3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For those who hate the Illusive Man and see him as a greater threat than the Reapers:



Another reason to keep the Collector base is to finally be able to confront and eliminate/arrest the Illusive Man. He's a recluse and always distances himself from Cerberus activities, no one ever finds him except for those he requests an audience with (Miranda's the only known person so far in the games to have been with him face to face).



Make enemies and you'll never get near him, he's already got Reaper and Collector tech so the lack of a base would only slow him down. If he works faster, greater chance he has of making a mistake without sending someone else in to correct it.

[Xilizhra]

Arresting the Illusive Man isn't my primary concern here; it's weakening Cerberus. I don't care much if the organization outlives the Reapers, but I don't want them making trouble during the fighting.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aye. Can you imagine how terrible it would be if they provided weapons to the Alliance or undefended colonies, gave Shepard intel that Liara couldn't, or used their exclusive research into the Reapers against them?



An utter catastrophe, I tell you.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed it would; it'd mean that the laws of causality are shattering and that the Reapers can do worse things than blow up stars.



More seriously, it would in fact be a bad thing if they provided weapons to the Alliance, unless maybe it was the instant the Reapers showed up; what the hell would the Council think of the Alliance then? That's the sort of damage to galactic stability that I've been talking about. As for providing information that Liara can't, that really is something of a pipe dream. TIM's "information" consists of incomplete interpretations of garbled Cerberus messages, detail-less dossiers, and traps he himself set for you.

[General User]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Shepard is a commissioned officer. He's got as much of an education, and likely more given his advanced training, than your average bachelor of arts.

...and why is commanding an army in battle implied as being easier than running an "actual" organization or government?

Edit: Saw your follow up above this post, can't say I disagree with it.  Shepard can be a smart guy, even capable of mind games, but I really don't see him leading some kind of galactic coup. 

I agree. If N7 is anything like modern elite military units, it can be safely assumed that Shepards native intelligence and education are significantly higher than that of the average Alliance citizen.
 
I would also make the point that, in democratic societies in particular, the military is traditionally seen as a source of potential leadership. From Pericles to David Anderson, so to speak. 
 
Shepard has extensive experience working with aliens and alien governments and (potentially) initiated the first peaceful contact with two alien races. S/He’s an ideal candidate, paragons especially! Even with the Cerberus connection, Shepard could easily achieve lofty political ambitions. Alliance Parliament at the very least, a colonist Shepard could become colonial governor of Mindoir almost without a second thought. Say what you will about them, Terra Firma recognized this much.  Shepards profile has only grown since then and is only likely to grow in the future…
 
…or the Reapers will kill us all, also a distinct possibility.

[GodWood]

Stupidity, morals, meta-gaming...

[Xilizhra]

Come to think of it, why is it a bad thing if a player's primary reason for destroying the base is metagame-based? It is a game, after all, and it's not like your decisions will affect the paths Bioware has planned out. Can't you just want to see one of them more than the other?

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
Come to think of it, why is it a bad thing if a player's primary reason for destroying the base is metagame-based? It is a game, after all, and it's not like your decisions will affect the paths Bioware has planned out. Can't you just want to see one of them more than the other?

Well 'I' myself didn't say meta-gaming is a bad thing in my response, I simpy said its a reason for picking the destruction of the CB.

However for the purpose of debating choices made in ME meta-gaming is a bad thing.

[Xilizhra]

What if you can still justify your choice in-game?

[Arijharn]

Because meta-gaming is an excuse really. Sure it's a game but by metagaming it it's almost as if you're trivialising your decision because you know it'd turn out all right in the end. Different strokes for different folks of course, but personally I find metagaming to be something as I engineer a result to get, rather than letting the game play through naturally.



A good example is Elnora when she pulls a gun on you after basically surrendering. No one in their right mind (at least, anyone in Shephard's position) would just accept that without knowledge that 'hey, this is just a renegade interrupt, this'll turn out alright in the end.' The prudent thing to do would be just to shoot her after she refuses her own surrender (does that even make sense?)

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
What if you can still justify your choice in-game?

Well if its justifiable in character then that'd be acceptable but if its something like "I destroyed the base because I know Shepard will still win in ME3" then that just ruins the point of the "tough choices."

[Xilizhra]

The trouble with interrupts is that their nature isn't always immediately obvious, so you can't be sure that your Shepard would perform them. I only perform Renegade interrupts if they're really obvious and helpful at the same time, like zapping Cathka; this is the initial reason why Elnora went on living for me.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

What if you can still justify your choice in-game?

If you can justify your choice in game then that by definition can't be metagaming.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Indeed it would; it'd mean that the laws of causality are shattering and that the Reapers can do worse things than blow up stars.

More seriously, it would in fact be a bad thing if they provided weapons to the Alliance, unless maybe it was the instant the Reapers showed up; what the hell would the Council think of the Alliance then? That's the sort of damage to galactic stability that I've been talking about. As for providing information that Liara can't, that really is something of a pipe dream. TIM's "information" consists of incomplete interpretations of garbled Cerberus messages, detail-less dossiers, and traps he himself set for you.

The same thing when the Turians 'developed' the Thannix canon, or when the Alliance developed fighter carriers and the stealth frigate concept. Another military technological development, which has never been barred by the Council. Humanity is infamous for being innovative in the galactic scene.

The fact that TIM was able to bring about the fall of the Broker, but not the other way around, is a rather strong indicator that there are things TIM knows that the Broker didn't. So is the admission by the Broker that Cerberus had deciphering technologies in relation to the Geth that the Broker didn't (and now the Broker's agents are being rooted/turned by Cerberus).

The dossiers were pretty clearly sparse for gameplay reasons. No game, none, has ever forced or given everyone the chance to read line by line through entire detailed documents. For good reasons: those things are as dry as sand, and about as fun. TIM's dossiers are more or less the same as your Shepard's pre-service history: short, to the point, and vague for story purposes and not for lack.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:40 .

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...

If you think their track record is particularly strong, or that successful research usually involves the death of your research team, you're welcome to them.

Sucessful research is sucessful Look, I've never argued that Cerberus is a bastion of ethics. Is Cerberus callous? Definitely. Will Cerberus use research gained to make humanity the strongest power in the galaxy? For sure. Will Cerberus sacrifice lives in the persuit of human dominance. Definitely. However, as to the other charges:

Are they incompetent?  No, they do get results and get enough results to keep funding flowing and gaining willing allies within the alliance.

Does TIM want to be the next galactic emperor? People are entitled to think what they want about his ambitions, but seriously there is no real evidence of this.

Does wanting human dominance make you a racist or xenophobe? Of course not. Dominance doesn't mean acting like a white plantation owner in Uncle Tom's Cabin. It means being miliarily and economically powerful, like the US today is in the current geopolitical situation.

Is Cerberus a bigger threat than the reapers? Seriously judging by some posts here, people think they are. They already judge the reapers are doomed to oblivion and are looking at the post reaper galaxy when deciding how to act toward ceberus. In that respect, they're not taking the problem at hand seriously.

Is Cerberus a worthwhile ally to have? I don't see why not. They ressurect you, give you intel, a plan to stop the collectors. a state of the art ship, tons of good weapons and armor. I honestly don't see a reason why you'd want to burn bridges on what you assume might happen, rather than what does happen.

Modifié par mosor, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:46 .

[Xilizhra]

The same thing when the Turians 'developed' the Thannix canon, or when the Alliance developed fighter carriers and the stealth frigate concept. Another military technological development, which has never been barred by the Council. Humanity is infamous for being innovative in the galactic scene.

I hope that total reliance on Cerberus' donations being kept secret works for you. Actually, I don't, because I think that bolstering Cerberus is wrong anyway, though if you've already pre-****ed galactic unity by being Renegade-y, Cerberus' iron fist may be the only way life (read: humans) can survive at all. Until TIM turns everyone into smoothies for salvation through destruction.

The fact that TIM was able to bring about the fall of the Broker, but not the other way around, is a rather strong indicator that there are things TIM knows that the Broker didn't. So is the admission by the Broker that Cerberus had deciphering technologies in relation to the Geth that the Broker didn't (and now the Broker's agents are being rooted/turned by Cerberus).

Cerberus didn't bring about the fall of the Broker; they got one lead that was only turned into concrete information by Liara. SB's intelligence had thoroughly penetrated Cerberus already, judging by his own dossiers, Cerberus may have had greater technological development than the SB (since the SB has no science division), but Cerberus science is both a crapshoot and tends to be deeply unethical.

Does TIM want to be the next galactic emperor? People are entitled to think what they want about his ambitions, but seriously there is no real evidence of this.

We do know that he's a control freak and has personally supervised all of Cerberus' actions. He's definitely evil and ambitious, and both are reasons to worry.

Does wanting human dominance make you a racist or xenophobe? Of course not. Dominance doesn't mean acting like a white plantation owner in Uncle Tom's Cabin. It means being miliarily and economically powerful, like the US today is in the current geopolitical situation.

So... wanting power for the hell of it vs. wanting power because you think you're better than other people. I'm not sure how much better the first one is.

Is Cerberus a worthwhile ally to have? I don't see why not. They ressurect you, give you intel, a plan to stop the collectors. a state of the art ship, tons of good weapons and armor. I honestly don't see a reason why you'd want to burn bridges on what you assume might happen, rather than what does happen.

They've given me a lot. Thankfully, I can keep it all without maintaining good relations with them. Without the base, they have nothing to offer me anymore, and with it, they're a threat to galactic unity.

[smudboy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aye. Can you imagine how terrible it would be if they provided weapons to the Alliance or undefended colonies, gave Shepard intel that Liara couldn't, or used their exclusive research into the Reapers against them?

An utter catastrophe, I tell you.

I see what you did there.  And someone responded.  That's...well, please continue then.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The same thing when the Turians 'developed' the Thannix canon, or when the Alliance developed fighter carriers and the stealth frigate concept. Another military technological development, which has never been barred by the Council. Humanity is infamous for being innovative in the galactic scene.

I hope that total reliance on Cerberus' donations being kept secret works for you. Actually, I don't, because I think that bolstering Cerberus is wrong anyway, though if you've already pre-****ed galactic unity by being Renegade-y, Cerberus' iron fist may be the only way life (read: humans) can survive at all. Until TIM turns everyone into smoothies for salvation through destruction.

When was total (or, implied, sole) reliance on Cerberus ever implied?

You asked how galactic stability would be changed (for the worse) if Cerberus gave the Alliance tech from the Collector Base. I pointed out three cases where powers came out with propriety new military technologies. Where does sole reliance on Cerberus come from? Are you going to stick to your own point or not?

Cerberus didn't bring about the fall of the Broker; they got one lead that was only turned into concrete information by Liara. SB's intelligence had thoroughly penetrated Cerberus already, judging by his own dossiers, Cerberus may have had greater technological development than the SB (since the SB has no science division), but Cerberus science is both a crapshoot and tends to be deeply unethical.

...that's a rather long way of saying 'Cerberus pushed the ball that rolled over the Shadow Broker' while trying to deny it.

The SB's intelligence penetration of Cerberus is also shattered, thanks to the mission. You can read it in TIM's post-mission summary. Without that penetration, Liara won't be able to know as much about Cerberus, what Cerberus knows, or the resources only Cerberus has to know things.

They've given me a lot. Thankfully, I can keep it all without maintaining good relations with them. Without the base, they have nothing to offer me anymore, and with it, they're a threat to galactic unity.

If you want to kill the goose with the golden egg, sure.

[Xilizhra]

When was total (or, implied, sole) reliance on Cerberus ever implied?



You asked how galactic stability would be changed (for the worse) if Cerberus gave the Alliance tech from the Collector Base. I pointed out three cases where powers came out with propriety new military technologies. Where does sole reliance on Cerberus come from? Are you going to stick to your own point or not?

Forgive me, I was grammatically inexact. I meant "total reliance on the secrecy."

The SB's intelligence penetration of Cerberus is also shattered, thanks to the mission. You can read it in TIM's post-mission summary. Without that penetration, Liara won't be able to know as much about Cerberus, what Cerberus knows, or the resources only Cerberus has to know things.

How irritating. I'd personally suggest to Liara that she get on with reinfiltrating Cerberus posthaste, then, which I'm quite sure she can. And Cerberus may have pushed the ball, but it by no means created it.

If you want to kill the goose with the golden egg, sure.

They have no further golden eggs, unless I give them one that could poison the rest of the galaxy.

[Inverness Moon]

Xilizhra wrote...

We do know that he's a control freak and has personally supervised all of Cerberus' actions. He's definitely evil and ambitious, and both are reasons to worry.

Good and evil is relative, despite what BioWare wants you to think. You may think TIM is some boring cliche evil mastermind, but I don't. I'm looking forward to the upcoming comic on his origins.

[Kavadas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does TIM want to be the next galactic emperor? People are entitled to think what they want about his ambitions, but seriously there is no real evidence of this.

He's definitely evil and ambitious, and both are reasons to worry.

Is he evil?  It seemed to me that ME2 was very careful about separating Cerberus' unethical, and mostly failed, projects from TIM himself. 

Granted, I haven't read any of the novels so I have no idea how they depict TIM but everytime Cerberus does something horrible or unethical in ME2 there is always some story element where the actors involved clearly expose their fear of TIM uncovering what they've really done.

This happens both in Jack's loyalty mission and again in Overlord.  Fear of TIM drives agents to do heinous acts to get the results TIM wants but they also fear TIM's judgement and reprisal if he ever uncovered their full methods.

In a way, Cerberus reminds me of a very proactive and clandestine Project for the New American Century.

All that being said, I'm certainly a Renegon at heart and I'm biding my time until I can get some type revenge for Admiral Kahoku's murder.

Modifié par Kavadas, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

When was total (or, implied, sole) reliance on Cerberus ever implied?

You asked how galactic stability would be changed (for the worse) if Cerberus gave the Alliance tech from the Collector Base. I pointed out three cases where powers came out with propriety new military technologies. Where does sole reliance on Cerberus come from? Are you going to stick to your own point or not?

Forgive me, I was grammatically inexact. I meant "total reliance on the secrecy."

The same sort and level of reliance that already exists for the stuff Cerberus passes along. There's no 'built by Cerberus' label needed: the technologies can be 'invented' by some Alliance team, Cerberus front company, or any number of methods.

Call them developed from a lab on Noveria, even: the Council effectively allows illegal research on such worlds, and yet freely contracts those companies. 

How irritating. I'd personally suggest to Liara that she get on with reinfiltrating Cerberus posthaste, then, which I'm quite sure she can. And Cerberus may have pushed the ball, but it by no means created it.

The ball was Cerberus's. Who else do you credit for getting the most crucial catalyst and getting it moving? Shepard was just a delivery boy to get it from TIM to Liara.

Liara can try re-infiltrating, but creating a network is a far harder task than expanding one, and with the insight of the Broker's previous network and attempt, it will be much harder as Cerberus would know what sort of signs to look for.

And, of course, Liara more or less owes TIM a favor now, and TIM knows where Liara lives. That doesn't mean that she can't do anything, but Liara and TIM aren't enemies, and if she were to try to strike her own base (and herself) would be open to retaliation. Liara's motives for eminity towards TIM are far less clear, considering so far her interactions with Cerberus have been quite beneficial (bringing Shepard back to life, accomplishing her two-year revenge quest), and that starting a fight would be extremely painful for her new group (and her) as well.

They have no further golden eggs, unless I give them one that could poison the rest of the galaxy.

I'm curious where you get the idea that Cerberus is suddenly incapable or disinclined of further technological development. Did they just stop researching more weapons, armors, and space ships with the latest DLC and Normandy SR-2? Have they given up on exploring high-reward vectors of research, like biotic suppression technology or Geth control? 

Cerberus was quite capable of getting you high-tech goodies before the Collector Base, but now they're suddenly incapable of anything more? 

Yeah. Uhuh.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[smudboy]

Kavadas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Does TIM want to be the next galactic emperor? People are entitled to think what they want about his ambitions, but seriously there is no real evidence of this.

He's definitely evil and ambitious, and both are reasons to worry.

Is he evil?  It seemed to me that ME2 was very careful about separating Cerberus' unethical, and mostly failed, projects from TIM himself. 

Granted, I haven't read any of the novels so I have no idea how they depict TIM but everytime Cerberus does something horrible or unethical in ME2 there is always some story element where the actors involved clearly expose their fear of TIM uncovering what they've really done.

This happens both in Jack's loyalty mission and again in Overlord.  Fear of TIM drives agents to do heinous acts to get the results TIM wants but they also fear TIM's judgement and reprisal if he ever uncovered their full methods.

In a way, Cerberus reminds me of a very proactive and clandestine Project for the New American Century.

This is a good question.

We'd like to think TIM as an evil mastermind, and some morally gray fellow, but we never see an example of that.  With Pragia and Overlord, TIM was in the dark on what was really going on.

I'd say that TIM allows other people to push themselves to conduct evil, or morally gray things, like Pragia and Overlord.  He doesn't condone it, but he isn't against it, provided he gets results (as any producer really cares about.)  This is evidenced by the two types of emails provided after Project Overlord:

Paragon:
"I understand you've taken Dr. Archer's brother to Grissom Academy. I'm familiar with their work; it should be a good home for him. I don't condone Dr. Archer's actions, but they did provide a breakthrough we've been sorely lacking thus far. We'll likely never find another individual with David's unique talents. Though your decision is understandable, it has set our efforts to understand the geth back several years."

Renegade:
"I've just been made aware of the transgressions that occurred during Project Overlord. Dr. Archer went too far in his experiments. That said, I admire your resolve in handling the situation. David will get the best medical care Cerberus can provide, and his talents will also remain vital to our understanding of the geth. I appreciate you keeping our overall goals in mind, even under difficult moral circumstances. That's why I brought you on board."

With the Collector base, there's absolutely nothing bad, good, evil, right or wrong about it. It's just tech.

[JPXD]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Why is it that nobody likes TIM anyway?

I mean...that cigar.

When I first met TIM I spazzed out to discover he was voiced by Martin Sheen. I tried my damnest to try and like his character because I personally like Martin Sheen as an actor/person. But after the Collector Ship mission, where he sent you into a trap and thought nothing of it, I was done. Screw Martin Sheen I thought, he's being an ass. I can't trust somebody who would knowingly throw away an entire crew of people without a blink of an eye, let alone like him.

The reason why I blew up the Collector ship is very straight forward: Anything that is remotely related to reaper technology could be a giant trap. Look at what the IFF did, what do you think and entire ship could do?

I was not taking any chances.

I was also rewarded with a great cutscene.