3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

Casuist wrote...

"I have to say that this statement is incredibly stupid to make...."


hang on...did I resort to ad hominem?

Perhaps, but you know if someone is going to make ridiculous statements, expect them to be called ridiculous. If you wish to have your comments be taken seriously then you have to admit that you'd have to resort to common sense. If you are wondering why I would label it common sense, then you must realise that:
a) Cerberus is a 'secret' organisation.
Secret organisations wouldn't require a PR department
c) Secret organisations wouldn't publicise their results on account of them being secret!

Also, just in case you're in danger of assuming that I speak for mosor (to whom you were having a discussion with) then I assure you (for whatever that's worth) that I am not. 

I didn't actually call you personally stupid though, it's one of those 'clever' bastardly tricks where people read between the lines. It's like saying: "Only intelligent people vote for George W. Bush," which of course implies that people who didn't vote for George W. Bush aren't intelligent.

However, to be fair, it isn't you who is the only one who has made this comment, others have as well. However, not many people accept this rebuttal (for some reason) so it does become rather tiring to hear someone trumpet it for the hundred and thirtieth time. The whole nature of Cerberus still existing seems to me to strongly imply that Cerberus has more successes than failures on the account that people still supply the organisations with funding.

But you know what, consider yourself that you've won because it seems like the same arguments are going to be made on both sides till the end of the franchise and honestly I lack the same patience and enthusiasm to make those same rebuttals. 

[Casuist]

Arijharn wrote...
Perhaps, but you know if someone is going to make ridiculous statements, expect them to be called ridiculous. If you wish to have your comments be taken seriously then you have to admit that you'd have to resort to common sense. If you are wondering why I would label it common sense, then you must realise that:
a) Cerberus is a 'secret' organisation.
Secret organisations wouldn't require a PR department
c) Secret organisations wouldn't publicise their results on account of them being secret!

You do realize that the shadow broker dossier+novels+202/20 hindsight are the near-equivalent (or, in the case of Drew's writing, equivalent) of "third person omniscient?" We go off of what we know, what we know is far more than what has been publicised, and what we know is that Cerberus is a bold, intelligent, successful AND failure prone, ruthlessly amoral and hideously reckless organization.

No one is saying that their experiments haven't, on occasion, paid off.
No one is claiming their projects aren't worth doing or even, in some cases, necessary.
It shouldn't be controversial to say that they'd do themselves a whole lot of good if they didn't need to replace their brilliant personnel on such a regular basis, and that certain entirely reasonable precautionary measures could help with that.

{on topic}...and would make me more inclined to give them the base, if they dealt with that whole amorality thing anyway{/on topic}

Modifié par Casuist, 16 septembre 2010 - 04:50 .

[Nightwriter]

It's always confused me. EDI tells me Cerberus is made up of like 150 members. Seems like they go through most of that in a single year on failed projects. I've sometimes suspected that TIM gave her false information.

[fongiel24]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's always confused me. EDI tells me Cerberus is made up of like 150 members. Seems like they go through most of that in a single year on failed projects. I've sometimes suspected that TIM gave her false information.

This number does sound suspiciously low. In ME1 I swear I must have killed at least twenty Cerberus operatives. Maybe EDI is only including people working directly for Cerberus, running around in Cerberus uniforms. Maybe the 150 doesn't include informants, spies, covert operatives, political plants, etc. because TIM deliberately witholds that information to prevent the possibility of them being compromised in the event of a security leak. 

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's always confused me. EDI tells me Cerberus is made up of like 150 members. Seems like they go through most of that in a single year on failed projects. I've sometimes suspected that TIM gave her false information.

Honestly, I have no idea why Cerberus would even give that information to her in the first place, even if it is a lie.

[Nightwriter]

I don't think it's so much a matter of "giving" it to her, as her having access to it as a side effect of her intended duties. And fongiel, doesn't EDI say something like "150 members in all"? Implying this number encompasses all operatives?

[Inverness Moon]

Arijharn wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It's always confused me. EDI tells me Cerberus is made up of like 150 members. Seems like they go through most of that in a single year on failed projects. I've sometimes suspected that TIM gave her false information.

Honestly, I have no idea why Cerberus would even give that information to her in the first place, even if it is a lie.

I always assumed, that if TIM ever got offed, TIM would have highly valuable information about Cerberus under the protection of an AI for whoever becomes the next leader of Cerberus assuming that even happens.

As for Cerberus's members. I'm guessing that 150 members are the permanent agents and people leading the operations of their different cells. I'm guessing they hire other people for different cells to get their work done. For example, the crew of the SR2 all wear a Cerberus uniform, but I'd be very surprised if they were included in that 150.

[fongiel24]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't think it's so much a matter of "giving" it to her, as her having access to it as a side effect of her intended duties. And fongiel, doesn't EDI say something like "150 members in all"? Implying this number encompasses all operatives?

EDI would say '150 members in all' because TIM wouldn't trust her with the 'hidden' members if he's worried about security leaks. Covert operatives, informants, and plants would likely only be known by their handlers and TIM himself, so as to limit the damage if someone decided to betray Cerberus like Wilson did. That's my guess anyway.

[Arijharn]

Completely as an aside; I would actually be disappointed if Shephard got the chance to off TIM.



He's just too awesome as a character to be taken out by someone who is as visible as Shephard (and well, I think TIM is smarter than any Shephard anyway)

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's always confused me. EDI tells me Cerberus is made up of like 150 members. Seems like they go through most of that in a single year on failed projects. I've sometimes suspected that TIM gave her false information.

The only explanations I can think of are:

1) There are 150 currently active members.  There are more members of Cerberus out there, but are held "in reserve" until their cells get activated for a project.

2) Cerberus has some sort of "degree of membership" system going.  There are 150 "full members" with X numbers of initiates, apprentices, or whatever.

3) Cerberus does a lot of subcontracting.  They bring in lots of experts that aren't Cerberus (and may not even realize they are working for Cerberus)  for their projects.  Thus all the loss of life and property can actually be blamed on the temps they hired.

4) 150 is all that's left after the latest round of science experiment wackiness
 

[TuringPoint]

I'll go with number four. And that the number goes up and down, but is mostly kept at around 150.

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Completely as an aside; I would actually be disappointed if Shephard got the chance to off TIM.

He's just too awesome as a character to be taken out by someone who is as visible as Shephard (and well, I think TIM is smarter than any Shephard anyway)

TIM is invaluable as a character. He brings serious contributions to the Mass Effect universe imo.

And I've always resented that we can't roleplay Shepard as being a bit smarter.

iakus, where's the "TIM is feeding EDI false numbers" option?

[fongiel24]

Arijharn wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It's always confused me. EDI tells me Cerberus is made up of like 150 members. Seems like they go through most of that in a single year on failed projects. I've sometimes suspected that TIM gave her false information.

Honestly, I have no idea why Cerberus would even give that information to her in the first place, even if it is a lie.

This bothered me too. I know shackled EDI has blocks that prevent her from revealing this information, but TIM is handing over the ship to Shepard, who's loyalty to Cerberus is obviously suspect. What if Shepard turns around and hands the ship (and EDI) right over to the Alliance? What if the Shadow Broker gets his hands on the ship?

[Nightwriter]

Probably thought he could always rely on Miranda to be there to protect his interests. He thought wrong. He he.

[TuringPoint]

I totally agree about not getting smarter options for Shepard. Sometimes Shepard is smart, but it's hard to know when what you're about to say will be.

[Nightwriter]

In my heart of hearts, I wanted Shepard and TIM to be playing a silent game of chess throughout this entire game. As equals. A kind of silent power struggle between strained allies who both want to do things their way.

Yet Shepard and TIM are not really equals in any way. TIM is always Shepard's better. TIM calls the shots and TIM gives the orders. TIM tricks Shepard and Shepard never sees it coming.

[Nightwriter]

When did I mention running an organization or government? And I've never liked the argument that Shepard cannot be intelligent because Shepard was in the military.

[upsettingshorts]

Shepard is a commissioned officer. He's got as much of an education, and likely more given his advanced training, than your average bachelor of arts.

...and why is commanding an army in battle implied as being easier than running an "actual" organization or government?

Edit: Saw your follow up above this post, can't say I disagree with it.  Shepard can be a smart guy, even capable of mind games, but I really don't see him leading some kind of galactic coup. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

I never said you did, but your post vaguely implied it. That post wasn't directed just at you. A lot of people like to fantasize about Shepard taking over Cerberus or taking over the galaxy if he helps humanity rise to power. I just can't ever imagine Shepard doing that. He doesn't have a political mind.

Can't argue with that. Shepard is a creature of action and would be ill-suited for a job that involves any kind of immobility for significant lengths of time.

Doesn't stop me from feeling that it's unfortunate. I am not asking for President of the Galaxy material or anything - just an intelligent character.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...
Doesn't stop me from feeling that it's unfortunate. I am not asking for President of the Galaxy material or anything - just an intelligent character.

You will get what you're given and you will like it!

[lovgreno]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's always confused me. EDI tells me Cerberus is made up of like 150 members. Seems like they go through most of that in a single year on failed projects. I've sometimes suspected that TIM gave her false information.

Wouldn't be the first time TIMmy tried to manipulate Shepard like he manipulates everyone. Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic.
But considering how much personell that had to be sacrificed to the dead reaper to get results in the Cerberus method of learning through attrition a lot more than 150 would be needed to investigate the vastly bigger and still quite active, and therefore much more potentialy dangerous, collector base. Some improvements in security is also needed but as we have seen that is a lesson Cerberus has never learned before.

Then again the radiation wave might have worked as intended, even though TIMmy and Shepard knew basicaly nothing about the base and it's reactor, and removed all kinds of expected and unexpected reaper related threats while leaving the potentialy usefull information and tech (that may very well not be there at all) unharmed. In that case perhaps even Cerberus might have a sucessfull project for once, even though their small and constantly dwindling resources would make things take a very long time.

But the radiation wave could also have failed.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Knowing numbers or "how" things are run tells you nothing about them. So there's no harm done in that information being known. EDI may also send data to those groups (being another reason she'd know about them).