3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

didymos1120 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Cerberus's success to failure ratio just seems a bit unrealistic to me.

Why?  Why should they have a huge string of successes?  They try stuff that's never even been attempted, or conceived for that matter, on a regular basis.  They should fail most of the time.  I know some people get all "OH NOES! TVTROPES!" but this notion that Cerberus fails "too much" is a perfect example of Reality Is Unrealistic.  I'm not one who supports Cerberus, but it has nothing do with them being "screw-ups". 

I think it is unrealistic that their only successes are ones that are necessary for you to be able to play the game: Project Lazarus, Normandy SR1 concept, Normandy SR2 construction, EDI.

Though I will say, I believe the good that came from their successes outweighs all the bad they did. After all, if they hadn't pushed for the Normandy SR1, Shepard would not have been able to stop Saren and Sovereign. He would be alive for ME2 to destroy the collectors or continue the fight against the reapers either.

TIM believes history will vindicate Cerberus. When Shepard saves the galaxy from the reapers, I'm sure TIM will make it known that Cerberus brought him back and gave him his ship. That will have a significant impact on public opinion I think.

[Dave of Canada]

Shandepared wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

I was thinking Hanar, easier to grind.

I suggest Elcor due to their stable predictability.  We grind up enough of them and we can build a at least a portion of a Reaper AI, which we'll study. Doing so might give us a better understanding of how the Reaper AI works, how it thinks and such, and what sorts of hacking attempts it might be vulnerable to. Plus the elcor are weak politically so if their colonies start vanishing nobody will care enough to do something about it.

Intimidatingly: I am the Vanguard of your Destruction.

[Darth_Trethon]

I never destroy the Collector base because I'm not insanely suicidal and realize we'll need every bit of technological advancement we can get if we are to have the slightest hope of defeating the reapers. Sovereign alone decimated the combined fleets of the council races....I can't even imagine what hundreds and thousands of reapers will do if we aren't as prepared and armed with the highest tech possible.

[Jagri]

didymos1120 wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Lets try to control the Giant Plant ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Plant Thrall ~Nearly everyone dies~

'Why do so many people attribute these to Cerberus? They didn't have anything to do with those: the Thorian was an ExoGeni discovery, and Zhu's Hope was their little project.  The colony overrun by Creepers was an ExoGeni outpost. Cerberus just bought a handful of Creepers off them at some point to study.  We only ever see one, I believe.  It's in one of bases you raid while looking for Kahoku. 

Never said it was Cerberus... I said experiments that lead to many people dying... And ExoGeni could be a Cerberus business front.

[Fishy]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I never destroy the Collector base because I'm not insanely suicidal and realize we'll need every bit of technological advancement we can get if we are to have the slightest hope of defeating the reapers. Sovereign alone decimated the combined fleets of the council races....I can't even imagine what hundreds and thousands of reapers will do if we aren't as prepared and armed with the highest tech possible.

Still .. You're using tech of the reaper and not your own tech . It's like giving a nuclear bomb to a Neanderthal man.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There are two examples of screw ups of races being given technology they shouldn't. The Krogan and the Geth. These screw ups are of such a character that I'd rather take our chances without the tech than pay for it down the line anyway. Why save the galaxy just to damn it the next day?

[Nightwriter]

elmephd1 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

How is Harbinger able to communicate with the Collector General - and directly assume control of him - from all the way out in dark space?

In Mass Effect Retribution it's explained that all Reaper tech has quantum-entanglement communication as part of it, allowing real-time connections no matter where they are.

Does the connection still work? Does the quantum pair still give Harbinger access to the base? Can he broadcast indoctrination signals there from out in dark space? How much control does he have over the base's systems?

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

elmephd1 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

How is Harbinger able to communicate with the Collector General - and directly assume control of him - from all the way out in dark space?

In Mass Effect Retribution it's explained that all Reaper tech has quantum-entanglement communication as part of it, allowing real-time connections no matter where they are.

Does the connection still work? Does the quantum pair still give Harbinger access to the base? Can he broadcast indoctrination signals there from out in dark space? How much control does he have over the base's systems?

Indoctrination is a field effect. It's broadcast radius is limited to the source of the signal. It's not canned music you can put on the radio.

Harbinger's control of the base was dependent on being through the Collector General. If he could have destroyed the base rather than let it be captured, he would have.

[Fettsplace]

I've done both, but personally I prefer destroying it. paragon or regrade you can't trust TIM. Besides for some reason that one thing doesn't seem right no matter if I'm playing paragon or renegade. Of course I had the same problem with the ending of ME1 I usually saved the council.

[Dean_the_Young]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are two examples of screw ups of races being given technology they shouldn't. The Krogan and the Geth. These screw ups are of such a character that I'd rather take our chances without the tech than pay for it down the line anyway. Why save the galaxy just to damn it the next day?

Wait, so the Asari finding the Citadel and Prothean technology don't count?

Or the Salarians?

How about the Turians? They found pretty good amounts of Prothean tech before they came on the galactic scene.

Let's not forget Humanity, without who's discovery and exploitation of the Mars cache the Reapers would have won.

And how were the geth given technology? There were made by the Quarians own developed technology. Geth aren't a case of future technology getting out of hand, but of self-developed technology going amuck.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Dave of Canada]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why save the galaxy just to damn it the next day?

So you damn the galaxy now to the Reapers? TIM and Cerberus aren't a threat to us, nor is keeping the base. If they ever do become a threat, they won't be nearly as dangerous as the Reapers. You're blowing up a weapon that has no morality because the person (on your side) might pose a threat after the bigger threat is gone.

[Marah_Fayne]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why save the galaxy just to damn it the next day?

So you damn the galaxy now to the Reapers? TIM and Cerberus aren't a threat to us, nor is keeping the base. If they ever do become a threat, they won't be nearly as dangerous as the Reapers. You're blowing up a weapon that has no morality because the person (on your side) might pose a threat after the bigger threat is gone.

So, you think that when I import my ME2 savegame into ME3 it's just going to say "!Sorry, you destroyed the Collector base, now you don't have the weapon you need to stop the Reapers.  Game over, would you like to start a new game?"

[Ultai]

Suprez30 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I never destroy the Collector base because I'm not insanely suicidal and realize we'll need every bit of technological advancement we can get if we are to have the slightest hope of defeating the reapers. Sovereign alone decimated the combined fleets of the council races....I can't even imagine what hundreds and thousands of reapers will do if we aren't as prepared and armed with the highest tech possible.

Still .. You're using tech of the reaper and not your own tech . It's like giving a nuclear bomb to a Neanderthal man.

So you consider the Thanix cannon and EDI your tech?

[Marah_Fayne]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I never destroy the Collector base because I'm not insanely suicidal and realize we'll need every bit of technological advancement we can get if we are to have the slightest hope of defeating the reapers. Sovereign alone decimated the combined fleets of the council races....I can't even imagine what hundreds and thousands of reapers will do if we aren't as prepared and armed with the highest tech possible.

Same question to you, Darth:  Do you believe that when I import my ME2 savegame into ME3 I won't be able to finish the game because I don't have the base?

Or am I just being too literal and think we're talking about a game...not a fantasy universe or something...

[Rhostadt]

There's literally nothing to be gained from the Collector's base for the purpose of fighting the Reapers (now if you're pro-Cerberus that's another matter). It's full of tech that's already been mastered and *defeated* by the Reapers. In ME1 it's made pretty clear that one of the main purposes of the mass relays and Citadel is to control the technological development of the biological species, to make sure there's few, if any, surprises when the Reapers come calling.



So I would think that the galaxies' best bet, is to surprise them. Innovate. Find weapons and defenses that aren't derivative technologies. Yeah, that's insanely hard, but in the millions of years the Reapers have been doing this, how many times were their targets using Reaper-derivative tech? Every time, and they all lost.



It seems to me the only thing useful there, you end up with whether you destroyed the base or not (that data pad with the Reaper info). Plus, there was plainly enough of Sovereign left for the turians to gain some understanding of its weapons.

[Darth_Trethon]

Marah_Fayne wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I never destroy the Collector base because I'm not insanely suicidal and realize we'll need every bit of technological advancement we can get if we are to have the slightest hope of defeating the reapers. Sovereign alone decimated the combined fleets of the council races....I can't even imagine what hundreds and thousands of reapers will do if we aren't as prepared and armed with the highest tech possible.

Same question to you, Darth:  Do you believe that when I import my ME2 savegame into ME3 I won't be able to finish the game because I don't have the base?

Or am I just being too literal and think we're talking about a game...not a fantasy universe or something...

It's the immersion preference I suppose. I like to treat everything as "real" so that's the logic I use behind a lot of my choices. How big of an impact that choice will play in ME3 remains to be seen but I don't expect it will be given the merit it deserves out of a feeling they need to please everyone regardless of choices. Still it would benice to see them treat something from a logical point of view for once though I'm not holding my breath.

[Dave of Canada]

Marah_Fayne wrote...

So, you think that when I import my ME2 savegame into ME3 it's just going to say "!Sorry, you destroyed the Collector base, now you don't have the weapon you need to stop the Reapers.  Game over, would you like to start a new game?"

The future to Shep is uncertain, if you do the decision because you know you can still beat the Reapers in ME3 without it then you're using player knowledge for that decision and not putting yourself in Shep's shoes. Thereby, metagaming.

[Inverness Moon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marah_Fayne wrote...

So, you think that when I import my ME2 savegame into ME3 it's just going to say "!Sorry, you destroyed the Collector base, now you don't have the weapon you need to stop the Reapers.  Game over, would you like to start a new game?"

The future to Shep is uncertain, if you do the decision because you know you can still beat the Reapers in ME3 without it then you're using player knowledge for that decision and not putting yourself in Shep's shoes. Thereby, metagaming.

QFT. Not enough people put themselves in Shep's shoes when deciding what to do with the base. They're only concerned with the paragon option, or sticking it to TIM instead of worrying about the much greater threat, which are the reapers.

Even your squad mates question your decision. Oh they certainly trusted you and thought it was a good idea to blow up what could very well win you the war, but when you save it, nope. And when you do blow it up, they're all glad you stuck it to the Illusive Man. I just wanted to slap them all. Except Legion, I could never slap him. 

[Fishy]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marah_Fayne wrote...

So, you think that when I import my ME2 savegame into ME3 it's just going to say "!Sorry, you destroyed the Collector base, now you don't have the weapon you need to stop the Reapers.  Game over, would you like to start a new game?"

The future to Shep is uncertain, if you do the decision because you know you can still beat the Reapers in ME3 without it then you're using player knowledge for that decision and not putting yourself in Shep's shoes. Thereby, metagaming.

QFT. Not enough people put themselves in Shep's shoes when deciding what to do with the base. They're only concerned with the paragon option, or sticking it to TIM instead of worrying about the much greater threat, which are the reapers.

Even your squad mates question your decision. Oh they certainly trusted you and thought it was a good idea to blow up what could very well win you the war, but when you save it, nope. And when you do blow it up, they're all glad you stuck it to the Illusive Man. I just wanted to slap them all. Except Legion, I could never slap him. 

I'm certaintly metagaming because i would never work for Cerberus.It's forced metagaming!
So i made a anti-metagaming playthrough and played for 15 minutes!

[Dave of Canada]

Rhostadt wrote...

There's literally nothing to be gained from the Collector's base for the purpose of fighting the Reapers (now if you're pro-Cerberus that's another matter). It's full of tech that's already been mastered and *defeated* by the Reapers. In ME1 it's made pretty clear that one of the main purposes of the mass relays and Citadel is to control the technological development of the biological species, to make sure there's few, if any, surprises when the Reapers come calling.

The Reapers only giftwrap the Citadel / Omega / Mass Relays, everything else is to be used by the species who finds it and adapt it to their society. The Reapers never expected humanity to figure out how to defeat Sovereign, so they had to resort to plan B (The Collectors).

Reaper Tech from Sovereign assisted in the destruction of the Collectors, you have the Reaper IFF / Thannix Cannon and EDI. These were all reverse-engineered from Sovereigns remains (not much of it remained after it blew up).

Collector Tech is considered the best tech in the galaxy, winning it for a trade is essentially considered as happy / exciting as winning the lottery to the winner. The Reapers have never expected humanity to be able to get the Collector Base, now that we do have it we're capable of doing greater things than EDI / Thannix Cannon. If EDI / Thannix Cannon were made from scraps of a single reaper, having a factory (alongside the Collector tech as a side bonus) should give more chances for humanity to upgrade their tech with reverse engineering.

Blowing it up is only denying you the chance to upgrade your tech, knowing your enemy and how to fight back. Imagine the lives that could be saved if Cerberus can counter indoctrination? And that's a single thing they are capable of researching with the base intact.

It seems to me the only thing useful there, you end up with whether you destroyed the base or not (that data pad with the Reaper info).

You don't know that when you're making the choice,  though. You're surprised with Joker suddenly showing up and going "sup reaper info".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[didymos1120]

Jagri wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Lets try to control the Giant Plant ~Nearly everyone dies~
Lets try to control the Plant Thrall ~Nearly everyone dies~

'Why do so many people attribute these to Cerberus? They didn't have anything to do with those: the Thorian was an ExoGeni discovery, and Zhu's Hope was their little project.  The colony overrun by Creepers was an ExoGeni outpost. Cerberus just bought a handful of Creepers off them at some point to study.  We only ever see one, I believe.  It's in one of bases you raid while looking for Kahoku. 

Never said it was Cerberus... I said experiments that lead to many people dying... And ExoGeni could be a Cerberus business front.

Then why did you put them in the middle of a list of Cerberus' failures, in response to a discussion of Cerberus' failures, and not bother to indicate that they're almost certainly not Cerberus' failures?  You're right that you never explicitly said they were, but pretty much everything about the context sure as hell implied it.

Also: so Cerberus is buying stuff from itself and putting on big show of being all covert about it, but also somehow fails to make sure its employee (who doesn't know he's an employee) doesn't leave incriminating log entries about the purchase on a local computer system? Uh, yeah, I suppose it's possible, but it really just makes no damn sense at all and there's absolutely no evidence to support the idea.  Which means it's worthless. If I say there could be a teapot orbiting somewhere between Earth and Mars, it's not your task to prove it's not there.  It's my task to prove it is.  Until then, neither you nor anyone else is at all obliged to give a crap.

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[didymos1120]

Inverness Moon wrote...
I just wanted to slap them all. Except Legion, I could never slap him. 

It'd be unfair anyway.  Legion doesn't give a crap or say anything about TIM or Cerberus, but instead simply cautions you not to do anything too stupid with the base and hopes your species doesn't become dependent on it.

[didymos1120]

Shandepared wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

I don't really like the use of the term "success" for those cases, as it sort of makes the term meaningless and, to me, it's kind of just weaselly rhetoric.

Well we all have our subjective opinions, don't we? To me it's a success if the concept is proved viable. In the case of Jack, Overlord, and Grayson the goals that were set were ultimately reached.

The rachni I would actually say was a legitimate "failure" in the sense that it produced no positive results. The rachni are too hard to control. Obviously the rachni escaping containment is a major screw up, which is why I think this was Cerberus' worst project to date.

Yeah, I actually agree. Somewhat.  That should have said "all those cases".   I do consider Overlord a failure because it didn't produce an actual, usable "geth-control device", but it certainly did produce knowledge and there'll be plenty of data to analyze at the least.  Jack, on the other hand, I would count a success because she exists and is indeed a super-biotic (by human standards).  Grayson too, since the whole goal was just data-gathering anyway.  But like I said: a failure in the context of research isn't a bad thing.  It's not even rare: it's pretty much the norm. 

Not that I don't think there weren't mistakes made that allowed things to get out of control (I even think there are some mitigating factors in the mix too).  It's just that they're not blemishes on the research side of the record.  I really, really do not like the brutal methodologies that get used so often, but nonetheless things were learned.  Oddly, the rachni thing doesn't particularly bug me.  They really had no clue how smart they were and honestly thought they were dealing, more or less, with moderately intelligent animals. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:30 .

[Tocquevillain]

Inverness Moon wrote...
I think it is unrealistic that their only successes are ones that are necessary for you to be able to play the game: Project Lazarus, Normandy SR1 concept, Normandy SR2 construction, EDI.

Most of those things are not unrealistic. A new ship? An A.I.? They could just have easily stranded Shepard on a planet for ME2 and given her new tools developed by Cerberus to make the game interesting and then you might be saying the same thing. It's just a case of form following function.