3478 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

So is the Alliance and so are the Council.



As a result, the fact incompetence is not only rampant but commonplace I hardly find it appropriate to hold it against Cerberus.



At least, in their case in ME2, they are actively trying to prevent the eradication of all advanced life and no-one else is. They do not get enough credit for this on these boards, especially considering how many opportunities ME2 takes to hammer this idea home to the player.

[Iakus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think the crux of the issue is that Bioware can't decide what Renegade means.

Is it doing bad-ass things because they are cool?  Like pushing that merc out the window.
Is it being a selfish megalomaniac?  Like cynically murdering the Council (bottom option) in ME1.
Is it being purely rational and expedient at the cost of ethics?  Like not sparing the life of that merc in Samara's recruitment mission.
Is it simply an issue of impatience?  Like pulling a gun on someone to get them to talk.

The reason this is a problem is that a lot of the decisions fall under the purely rational and expedient label.  These are choices even people who want to be the good guy - and think of themselves as good guys - will still make given the right set of circumstances.  To never have them work out, to never see that adherence to rational self-interest pay off, it's totally frustrating. 

My problem with it has always been that it makes being a Paragon easy.  The Paragon choices that offer bad people second chances, take heavy risks (the priiiiize... couldn't resist), or distribute mercy like it's going out of style never backfires.  There's never a time when a Shepard making a Paragon decision has cause to look back and say that in hindsight their decision was - while it may have been honest and genuine - wrong.

That's getting way into metagaming, but at some point it starts effecting future playthroughs.  Why make Renegade choices if I know the Paragon one is always going to work out (see "Concentrate on Sovereign" middle choice at the end of ME1)?  It makes the Paragon choice too easy.  Being the good guy should be harder.  That's part of what makes good guys admirable.

I got the impression that originally at least, paragon andd renegade were less about morality and more about style.

"Paragon" meant working within the system whenever possible.  "By the book" protect the innocent, be a real "law and order" type of person.

Meanwhile, a "renegade" as little use for rules.  Results are what really count.  "whatever it takes" is more their motto, keeping an eye on the big picture.  Collateral damage is acceptable if the job gets done.

Somewhere along the line, though Paragon became "Paladin" and renegade became "Just keep him pointed at the bad guys and away from us"

[Casuist]

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Casuist wrote...

...investigating reaper tech and indoctrination is not dependent upon preserving the base. If at some level the "renegade" argument in this thread boils down to "we're all gonna die, WE'RE GONNA DIE if you don't do anything you possibly can!!!"[/quote]

... but how is that not a valid argument? If you don't do everything you can, you're risking the entire galaxy being destroyed.
[/quote]

Stating that every possible avenue is needed is true... invoking panic to justify a particular choice (keeping the base) as the only necessary counter to the rational reasons posed to destroy it is not.

[quote] 
[quote]- The Collector Base is a potentially risky thing to investigate[/quote]How so?
[/quote]

Ancient construct for controlling and maintaining a slave race.

[quote]
[quote]- Cerberus is an irresponsible custodian of such technology[/quote]
EDI says otherwise.
[/quote]

As TIM would say, "the facts lie with me."

[quote]
[quote] in a manner that could as easily compromise galactic security as easily as it could help[/quote]
You're assuming TIM and Cerberus are morons
[/quote]

Well... I know that some of them are morons.

[quote]
and will actually attack the Aliens before the Reaper threat is dealt with.
[/quote]

See ME: Ascension.

[quote]
Cerberus is anti-alien but their studies (screw-ups as people call it) often involve in protecting humanity and such,
you've yet to see them work on an anti-alien plague because they know the threat the Reapers represent unlike everybody else in the galaxy.
[/quote]

That is neither wholly accurate (there are others that understand the threat) nor a permanent state of affairs (more know and will become aware with time... particularly with the Shadow Broker's network at hand.

[quote]- There are other means of investigating reaper tech
[/quote]

[quote]
Like what? Examining the Sovereign salvage? They've already done that and it yielded in amazing progress for tech upgrades,
[/quote]

And I doubt they're finished... nor have we finished analyzing data from the derelict reaper, from the remnants of the collector base (or information taken from it and the collector ship before their destruction), from the citadel, from the scattered reaper tech that has the unfortunate tendency of flinging husks at us...

[quote]
the Collector Base is a thousand times better than this
[/quote]

No real basis for this claim.

[didymos1120]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Whereas the Renegade choices?  Either make Shepard out to be a reprehensible jerk (stronger term banned on forum) or remove content from the game entirely. 

OK, I'm trying to think of how they could avoid that given that the instances of this involve people getting killed.  You personally remove them, so....

And really, there aren't a whole lot of cases where you get nothing at all.  Usually, you get someone or something else.  I'm actually having trouble thinking of examples.  There's Rana Thanoptis.  Kill her and you get an empty room.  Kill Fist (which can be done deliberately) and he doesn't whine at you.  Kill Helena Blake and she's not in Afterlife either (this one's not really the renegade option, though.  The real one is intimidating her into doing what you want).  Kill the rachni queen and no rachni rep appears.  That's  all I can think of right now.   Oh, wait: Gianna.  If you get her and Anoleis to kill each other, you miss that sidequest.  Ok, now I'm tapped out.

[upsettingshorts]

A cheap and easy one would be that if you didn't choose the Renegade interrupt to shoot that Eclipse merc in Samara's recruitment mission, she'd show up and flank you during the boss fight at the end.

It's not so much about adding rewards to Renegade options, but adding negative consequences to some Paragon options. Because so far, there are none.

Though a possible Renegade bonus would be that if you don't keep the Collector Base, more people die in the actual fight against the Reapers due to a lack of <plot device>.  Maybe TIM turns out as bad as people say he might, but lots of people die as a result of not being as prepared for the Reapers as they could have been.  A speculative example, but it would make sense.

Or if you chose to save the Destiny Ascension in Mass Effect 1 the Alliance fleet loses a great deal of firepower, taking longer to kill Sovereign, leading to a significantly increased level of collateral damage to the Citadel.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Casuist]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So is the Alliance and so are the Council.

As a result, the fact incompetence is not only rampant but commonplace I hardly find it appropriate to hold it against Cerberus.

At least, in their case in ME2, they are actively trying to prevent the eradication of all advanced life and no-one else is. They do not get enough credit for this on these boards, especially considering how many opportunities ME2 takes to hammer this idea home to the player.

Considering all our Shepards went along with the story and cooperated with Cerberus (even the Sole Survivors) methinks we give them enough credit. Granted, we didn't have much of a choice, but there you have it.

But then... most "paragons" seem to admit keeping the base is rational if risky - a level of circumspection that would really benefit the community if universally adopted.

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...

- Escape of Rachni
- a fairly clumsy massacre of Alliance marines and murder of Kahoku leading to Shepard's involvement in ME1
- Teltin facility
- Overlord
- Derelict reaper (you're going in without even the slightest bit of precaution that Indoctrination still might be in effect?)
- Retribution (the experiment on Grayson is idiotic both in the lack of obvious safeguards (put a collar around his neck, plant a failsafe in his chest... ANYTHING other than simply making an extremely dangerous, powerful being and locking him in a room) and the ridiculous aggressiveness of the testing in the first place). Beyond that, choosing Grayson as a target out of spite when he's holding a considerable amount of information about the organization as a threat over your head is pretty idiotic.

Cerberus is frequently incompetent... or "breathtakingly and needlessly irresponsible" if you prefer.

You're ignoring the other side of the coin.

1. We have a greater understanding of the rachni now.
2. Kahokou was covered up really well unless you play paragon Shep and turn him in rather than killing him or Toombs.
3.  Amoral sure. However, judging by Jack, I'm also sure they got a lot of info on increasing the biotic potential of humanity too.
4. Derelect Reaper-Did they not leave the IFF for you neatly on the table? Would you have even been able to retrieve it without their legwork and make it out of the ship in time?
5. Sure lots of people died, but at the same time, the understanding of the geth increased exponentially. We know now for certain that they can be controlled. Maybe if Archer's brother stays, the process can be pefected. Either way, tons of data was gained.
6. As for Grayson. Uhm, if the turians didn't attack, and then released him without any precautions of their own, even though something was obviously wrong with him, then none of this mess would have happened.

As I said above, failures does not equal  failure in gaining knowlegde or intelligence. Useful, possibly even vital knowledge can be gleaned even in disasters.

Modifié par mosor, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:26 .

[Casuist]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

A cheap and easy one would be that if you didn't choose the Renegade interrupt to shoot that Eclipse merc in Samara's recruitment mission, she'd show up and flank you during the boss fight at the end.

It's not so much about adding rewards to Renegade options, but adding negative consequences to some Paragon options. Because so far, there are none.

... apart from some dissimilarities in content, there aren't any significant negative consequences for either moral approach in the game as far as I'm aware... which is probably as it should be. Neither "paragon" nor "renegade" are the "right" way of playing "but thinking makes it so." 

[upsettingshorts]

Casuist wrote...
... apart from some dissimilarities in content, there aren't any significant negative consequences for either moral approach in the game as far as I'm aware...

Sure there is.  There's a better post that responds to this that I didn't type, but here it is:
( I saved it because I knew I'd want to link to it )

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tom and Anthony go to the local gamestop, they've looked over the game selection and happen to see the Mass Effect series. Both of them decide that it looks like a good game, they've never played it before nor have they watched a video of it but they've heard good things.

Tom decides that he wants to be a Paragon due to blue being his prefered color, Anthony picks Renegade dueto red being his prefered color and they meet each afternoon to discusstheir experiences playing Mass Effect on the opposite side of the spectrum. Tom and Anthony both play Male Shepard Soldiers with the custom face.

Tom explains to Anthony the wonderous adventures he's had through Noveria with his lover Ashley and friend Garrus, Tom eventually explains that he was worried when the big decision came up, explained to Anthony that he didn't trust the Rachni Queen and he's fearful that she just lied to him to escape. Anthony explains that he burned her after hearing of all the trouble they caused in the galaxy years before. Both Tom and Anthony enjoy the game, Tom is worried about the Rachni Queen.

*WEEKS LATER*

Tom runs up to Anthony andtells him that the Rachni Queen talked to him in Mass Effect 2, Anthonyraises an eyebrow and is curious because he didn't recieve a mention ofanything for killing her. Tom explains how the Rachni Queen is going tohelp him against the Reapers! Tom is excited that his choice imported and being worried for letting the Rachni Queen go was for nothing. Tom is giddy and awaits Mass Effect 3 to see the Rachni assist him, Anthony is disappointed that killing her wasn't mentioned at all. Anthony shrugs.

*WEEKS BEFORE*

Anthonyapproaches Tom and asks him what he did to Shiala on Feros, Tom explains in detail that he decided to let her go due to feeling like he could trust her. Anthony explained that he didn't trust Shiala due to her ties with Saren, he killed her and said it's better for the colony.

*WEEKS LATER*

Tomcalls Anthony and mocks him, Anthony is wondering what is going on. Tomexplains in great detail how Shiala approached him and told him everything about how she was helping the colonists, Anthony was shocked that Saren's follower would do something like that. Tom then explained once more that Shiala flirted with Shepard. Anthony put down the phone and let out a few swear words as he looks upon the nameless colonist
that seeks his attention.

*WEEKS BEFORE*

After having finally beating the game, Anthony and Tom talk over how amazing the ending was and how they can't wait to play the sequel. Tom mentions thathe felt like a hero and champion of all humanity as the Council was rescued and that he represents everything that is good with humanity. Anthony was confused that his decision to focus on sovereign instead yielded in a different outcome, he explained how humanity took over and that he's surprised the difficulty for Sovereign remained the exact same.

*WEEKS LATER*

Anthony furiously stomps his feet intoTom's room, Tom looks back at Anthony and asks him what's up. Anthony explains he saved the entire universe and nobody believes him, instead the Council ignores him anyways and now he's hated by almost every alienhe encounters in the game. Tom explains that he shares the pain, Anthony looks shocked and asks how he could possibly know what he went through. Tom explains that the Council made him a spectre again but didn't believe him, at that very moment Tom ruins to the Turian Shopkeeper and the Turian Shopkeeper yells out how amazing Shepard is.

Anathony leaves enraged.

*SUICIDE MISSION*

Whileeating over lunch, Tom explains that he blew up the Collector Base and how everybody on his crew approved of it and adored him for doing it. Anthony, weary after all his fits of rage, slowly tilted his head up andsaid that his companions told him to keep the base due to it's potential. Tom smiles and tells Anthony that he knew that Renegades would get approval eventually, Anthony meets his gaze and then says those same companions told him to eat **** and die after they talked on the Normandy. Tom was left speechless as Anthony walked away.

*DAYS LATER*

Tomfinds Anthony weeping on his bed, he approachs Anthony and rubs Anthony's back. Anthony looks up and asks how come everything cool happened to him (Tom), Tom said that Anthony need not worry and he couldbe as cool if he just made a Paragon instead. Anthony sits up, stares at Tom and says that why is there even an option for Renegade if it removes content, Tom tells him it's because Renegades get the job done. Tom and Anthony argue about both their respective morality bars and eventually Anthony kicks Tom out of the house.

They never spoke with each other again

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[Inverness Moon]

Casuist wrote...

Stating that every possible avenue is needed is true... invoking panic to justify a particular choice (keeping the base) as the only necessary counter to the rational reasons posed to destroy it is not.

It's not about invoking panic, it's about being a realist and not an idealist.

Realists don't blow up valuable pieces of technology in the hope that they'll find some other magic bullet needed to stop the reapers. What TIM and Cerberus could do with the base isn't nearly as much of a threat as the reapers.

Casuist wrote...

Ancient construct for controlling and maintaining a slave race.

And for building reapers. Seems pretty logical to me that a base used to build reapers would offer valuable intelligence needed to destroy them.

Additionally, of course the base is risky, but that is hardly a significant deterrent.

Casuist wrote...

Cerberus is anti-alien but their studies (screw-ups as people call it) often involve in protecting humanity and such,
you've yet to see them work on an anti-alien plague because they know the threat the Reapers represent unlike everybody else in the galaxy.

That is neither wholly accurate (there are others that understand the threat) nor a permanent state of affairs (more know and will become aware with time... particularly with the Shadow Broker's network at hand.

There may be others that understand the threat, but they weren't exactly doing **** about it until Anderson at the end of Retribution. Of course he is only able to do anything because of Cerberus's efforts in that case.

Casuist wrote...

And I doubt they're finished... nor have we finished analyzing data from the derelict reaper, from the remnants of the collector base (or information taken from it and the collector ship before their destruction), from the citadel, from the scattered reaper tech that has the unfortunate tendency of flinging husks at us...

No real basis for this claim.

The basis is common sense. The collector base could potentially hand us the schematics for the reapers and other collector technology on a silver platter. That is quite different from reverse engineering stuff that was salvaged.

[Casuist]

mosor wrote...

Casuist wrote...

- Escape of Rachni
- a fairly clumsy massacre of Alliance marines and murder of Kahoku leading to Shepard's involvement in ME1
- Teltin facility
- Overlord
- Derelict reaper (you're going in without even the slightest bit of precaution that Indoctrination still might be in effect?)
- Retribution (the experiment on Grayson is idiotic both in the lack of obvious safeguards (put a collar around his neck, plant a failsafe in his chest... ANYTHING other than simply making an extremely dangerous, powerful being and locking him in a room) and the ridiculous aggressiveness of the testing in the first place). Beyond that, choosing Grayson as a target out of spite when he's holding a considerable amount of information about the organization as a threat over your head is pretty idiotic.

Cerberus is frequently incompetent... or "breathtakingly and needlessly irresponsible" if you prefer.

You're ignoring the other side of the coin.

1. We have a greater understanding of the rachni now.
2. Kahokou was covered up really well unless you play paragon Shep and turn him in rather than killing him or Toombs.
3.  Amoral sure. However, judging by Jack, I'm also sure they got a lot of info on increasing the biotic potential of humanity too.
4. Derelect Reaper-Did they not leave the IFF for you neatly on the table? Would you have even been able to retrieve it without their legwork and make it out of the ship in time?
5. Sure lots of people died, but at the same time, the understanding of the geth increased exponentially. We know now for certain that they can be controlled. Maybe if Archer's brother stays, the process can be pefected. Either way, tons of data was gained.
6. As for Grayson. Uhm, if the turians didn't attack, and then released him without any precautions of their own, even though something was obviously wrong with him, then none of this mess would have happened.

As I said above, failures does not equal  failure in gaining knowlegde or intelligence. Useful, possibly even vital knowledge can be gleaned even in disasters.

You are missing the point. I am not claiming that the projects have not been useful, but that the lack of due care is a sign of "incompetence." i.e.

3) yes, amoral, but the problem with Teltin is also that the experiment was conducted in a way that needlessly burned through biotic potential subjects, didn't provide for the long term viability or cooperation of subject zero and allowed for a riot/escape/.destruction of the facility.

...likewise with the rachni.

...likewise with the derelict reaper. Gosh do you think that we might be getting indoctrinated by this machine that is known to subconsciously indoctrinate people? Duh.... i dunno.

Sure, Grayson was in good shape- it's not as if Cerberus has never allowed the escape of a dangerous experimental subject on their own watch, eh? (See Zero, Subject; Toombs, Corporal; Archer, David; etc.). As I said, implanting his with a failsafe mechanism would have been easy and, considering the circumstances, obvious.

What you're saying is tantamount to "Hey, BP did good work on Deepwater Horizon- they found oil!"

[Casuist]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Casuist wrote...

Stating that every possible avenue is needed is true... invoking panic to justify a particular choice (keeping the base) as the only necessary counter to the rational reasons posed to destroy it is not.

It's not about invoking panic, it's about being a realist and not an idealist.

Realists don't blow up valuable pieces of technology in the hope that they'll find some other magic bullet needed to stop the reapers. What TIM and Cerberus could do with the base isn't nearly as much of a threat as the reapers.

Cerberus is as likely to harm as it is to help. See above for numerous examples.

[Inverness Moon]

Casuist wrote...

You are missing the point. I am not claiming that the projects have not been useful, but that the lack of due care is a sign of "incompetence." i.e.

3) yes, amoral, but the problem with Teltin is also that the experiment was conducted in a way that needlessly burned through biotic potential subjects, didn't provide for the long term viability or cooperation of subject zero and allowed for a riot/escape/.destruction of the facility.

...likewise with the rachni.

...likewise with the derelict reaper. Gosh do you think that we might be getting indoctrinated by this machine that is known to subconsciously indoctrinate people? Duh.... i dunno.

Sure, Grayson was in good shape- it's not as if Cerberus has never allowed the escape of a dangerous experimental subject on their own watch, eh? (See Zero, Subject; Toombs, Corporal; Archer, David; etc.). As I said, implanting his with a failsafe mechanism would have been easy and, considering the circumstances, obvious.

What you're saying is tantamount to "Hey, BP did good work on Deepwater Horizon- they found oil!"

As for the indoctrination from the derelict reaper. Where exactly does TIM or Cerberus learn about indoctrination beforehand? It's been awhile since I've played ME1, and I don't remember who Shepard told about that if anyone.

Implanting Grayson with anything could have interfered with their experiment in any number of unknown ways.

[Inverness Moon]

Casuist wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Casuist wrote...

Stating that every possible avenue is needed is true... invoking panic to justify a particular choice (keeping the base) as the only necessary counter to the rational reasons posed to destroy it is not.

It's not about invoking panic, it's about being a realist and not an idealist.

Realists don't blow up valuable pieces of technology in the hope that they'll find some other magic bullet needed to stop the reapers. What TIM and Cerberus could do with the base isn't nearly as much of a threat as the reapers.

Cerberus is as likely to harm as it is to help. See above for numerous examples.

They're not going to harm anyone more than the reapers will, and that is what matters to me.

Let's not forget that the reapers have been perpetuating a cycle of extinction for tens of millions of years with hundreds of trillions in casualties at the very least. There is nothing you can say that would convince me that giving the base to Cerberus is worse than making the fight to stop our destruction possibly several times more difficult, if not impossible.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:47 .

[upsettingshorts]

Plus its entirely plausible that they believed indoctrination was an active ability and not a passive one that could be utilized by a 37 million years dead Reaper.

An entirely logical assumption.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[Inverness Moon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Plus its entirely plausible that they believed indoctrination was an active ability and not a passive one that could be utilized by a 37 million years dead Reaper.

An entirely logical assumption.

Yes. Benezia did say that indoctrination was so subtle that by the time you noticed it was too late. I think they let their guard down by assuming the reaper could no longer indoctrinate them, an entirely reasonable assumption.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[mosor]

Nah there isn't a signficiant differences. The differences you're refering to are just flavor. Rachni queen? So you missed out on an asari praising the Rachni Queen. Killed Shiala? So what. There is a human there giving you the exact same mission. Killed Wrex because you didn't have the charm or found his armor? You get wreave and do the exact same missions. Killed the council? Both the new and the old do nothing nothing for you.

The only thing that changes is flavor. Nothing else. As for consequences. I think it's silly to judge them mid game and exclaim, yes! I was right! There is another game left after all. Really your enjoyment really depends on what you value. If Tom actually cared about telepathic bugs crawling in his universe, or hoped to bang Shiala, then he didn't have to kill them. If he doesn't care, he could have his friend, that he beat the game in a more bad assed style.

There doesn't appear to be any right or wrong way of doing things. You'll beat the game and win regardless. How satisfied you are with the epilogue really depends on what you want to see. For me it's human dominance. Others want a trekkie federation. Each their own I guess.

Modifié par mosor, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:53 .

[upsettingshorts]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Yes. Benezia did say that indoctrination was so subtle that by the time you noticed it was too late. I think they let their guard down by assuming the reaper could no longer indoctrinate them, an entirely reasonable assumption.

Wait, I can't tell, are you agreeing or disagreeing?

/goes to get more coffee

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...

You are missing the point. I am not claiming that the projects have not been useful, but that the lack of due care is a sign of "incompetence." i.e.

3) yes, amoral, but the problem with Teltin is also that the experiment was conducted in a way that needlessly burned through biotic potential subjects, didn't provide for the long term viability or cooperation of subject zero and allowed for a riot/escape/.destruction of the facility.

...likewise with the rachni.

...likewise with the derelict reaper. Gosh do you think that we might be getting indoctrinated by this machine that is known to subconsciously indoctrinate people? Duh.... i dunno.

Sure, Grayson was in good shape- it's not as if Cerberus has never allowed the escape of a dangerous experimental subject on their own watch, eh? (See Zero, Subject; Toombs, Corporal; Archer, David; etc.). As I said, implanting his with a failsafe mechanism would have been easy and, considering the circumstances, obvious.

What you're saying is tantamount to "Hey, BP did good work on Deepwater Horizon- they found oil!"

Come on now. It's easy to place safeguards and proper procedures on things we understand, because we made mistakes in the past and allowed us to prepare. When dealing with alien stuff, we don't have that experience, so it's almost impossible to plan for every eventuality. By your reasoning, Marie Currie and decades later the manhattan project scientists were incompetant because they didn't plan for radiation sickness.

As for the Reaper. It was thought dead. Going inside was a reasonble risk. If you didn't go inside, then no IFF. You think those scientists found that IFF on ship totally unfamilar to them in a matter of minutes? Keep dreaming.

As for Grayson. Things were under control until the turians. He wasn't going anywhere and were planning on killing him before the reapers took full control.

Modifié par mosor, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Casuist]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Casuist wrote...
... apart from some dissimilarities in content, there aren't any significant negative consequences for either moral approach in the game as far as I'm aware...

Sure there is.  There's a better post that responds to this that I didn't type, but here it is:
( I saved it because I knew I'd want to link to it )

I just lost a lengthy response, so I'll keep it brief. You proposed a gameplay penalty for one perspective (making a battle harder). None of these examples are gameplay differences, and the renegade/paragon choice creates reasonable differences in the aesthetics of the universe/increases opportunity to role play. If you don't want aliens on the citadel to resent humans, don't let the council die and aggressively take over the new one. If you want Shiala to live and have a conversation with you, don't kill her.

[didymos1120]

Inverness Moon wrote...
As for the indoctrination from the derelict reaper. Where exactly does TIM or Cerberus learn about indoctrination beforehand? It's been awhile since I've played ME1, and I don't remember who Shepard told about that if anyone.

Interesting question.  We know there are tales and legends floating about (the "machine cultist" thing).  We also know Shep and the STG have filed reports and written papers on it respectively, either of which TIM could have conceivably gotten copies of, but that's about the best we can do right now. 

ETA:  Other potential sources would be people like Rana Thanoptis, Shiala and others who became aware of what had happened to them.  That's an interesting question in and of itself: how many such people are out there?

Modifié par didymos1120, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[upsettingshorts]

It's better to compare it to NASA and the Russian space agencies than BP. Their research and development involved the cutting edge of human understanding and was very risky and dangerous.

Sometimes missions got botched.  Sometimes people died.  In hindsight, the crew of Apollo 1 probably shouldn't have been sealed into a 100% oxygen environment wearing flammable space suits.  But that doesn't make NASA evil or incompetent. 

As far as the indoctrination goes, I still maintain that the fact the Reaper has been 'dead' for 37 million years was more than enough room for the assumption that indoctrination wasn't going to be an issue.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Inverness Moon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Yes. Benezia did say that indoctrination was so subtle that by the time you noticed it was too late. I think they let their guard down by assuming the reaper could no longer indoctrinate them, an entirely reasonable assumption.

Wait, I can't tell, are you agreeing or disagreeing?

/goes to get more coffee

I'm agreeing with you. 

[theBioticGod]

It's because they know they do not need a silly base to stop the Reapers, for they have I, the Biotic God! I shall stop the Reapers with a flick of my wrist!

Modifié par theBioticGod, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Casuist]

Inverness Moon wrote...

As for the indoctrination from the derelict reaper. Where exactly does TIM or Cerberus learn about indoctrination beforehand? It's been awhile since I've played ME1, and I don't remember who Shepard told about that if anyone.

Implanting Grayson with anything could have interfered with their experiment in any number of unknown ways.

Seems they should ask if they don't know. What Shepard learned from Saren should have been ample enough warning. What Cerberus did themselves (colony of the dead) or discovered from studying Husks, should have been ample warning.

Implanting Grayson was a necessary safeguard. If you're worried about proper experimental design, picking a random subject because he pissed you off and conducting a massive, destructive experiment without first studying, say, the impact of the nanotech on the cellular level or on non-human subjects doesn't quite cut it.