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[Dean_the_Young]

Blue explosions are better.

[Xilizhra]

The same sort and level of reliance that already exists for the stuff Cerberus passes along. There's no 'built by Cerberus' label needed: the technologies can be 'invented' by some Alliance team, Cerberus front company, or any number of methods.



Call them developed from a lab on Noveria, even: the Council effectively allows illegal research on such worlds, and yet freely contracts those companies.

Regardless, I prefer not to risk it.

The ball was Cerberus's. Who else do you credit for getting the most crucial catalyst and getting it moving? Shepard was just a delivery boy to get it from TIM to Liara.



Liara can try re-infiltrating, but creating a network is a far harder task than expanding one, and with the insight of the Broker's previous network and attempt, it will be much harder as Cerberus would know what sort of signs to look for.



And, of course, Liara more or less owes TIM a favor now, and TIM knows where Liara lives. That doesn't mean that she can't do anything, but Liara and TIM aren't enemies, and if she were to try to strike her own base (and herself) would be open to retaliation. Liara's motives for eminity towards TIM are far less clear, considering so far her interactions with Cerberus have been quite beneficial (bringing Shepard back to life, accomplishing her two-year revenge quest), and that starting a fight would be extremely painful for her new group (and her) as well.

Don't worry. I wouldn't provoke a fight between my love and Cerberus unless the latter did something quite stupid (which I think they'll do, somehow).

I'm curious where you get the idea that Cerberus is suddenly incapable or disinclined of further technological development. Did they just stop researching more weapons, armors, and space ships with the latest DLC and Normandy SR-2? Have they given up on exploring high-reward vectors of research, like biotic suppression technology or Geth control?



Cerberus was quite capable of getting you high-tech goodies before the Collector Base, but now they're suddenly incapable of anything more?



Yeah. Uhuh.

Not worth it. Galactic unity is more important.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...
Regardless, I prefer not to risk it.

What risk? Because the consequence that a criminal organization has been secretly
giving technology to a power which openly hunts them down as a matter of
policy is... far, far greater than the benefits of those developments
in a war of survival?

Cerberus secretly arranging to give things to the Alliance with the Alliance's knowledge doesn't damn the Alliance. To the Council and the Alliance all it reveals is few Alliance officials with criminal connections, which is neither unique to the Alliance nor does it prevent galactic cooperation in the face of extinction (or any other time, really).

(Given, you know, the Council and Alliance have always known Cerberus's mission state.)

Not worth it. Galactic unity is more important.

Uh... what?

What does this have to do with claiming that Cerberus can't give anything of value without the Collector Base? How do you propose to stop them from doing this either?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:44 .

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Regardless, I prefer not to risk it.

What risk? Because the consequence that a criminal organization has been secretly
giving technology to a power which openly hunts them down as a matter of
policy is... far, far greater than the benefits of those developments
in a war of survival?

Cerberus secretly arranging to give things to the Alliance with the Alliance's knowledge doesn't damn the Alliance. To the Council and the Alliance all it reveals is few Alliance officials with criminal connections, which is neither unique to the Alliance nor does it prevent galactic cooperation in the face of extinction (or any other time, really).

(Given, you know, the Council and Alliance have always known Cerberus's mission state.)

Not worth it. Galactic unity is more important.

Uh... what?

What does this have to do with claiming that Cerberus can't give anything of value without the Collector Base? How do you propose to stop them from doing this either?

I should probably clarify things, since I may have spoken without fully thinking things through earlier. If Cerberus sits back and quietly works on non-torture-related technological developments, passing them to the Alliance but staying in the shadows, then I'll have no problems with them.

[smudboy]

JPXD wrote...
When I first met TIM I spazzed out to discover he was voiced by Martin Sheen. I tried my damnest to try and like his character because I personally like Martin Sheen as an actor/person. But after the Collector Ship mission, where he sent you into a trap and thought nothing of it, I was done. Screw Martin Sheen I thought, he's being an ass. I can't trust somebody who would knowingly throw away an entire crew of people without a blink of an eye, let alone like him.

The reason why I blew up the Collector ship is very straight forward: Anything that is remotely related to reaper technology could be a giant trap. Look at what the IFF did, what do you think and entire ship could do?

I was not taking any chances.

I was also rewarded with a great cutscene.

I find issue with the lying, and how telling the truth would've tipped off the Collectors, but TIM explains why he did it: for the good of the mission.  He knew very well what Shepard was capable of.  "Without that information we don't reach the Collector homeworld, and you and every other human may as well be dead.  It was a trap, but I was confident in your abilities.  And don't forget EDI.  The Collectors couldn't have anticipated her."
Shepard: "You could've told me the plan.  You say I'm important, but you sure try hard to get me killed."
TIM: "I needed the Collectors to believe they had the upper hand...besides, I wouldn't have sent you in if I didn't think you could succeed."
TIM: "In the meantime, I suggest you tell your crew I didn't risk their lives unnecessarily..."
TIM: "Lied to us.  Used us.  Needed access to the Collector databanks. Necessary risk."
Shepard: "There really wasn't any other choice."

Woo woo!  TIM's unorthodox, gives info on a need to know basis, and produces results.  Don't trust him, but he's the kind of guy that gets stuff done.  He's the best person to be put in charge of researching the base.

Modifié par smudboy, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:55 .

[smudboy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Blue explosions are better.

Blue explosions, blue chicks, blue aura's around ones body before turning oneself into a locomotive...

I am seeing a pattern.

[Xilizhra]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not worth it. Galactic unity is more important.

Exactly. If we throw enough fodder at the Reapers they might reach their kill limit and shut down.

At least we'll have the fodder instead of getting involved in a humans-vs.-everyone else civil war because no one else believes the Reapers are coming right now.

[Dean_the_Young]

And how, pray tell, is this human-vs-galactic civil war started from the Collector Base decision?



Please, in the logical steps.



1) Shepard, rogue spectre, not part of the Alliance gives base to Cerberus.

2) Cerberus, not part of the Alliance, hunted by the Alliance, researches technology.

3) Cerberus secretly arranges benefits of technology to find their way to Alliance with Alliance's knowledge or permission

4) ???

5) Galaxy hates Alliance, which had no part in any previous actions

6) Civil War!

[Xilizhra]

I should have thought the line out better. It was facetious in an attempt to match Shan's post: I don't actually think there's a galactic civil war on the cards. I do think that if this information ever got out by some means, the rest of Citadel space would distrust humanity even more, and some might very well be motivated to attack Cerberus, which the Alliance might defend...

[JPXD]

smudboy wrote...

JPXD wrote...
When I first met TIM I spazzed out to discover he was voiced by Martin Sheen. I tried my damnest to try and like his character because I personally like Martin Sheen as an actor/person. But after the Collector Ship mission, where he sent you into a trap and thought nothing of it, I was done. Screw Martin Sheen I thought, he's being an ass. I can't trust somebody who would knowingly throw away an entire crew of people without a blink of an eye, let alone like him.

The reason why I blew up the Collector ship is very straight forward: Anything that is remotely related to reaper technology could be a giant trap. Look at what the IFF did, what do you think and entire ship could do?

I was not taking any chances.

I was also rewarded with a great cutscene.

I find issue with the lying, and how telling the truth would've tipped off the Collectors, but TIM explains why he did it: for the good of the mission.  He knew very well what Shepard was capable of.  "Without that information we don't reach the Collector homeworld, and you and every other human may as well be dead.  It was a trap, but I was confident in your abilities.  And don't forget EDI.  The Collectors couldn't have anticipated her."
Shepard: "You could've told me the plan.  You say I'm important, but you sure try hard to get me killed."
TIM: "I needed the Collectors to believe they had the upper hand...besides, I wouldn't have sent you in if I didn't think you could succeed."
TIM: "In the meantime, I suggest you tell your crew I didn't risk their lives unnecessarily..."
TIM: "Lied to us.  Used us.  Needed access to the Collector databanks. Necessary risk."
Shepard: "There really wasn't any other choice."

Woo woo!  TIM's unorthodox, gives info on a need to know basis, and produces results.  Don't trust him, but he's the kind of guy that gets stuff done.  He's the best person to be put in charge of researching the base.

I don't really understand what would have changed if Sheppard knew about the ship being active. It's not like Sheppard was going to just walk around the ship unarmed and unarmored...how would Sheppard have acted differently if she knew? I think it's a crappy excuse, and it pissed me off. 

I'm all for unorthodox. But TIM is just ridiculous.

[Xilizhra]

Shandepared wrote...

The other races are already gunning for Cerberus.

Rightfully so. No need to make them more powerful, and thus make the conflict messier.

[JPXD]

Shandepared wrote...

JPXD wrote...

I don't really understand what would have changed if Sheppard knew about the ship being active.

I think what TIM feared was the infiltration of the Normandy by Collector agents. The Shadow Broker had ways of spying on the Normandy, after all.

Well he did a terrible job preventing that...

But I'm also confused as to what you're referring too. If you're talking about DLC I haven't played any of it. (I'm a bit of a latecomer to the ME series, just finished ME2 yesterday) -- I'm specifically talking about the mission where you find out about the reaper IFF and explore what TIM tells you is an abandoned Collector Ship. This is, of course, a lie -- and endangered the entire crew.

I don't understand how TIM can justify not warning about potential threat with the idea that if Shepard knew she would act differently. We're talking about an Alliance trained Spectre -- not some idiot just exploring. Shepard would assume the ship was a trap and act accordingly. TIM should have given full disclosure about that mission -- that's why I don't trust him and why I enjoyed telling him to take a hike.

[Xilizhra]

We might get better technology, we might get another total catastrophe. Cerberus has its successes, but they seem to be at their best when doing things slowly, like bringing Shepard back over two years and co-developing the Normandy to use its schematics for a private vessel. In addition, the former had an extremely specific and tight standard of success (bring Shepard back exactly as she was), and the latter didn't have much urgency to it. On the other hand, trying to rush in new technological developments in the shadow of the Reapers would, I think, go poorly.



In any case, if Cerberus really wants to stop the Reapers above all else, it'll step into line with the rest of the galaxy and, if the Council or I require it, freely surrender any relevant data to everyone involved in fighting the Reapers.

[Xilizhra]

Dean said it himself: Cerberus can keep developing new technology. That it will then share with the rest of the galaxy, no strings attached, if it wants to keep on existing. But I wouldn't want to give TIM the impression that he has a lick of power in making decisions of galactic importance any longer. It's a bad one to cultivate.

[epeeist]

I (obviously!) haven't read all the pages in this thread.



For roleplaying reasons, consistency with decisions both in ME1 and ME2, destroying the base seemed better. Even a renegade playthrough, mistrust of Cerberus might "justify" destroying the base. A few factors were: (1) Cerberus couldn't be trusted, certainly with an impregnable base and advanced Collector technology (no-one without IFF and codes could get through safely). A galaxy controlled by Cerberus (which has engaged in experimentation on multiple intelligent species not just humans, is focused on power for humanity at all costs) and its successors would be better for most intelligent species (including humans) than losing to the Reapers, but not by much. Cooperating with Cerberus against the Collectors was justified; handing over a Collector base was not. (2) Not only a Reaper, but now the Collectors, have been defeated by human/turian/asari/etc. personnel and technology - so it is not necessary to pay the price of using and being changed by Reaper/Collector technology to defeat them. (3) Related to that, the game in ME1 and ME2 consistently and repeatedly points out (from the gameworld's designers view) the dangers of Reaper technology - not only the influence it exerts, but more generally, as Legion (and to some extent Mordin) points out, the effects of using another's technology instead of developing one's own affects/stunts a species' growth. Regardless of whether or not that is true (or to what extent) in the real world, in the ME world, it seems to be "true".



The game deliberately presents some choices that aren't perfect. E.g. in ME1, freeing the rachni queen or killing it, no 3rd option to e.g. keep it imprisoned until it could be transported to a controlled system (vis-a-vis the Krogan, i.e. avoid genocide but protect the rest of the galaxy). ME2, no 3rd option to not destroy the base but rather to turn it over to the Alliance instead of Cerberus, it's destroy it or give it to Cerberus, no 3rd option.



As for the discussion about the IM not revealing the Collector ship to be a trap, he's testing Shepard. If after everything including the Lazarus project and with a few missions under his belt, Shepard is unable to deal with a dangerous situation like this (going on to the ship, although believing it to be disabled there is every expectation of having to fight, the only surprise is that it was a trap, not that fighting is required) then how will Shepard possibly be good/skilled enough to defeat the Collectors? If Shepard fails, write off the Lazarus project as an unsuccessful investment and go to alternative plan B to defeat the Collectors (whatever it might be). The IM is the type of character to have multiple irons in the fire (multiple projects).

[Xilizhra]

Again, I don't want Cerberus having any more power, or any leverage with the rest of the galaxy at all. They're a polarizing and disruptive force.

[Xilizhra]

Only if you stay in the Terminus Systems and never expect any support. Their recognition has no real power, but I think it'll improve once I kick Cerberus to the curb. Giving them any intelligence that EDI can provide would be helpful as well.



And I have some fairly substantial data that EDI recovered from the Collector base as it is, which may be enough to sway the Council's opinion. If not... I have other allies. The geth and rachni are both taking active steps against the Reapers as well, for instance, and the geth are far more powerful than Cerberus. Especially since I rewrote the heretics.