3478 réponses à ce sujet

[DanaScu]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Plus its entirely plausible that they believed indoctrination was an active ability and not a passive one that could be utilized by a 37 million years dead Reaper.

An entirely logical assumption.

I would hope that a scientist who says the samples are talking to him would raise a few red flags. You know, since they are on a derelict reaper and all.... At least that is what the one terminal recording says. The guy who made the log entry was even nervous about it. Those other two guys who married the same woman with the same relative that got kicked down the church stairs might have been another clue. Oh, and seeing creatures meld into and out of the walls might just have been another hint that something wasn't right.

Instead of reporting Chandana for listening to 37 million year old dead reaper samples, they do nothing. Instead of reporting that people are experiencing hallucinations, they do nothing.

Or did they report it and TIM told them to stay and get his results? TIM does say the loss of the entire team wasn't unexpected. The mission summary was equally dispassionate. They have their data; what does it matter the entire team died? [again; Cerberus must have one heck of a life insurance plan]

[upsettingshorts]

DanaScu wrote...
[again; Cerberus must have one heck of a life insurance plan]

We don't know when those recordings took place, in what relation to each other in time, or if their communications had been blacked out before or after they noticed those issues.   We do know that subordinates of cells do not get access to the Illusive Man - from what Miranda and Jacob either say or imply - so I doubt anyone other than Chandana would be speaking with him.  And Chandana most likely considered his own behavior appropriate.

Granted that doesn't mean I'm waving away your points, just saying they're speculative.  There could be a reasonable explanation.  Or you could be completely right.  We don't know.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[TuringPoint]

Maybe the Reaper targeted Chandana for that very reason? To keep the team there and make them into husks.



Or perhaps the entire team was under complete quarantine from the beginning, to prevent the Reaper from having agents to put out into the world. But did TIM know enough about indoctrination yet to do that?



On a similar note, having a team stay on a Reaper to get indoctrinated and die, in order to get a whatsamathingy, turned out for the greater good. It was dangerous, but it was the only way for there to be a mission to fight the collectors. When are we going to see some similar choices for Shepard, with similar consequences?



Are there any Renegade choices that actually turn out to be best, in that way?

[didymos1120]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There could be a reasonable explanation. 

There are plenty:

a. People are not always rational, and especially when freaked the hell out.
b. Good ol' fashioned denial
c. They were literally being driven mad.  Tends to screw up one's ability to make good decisions.
d. Their memories were clearly screwed up.  Makes it much harder to think straight.
e.  all the other stuff I'm too lazy to think of.

[TuringPoint]

It's very interesting that the indoctrination didn't keep them from getting the whatsamathingy. (that allowed you to go to the collector base) I wonder what the story is, there?

  I think more likely than being irrational, they rationalized what was happening and kept on with their work.

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[upsettingshorts]

They had to have been there a while as functional researchers. They built the entire infrastructure Shepard and crew walk on during the entire mission and located the IFF.

[Dave of Canada]

Alocormin wrote...

Are there any Renegade choices that actually turn out to be best, in that way?

Nope. Either everybody hates you (but the paragon gets the same results anyway) or it's never mentioned. I really want the Collector Base to be one, though.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:41 .

[TuringPoint]

Well, it's academic. But I'm fairly sure the infrastructure was built before they came, or at least some of it was. They had to prepare the area for shirt-sleeves work before the scientists came in and did their thing

[DanaScu]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DanaScu wrote...
[again; Cerberus must have one heck of a life insurance plan]

We don't know when those recordings took place, in what relation to each other in time, or if their communications had been blacked out before or after they noticed those issues.   We do know that subordinates of cells do not get access to the Illusive Man - from what Miranda and Jacob either say or imply - so I doubt anyone other than Chandana would be speaking with him.  And Chandana most likely considered his own behavior appropriate.

Granted that doesn't mean I'm waving away your points, just saying they're speculative.  There could be a reasonable explanation.  Or you could be completely right.  We don't know.

I'm agreeing, in case this doesn't come across that way; I really need to get to sleep. But how many competent teams have only one contact with their base/superiors? Was there anyone who was a second in command? Even without the dead reaper aspect, boarding a derelict ship for salvage operations isn't the safest occupation. If the leader ends up squished/shredded/crushed/in need of medical evac, who calls for help? Is this going back to TIM micromanaging things with the usual high bodycount results? 

[an aside that is probably caused by lack of sleep-- did anyone notice that the "evolved" husks look like the statues of the pre-Collector Protheans? If you have the Kasumi dlc and do her loyalty mission you finally get a good look at one of the statues in a good light. If they are, that was some genetic rewrite the reapers did.]

[upsettingshorts]

I think its a reflection of their priorities not their competence. Cerberus is a secret and criminal - at least in Council space - organization. Limiting The Illusive Man's exposure, the one guy who has knowledge of every single Cerberus cell, to a select few is an organizational necessity. If only for security purposes. If that means sacrificing some redundancy in individual cells, at least the organization as a whole is safe.

You don't see, through the numerous examples of botched Cerberus operations in both games, it coming back to haunt The Illusive Man. And their operations continue. That kind of compartmentalization is part of what makes that possible.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[didymos1120]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Are there any Renegade choices that actually turn out to be best, in that way?

Nope. Either everybody hates you (but the paragon gets the same results anyway) or it's never mentioned. I really want the Collector Base to be one, though.

That's not true in at least three cases: if you kill the queen, there's a news report about the discovery that genetic experiments being conducted with rachni DNA were performed at Peak 15.  It then notes that, fortunately, no living rachni were actually produced. If you kill  colonists but spare Shiala, you get a fairly different conversation with her about what happened there.  She doesn't hate you for doing it either.  And if you don't let Balak escape in BDtS, the news mentions there will be a candlelight vigil for those killed during the incident.

[KalenNighteyes]

I have a suggestion... Let's make a poll. It should say, "Did you destroy the Collector Base?" and two simple answers to go with it: "Yes" and "No". You could also add the obligatory unneeded third answer of "What the hell is a Collector Base?" but then your data would be invalid and you'd never know what percentage of this community actually destroyed it.



I'll be honest. I destroy the Collector Base each time I play through the game. The last playthrough, however, I did not destroy it. It felt like I was playing a whole different game with that ending. Also, destroying it gives the possibility for The Illusive Man to send assassins after Shepard haha.

[Dave of Canada]

didymos1120 wrote...

That's not true in at least three cases: if you kill the queen, there's a news report about the discovery that genetic experiments being conducted with rachni DNA were performed at Peak 15.  It then notes that, fortunately, no living rachni were actually produced. If you kill  colonists but spare Shiala, you get a fairly different conversation with her about what happened there.  She doesn't hate you for doing it either.  And if you don't let Balak escape in BDtS, the news mentions there will be a candlelight vigil for those killed during the incident.

The Shiala case is rather odd, you'd have to mix paragon / renegade with it. I do give you that one though.

I seem to remember getting the Balak news report on my default Shepard or those that didn't do the DLC.

Never heard of the Rachni one, is it an Emily Wong one? I've pretty much listened to almost all the normal news.

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...

So your contention is that Cerberus managed to investigate Shepard extensively, study mind-and-body-altering reaper equipment, realize the existence and threat of the reapers, and managed to neither read Shepherd's reports from ME:1 or simply ask him before investigating the derelict ship.

Like I said above, you assume a playthrough where shepard did all the side quests and even then there is nothing to suggest a dead reaper still indoctrinates. Even if it did, people still needed to go in and take that chance. Otherwise no IFF.

Ignorance brought about by not following up obvious lines of investigation is still incompetence.

They got that IFF and completed the mission. That's far from incompetent.

I'm assuming nothing about Retribution. The reapers are in full control and Cerberus removed any means of Grayson fighting that control before the turian raid, and there was no excuse whatsoever for not being able to kill him the moment the turian threat was realized. These are the facts as clearly presented by the book.

Obviously you  either diddn't read retribution or skimmed over the part concerning the turian raid.

Modifié par mosor, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

mosor wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

On the whole Renegade/Paragon thing...

As I've said in other threads what annoys me is that it is the player who is punished for their choices. If you kill a character as a renegade it makes sense that they don't appear in the next game, but this punishes the player. The player should never be punished for choices, only the character.

I'm not gonna quote the whole thing. However, I have to say your ideas would have been pretty cool if it was in game. Then again, with ME3, who knows. ME2 is just the middle chapter. As I said in a previous post, it's ludicrous to think you have vindication on your decisons based on the events of the middle chapter alone.

During the Eclipse base mission to get the info for Samara, a Renegade interupt turns out to have taken a cold-blooded murdered off the streets of Illium.

[Casuist]

mosor wrote...

Casuist wrote...

So your contention is that Cerberus managed to investigate Shepard extensively, study mind-and-body-altering reaper equipment, realize the existence and threat of the reapers, and managed to neither read Shepherd's reports from ME:1 or simply ask him before investigating the derelict ship.

Like I said above, you assume a playthrough where shepard did all the side quests and even then there is nothing to suggest a dead reaper still indoctrinates. 

The events regarding Cerberus happen regardless of whether Shepard participates (Colony of the Dead). Virmire happens if Shepard exists.

Even if it did, people still needed to go in and take that chance. Otherwise no IFF.

Please stop repeating this. I've never claimed they shouldn't go. I've stated that they did so with inadequate care... the reports of their attempts to detect active nanotechnology from reaper artifacts are pretty clear evidence they are aware of indoctrination to some extent. 

Ignorance brought about by not following up obvious lines of investigation is still incompetence.

They got that IFF and completed the mission. That's far from incompetent.

They died, moved the IFF to the core of the reaper, and actively impeded Shepard's progress as husks.

I'm assuming nothing about Retribution. The reapers are in full control and Cerberus removed any means of Grayson fighting that control before the turian raid, and there was no excuse whatsoever for not being able to kill him the moment the turian threat was realized. These are the facts as clearly presented by the book.

Obviously you  either diddn't read retribution or skimmed over the part concerning the turian raid.

Yes, the conversation immediately prior to the raid where TIM gives 3 days maximum additional observation is a clear sign that Grayson is still safely unchanged. Perfectly secure.

During and after the raid grayson is never shown to be able to exert significant physical control over his body. The previous chapter is the last... and that is thwarted by the automated red sand injection.

(all of this, incidentally, is rendered somewhat moot by the fact that the Turians wouldn't have shown up if not for TIM exacting petty revenge, a point I made some time ago) 

Modifié par Casuist, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:48 .

[General User]

DanaScu wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DanaScu wrote...
[again; Cerberus must have one heck of a life insurance plan]

We don't know when those recordings took place, in what relation to each other in time, or if their communications had been blacked out before or after they noticed those issues.   We do know that subordinates of cells do not get access to the Illusive Man - from what Miranda and Jacob either say or imply - so I doubt anyone other than Chandana would be speaking with him.  And Chandana most likely considered his own behavior appropriate.

Granted that doesn't mean I'm waving away your points, just saying they're speculative.  There could be a reasonable explanation.  Or you could be completely right.  We don't know.

I'm agreeing, in case this doesn't come across that way; I really need to get to sleep. But how many competent teams have only one contact with their base/superiors? Was there anyone who was a second in command? Even without the dead reaper aspect, boarding a derelict ship for salvage operations isn't the safest occupation. If the leader ends up squished/shredded/crushed/in need of medical evac, who calls for help? Is this going back to TIM micromanaging things with the usual high bodycount results? 

[an aside that is probably caused by lack of sleep-- did anyone notice that the "evolved" husks look like the statues of the pre-Collector Protheans? If you have the Kasumi dlc and do her loyalty mission you finally get a good look at one of the statues in a good light. If they are, that was some genetic rewrite the reapers did.]

I'm  sure that Cerberus cells do not have only one contact with TIM and central command.  In the Lazarus Cell, on Normandy, both Shepard and Miranda check in regularly with TIM, and even Jacob (whom I consider a rather junior officer) rang him up when he felt he had cause.  While I doubt Seargent Gardner will put in a call to TIM every time he need new cookware, TIM does seem to have a relatively open-door policy, at  least amoung trusted or critical agents.  And while he might not meet face to face with any Cerberus person (for a variety of reasons), he doesn't seem the sort to through info away just because it came from a junior member of a cell.  How he analyzes that info and how he acts on it on the other hand...

That being said I do agree that Cerberus command structure is far more centralized than is necessary or even in the organizations' best interests.

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...


The events regarding Cerberus happen
regardless of whether Shepard participates (Colony of the Dead). Virmire
happens if Shepard exists.

You never gave evidence  that the husks were created by indoctrination in the colony of the dead,
and who knows exactly what device Saren was using on Virmie. Does the
device need a controller, or does it work automatically? None of that is
clear in the Vermire mission, and neither of which shows any evidence
that the one in a reaper would work if a reaper is dead. As I said, It
not working was a reasonable assumption.

Please stop repeating this. I've never claimed they shouldn't go. I've stated
that they did so with inadequate care... the reports of their attempts
to detect active nanotechnology from reaper artifacts are pretty clear
evidence they are aware of indoctrination to some extent. 

They knew live reapers indoctrinate.  They knew there were dangers. They
took the precautions they thought necessary. It wasn't enough. You judge
them incompetent, using information either you're more privy to or with 20/20
hindsight. Either way it's not a fair assesment of that science team.
They're heros. Even if what you say is absolutely true. That TIM knew with certainty about the dangers and forced the science team in without adequate safegaurds, then that's evidence of callousness, not incompetance.

They died, moved the IFF to the core of the reaper, and actively impeded Shepard's progress as husks.

Maybe they found that IFF in that very room and left it on the table where they worked on? How do you know the IFF wasn't in the core to begin with? Regardless, if Shepard had to search for it, it would have been him that was indoctrinated. it would have taken a very long time to find. So yes they did their jobs. Fighting the husks is a small price to pay to avoid being indoctrinated yourself.

Yes, the conversation immediately prior to the raid where TIM gives 3 days maximum additional observation is a clear sign that Grayson is still safely unchanged. Perfectly secure.

During and after the raid grayson is never shown to be able to exert significant physical control over his body. The previous chapter is the last... and that is thwarted by the automated red sand injection.

(all of this, incidentally, is rendered somewhat moot by the fact that the Turians wouldn't have shown up if not for TIM exacting petty revenge, a point I made some time ago) 

Well if you did you reading, you'd know grayson obviously wasn't at his full power when the turians apprehended him. The only reason why he overcame them was they were not prepared. By the time he was at his full power was in Omega, and it didn't take him a few minutes to get there by shuttle. Like I said, you're only offering conjecture on what might have happened if the turian raid didn't happen, nothing else.

As for grayson. He needed to be taken out. You can't leave a guy like that alive with a sword over your head. no intelligence agency in the world would have left a guy with that kind of info alive. TIM rolled snake eyes with that one, but going after him was the right call regardless.

Modifié par mosor, 15 septembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[Casuist]

mosor wrote...
You never gave evidence  that the husks were created by indoctrination in the colony of the dead,

True...but the dragon teeth are reaper tech with a similar tranformational effect to some of the modifications made to the Cerberus personnel aboard the reaper. There's far more reason to believe the changes and study thereof are relevant than there is to dismiss it. 

and who knows exactly what device Saren was using on Virmie. Does the
device need a controller, or does it work automatically? None of that is
clear in the Vermire mission, and neither of which shows any evidence
that the one in a reaper would work if a reaper is dead. As I said, It
not working was a reasonable assumption.

Whatever they were studying on Virmire required indoctrination, but did not require Sovereign's continuous presence. Given the knowledge of reaper tech that transforms in the absence of a reaper and the virmire example, asssuming it would work on the derelict reaper is both a more reasonable and vastly safer assumption than believing it to be inactive with no experience to support that claim, PARTICULARLY as the derelict reaper still had an obviously functioning core..

Maybe they found that IFF in that very room and left it on the table where they worked on? How do you know the IFF wasn't in the core to begin with?

Companion comment in-game. How the party establishes that it has been moved is a matter for speculation, but it is not really left up to question. (likely it was not in the context of other equipment that would be required for it to function).

Regardless, if Shepard had to search for it, it would have been him that was indoctrinated. it would have taken a very long time to find.

Now who is relying on conjecture?

Well if you did you reading, you'd know grayson obviously wasn't at his full power when the turians apprehended him. The only reason why he overcame them was they were not prepared. By the time he was at his full power was in Omega, and it didn't take him a few minutes to get there by shuttle. Like I said, you're only offering conjecture on what might have happened if the turian raid didn't happen, nothing else.

Fine. Let's say Cerberus is ultimately completely faultless for the Grayson incident, and only manages to lose nearly all their personnel 75% of the time. Stellar.

As for grayson. He needed to be taken out. You can't leave a guy like that alive with a sword over your head. no intelligence agency in the world would have left a guy with that kind of info alive. TIM rolled snake eyes with that one, but going after him was the right call regardless.

After two+ years of stalemate? Do you think they couldn't have possibly done more to hide some of the installations that were compromised by Grayson leaving? Do you think that they should not at least have been prepared for him retaliating with his information? 

Modifié par Casuist, 16 septembre 2010 - 01:43 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Sovereign could NOT BE TOUCHED by the alliance, none of their guns worked, no damage was taken, they were completely outmatched... the whole lot of them... and that was just 1 ship.

The only reason the Alliance was able to beat Sovereign was because Sovereign completely embedded himself into Saren's dead body.  At that point, the reaper was the only one who could activate the station.  With that body destroyed, Sovereign's ship became lifeless and shieldless, allowing for it to be destroyed.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Arijharn]

Casuist wrote...
 and only manages to lose nearly all their personnel 75% of the time. Stellar.

I have to say, once again, that this statement is incredibly stupid to make. Disasters are disasters of course, but how can anyone conclusively say that Cerberus fails more than it succeeds?

Unless of course, you are privy to all the science/political and military divisions and their projects

[Nightwriter]

Well, I think when we say Cerberus has failed, we are saying BioWare's presentation of Cerberus is only failures.

In other words, all they show us are disasters.

It is extremely hard to argue their potential successes when their successes are unknown and their failures are very known, and abominable.

BioWare needs to start showing us some of Cerberus's successes, because at the end of the day, we only have what we know. On the whole, I would like to feel more conflicted about Cerberus. So I'd like to see some of the good they do.

"Omg, they stomped 1000 puppies to death... but they saved a whole planet! HRRRNNGGG... don't... know... how... to feel..."

Like that.

[chris025657]

Arijharn wrote...

Casuist wrote...
 and only manages to lose nearly all their personnel 75% of the time. Stellar.

I have to say, once again, that this statement is incredibly stupid to make. Disasters are disasters of course, but how can anyone conclusively say that Cerberus fails more than it succeeds?

Unless of course, you are privy to all the science/political and military divisions and their projects

I don't think that it's necessary to know about all Cerberus projects to know that they've had successful projects that have saved lives. For example, their encouragement of the Alliance to build the original Normandy has already indirectly saved the galaxy once before, and bringing Shepard back may again save many lives. Not to mention already having saved the Council from terrorists, saving half the the colony on Horizon versus an entire colony, and significantly aiding Shepard's mission in stopping the Collectors.  

[Casuist]

Arijharn wrote...

Casuist wrote...
 and only manages to lose nearly all their personnel 75% of the time. Stellar.

I have to say, once again, that this statement is incredibly stupid to make. Disasters are disasters of course, but how can anyone conclusively say that Cerberus fails more than it succeeds?

Unless of course, you are privy to all the science/political and military divisions and their projects

"I have to say that this statement is incredibly stupid to make...."

hang on...did I resort to ad hominem?

We can go off what we know about. Cerberus has run a number of very successful operations, judging from the SB dossier. There are also a number of reckless wastes of life, evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Since we're fairly off-topic from the original subject for which I joined this thread I'll say:

If you think their track record is particularly strong, or that successful research usually involves the death of your research team, you're welcome to them.

[TuringPoint]

didymos1120 wrote...

That's not true in at least three cases: if you kill the queen, there's a news report about the discovery that genetic experiments being conducted with rachni DNA were performed at Peak 15.  It then notes that, fortunately, no living rachni were actually produced. If you kill  colonists but spare Shiala, you get a fairly different conversation with her about what happened there.  She doesn't hate you for doing it either.  And if you don't let Balak escape in BDtS, the news mentions there will be a candlelight vigil for those killed during the incident.

None of those are the "best" outcomes, that I can tell.  I guess they aren't as punishing as some, but with the Queen Rachni I know that it was more or less harmless to let her live.  However, the action isn't condemned, and RP wise or if you had only ever killed off the queen, this would let you feel pretty satisfied with the outcome of killing the queen.
I also know that killing the colonists is just pointless because it's easy not to.  Bioware is heavy handed about telling you that it's possible to avoid killing the colonists, when it would be more interesting if they hadn't been so obvious about that, and made you work to figure a way not to kill them.  
Candlelight Vigil for the deceased after you off Balak, that's interesting... but you get a similar news story, and a thank you mail if you kept the hostages alive.

Modifié par Alocormin, 16 septembre 2010 - 04:06 .