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[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Following Reaper tech is exactly what the Reapers want organics to do.

No it isn't.

Says you.

[Dave of Canada]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Says you.

Reaper tech they want you to use: Mass Relays, the Citadel and such.
Reaper tech they don't want you to use: Anything from the Collector Base.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Says you.

Reaper tech they want you to use: Mass Relays, the Citadel and such.
Reaper tech they don't want you to use: Anything from the Collector Base.

More specifically: 

The Reapers want you to use their openly left technology that's so advanced you can't reverse it. They never want you to understand it: by the time a civilization is advanced enough to start cracking the mysteries (like the Prothean attempt to recreate Mass Relays), the Reapers invade.

They've never wanted you to study their own technology to understand it. The Reaper traps is based on being easy to use without being understood, not on understanding it.

[Nightwriter]

How is Harbinger able to communicate with the Collector General - and directly assume control of him - from all the way out in dark space?

[Dean_the_Young]

Only one way to find out: disection!



(And then implant in some guy for testing purposes.)

[Ziggy]

I saved it the first time because I figured that anything that helps against the reapers is worth keeping.



Then every single team member I talked to afterwards said they thought it was a bad idea, which made it pretty clear that saving the base was the evil/renegade way to go about it and will have evil/renegade outcomes (the writing is pretty linear like that)...



So, being a fan of happy/paragon endings, I went back and destroyed it.

[Jagri]

Don't start using test subjects! Thats when the pattern of mostly everyone dying starts.

Lets try to control the Geth ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Rachni ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Giant Plant ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Plant Thrall ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control Shepard ~Oh hell no everyone is going to die!~

Now its lets try to control collecter technology? ~Insert results here~ 

Modifié par Jagri, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Iakus]

smudboy wrote...

iakus wrote...

Shepard:  "How many operations is Cerberus running right now?"

EDI: "Never more than a dozen.  The Illusive Man likes to maintain personal oversight.  Too many tasks strains his ability to multitask"

Joker:  "He's a little control-freaky.  Just a layman's opinion"

Incompetent is looking more and more likely

Look at the actual programs, like Pragia and Overlord.  Was he aware of all the facts?  No.  Did he hook up Jack and David to machines or endanger their lives?  No.  Does that make him incompetent?  No.  That means the project directors/operatives on those projects weren't giving good enough reports, and took extreme measures due to stress or TIM would've cut the projects.

Did he personally, by his own hand, commit those acts?  No.  However, these were projects that he maintains personal oversight of.  This leads to two possible conclusions:

1) He was aware of the acts being done, and allowed them, either by looking the other way to maintain plausible deniability, or  he actually approved the procedures.  In either case, he's a monster

or

2) He's totally clueless over projects which he maintains direct oversight.  This seems to indicate one or more of the following:

TIM is really really bad at delegating authority

He's overly trusting of his subordinates.  Though you'd think after the second project meltdown he'd have been cured of this

TIM pushes his operatives too hard, makes unreasonable demands for results and ends up forcing them to cut corners and safety protocols.

TIM's "oversight" is a bluff

TIM is really the new "Illusive Man" and only started two weeks ago.  The old Illusive Man was much more lax

So we are again at  evil or incompetent?  ME 1 suggests the former.  ME 2 suggests the latter. "Both" is also a valid possibility.

[didymos1120]

Dave of Canada wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

I don't know.  There's a lot of sanctimonious and tedious Renegades roaming about too.  They're just sanctimonious and tedious about different things.

I'm not talking about only the playerbase, ingame Paragons are extremely self-righteous. For example, Mordin's loyalty mission. The paragon dialogue options has Shepard talk down to Mordin like if Mordin was a monster and how he should feel bad for what he's done. BDTS also has this, you save like 3 people because Shepard didn't want to be like Balak, even Balak could just take a gun and shoot three people in a crowd and have done equal damage but (now focusing on the playerbase) people would defend the decision to the death saying that Renegade = Evil.

Yeah, true.  By the same token, Renegade dialogue often has Shep acting like total d!ck for no discenrnible reason beyond Shep's apparent enjoyment of such behavior.  That's just as bad of a character flaw; it's just different.  Besides that, there's plenty of Paragon dialouge that is not self-righteous, so all you can really say is that Paragons sometimes behave that way. 

None of which instances, BTW, proves much.  It's not any sort of argument against any given Paragon position.  It doesn't mean they're wrong.  It simply means they're a pain in the ass about some stuff.  There are plenty of Paragon options I won't ever take (Balak is one.  F*ck that guy), but it usually has nothing to do with the tone.  There are also plenty where the tone grates on me, but I pick 'em anyway because I happen to think the idea behind it is correct.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

How is Harbinger able to communicate with the Collector General - and directly assume control of him - from all the way out in dark space?

How indeed?  And is he limited to Collectors in that regard?

Modifié par iakus, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[RusZap]

Okay not reading all these pages but mine is simple:



Read retribution. This tech is far more advanced then we know what to do with. Who's to say it won't indoctrinate whomever is there and end up bringing a new army of slaves to the reapers. Too dangerous to mess with IMO

[RusZap]

Jagri wrote...

Don't start using test subjects! Thats when the pattern of mostly everyone dying starts.

Lets try to control the Geth! ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Rachni ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Giant Plant ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Plant Thrall ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control Shepard ~Oh hell no everyone is going to die!~

EXACTLY!  Look at how many times Cerberus screws up their operations.  Way too much power, if they screw that up MAJOR consequences

[elmephd1]

Nightwriter wrote...

How is Harbinger able to communicate with the Collector General - and directly assume control of him - from all the way out in dark space?

In Mass Effect Retribution it's explained that all Reaper tech has quantum-entanglement communication as part of it, allowing real-time connections no matter where they are.

[Dave of Canada]

RusZap wrote...

EXACTLY!  Look at how many times Cerberus screws up their operations.

We've covered this a bajillion and two times.

1. Shepard wouldn't be called in to see how successful something is, he only deals with the screw ups.
2. The Alliance also screwed up a bajillion times.
3. Each Cerberus screw up results in new knowledge / information for them to use or the project they worked on was successful. (Example: Jack)

[Dave of Canada]

RusZap wrote...

Read retribution. This tech is far more advanced then we know what to do with. Who's to say it won't indoctrinate whomever is there and end up bringing a new army of slaves to the reapers. Too dangerous to mess with IMO

I really, really hate the Retribution example. TIM was studying indoctrination and how reaper tech impacted organics, he wasn't going to let Grayson break loose and wreak havoc around the galaxy if Anderson didn't show up to the Turians and say "Alright, we're saving Grayson gaiz!".  Even after that entire ordeal, TIM's objective of learning more was fufilled anyways.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[Mecha Tengu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Says you.

Reaper tech they want you to use: Mass Relays, the Citadel and such.
Reaper tech they don't want you to use: Anything from the Collector Base.

More specifically: 

The Reapers want you to use their openly left technology that's so advanced you can't reverse it. They never want you to understand it: by the time a civilization is advanced enough to start cracking the mysteries (like the Prothean attempt to recreate Mass Relays), the Reapers invade.

They've never wanted you to study their own technology to understand it. The Reaper traps is based on being easy to use without being understood, not on understanding it.

I don't see how gaining advanced technology can ever be a bad thing. Sure it's not your innovation, and sure you may be going in the path that the reapers have decided to take.

While humans may not ever probably fully understand reaper technology, human innovation and reverse engineering can go a long way.

IRL historical example of reverse engineering:  Technical documents for the V2 and related technologies were captured by the Western Allies at the end of the war. Soviet and captured German engineers had to reproduce technical documents and plans, working from captured hardware, in order to make their clone of the rocket, the R-1, which began the postwar Soviet rocket program that led to the R-7 and the beginning of the space race.

by the time the soviet union had reached space, I think they had forgotten where they had gained the technology to do so

[Iakus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

RusZap wrote...

EXACTLY!  Look at how many times Cerberus screws up their operations.

We've covered this a bajillion and two times.

1. Shepard wouldn't be called in to see how successful something is, he only deals with the screw ups.
2. The Alliance also screwed up a bajillion times.
3. Each Cerberus screw up results in new knowledge / information for them to use or the project they worked on was successful. (Example: Jack)

1 True enough.  But what, save the Lazarus Program and EDI, have we actually seen of Cerberus successfully researching new tech?

2 The rogue VI is the only example I can think of that the Alliance brought Shepard in in for a "tech gone wild" case.  And there were no fatalities that I recall.  Most of the other stuff the called Shep in for concerned pirates, terrorists, geth attacks, some splinter group called "Cerberus",

3 Mostly the knowledge Cerberus has gained seems to be composed of various ways of saying "that's fatal"

[didymos1120]

Jagri wrote...

Lets try to control the Giant Plant ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Plant Thrall ~Nearly everyone dies~

'Why do so many people attribute these to Cerberus? They didn't have anything to do with those: the Thorian was an ExoGeni discovery, and Zhu's Hope was their little project.  The colony overrun by Creepers was an ExoGeni outpost. Cerberus just bought a handful of Creepers off them at some point to study.  We only ever see one, I believe.  It's in one of bases you raid while looking for Kahoku. 

[Dave of Canada]

iakus wrote...

1 True enough.  But what, save the Lazarus Program and EDI, have we actually seen of Cerberus successfully researching new tech?

Cerberus played a key part in the original construction of the Normandy, they've recreated the Normandy SR2 and there's a dozen projects going on at one time, when we're called in to deal with 1-2 of them that would mean the other ten are doing just fine.

EDIT: This doesn't include whatever their front companies are doing.

2 The rogue VI is the only example I can think of that the Alliance brought Shepard in in for a "tech gone wild" case.  And there were no fatalities that I recall.  Most of the other stuff the called Shep in for concerned pirates, terrorists, geth attacks, some splinter group called "Cerberus",

Most of the Alliance's problems aren't self caused, they screw up because they can't possibly do anything without Shepard.

They can't protect their scientists (they know what scientists are being targetted...)
They can't deal with a VI (that they screwed up).
They can't defend people from the Geth.
They can't deal with a Cult.
They can't deal with their probes.
They can't deal with their exploding-probes.
They can't deal with a hostage situation.

For a military group, they can't do anything without Shepard.

3 Mostly the knowledge Cerberus has gained seems to be composed of various ways of saying "that's fatal"

Project Overlord killed every operative except for Archer, while it was a disaster if you consider the deaths it's proven that Geth can be controlled and that future study with David could effectively have Geth under the control of Cerberus / Humanity.

The failure with the Rachni proved that the Rachni were sentient beings and not trained war hounds as Cerberus expected, while it wasn't much of a knowledge gain it did make Rachni one of their "DO NOT TARGET" list.

Teltin facility's brutal research lead to Jack becoming one of the strongest biotics in the galaxy.

That's all the screw ups I can think off the top of my head... mmm...

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:43 .

[Inverness Moon]

Em23 wrote...

I saved it the first time because I figured that anything that helps against the reapers is worth keeping.

Then every single team member I talked to afterwards said they thought it was a bad idea, which made it pretty clear that saving the base was the evil/renegade way to go about it and will have evil/renegade outcomes (the writing is pretty linear like that)...

So, being a fan of happy/paragon endings, I went back and destroyed it.

I wanted an option to yell at all my squad mates for being shortsighted idiots more concerned with TIM than the imminent invasion of the reapers and galactic extinction.

There is no way you could convince me that TIM is more of a threat, or even nearly as much of a threat as the reapers. Saving the base is the most logical thing to do, in my opinion.

iakus wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

RusZap wrote...

EXACTLY!  Look at how many times Cerberus screws up their operations.

We've covered this a bajillion and two times.

1. Shepard wouldn't be called in to see how successful something is, he only deals with the screw ups.
2. The Alliance also screwed up a bajillion times.
3. Each Cerberus screw up results in new knowledge / information for them to use or the project they worked on was successful. (Example: Jack)

1 True enough.  But what, save the Lazarus Program and EDI, have we actually seen of Cerberus successfully researching new tech?

2 The rogue VI is the only example I can think of that the Alliance brought Shepard in in for a "tech gone wild" case.  And there were no fatalities that I recall.  Most of the other stuff the called Shep in for concerned pirates, terrorists, geth attacks, some splinter group called "Cerberus",

3 Mostly the knowledge Cerberus has gained seems to be composed of various ways of saying "that's fatal"

We'll find out Cerberus's successes whenever BioWare needs them for a plot. This is something that will probably pop up in ME3.

Basically BioWare milks Cerberus for cleanup missions and stuff like that, but when they need someone to bring Shep back from the dead and provide him with an awesome new ship, they go to Cerberus. It would be lovely if we learned about a whole bunch of Cerberus successes in ME3 or something else, just to offset everyone who says they're all incompetent and can't do anything. Cerberus's success to failure ratio just seems a bit unrealistic to me.

[OneDrunkMonk]

Cerberus is essentially an intergalactic version of old racial dominance back on earth. So it's no longer about skin color but all humanity vs the "aliens." If you look at how Cerberus operates, the language they use, it's easy to see the roots. Cerberus's need for human dominance is based in fear. Because humanity came in late to the intergalactic community and humans aren't use to being in inferior positions. Since the Prothean discover on Mars humanity had a chance to eat a big helping of humble pie but nooo...The fear of being dominated by other races spurred groups like Cerberus to cultivate anti-alien sediment and take actions towards their own dominance by any means necessary.



So yeah, glad to have destroyed the base and ****** off TIM. It's more than evident, as it should have been to Cerberus, that survival of one race depends on the survival of others, equally.

[didymos1120]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Cerberus's success to failure ratio just seems a bit unrealistic to me.

Why?  Why should they have a huge string of successes?  They try stuff that's never even been attempted, or conceived for that matter, on a regular basis.  They should fail most of the time.  I know some people get all "OH NOES! TVTROPES!" but this notion that Cerberus fails "too much" is a perfect example of Reality Is Unrealistic.  I'm not one who supports Cerberus, but it has nothing do with them being "screw-ups". 

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[Iakus]

didymos1120 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Cerberus's success to failure ratio just seems a bit unrealistic to me.

Why?  Why should they have a huge string of successes?  They try stuff that's never even been attempted, or conceived for that matter, on a regular basis.  They should fail most of the time.  I know some people get all "OH NOES! TVTROPES!" but this notion that Cerberus fails "too much" is a perfect example of Reality Is Unrealistic.  I'm not one who supports Cerberus, but it has nothing do with them being "screw-ups". 

Personally, it's not just that they fail, it's that they fail so spectacularly that it's almost like they don't care what happens, as long as it's dramatic.  Bady count? Mere trifles.

[Dave of Canada]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

So yeah, glad to have destroyed the base and ****** off TIM. It's more than evident, as it should have been to Cerberus, that survival of one race depends on the survival of others, equally.

Sparing the Collector Base doesn't make aliens suddenly disappear.