3478 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Tocquevillain wrote...
Most of those things are not unrealistic.

Well, individually and in and of themselves they're not, but it is a bit convenient.  However, since this is a piece of narrative fiction, and a videogame to boot, that can be largely overlooked.  They've actually thrown in some stuff recently with the DLC that helps. A number of the weapons you get are results of successful R&D projects, or interesting modfications to off-the-shelf gear, and in Lair the Cerberus dossier lists a whole bunch of successful exploits over the years that have nothing to do with Shep.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

elmephd1 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

How is Harbinger able to communicate with the Collector General - and directly assume control of him - from all the way out in dark space?

In Mass Effect Retribution it's explained that all Reaper tech has quantum-entanglement communication as part of it, allowing real-time connections no matter where they are.

Does the connection still work? Does the quantum pair still give Harbinger access to the base? Can he broadcast indoctrination signals there from out in dark space? How much control does he have over the base's systems?

Indoctrination is a field effect. It's broadcast radius is limited to the source of the signal. It's not canned music you can put on the radio.

Harbinger's control of the base was dependent on being through the Collector General. If he could have destroyed the base rather than let it be captured, he would have.

Maybe, maybe not: UNC:  Derelict_Freighter

Those who kept the base will likely find out if Harbringer has any more control over it

[DanaScu]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

None of my Shepards trust Cerberus. One project turned out a success, so far; Lazarus. If you don't count everyone dying except two agents and Shepard.

Because that's the only successful operation you know of. You don't see TIM calling you in to go to facility X because they've successfully created a super weapon against the Geth or something, they call you in to deal with their mistakes. Almost all sidequests in ME1 were sent to deal with the Alliance's screw ups but those apparently don't make the Alliance incompetent.

So the biotics that took over that research facility were part of the Alliance? The biotic protestors that kidnapped hte senator were part of the Alliance? The biotics that were following Father Kyle were part of the Alliance [this did show that the Alliance negotiators were incompetent, and you do have to clean little problem up]? Yes, the Alliance has you running around doing their errands. Almost none of them are caused by the Alliance, however. I can think of only two [since I haven't played ME over recently I admit, I could be missing a few or several.] that could have been Alliance screwups. The rogue VI on the Moon, and the nuke they want you to disarm on the deep space probe..Being as that the Alliance, after the aformentioned Father Kyle incident, doesn't send any teams in ahead of you to screw things up worse, someone, probably Hackett, is at least competent enough to let you handle most things.  

Cerberus allegedly has only so many project running at one time to TIM can oversee everything. With the number of Cerberus projects you shut down, I think you pretty much got them all. So one or two "successes", or just projects that hadn't failed/imploded/self-destructed yet?

[AresXX7]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

elmephd1 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

How is Harbinger able to communicate with the Collector General - and directly assume control of him - from all the way out in dark space?

In Mass Effect Retribution it's explained that all Reaper tech has quantum-entanglement communication as part of it, allowing real-time connections no matter where they are.

Does the connection still work? Does the quantum pair still give Harbinger access to the base? Can he broadcast indoctrination signals there from out in dark space? How much control does he have over the base's systems?

Indoctrination is a field effect. It's broadcast radius is limited to the source of the signal. It's not canned music you can put on the radio.

Harbinger's control of the base was dependent on being through the Collector General. If he could have destroyed the base rather than let it be captured, he would have.

Just wanted to add a little sidenote to what  Dean_the_Young said.

The Reapers were able to control Grayson from dark space because he was injected with Reaper tech.
I would surmise the same could be said of the Collector General, or any Collector for that matter.

[Skyblade012]

Cerberus is specifically explained as having three cells currently. We know of at least two of them, Lazarus and Overlord (both specifically referred to as Cerberus cells in-game). Project Overlord has just been mentioned as a project, so it might not be the entirety of a cell on its own.



Regardless, back to the topic at hand, the Reaper IFF situation gives us all the info we need to avoid giving Cerberus the base. Cerberus knew about indoctrination and took no safeguards against it while grabbing the IFF. That gives me no faith that they will take similar precautions in the future, and given that something as simple as Dragon's Teeth can cause indoctrination, it is unlikely that, even freed of organics, there won't be something capable of indoctrinating their team left on the Collector base.

[DanaScu]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

None of my Shepards trust Cerberus. One project turned out a success, so far; Lazarus. If you don't count everyone dying except two agents and Shepard.

Because that's the only successful operation you know of. You don't see TIM calling you in to go to facility X because they've successfully created a super weapon against the Geth or something, they call you in to deal with their mistakes. Almost all sidequests in ME1 were sent to deal with the Alliance's screw ups but those apparently don't make the Alliance incompetent.

He has a point, but Cerberus screwups tend to be a bit bigger than the Alliance ones. Also, Cerberus has had many successes. They made armor for Shep. Guns for Shep. A ship for Shep. A helicopter thing for Shep. Shep. Thier track record is not as bad as it seems.

I will grant the Normandy 2. But the Turians were involved with the design, so Cerberus wasn't single-handedly working on it. None of my Shepards have ever worn the armor, so I have no idea how good it is; I seem to recall some people pointing out that the helmets can't be removed, even if Shepard is getting a drink at a bar. I guess drinking through your solid faceplate is badass. Guns...again, I don't use most of the Cerberus provided ones. I miss the Spectre gear and customizable upgrades. And personally I have suspicions that the hover tank is an attempt to get Shepard and his team killed without direct action on Cerberus's part. Fighting vehicles shouldn't have tissue paper armor. I was relieved to find out that Shepard didn't have to fight any thresher maws in that thing. If the mako got hit enough, you had a problem. A thresher maw looks at the hover tank and it would melt.

[AresXX7]

iakus wrote...

Maybe, maybe not: UNC:  Derelict_Freighter

Those who kept the base will likely find out if Harbringer has any more control over it

I see where you're going with this, but I would have to say there is a bigger difference with a base than an actual Reaper.

[Iakus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

iakus wrote...

1 True enough.  But what, save the Lazarus Program and EDI, have we actually seen of Cerberus successfully researching new tech?

Cerberus played a key part in the original construction of the Normandy, they've recreated the Normandy SR2 and there's a dozen projects going on at one time, when we're called in to deal with 1-2 of them that would mean the other ten are doing just fine.

EDIT: This doesn't include whatever their front companies are doing.

Actually, the Normandy was built by the Alliance and turians working together.  Cerberus, which was still Alliance at the time, only encouraged teh project to go forward.  Cerberus then swiped the schematics.  THe Normandy 2 is mainly a larger version of the Normandy 1.  With leather seats.

1-2 projects out of a dozen simply fail, that's one thing.  But if 1-2 projects goes into a spectacular meltdown with the entire team wiped out, base trashed, and the contryside infested with monsters, the other ten projects being  A-OK is not quite so comforting.  This is leaving aside the ethics of these programs too.

2 The rogue VI is the only example I can think of that the Alliance brought Shepard in in for a "tech gone wild" case.  And there were no fatalities that I recall.  Most of the other stuff the called Shep in for concerned pirates, terrorists, geth attacks, some splinter group called "Cerberus",

Most of the Alliance's problems aren't self caused, they screw up because they can't possibly do anything without Shepard.

They can't protect their scientists (they know what scientists are being targetted...)
They can't deal with a VI (that they screwed up).
They can't defend people from the Geth.
They can't deal with a Cult.
They can't deal with their probes.
They can't deal with their exploding-probes.
They can't deal with a hostage situation.

For a military group, they can't do anything without Shepard.

The Alliance being oddly dependant on Shepard is notable.  But as you said, the Alliance problems are generally not self-caused.  Cerberus, however, continues to touch the fire.

3 Mostly the knowledge Cerberus has gained seems to be composed of various ways of saying "that's fatal"

Project Overlord killed every operative except for Archer, while it was a disaster if you consider the deaths it's proven that Geth can be controlled and that future study with David could effectively have Geth under the control of Cerberus / Humanity.

Given what Legion has to say, that may or may not even be necessary.

The failure with the Rachni proved that the Rachni were sentient beings and not trained war hounds as Cerberus expected, while it wasn't much of a knowledge gain it did make Rachni one of their "DO NOT TARGET" list.

The fact that the rachni went to war with the Citadel a couple of millenia ago would also have proven that the rachni were sentient.  Bugs are people too!

Teltin facility's brutal research lead to Jack becoming one of the strongest biotics in the galaxy.

Leaving aside the morality of their methods (again)  they managed to produce a single, mentally unstable, extremely violent, though extremely powerful biotic.  I believe to this day she still gets a rush from violence and suffers from some sort of progressive  neural degeneration.  And oh yes, her fondest wish is to destroy Cerberus.

Cost:  A trashed facility, a bunch of dead scientists and guards, (no suprises here)  and a bunch of dead kids.  Cost/benefit analysis I'd say that was a very limited success

That's all the screw ups I can think off the top of my head... mmm...

UNC:_Dead_Scientists Corporal Toombs begs to disagree

UNC:_Colony_of_the_Dead Husks don't make good shock troops

[Casuist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why save the galaxy just to damn it the next day?

So you damn the galaxy now to the Reapers? TIM and Cerberus aren't a threat to us, nor is keeping the base. If they ever do become a threat, they won't be nearly as dangerous as the Reapers. You're blowing up a weapon that has no morality because the person (on your side) might pose a threat after the bigger threat is gone.

Personally, it's more because Cerberus can't be trusted not to damn the galaxy before the bigger threat is gone, that is, unless murdering alliance personnel, blowing up Quarian ships and setting loose random catastrophic experiments are on your Shepard's agenda. 

Making a broad statement... if your Shepard aims to mount an "all species stand united" effort against the Reapers, strengthening Cerberus is probably counterproductive.

If your Shepard believes Humanity and its resources will be the only path to success, then Cerberus may well be your best friend....

Neither of these are irrational positions, so enjoy them.

Modifié par Casuist, 14 septembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Says you.

Reaper tech they want you to use: Mass Relays, the Citadel and such.
Reaper tech they don't want you to use: Anything from the Collector Base.

More specifically: 

The Reapers want you to use their openly left technology that's so advanced you can't reverse it. They never want you to understand it: by the time a civilization is advanced enough to start cracking the mysteries (like the Prothean attempt to recreate Mass Relays), the Reapers invade.

They've never wanted you to study their own technology to understand it. The Reaper traps is based on being easy to use without being understood, not on understanding it.

I've always understood that train of thought, but I think it's naive to think that the Mass Relay network and eezo drives are the only traps Reapers set for organics. And even if they explicitly didn't want organics to learn how their stuff worked, organics will never, ever out-do Reapers (incredibly ancient, incredibly intelligent beings made up of millions or billions of other beings), least of all with a few years of research. It'd be like going against an enemy with a strong air force of F-22s or some such and saying "Hmm let's put all our rescources into making airplanes just like they did, starting with leather biplanes." Organics would be playing a game of catch-up they could never win; the only way to defeat the Reapers is to go "off the grid" to borrow the phrase. Organics need to investigate divergences in technology less or not influenced by Reaper tech. If you want a real-world example of a success story where a company used "disruptive" technlogy/strategy, you need not look further than Nintendo's success with the DS and Wii (and likely soon the 3DS).

Truthfully, I think I was doing TIM a favor by preventing him from investing in Reaper technology, forcing him to explore other avenues.

Modifié par Tony_Knightcrawler, 14 septembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[lovgreno]

Casuist wrote...

Personally, it's more because Cerberus can't be trusted not to damn the galaxy before the bigger threat is gone, that is, unless murdering alliance personnel, blowing up Quarian ships and setting loose random catastrophic experiments are on your Shepard's agenda. 

Making a broad statement... if your Shepard aims to mount an "all species stand united" effort against the Reapers, strengthening Cerberus is probably counterproductive.

If your Shepard believes Humanity and its resources will be the only path to success, then Cerberus may well be your best friend....

Neither of these are irrational positions, so enjoy them.

Yeah that about sums it up.

Personaly I think many spiecies working together stands a better chance to survive than just humanity alone (actualy just a incompetent minority of humanity called Cerberus). Especialy as at least three of the alien spiecies are stronger than humanity. Shepard may dislike aliens but she/he is mature enough to swallow his/her pride and ask for help.

But you know, this is just my personal opinion, not facts so choose whatever version of reality that suits your personality best.

[Zan Mura]

lovgreno wrote...

Yeah that about sums it up.

Personaly I think many spiecies working together stands a better chance to survive than just humanity alone (actualy just a incompetent minority of humanity called Cerberus). Especialy as at least three of the alien spiecies are stronger than humanity. Shepard may dislike aliens but she/he is mature enough to swallow his/her pride and ask for help.

But you know, this is just my personal opinion, not facts so choose whatever version of reality that suits your personality best.

To be fair, incompetent is the last thing Cerberus is. They're loads more competent than pretty much any other organization Shepard has run into. The problem is that they're too predictable with their dangerous and regularly backfiring projects. Cerberus constantly leaps before looking, and has a history of doing positively everything any other race or group would consider too dangerous to bother even trying (usually with good reason). Which while often teaches them something new, also as a rule tends to blow up in their faces.

With a collector base, based on Reaper technology, with a disabled Reaper embryo inside (and we've all seen what Reapers, even disabled ones, can do), the consequences of yet another disastrous failure for that danger-ignoring "let's rush in head first" attitude are potentially big enough to threaten the entire galaxy.

But as said, both opinions are viable. On the other hand, one may well argue that you cannot defeat the Reapers without some kind of real kickass ace in our sleeves. The odds are strongly stacked against us as is, so it's a completely viable opinion that you HAVE to take the risk with that base, because not even trying basically means we're forced to rely on some future discovery which may never come. In this respect, it's hard nto to confuse metagaming with what the characters actually know in the game. We KNOW Shepard will find another way to defeat the Reapers, we know the story will end happily. In reality, in the game, Shepard realises their chances are slim to none at best as it is.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Knightstar2001]

Sadly I thought saving the base was the paragon choice until I found out on the forums that saying screw you tim, I'm blowing it up wasn't renagade at all. On the plus side I now have two perfect import saves ready for ME3 where I chose to blow it up and in the other save it.

[Breakdown Boy]

In the ME novels we see that TIM will do anything, so giving him a collector base with reaper tech is not a good idea, those who think that the galaxy can't defeat the reapers without the base, well then we loose our humanity and the fate is the same as the reapers taking over, we become machines.

And plus, the collector base most certainly has the indoctrination capabilities of the reapers so any science team would just end up turning into husks anyway. Reaper tech is best studied once it's destroyed and in pieces, like sovereign.[/

Modifié par Breakdown Boy, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:46 .

[Breakdown Boy]

Double post

Modifié par Breakdown Boy, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Cerberus is specifically explained as having three cells currently. We know of at least two of them, Lazarus and Overlord (both specifically referred to as Cerberus cells in-game). Project Overlord has just been mentioned as a project, so it might not be the entirety of a cell on its own.

Regardless, back to the topic at hand, the Reaper IFF situation gives us all the info we need to avoid giving Cerberus the base. Cerberus knew about indoctrination and took no safeguards against it while grabbing the IFF. That gives me no faith that they will take similar precautions in the future, and given that something as simple as Dragon's Teeth can cause indoctrination, it is unlikely that, even freed of organics, there won't be something capable of indoctrinating their team left on the Collector base.

And the horrible, ruinous disaster on the derilect reaper was...?

Not taking safeguards was a choice Cerberus was willing to make. Haven't people in these last few pages bereted Cerberus for not taking on any risks themselves?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 septembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[Kavadas]

Breakdown Boy wrote...
...those who think that the galaxy can't defeat the reapers without the base, well then we loose our humanity and the fate is the same as the reapers taking over, we become machines.

I'd rather lose my humanity while preserving all sentient life than lose all sentient life while preserving my humanity.  People can second guess, start wars, elect new politicians, and prosecute the criminals after the threat has passed.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Says you.

[/quote]

Reaper tech they want you to use: Mass Relays, the Citadel and such.
Reaper tech they don't want you to use: Anything from the Collector Base.

[/quote]
More specifically: 

The Reapers want you to use their openly left technology that's so advanced you can't reverse it. They never want you to understand it: by the time a civilization is advanced enough to start cracking the mysteries (like the Prothean attempt to recreate Mass Relays), the Reapers invade.

They've never wanted you to study their own technology to understand it. The Reaper traps is based on being easy to use without being understood, not on understanding it.[/quote]

I've always understood that train of thought, but I think it's naive to think that the Mass Relay network and eezo drives are the only traps Reapers set for organics. And even if they explicitly didn't want organics to learn how their stuff worked, organics will never, ever out-do Reapers (incredibly ancient, incredibly intelligent beings made up of millions or billions of other beings), least of all with a few years of research. It'd be like going against an enemy with a strong air force of F-22s or some such and saying "Hmm let's put all our rescources into making airplanes just like they did, starting with leather biplanes." Organics would be playing a game of catch-up they could never win; the only way to defeat the Reapers is to go "off the grid" to borrow the phrase. Organics need to investigate divergences in technology less or not influenced by Reaper tech. If you want a real-world example of a success story where a company used "disruptive" technlogy/strategy, you need not look further than Nintendo's success with the DS and Wii (and likely soon the 3DS).[/quote]
[/quote]For one thing, technology doesn't work like that. 'Reaper tech' isn't some narrow band of knowledge, it's encompassed everything from the current galactic standard to the Leviathan of Dis bio-ships to Prothean mind-beacons. You aren't going to magically 'diversify' from a Reaper-foreseen point of technology from a Reaper foreseen point of technology.. You know, us. Right now in the ME universe.

It's like trying to climb a hill while someone on the top is rolling boulders down on you, and then thinking if you walk sideways you're any closer to the top.

[quote]
Truthfully, I think I was doing TIM a favor by preventing him from investing in Reaper technology, forcing him to explore other avenues.[/quote]Avenues which, given the precise forward-planning of the Collectors (always technology a decade in advance of the galaxy's natural growth) and the future mass-reverse engineering of the Reaper tech during and following the Reaper war, are avenues exactly the same, only too late to help anyone.

[Skyblade012]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

Cerberus is specifically explained as having three cells currently. We know of at least two of them, Lazarus and Overlord (both specifically referred to as Cerberus cells in-game). Project Overlord has just been mentioned as a project, so it might not be the entirety of a cell on its own.

Regardless, back to the topic at hand, the Reaper IFF situation gives us all the info we need to avoid giving Cerberus the base. Cerberus knew about indoctrination and took no safeguards against it while grabbing the IFF. That gives me no faith that they will take similar precautions in the future, and given that something as simple as Dragon's Teeth can cause indoctrination, it is unlikely that, even freed of organics, there won't be something capable of indoctrinating their team left on the Collector base.

And the horrible, ruinous disaster on the derilect reaper was...?

Not taking safeguards was a choice Cerberus was willing to make. Haven't people in these last few pages bereted Cerberus for not taking on any risks themselves?

Did you miss the entire crew getting indoctrinated, transformed into husks, and trying to kill us?

When a simple "oh, hey, a couple of the crew are showing signs of indoctrination, time to head out and call in a different team" would have saved the whole project?  But, no, Cerberus didn't even mention to them "oh, hey, and be careful if you hear a buzzing in your ears or your men start acting strangely".

Cerberus would "lose contact" with whatever team they sent to the Collector Base in a few weeks, and then any that got there afterwards would have to deal with whatever the indoctrination forced them to do.  If it just turned them into husks, they'd be lucky.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The problem with following Reaper tech is that it is exactly what the reapers want us to do. Granted they might not have expected us to reach certain points within this branch of tech, but tehy have already mastered it and surely have a counter for everything we might come up with. It is after all a technology they've had millions of years to master.

Following the Reaper tech is not neccesarily wise. For all we know the Reapers planned on the base eventually being found (why else would they ever bother with defenses?), and we might be walking right into a trap. Finding our own path is better than following a path the reapers will be able to predict with pinpoint accuracy.

[nelly21]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with following Reaper tech is that it is exactly what the reapers want us to do. Granted they might not have expected us to reach certain points within this branch of tech, but tehy have already mastered it and surely have a counter for everything we might come up with. It is after all a technology they've had millions of years to master.
Following the Reaper tech is not neccesarily wise. For all we know the Reapers planned on the base eventually being found (why else would they ever bother with defenses?), and we might be walking right into a trap. Finding our own path is better than following a path the reapers will be able to predict with pinpoint accuracy.

The defenses were minor. That is why a team of 13 people were able to kill the Collectors and get to the base in the first place. They never expected anyone to get past the debris field with the Oculus drones, let alone take out the flagship. If the Reapers wanted us to have the base, why wouldn't they just give to us?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marah_Fayne wrote...

So, you think that when I import my ME2 savegame into ME3 it's just going to say "!Sorry, you destroyed the Collector base, now you don't have the weapon you need to stop the Reapers.  Game over, would you like to start a new game?"

The future to Shep is uncertain, if you do the decision because you know you can still beat the Reapers in ME3 without it then you're using player knowledge for that decision and not putting yourself in Shep's shoes. Thereby, metagaming.

For me, this is one of those situations in which "being in Shep's head" and "metagaming" both tell me to blow the damn base up.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Breakdown Boy wrote...
And plus, the collector base most certainly has the indoctrination capabilities of the reapers so any science team would just end up turning into husks anyway. Reaper tech is best studied once it's destroyed and in pieces, like sovereign.

^ This.

[Inverness Moon]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

In the ME novels we see that TIM will do anything, so giving him a collector base with reaper tech is not a good idea, those who think that the galaxy can't defeat the reapers without the base, well then we loose our humanity and the fate is the same as the reapers taking over, we become machines.

And plus, the collector base most certainly has the indoctrination capabilities of the reapers so any science team would just end up turning into husks anyway. Reaper tech is best studied once it's destroyed and in pieces, like sovereign.[/

I agree with Kavadas. I'd rather loose my humanity and save everyone in the process instead of taking my humanity with me into my grave along with every other sentient in the galaxy.

Plus, you don't know if the collector base can indoctrinate people. We've only observed that on actual reapers so far, the collector base can apparently build them, but it is not a reaper. An indoctrination field is not necessary because the collectors are engineered, there is nothing to indoctrinate. And if they never expected anyone to get to the base, they probably would not have installed whatever causes indoctrination.

Edit: And to add to that, since the collector base can build reapers, it will probably have information on how indoctrination works and how to block it. Don't forget the role that indoctrination played in the extinction of the protheans.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:57 .