_Young]

JaegerBane wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The game given frame of reference for the time leap in technology between the present and the collector base is the same as from before the prothean data cache to the present. That allowed a revolutionary jump in a matter of months and years: given that element zero was an entirely new concept of technology to master and that we've also been able to adapt various Reaper technologies, arguments that reverse engineering the Collector Base is impossible and worthless argue against the prior history and themes of the cannon.

That's a rather shaky argument. You're making an assumption that the tech is going to be anywhere near as 'simple' as the Prothean data cache, apparently ignoring the fact that the tech was from a totally different species that was significantly further ahead than the Protheans - a race which we still haven't actually equalled in terms of technical expertise.

I make no assumption: the game tells us that the Reaper technology in the base is of a magnitude comparable to the Prothean data cache. The Prothean data cache was from a completely different species from humans, and of similar magnitude of generation gap. (Again, source being the game itself).

I see no reason to assume that the Protheans were further ahead in general than we are now. The opposite, really: the Reaper trap was always signalled at some general tech level, but the Prothean manipulation of the keepers gave the Citadel species centuries (as far back as the Rachni) to develop further. The Prothean's greatest independent development was the Conduit, but our favorite Matriarch bartender strongly implied that the reason the Asari haven't done the same is a lack of desire/will, not pure capability.

Generally the theme of the canon doesn't normally involve building an almighty deus ex machina either, the theme normally revolves around pulling off a strategy that captialises on the Reaper's weakness.

Half of mass effect is deus ex machina, and we have yet to find a single weakness of the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The game given frame of reference for the time leap in technology between the present and the collector base is the same as from before the prothean data cache to the present. That allowed a revolutionary jump in a matter of months and years: given that element zero was an entirely new concept of technology to master and that we've also been able to adapt various Reaper technologies, arguments that reverse engineering the Collector Base is impossible and worthless argue against the prior history and themes of the cannon.

You're actually not on solid ground in saying that technological jump occurred in months/years. According to the Mass Effect novel, there are wide-ranging conspiracy theories that the ruins on Mars were actually discovered considerably earlier than when it was publicly announced.  Even -- in the narration -- Admiral Grissom (one of the major characters in the story) doubts the official story of the Prothean data cahce.

"The info nets were swarming with theories claiming that the Mars bunker had actually been discovered long before it was publicly announced; the report of the mining team unearthing it was just a well-time cover story.  The formation of the Alliance, they asserted, was in fact that final stage of a long and complicated series of international treaties and clandestine backroom deals that had taken taken many decades to negotiate. But most people preferred the idealistic notion that the revelation was a catalyst that energized the governments and citizens of the world, driving them boldly forward into a brave new age of cooperation and mutual respect."

Interestingly, it seems that if you believe that adaptations to advanced tech can be made so quickly, Dean the Young, that you are in fact representing the POV of the idealistic  paragons regrading their views on the events surrounding the Prothean cache ! What a catch-22!

You don't can't even be bothered to use catch-22 in the proper context?

How about this for an answer: I place higher claim to the games (the cannon) than the stories (which have been retconned in other areas), especially when the two conflict. Since your excerpt doesn't even deny that tech adoption happened rapidly, you can't even claim to prove anything.

[Dean_the_Young]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
If the races of the galaxy are to successfully end the Reaper threat, they are not going to do it by out-teching the Reapers. What good is building a single Reaper, even assuming you can control it, when you have thousands of Reapers coming at you?

You are assuming that all you can do with the base is build new Reapers. Were that the case, I'd destroy it in an instant, just as I'd destroy any conventional enemy's weapons factories. But new technology is not like that. Here's an analogy: if, knowing nothing about it beforehand, you find a nuclear bomb and successfully decipher the principles on which it's built, you will come to know that there is such a thing as radiation that you need to protect against. Translated to the ME universe: once you understand how (for instance) indoctrination works, you have a better chance of finding something that protects you against it.

Yes, there's the chance that Reaper tech is so advanced we can't understand it in time to do any good, but on the other side, no one has any idea how to do something against a Reaper unless it's so stupid as to manifest in a dead turian body so it can be killed more easily. There is a need to decipher their technology, a desperate need. If the price is letting TIM having it exclusively - which won't last - then so be it.

Saren already built a secret lab to research and understand indoctrination -- it didn't go too well.

to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

Citation?

...Saren's lab was blown up by you, if you didn't remember. There was no catastrophic failure in the experiment.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

why do people destroy the collector base..UM IT WAS A PLACE THAT TOOK THE LIVES OF INNOCENTS,and ITS REAPERS TECHNOLOGY...if we use reapers weapons against them then we are saying we are weak without their tech. WE WILL BEAT THE REAPERS WITH OUR OWN SKILL AND POWER.

and many grim things happened in that place. it DESERVED to be destroyed

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Answer: Human smoothy factory is unsavory!

[JohnnyBeGood2]

JaegerBane wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why is there no option to use TIM like a puppet, letting him kill the Reapers, before you take it back from him and give him a firm handshake as a reward for saving the galaxy?

I'm actually surprised there wasn't an option to hand the thing to Anderson as a Paragon option. Renegades can have their more-balls-than-brains choice by giving the thing to TIM and the middle of the roaders can just blow it up.

I agree... I'm of the view that Cerberus options in general are probably best classed as Renegade (in the long run), or neutral and effective in the short term.

Looking long term I'd still favour working for the Council and the Alliance. And I'd say that was "more Paragon" in the long term.

[Dean_the_Young]

If you kept the base, how would you intend to keep TIM from taking it? Cerberus has the IFF and the freedom to move in Terminus space. The Alliance, and the Council, have neither.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you kept the base, how would you intend to keep TIM from taking it? Cerberus has the IFF and the freedom to move in Terminus space. The Alliance, and the Council, have neither.

Easy, Shepard could stop him.

[Sajuro]

Yakko77 wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

I  think mainly to stick it to Cerberus.  Also, as Shepard, I beat a Reaper and defeated everything the Collector base had to throw at me.  I'll beat the crap out of anything thrown at me in ME3 too.

BRING  IT!!!!!

too bad they don't have a grunt smiley

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you kept the base, how would you intend to keep TIM from taking it? Cerberus has the IFF and the freedom to move in Terminus space. The Alliance, and the Council, have neither.

Easy, Shepard could stop him.

If Shepard stays at the base, the Normandy either isn't going anywhere, meaning Shepard can't go and talk to whomever, or even if you send it on ahead Cerberus can simply land where Shepard is not and start carting out/carving up the base.

[Sajuro]

line the area around Omega 4 with mines.