3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Count Viceroy]

didymos1120 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...
Considering what they did in retribution, I'd say they already tried.

Not really.  The intent from the start was mostly to learn what exactly the conversion process does to someone in hopes of finding defenses.  Grayson was supposed to be killed, not controlled and used as a weapon.  I've no doubt TIM wouldn't at least consider finding a way to harness the tech as a weapon, but that wasn't the goal this time.

If grayson had been 'successful' he'd just been a prototype for more advanced creations. They were studying it with hopes of recreating the tech it just as much as they were studying it to gain a tactical advantage. What better way is there to fight a reaper than with another reaper.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[SpiderFan1217]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

None of my Shepards trust Cerberus. One project turned out a success, so far; Lazarus. If you don't count everyone dying except two agents and Shepard.

Because that's the only successful operation you know of. You don't see TIM calling you in to go to facility X because they've successfully created a super weapon against the Geth or something, they call you in to deal with their mistakes. Almost all sidequests in ME1 were sent to deal with the Alliance's screw ups but those apparently don't make the Alliance incompetent.

He has a point, but Cerberus screwups tend to be a bit bigger than the Alliance ones. Also, Cerberus has had many successes. They made armor for Shep. Guns for Shep. A ship for Shep. A helicopter thing for Shep. Shep. Thier track record is not as bad as it seems.

[upsettingshorts]

Count Viceroy wrote...
If grayson had been 'successful' he'd just been a prototype for more advanced creations. They were studying it with hopes of recreating the tech it just as much as they were studying it to gain a tactical advantage. What better way is there to fight a reaper than with another reaper.

It's a pretty crappy way of fighting the Reapers considering there are at least several hundred of them, built from billions of dead people from hundreds of dead races over the course of millions of years.

Making one, two, even a dozen Reapers would cost millions of lives and you'd still be overwhelmingly outnumbered.  So yeah, constructing a Reaper to fight the Reapers makes no sense tactically - it wouldn't be enough firepower - or strategically - you'd need to murder millions of people to build one, and people would probably notice.

I don't think too many people arguing for preserving the base has any illusions that it's going to be some magic "I win" button.  But it might save some lives, maybe it's only about endgame human technological superiority.  We won't know until Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Dave of Canada]

Count Viceroy wrote...

What better way is there to fight a reaper than with another reaper.

Because TIM isn't a moron? Retribution happens regardless if you kept the base or not, they were studying indoctrination and how Reaper tech effected organics.

[Count Viceroy]

nelly21 wrote...

Guys seriously, nothing in any of the games suggests that Cerberus is trying to conquer the galaxy. They want human ADVANCEMENT. They want us to be the biggest and baddest, that's it. Building a human Reaper would incite war with the rest of the galaxy. You would be stupid to start that war, and TIM is not stupid.
 

TImmy specifically uses the terms human supremacy and human dominance, advocating human advancement is just their PR department talking

[upsettingshorts]

That raises a good point: What if study of Reaper tech allows them to develop an indoctrination countermeasure?

Just one possible idea. There's more out there to choose from than "building or becoming a Reaper."

Count Viceroy wrote...
TImmy specifically uses the terms human supremacy and human dominance, advocating human advancement is just their PR department talking

Kind of like how the Alliance PR department labels Cerberus as terrorists, when they aren't?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:50 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iakus wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

 it's not like TIM is going to create his own Reaper.

This statement caught my eye for some reason.

Yeah, I can absolutely see TIM doing so, if he thought he could control it

Hey, if that's what it takes to save humanity, right? 

So you don't want to stop the reapers. You want to replace them?

I was being... sarcastic. 

[SpiderFan1217]

[/quote]

So yeah, constructing a Reaper to fight the Reapers makes no sense tactically - it wouldn't be enough firepower - or strategically - you'd need to murder millions of people to build one, and people would probably notice.

[/quote]

lulz.

[didymos1120]

Count Viceroy wrote...
If grayson had been 'successful' he'd just been a prototype for more advanced creations. They were studying it with hopes of recreating the tech it just as much as they were studying it to gain a tactical advantage. What better way is there to fight a reaper than with another reaper.

Maybe. Maybe not.  You're guessing.  But whatever: they didn't try to make a Reaper, which was my point.  There was also nothing said about that being the ultimate goal, and it simply was not the immediate goal.  I'm no Cerberus fan, but this "OH NOES! THEY GONNA MAKE A REAPER" thing is....speculative. At best.  Shep's smart-ass comment to that effect in the ending is the only actual evidence for the notion, and it's really crappy evidence because, well, it's just a smart-ass comment.  Yeah, yeah: grain o' truth, whatever.  Still doesn't make any kind of decent case.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

He has a point, but Cerberus screwups tend to be a bit bigger than the Alliance ones. Also, Cerberus has had many successes. They made armor for Shep. Guns for Shep. A ship for Shep. A helicopter thing for Shep. Shep. Thier track record is not as bad as it seems.

Oh I know, I'm just growing sick of the forums and it's anti-human bu-

*Udina*

[Killjoy Cutter]

nelly21 wrote...

Guys seriously, nothing in any of the games suggests that Cerberus is trying to conquer the galaxy. They want human ADVANCEMENT. They want us to be the biggest and baddest, that's it. Building a human Reaper would incite war with the rest of the galaxy. You would be stupid to start that war, and TIM is not stupid.

The base would mean that our own technology advances us far beyond the other races. The turians need new ships, they have to get them from us. The Asari commandos need new guns, they have to get them from us. It elevates humanity from that annoying new kid on the block to the most advanced society in the galaxy. That's it.

Just make sure you rotate the Collector base research crews out every 3 months and keep the old crews locked up...

[SpiderFan1217]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iakus wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

 it's not like TIM is going to create his own Reaper.

This statement caught my eye for some reason.

Yeah, I can absolutely see TIM doing so, if he thought he could control it

Hey, if that's what it takes to save humanity, right? 

So you don't want to stop the reapers. You want to replace them?

I was being... sarcastic. 

  No you wern't! 

[upsettingshorts]

didymos1120 wrote...
Shep's smart-ass comment to that effect in the ending is the only actual evidence for the notion, and it's really crappy evidence because, well, it's just a smart-ass comment.

I love The Illusive Man's response.  It's basically, "Stop kidding around Shepard this is serious."

[nelly21]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

None of my Shepards trust Cerberus. One project turned out a success, so far; Lazarus. If you don't count everyone dying except two agents and Shepard.

Because that's the only successful operation you know of. You don't see TIM calling you in to go to facility X because they've successfully created a super weapon against the Geth or something, they call you in to deal with their mistakes. Almost all sidequests in ME1 were sent to deal with the Alliance's screw ups but those apparently don't make the Alliance incompetent.

Plus, I would say that Jack was successful. Bat-$#!% crazy, but she's still an incredibly powerful biotic. Overlord was technically successful. If nothing else, it proved that the geth can be controlled. Cerberus has a bunch of failed experiments sure, I would ask that anybody that reads history to show me an example of technology that was created correctly on the first try.

[Count Viceroy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

What better way is there to fight a reaper than with another reaper.

Because TIM isn't a moron? Retribution happens regardless if you kept the base or not, they were studying indoctrination and how Reaper tech effected organics.

Wether the base is destroyed or not is irrelevant, they could just as well be trying to replicate tech they scavanged from the wreckage as much as they could have gotten the tech from the base if shepard didn't destroy it. Wether he's a moron or not remains to be seen, I don't think its beyond him to make humans super soldiers with reaper tech if it was deemed 'safe'.

I didn't mean building a complete reaper ship. Say grayson became just as he was, but without the reaper control. Take a guess on how long it would take for timmy to start making super soldiers.  I'd consider that as qualifying to fight reapers with reapers.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That raises a good point: What if study of Reaper tech allows them to develop an indoctrination countermeasure?

Just one possible idea. There's more out there to choose from than "building or becoming a Reaper."

Count Viceroy wrote...
TImmy specifically uses the terms human supremacy and human dominance, advocating human advancement is just their PR department talking

Kind of like how the Alliance PR department labels Cerberus as terrorists, when they aren't?

They're right there on the line, if they're not.  They've certain done a few things that would earn them the label.

[smudboy]

iakus wrote...

So is TIM a murderous sociopath, or simply incompetent?  Remember, TIM maintains direct oversight over all his projects.  So many cells "going rogue", if true, does not speak well for his management skills.  

I don't believe it either, but that's what every email and situation boils down to: TIM had no idea of what kind of experiments were going on.  TIM is not ethically gray: he simply wasn't told or made aware of what actually happened in those cells.

Also, a producer is different from a manager.

Modifié par smudboy, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

nelly21 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

None of my Shepards trust Cerberus. One project turned out a success, so far; Lazarus. If you don't count everyone dying except two agents and Shepard.

Because that's the only successful operation you know of. You don't see TIM calling you in to go to facility X because they've successfully created a super weapon against the Geth or something, they call you in to deal with their mistakes. Almost all sidequests in ME1 were sent to deal with the Alliance's screw ups but those apparently don't make the Alliance incompetent.

Plus, I would say that Jack was successful. Bat-$#!% crazy, but she's still an incredibly powerful biotic. Overlord was technically successful. If nothing else, it proved that the geth can be controlled. Cerberus has a bunch of failed experiments sure, I would ask that anybody that reads history to show me an example of technology that was created correctly on the first try.

Most don't involve torturing children...

[SpiderFan1217]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

None of my Shepards trust Cerberus. One project turned out a success, so far; Lazarus. If you don't count everyone dying except two agents and Shepard.

Because that's the only successful operation you know of. You don't see TIM calling you in to go to facility X because they've successfully created a super weapon against the Geth or something, they call you in to deal with their mistakes. Almost all sidequests in ME1 were sent to deal with the Alliance's screw ups but those apparently don't make the Alliance incompetent.

Plus, I would say that Jack was successful. Bat-$#!% crazy, but she's still an incredibly powerful biotic. Overlord was technically successful. If nothing else, it proved that the geth can be controlled. Cerberus has a bunch of failed experiments sure, I would ask that anybody that reads history to show me an example of technology that was created correctly on the first try.

Most don't involve torturing children...

^  This.  ^  I is against the torture of childrens.

[Roamingmachine]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Huh?  I'd be careful about calling people delusional with that kind of analysis.  As far as Mass Effect 2 is concerned, Cerberus is the "war effort."

I'm talking about the whole Paul Grayson fiasco.If the reapers didn't know everything they need to know about the capabilites and positions of the alliance before, they certainly know now.All because TIM let his ego get the best of him.Malice or ineptitude, it doesn't matter.It aided the enemy.

[upsettingshorts]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
They're right there on the line, if they're not.  They've certain done a few things that would earn them the label.

Only from people who either don't know what the term means and think it applies.

Or from people who do know what the term means and are trying to mislead people and discredit them.

[Dave of Canada]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Wether the base is destroyed or not is irrelevant, they could just as well be trying to replicate tech they scavanged from the wreckage as much as they could have gotten the tech from the base if shepard didn't destroy it. Wether he's a moron or not remains to be seen, I don't think its beyond him to make humans super soldiers with reaper tech if it was deemed 'safe'.

I didn't mean building a complete reaper ship. Say grayson became just as he was, but without the reaper control. Take a guess on how long it would take for timmy to start making super soldiers.  I'd consider that as qualifying to fight reapers with reapers.

He wasn't creating a super soldier, the entire Grayson project was only to test out the effects of indoctrination and how Reapers change their organic hosts. The project was working rather well with TIM noticing the changes that Grayson was going through until Anderson and the Turians decided to intervene.  If the goal of the project was to create soldiers, they would've tried to control Grayson instead of just observing him.

[Dave of Canada]

Roamingmachine wrote...

I'm talking about the whole Paul Grayson fiasco.If the reapers didn't know everything they need to know about the capabilites and positions of the alliance before, they certainly know now.All because TIM let his ego get the best of him.Malice or ineptitude, it doesn't matter.It aided the enemy.

But Grayson wouldn't have gotten loose if Anderson and company didn't decide to attack, Grayson would've been killed before ever becoming a threat.

[nelly21]

smudboy wrote...

iakus wrote...

So is TIM a murderous sociopath, or simply incompetent?  Remember, TIM maintains direct oversight over all his projects.  So many cells "going rogue", if true, does not speak well for his management skills.  

I don't believe it either, but that's what every email and situation boils down to: TIM had no idea of what kind of experiments were going on.  TIM is not ethically gray: he simply wasn't told or made aware of what actually happened in those cells.

Also, a producer is different from a manager.

And lest we forget, the kind of oversight TIM performs is demonstrated in Jack's loyalty mission. He clearly didn't know the methods the scientists were using. To be honest, I don't think he wants to know. Cerberus is driven by results, as is TIM. It's why Miranda was slightly jealous in the beginning, because the Lazarus project had an unusual amount of direct involvement from TIM.