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[upsettingshorts]

The best possible tech to come out of acquiring Reaper/Collector stuff is information warfare and countermeasures.



Stuff to disable the Reapers or prevent them from attacking or indoctrinating people. Not weapons or armor or stuff like that.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not trying to say they want us to have it. Just saying they've probably already considered the possibility that we might get it, and taken neccesary precautions. They've had hundreds of thousands of years to plan this, and I really doubt they've spent all that time on plan A (Sovereign) and B (Collectors).

Plan A was Sovereign sending a signal to activate the Citadel relay.

Plan B was Sovereign attempting to attack the Citadel and manually activate it.

Plan C was the Collectors building a human Reaper and doing... something.

The Reapers are now on plan D. Personally I think it is unlikely they have the resources in dark space to make any elaborate plans or alterations to themselves. Without completely rebuilding themselves I don't think there is much they can do to counter our capture of the Collector base. The base will give us knowledge of how Reapers are built, how they work, and how their weapons and defensive systems work. This will give us the direction we need to circumvent these technologies.

What can the Reapers do about it? As I said they'd need to completely redesign themselves.

When all else fails, go to court. 

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 14 septembre 2010 - 10:35 .

[AresXX7]

Shandepared wrote...

General User wrote...

I am firmly of the opinion that but the Council races (including the Alliance) already have the technology to take on the Reapers in direct combat, 5th Fleet proved that much at the Battle of the Citadel.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. If the 5th fleet's battle against the rest of the Reapers goes as well as their fight against Sovereign we are going to wind up running out of fleets far faster than we will Reapers.

I also have to agree with Shand on this, but for a different reason. The 5th fleet did not actually destroy Sovereign, at least not in the sense you're implying. Sovereign's shields were more than capable of withstanding their attack(s). Because it continued to remain in control of Saren's body (via implants) without releasing itself from the connection, before the avatar was destroyed,  Sovereign "died" along with it's destruction. That's why, I believe, we see the Reaper's body going limp when the shields lower.
It is also why Harbinger 'released control' right before either the base blew up, or the EMP blast reached the Collector General, to avoid the same fate as Sovereign. 

[Heldenbrand]

Primarily because it seemed that Cerberus would be in control of the technology, not the Alliance, not the Council - given that the Illusive Man had already betrayed/lied to Shepherd several times over, I had no reason to believe he would have benign intentions with the Collector tech. Besides, consider that a single small ship, the Normandy, could be upgraded to destroy the main Collector vessel. If that Collector vessel could be destroyed by such a comparatively small vessel there likely isn't anything potentially useful in terms of weapons, shielding or armor tech to be found.



To me, the more promising leads would be the Reaper where you locate Legion. Trying to uncover how it was destroyed, with what weapons and focus upon it as a salvage operation. As opposed to, yanno, creating a blockade around the Omega 4 relay, destroying whatever vessels emerge from it. Without more humans the Collectors never could have finished the Reaper, they only seemed to have one ship; destroy it, destroy or cripple the Omega 4 relay.. isolate the Collectors. Focus on the Reaper husk instead of destroying it just for the IFF.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Shandepared wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Unless Bioware is going to go full-out psionic powers crap, the readings taken by the team on the derelict Reaper, the Ccollector base, in the abandoned mine, and in other locations should be enough to figure out the mechanism of indoctrination.

We need more than just non-existent readings. The husks from the derelict Reaper might provide some insights but none of those other locations left any physical evidence behind (other than maybe more husks). If the Collector base poses an indoctrination effect then surely it must be because it has intact indoctrination technology onboard, or the schematics to construct such. This is invaluable and above all it is necessary.

If indoctrination is technological and can occur without physical contact, as appears to be the case, then there has to be an active and detectable mechanism -- radiation, aggresive nanomachines in the air, something.  The abandoned mine in one of the N7 assignments, full of husks, had an active indoctrination device running.  The Reaper corpse indoctrinated and husked the Cerberus crew.  And those are just two examples of fixed locations at which indoctrination is known to have taken place.  Mordin is able to compare the changes in the Protheans that made them Collectors to the process of indoctrination, so he knows at least enough about it to do that.

If there's one aspect of the Reapers that can be figured out without the Collector base, it's indoctrination.

[Silvanend]

If you seriously trust the Illusive Man to use the technology ONLY against the reaper threat, you place your trust in other to casually, he's obviously gonna use the technology to benefit himself, as seen from the wicked grin spread across his face when you hand it over. I played full renegade, but I'll be damned if I let that tyrant get his hands on technology this powerful. I like Illusive Man as a character, but my Shepard, does not trust him.

[Dave of Canada]

Heldenbrand wrote...

given that the Illusive Man had already betrayed/lied to Shepherd several times over,

When? He only did this once (that I remember) and that was because he didn't want to tip off the Collectors.

[Super ._. Shepard]

he also does a evil smile at the end

[Dave of Canada]

Silvanend wrote...

If you seriously trust the Illusive Man to use the technology ONLY against the reaper threat, you place your trust in other to casually, he's obviously gonna use the technology to benefit himself, as seen from the wicked grin spread across his face when you hand it over.

He's not a moron, he won't use it to fight the aliens or something until the Reaper threat is gone. You either keep the base, get all the advantages of it and such or blow it up and risk the destruction of the entire galaxy because of you don't trust the guy.

If the galaxy is to fall, for me it won't be because Shepard didn't trust TIM.

Edit: Also you're metagaming the decision because TIM smiles. Does that sound reasonable or logical?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:09 .

[Super ._. Shepard]

i chose to keep the base because of the tech

[Heldenbrand]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Heldenbrand wrote...

given that the Illusive Man had already betrayed/lied to Shepherd several times over,

When? He only did this once (that I remember) and that was because he didn't want to tip off the Collectors.

Informing the Alliance that Shepherd was working with Cerberus to get Ashley on Horizon, I consider that essentially a betrayal and putting human lives at risk, especially as a Paragon Shepherd.  Essentially if he had warned the Alliance of the habits of the Collectors in how they take planets, as soon as communications went down he could have, with his level of contacts, had a large number of warships in the area to destroy or cripple the Collector vessel especially when it already landed.

The episode of the Collector ship and the turian vessel when you first board the Collector.

I suppose these are likely subjective if you are a Renegade Shepherd and believe in the sacrifice of a few for the greater good, but as a Paragon there is seemingly no reason to believe Cerberus would do anything for the benefit of all.  Especially if you take into consideration their actions during the first game, such as murdering an Alliance admiral, using the Thorian creeper as well as the rachni; definitely had no faith in them.  Had it been a joint Council/Alliance research operation I may have been more inclined. 

[upsettingshorts]

How is the smile evil? Shepard smirks slyly at the end of Mass Effect 1 after he climbs from the rubble in the Citadel Tower.

Things are going well, no reason not to smile.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[Kyneris]

If I could give the base to the Council or the Alliance, I would but there is no way in H3LL that I'm gonna give it to Cerberus. Cerberus is a threat to the galaxy and needs to be dismantled, no way I'm going to empower them with advanced technology.

[upsettingshorts]

Actually, according to Mass Effect 2 the Alliance and Council's inactivity is a threat to the galaxy. You know, while Cerberus is actively trying to save it.

Reasonable people can argue about Cerberus' ultimate goals post-Reaper invasion, but to say they are a threat to the galaxy is to willfully disregard the plot of Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[ZoSo159]

file:///C:/Users/Jerry/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.pngWhen you look at the Illusive mans eyes they are all weird and he is a jerk.  I mean look at other game charicters with glowing eyes like Saren or G-man from Half life they are evil so I don't want to trust the Illusive man if he might be part of that club.

[didymos1120]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

How is the smile evil? Shepard smirks slyly at the end of Mass Effect 1 after he climbs from the rubble in the Citadel Tower.

Things are going well, no reason not to smile.

You have to admit, this is pretty sinister looking:



And I don't think that it's accidental on Bioware's part.  Still not a valid in-game reason, because Shep can't see this.

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[upsettingshorts]

The most sinister smile in the game is any time FemShep is sexually harassing Jacob.

Just  sayin'.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Heldenbrand]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Actually, according to Mass Effect 2 the Alliance and Council's inactivity is a threat to the galaxy. You know, while Cerberus is actively trying to save it.

Reasonable people can argue about Cerberus' ultimate goals post-Reaper invasion, but to say they are a threat to the galaxy is to willfully disregard the plot of Mass Effect 2.

Effectively Cerberus is not concerned about saving the galaxy, only humanity; if the two happen to coincide I cannot believe that Cerberus would be interested.  For instance if the Collectors had been abducting only Turian colonies would they have been as interested in hunting them down?  

Yes, the Council and the Alliance are both short sighted; that is the problem with any sort of bureaucratic government.  That is the basis of the moral trouble in Mass Effect 2.  Siding with a terrorist organization because their views happen to coincide with yours and relying upon each other to meet a goal.  It isn't entirely unlike us allying with communist USSR to defeat the ****'s.  They ain't the good guys, but enemy of my enemy.

Plus, lets face it... no matter how hard Ceberus tries they cannot defeat a full fledged Reaper invasion on their own.  They will need the Council, the Alliance, and countless other races to all work together.  Their goals should be to bring the threat of the Reapers to reality and expose them publically.  Hiding the Reaper husk from the Council and the Alliance prevented huge amounts of potential research and awareness amongst the governments that the Reapers are a threat that goes beyond the Geth.


Edit:  Really, we're censoring a certain facist regime?

Modifié par Heldenbrand, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[stewie1974]

AriesXX7 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

General User wrote...

I am firmly of the opinion that but the Council races (including the Alliance) already have the technology to take on the Reapers in direct combat, 5th Fleet proved that much at the Battle of the Citadel.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. If the 5th fleet's battle against the rest of the Reapers goes as well as their fight against Sovereign we are going to wind up running out of fleets far faster than we will Reapers.

I also have to agree with Shand on this, but for a different reason. The 5th fleet did not actually destroy Sovereign, at least not in the sense you're implying. Sovereign's shields were more than capable of withstanding their attack(s). Because it continued to remain in control of Saren's body (via implants) without releasing itself from the connection, before the avatar was destroyed,  Sovereign "died" along with it's destruction. That's why, I believe, we see the Reaper's body going limp when the shields lower.
It is also why Harbinger 'released control' right before either the base blew up, or the EMP blast reached the Collector General, to avoid the same fate as Sovereign. 

Hmmm... I've killed harbringer loads of times before he's "released" control of the drone he's taken over....
Prehaps it caused it's sheilds to fail for a few oppurtunistic moments? Doubt you can actually "kill" a reaper when it's possessing a body...but killing the body, might cause a "momentary shock" to the system that can be exploited..

Modifié par stewie1974, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Casuist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Heldenbrand wrote...

given that the Illusive Man had already betrayed/lied to Shepherd several times over,

When? He only did this once (that I remember) and that was because he didn't want to tip off the Collectors.

- Claims Liara is working for the Shadow Broker
- Preemptively informs the citadel species of Shepard's involvement with Cerberus
- Information seeding regarding Horizon and Virmire survivor
- Fails to inform Shepard about false turian distress signal
- Is at least somewhat aware of the collectors-as-enemy before Freedom's Progress
- Conceals interest in preserving Collector station until very end

TIM is quite comfortable with hiding information or outright misleading Shepard to suit an agenda, as well as contriving circumstances at the beginning of the game where Shepard is forced to rely upon and work with Cerberus . 

[didymos1120]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The most sinister smile in the game is any time FemShep is sexually harassing Jacob.

Just  sayin'.

Agreed.

[didymos1120]

stewie1974 wrote...

Hmmm... I've killed harbringer loads of times before he's "released" control of the drone he's taken over....
Prehaps it caused it's sheilds to fail for a few oppurtunistic moments? Doubt you can actually "kill" a reaper when it's possessing a body...but killing the body, might cause a "momentary shock" to the system that can be exploited..

I put it down to Collectors being fully customized for remote manipulation, whereas Saren was a bit a of a  last-minute rush-job.  He was obviously still not "done" as he was capable of resisting enough to allow him to shoot himself.

[General User]

AriesXX7 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

General User wrote...

I am firmly of the opinion that but the Council races (including the Alliance) already have the technology to take on the Reapers in direct combat, 5th Fleet proved that much at the Battle of the Citadel.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. If the 5th fleet's battle against the rest of the Reapers goes as well as their fight against Sovereign we are going to wind up running out of fleets far faster than we will Reapers.

I also have to agree with Shand on this, but for a different reason. The 5th fleet did not actually destroy Sovereign, at least not in the sense you're implying. Sovereign's shields were more than capable of withstanding their attack(s). Because it continued to remain in control of Saren's body (via implants) without releasing itself from the connection, before the avatar was destroyed,  Sovereign "died" along with it's destruction. That's why, I believe, we see the Reaper's body going limp when the shields lower.
It is also why Harbinger 'released control' right before either the base blew up, or the EMP blast reached the Collector General, to avoid the same fate as Sovereign. 

You're absolutely right, it was the disruption of control from Shepard taking out robo-zombo-Saren, that brought down Sovereigns barriers long enough for 5th Fleet to take him out. Hmmm.
 
I guess I have to echo a post Upsettingshorts made about how the most useful technology obtainable would have nothing to do with weapons or shields, but rather insight into how indoctrination and the whole “assuming control” business works (with collectors and with Saren). 
 
Here’s what I’m mulling over: did killing robo-zombo-Saren kill Sovereign or just disrupt him sufficiently to drop his barriers? Would Harbinger have been “killed” if he hadn’t released control in time? If you’re reading the Cerberus Daily News, following the deal with the AI ghost ship and such, you may recall how an organic mind can “plug into” the virtual world, but if the mind stays too long or is removed too quickly the person suffers serious neurological damage. This is how I tend to think of the “assuming control” thing the Reapers do, a capability they have but wouldn’t necessarily over use for fear of what could go wrong.
 
I’m not sure I can follow you all the way to the point that killing a Reapers avatar will necessarily kills the Reaper, though it is true that Harbinger does release control of collectors before they die. It just seems odd that a being which has a distributed consciousness (We are each a nation…blah, blah, blah) would be so put out of sorts by the destruction of a single avatar. Unless of course, blinded by rage at this annoying chap (or chapette) Shepard, Sovereign “puts all of himself into” one avatar.
 
Ironically blowing up the base may mean such questions will never get answered.  Drag.
 
I freely admit a stong pro-Hackett bias on my part.  Here’s something to consider, the Battle of the Citadel was fought in the heart of what is essentially a friendly metropolis, it is not inconceivable that 5th fleet pulled a few of its punches, nukes spring immediately to mind but ay exotic weapon system utilizing radiation would have to be strictly a last resort. And the Destiny Ascension never got a chance to hit Sovereign with its vaunted main gun. This is more likely to have been due to damage (dealt by smaller vessels) or to the fact that the target would have been the presidium.  
 
It all seems a bit inconsistent though, 5th fleet couldn’t take out Sovereign until Shepard killed the avatar, but the Normandy alone was successful against the Collector Cruiser, which would presumably have been decently equipped given how important it was to the Reapers. Hmmm.
 
Thoughts anyone?  I wish to build a consensus.  Does our side NEED collector base tech to win?  I say no.

Imagine, Legion goes through a 1,183 member chat room every time he wants to blink, that's something to ponder.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Collector Base is not needed in the same sense that the Native Americans didn't need firearms to resist European colonizers. With enough numbers and arrows and maybe a few of those European horses...

[Heldenbrand]

My belief is that the Collector base is far less useful as compared to the Reaper derelict they destroyed to retrieve the IFF. It seemed moderately well preserved and with better safety precautions to avoid indoctrination (limited exposure, VI controlled robotics) they could have uncovered everything about it in a controlled fashion. Armor. Weapons. AI core. Given that the Collectors could only move through the Omega 4 relay, it seems feasible it could have been used as a choke point to isolate/destroy their vessel even using Shepherd as bait.



The loss of the derelict was far more tragic, imo.