3478 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Only if you stay in the Terminus Systems and never expect any support. Their recognition has no real power, but I think it'll improve once I kick Cerberus to the curb. Giving them any intelligence that EDI can provide would be helpful as well.

And I have some fairly substantial data that EDI recovered from the Collector base as it is, which may be enough to sway the Council's opinion. If not... I have other allies. The geth and rachni are both taking active steps against the Reapers as well, for instance, and the geth are far more powerful than Cerberus. Especially since I rewrote the heretics.

True.  MP3 files are probably as effective as JPGs.

[TuringPoint]

The Thanix is actually a Turian discovery. EDI, admittedly good, as is procuring the IFF.  Both of which were risky.

Still not so sure about the base itself though. I can see how an AI with anti-reaper cyberwarfare algorithms is useful to develop, but developing a Reaper can only result in bad ****, sorry.

Cerberus has its uses, but Cerberus isn't always right.  They don't try to always be right.  It's a bunch of people grasping at straws, and the collector's base is the wrong straw to pick as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par Alocormin, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Xilizhra]

That assumes the Council will believe you about anything. That assumes they won't declare you rogue for curing the genophage, making an alliance with the geth, murdering a Spectre, and going back on your word by helping Thane and Garrus on the Citadel!



All you got from the Collector base was a few pictures. If the Council doesn't believe you then you're going to have a hell of a lot more polarization and disruption than if you'd just stuck with Cerberus. The difference here will be that you won't have Cerberus to fall back on because you gave them the finger. You won't have any new technologies being developed to help you (no really useful ones) because you blew up the Collector base.



If however the Council kicks you out and you then turn to your 'other' allies that's whe you're going to be poised to start a civil war. The Council declares you a criminal and your response is to craft an army? Good move.

Right. First of all, I haven't cured the genophage; Mordin's got the data locked away somewhere. Second, the Council seems to rely totally on C-Sec to know what's going on in the Wards; Captain Bailey appears to be in charge of all C-Sec activity on Zakera, and he's friendly enough with me that I don't think he'd dangle me out to the Council, whom he seems to disdain. Third, saying that I only got a few pictures from the Collector base is just insane; it was a datapad, not a camera, and it can probably hold more than one screen of information at a time.

True. MP3 files are probably as effective as JPGs.

Considering that Saren was convicted based on an MP3, I think that the future looks bright.

[epeeist]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, I don't want Cerberus having any more power, or any leverage with the rest of the galaxy at all. They're a polarizing and disruptive force.

They're a fringe group, nothing more. Apparently they aren't polarizing enough to stop the Council from reinstating you as a Spectre despite you working for them.

Your argument is hollow and poorly thought out.

On top of all that, Cerberus is your only real ally. They're the only group taking steps against the Reapers and you are actively sabotaging them.

Remember, it's a game. The writers and developers in ME3 could make any decision from ME1 or ME2, from destroying or saving the base to as seemingly trivial as having a drink at a bar (lingering effects from that poison?), anything, turn out to have drastic unforeseen consequences. Complaining about the validity of someone's argument on this point is... [negative comment omitted].

As presented in the game, one's character is reinstated as a Spectre only because of overwhelming gratitude toward the protagonist (I'm referring to the ME1 paragon ending), not any trust of Cerberus (referred to I think as a treason or terrorist group by the Council). LOTSB info (Adm. Hackett intercepted communication) points out how the Alliance itself sees this as a huge issue. Anyone other than Shepard wouldn't get away with it. Even then, no additional aid is provided.

Having an ally doesn't mean that ally is trustworthy, either during the conflict or afterwards. Cooperating with Cerberus in the short term is, as presented in the game, justified not so much because of the longer-term danger of the Reapers, but because of the short-term immediate danger of colonies disappearing without proven cause and only the hypothesis it's the Collectors working with/for the Reapers. Trusting Cerberus long-term is not presented as (necessarily) justified, however. For someone to think that, based on the "evidence" presented in the game, that the better course (best likely outcome for humanity and the other races of the galaxy in ME3) is to destroy the base rather than allow Cerberus to have it, might or might not produce the "best" outcome in ME3 (that's for Bioware to decide!) but is not inherently unreasonable.

[TuringPoint]

Shandepared wrote...

They could develop much better and more useful technology with the base. The greatest technologies developed so far are EDI and the thanix, both of which came from a Reaper.

That is definitely something we already knew.

The Thanix does not justify Cerberus taking the base, because it is not Cerberus that figured it out. Perhaps you could explain what you meant by that rather than pretending we all must agree with you if you bludgeon us enough with your arguments?

Modifié par Alocormin, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Dave of Canada]

Alocormin wrote...

Still not so sure about the base itself though. I can see how an AI with anti-reaper cyberwarfare algorithms is useful to develop, but developing a Reaper can only result in bad ****, sorry.

They won't make a Reaper.

• Cerberus isn't big enough to kidnap bajillions of people, it has maybe 150 people active at a time (excluding the front companies and such, yet they wouldn't do anything like that unless it was a Doctor Who episode).
• TIM isn't a moron, he knows fully well the risks of creating a Reaper (Don't mention Grayson, Grayson was only to study the effects of indoctrination / reaper tech on organics. They only screwed up when the Turians showed up.)

[TuringPoint]

What is the technology useful for? Building a Reaper. That's what the base was for. There was no intact Reaper; only the remains of a Reaper larvae. That isn't even what TIM said he wanted though.



It's not necessarily that TIM and Cerberus would build a Reaper, but that the potential would be there.



I respect that you believe the technology could be used for something to fight Reapers, but I don't think it can. We already have an AI technology and weapons that can help fight them.

[TuringPoint]

Shandepared wrote...

EDI was made by Cerberus though and she was even more useful than the thanix was. Thus, studying Reaper tech is very useful. Thus, we should keep the base for Cerberus to study.

It is useful, but what do you think the facility can be used for?  We have an AI, we have weapons technology.  Can you be more specific about what you think Cerberus will find, or gain for humanity?

I bludgeon you with my arguments because at heart I'm an optimist and I'd like to think that someday you'll see reason.

Of course you think that.  I never suspected otherwise.

I also want to point out that a fringe group is one that lacks influence or mainstream respect.  If they gained influence, they could no longer be considered a fringe group.

Modifié par Alocormin, 16 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Dave of Canada]

Alocormin wrote...

I respect that you believe the technology could be used for something to fight Reapers, but I don't think it can. We already have an AI technology and weapons that can help fight them.

Here's how I view things:

With the base, you can study indoctrination and other Reaper weaponry / defenses. That information alone IMO is enough reason to keep it, yet we'd probably be able to get particle weaponry / seeker swarms and such to intergrate into our tech itself. When the Reapers come, I'd like to have the galaxy at it's strongest to fight back and come out victorious. If the Reapers win, they won't care if Shepard was being "honorable" by blowing up the base.

That, and TIM can always be dealt with later if the Base does become a problem.

[lovgreno]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

I respect that you believe the technology could be used for something to fight Reapers, but I don't think it can. We already have an AI technology and weapons that can help fight them.

Here's how I view things:

With the base, you can study indoctrination and other Reaper weaponry / defenses. That information alone IMO is enough reason to keep it, yet we'd probably be able to get particle weaponry / seeker swarms and such to intergrate into our tech itself. When the Reapers come, I'd like to have the galaxy at it's strongest to fight back and come out victorious. If the Reapers win, they won't care if Shepard was being "honorable" by blowing up the base.

That, and TIM can always be dealt with later if the Base does become a problem.

Those are good enough reasons for keeping the base. However it is only one of many possible outcomes of the decision to keep the base. Cerberus may not find what they want and they may lose controll again. This time Shepard may not be able to clean up their mess. This time it may even cost the galaxy too much and lead to defeat when the reapers come.

So is it worth the risk considering how little we know about the base? It might be, but actualy both keeping it and blowing it up is to take a chance and hope for the best in the long run.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Xilizhra wrote...

We might get better technology, we might get another total catastrophe. Cerberus has its successes, but they seem to be at their best when doing things slowly, like bringing Shepard back over two years and co-developing the Normandy to use its schematics for a private vessel. In addition, the former had an extremely specific and tight standard of success (bring Shepard back exactly as she was), and the latter didn't have much urgency to it. On the other hand, trying to rush in new technological developments in the shadow of the Reapers would, I think, go poorly.

So you think starting from complete scratch in the mist of Reaper doubt and skepticism will be faster? 

The Illusive Man has a very predictable way of doing things, he assigns a group to get something done, checking in from time to time... if things go wrong, TIM sends someone else in.  That's all he's done and that's all he seems set to do for the sake of his own safety.  If people working for him decide to screw up or go evil on others, TIM has no immediate way of stopping it.


Practically every weapon you use, EDI, and the Normandy itself are the result of Cerberus research and development.  Normandy and the Suicide Mission proves they are willing to work with other races to the end goal of saving lives (heck most of your crew are alien).  You would not have survived during Either Time had it not been for Cerberus's research and technology.

[General User]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We might get better technology, we might get another total catastrophe. Cerberus has its successes, but they seem to be at their best when doing things slowly, like bringing Shepard back over two years and co-developing the Normandy to use its schematics for a private vessel. In addition, the former had an extremely specific and tight standard of success (bring Shepard back exactly as she was), and the latter didn't have much urgency to it. On the other hand, trying to rush in new technological developments in the shadow of the Reapers would, I think, go poorly.

So you think starting from complete scratch in the mist of Reaper doubt and skepticism will be faster? 

The Illusive Man has a very predictable way of doing things, he assigns a group to get something done, checking in from time to time... if things go wrong, TIM sends someone else in.  That's all he's done and that's all he seems set to do for the sake of his own safety.  If people working for him decide to screw up or go evil on others, TIM has no immediate way of stopping it.


Practically every weapon you use, EDI, and the Normandy itself are the result of Cerberus research and development.  Normandy and the Suicide Mission proves they are willing to work with other races to the end goal of saving lives (heck most of your crew are alien).  You would not have survived during Either Time had it not been for Cerberus's research and technology.

Cerberus does what it feels it must to achieve its goals and objectives. If that means building a multi-racial team of super-commandos, so be it. If that means cutting edge R&D, so be it. If that means torture and murder (or the tacit approval thereof), so be it.
 
In ME2, Cerberus has a stated goal that is quite laudable; stopping the Collector attacks. But what is the organizations’ ultimate objective? Miranda gives it as “the advancement of the human race”, which is ambiguous at best. And I think everyone can achieve consensus on the idea that the Collector Base is a huge boon for Cerberus.
 
Put another way: if TIM woke up one morning in his perfect universe, what kind of universe would it be? 

[ERJAK2]

Anyone who thinks that tech is going to save the galaxy from the reapers should go replay the games. SHEPARD will save the galaxy from the reapers, likely single handedley. If they use some sort of construct or weapon it will be one that already exists, not one they develop in the limited time we have till the reapers arrival. Knowing this, that base was evil, and had tech specialized to analyzing organic species for possible liquification. The knowledge you could gain from would propably be limited to advance medical scans and building a structure in the center of the galaxy. That is if your science teams weren't all driven insane.

[Dean_the_Young]

A wild REAPER appears!



Shepard picks up a rock!



Shepard uses Rock Throw!



It's super effective!

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A wild REAPER appears!

Shepard picks up a rock!

Shepard uses Rock Throw!

It's super effective!

If it were anyone else besides Shepard I wouldn't belive you.

[Dave of Canada]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Anyone who thinks that tech is going to save the galaxy from the reapers should go replay the games. SHEPARD will save the galaxy from the reapers, likely single handedley.

Metagaming aside, no.

If they use some sort of construct or weapon it will be one that already exists, not one they develop in the limited time we have till the reapers arrival.

It'll take a few years before the Reapers arrive, in two years they managed to create the Thannix Cannon / EDI through technology that was extracted from bits and pieces of Reaper tech. A few years and the base itself? You've probably got a lot more than that.

Knowing this, that base was evil,

The base is a weapon. Is a gun or a knife considered evil because it killed innocent people? No, it's the user. You've wiped out the Collectors, you've just got their weapon in hand now.

The knowledge you could gain from would propably be limited to advance medical scans and building a structure in the center of the galaxy.

From the Reaper factory aspect:
You have a Reaper factory infront of you, you'd be able to research how to build one / deconstruct one and know each of it's technical flaws. You can research it's weaponry / defenses trying to learn more about it. Imagine being able to create defenses against indoctrination, you'd just have shut down one of the Reaper's more powerful tactics and weakened them severly (while keeping your forces strong!).

From the Collector aspect:
You're probably right about the medical scans and such, but the base was also where the Collectors stashed everything. Seeker Swarms / Particle Weaponry and such should come along with it.

That is if your science teams weren't all driven insane.

I don't see why they'd have indoctrination fields, they never expected anybody to even reach the base let alone take it and the Collectors were already mindless drones.

[Nightwriter]

There are some decisions I find it silly not to metagame.

For instance in real life I would have kept the base. Why? Because in real life I have full control over my behavior. If TIM starts to do something dangerous, I know in real life I can try to stop him. I can take steps.

In the game, your character can only do what BioWare allows you to do. You can pretty much bet TIM's going to do something at least a little bit sinister with the base, and you have no way to know if you'll be able to stop him in time.

[Dave of Canada]

Nightwriter wrote...

In the game, your character can only do what BioWare allows you to do. You can pretty much bet TIM's going to do something at least a little bit sinister with the base, and you have no way to know if you'll be able to stop him in time.

In the game, you can still threaten TIM after keeping the base. I'm pretty sure they'll add an option to hunt him down if he goes too far. But at least you've said you'd keep it in real life, that warms the heart because it seems like a lot of people would blow it up in real life too.

[Iakus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Here's how I view things:

With the base, you can study indoctrination and other Reaper weaponry / defenses. That information alone IMO is enough reason to keep it, yet we'd probably be able to get particle weaponry / seeker swarms and such to intergrate into our tech itself. When the Reapers come, I'd like to have the galaxy at it's strongest to fight back and come out victorious. If the Reapers win, they won't care if Shepard was being "honorable" by blowing up the base.

That, and TIM can always be dealt with later if the Base does become a problem.

Laudable goals.  The problerm is, Cerberus has shown that it can't even study a few Dragon's Teeth without getting dozens of people killed.

Don't get me wrong, I can definitely see the benefits of using the base to study Reaper technology.  Particularly studying indoctrionation, which is one of the Reapers' most insidius weapons.  Now, Cerberus will make their findings freely available to the galactic governments, right?  Good thing I have that asari "running gag" still alive as a backup plan...

Mordin's already created an effective counter to Seeker swarms, and we've demonstrated that biotic fields can repel large numbers of them.

Particle beam technology?  We've got the remains of the cruiser.  Here, my Shep will donate his portable one for the cause.  Now pardon me while he takes the Normandy a LONG way away from where they take it apart

[Barquiel]

Dave of Canada wrote...

In the game, you can still threaten TIM after keeping the base. I'm pretty sure they'll add an option to hunt him down if he goes too far.

I am not sure about that.

Take, for example, the "concentrate on Sovereign" option in ME1. You get the all-human council, Shep can't change it (if renegade). It seems to me that BW thinks...renegade=obsessed with human dominance

Modifié par Barquiel, 16 septembre 2010 - 10:57 .

[Iakus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

In the game, your character can only do what BioWare allows you to do. You can pretty much bet TIM's going to do something at least a little bit sinister with the base, and you have no way to know if you'll be able to stop him in time.

In the game, you can still threaten TIM after keeping the base. I'm pretty sure they'll add an option to hunt him down if he goes too far. But at least you've said you'd keep it in real life, that warms the heart because it seems like a lot of people would blow it up in real life too.

Meh, ideally, i'd have my crew studying it.  Not TIM's

"Miranda, how good are we with supplies?  Jacob, coordinate with Chakwas on a rotating schedule for away teams on the base.  They're to spend no more than three days at a time on the base, with regular physicals and brain scans.  Be careful of booby traps and use extreme caution.  this is Reaper tech, after all.  Mordin is research team leader (you said you liked challenges, Mordin)  Legion will study the cruiser.  Tali the Occulus wreckage.  We'll work out the ship debris field later.  Joker, prepare messages for Anderson and Liara, I've got a little suprise for them and will need their help in securing extra resources...

[AresXX7]

Nightwriter wrote...

In the game, your character can only do what BioWare allows you to do. You can pretty much bet TIM's going to do something at least a little bit sinister with the base, and you have no way to know if you'll be able to stop him in time.

Without having a third alternative -

This has been one of the key factors, for me, in choosing to destroy the base. The 'successes' of Cerberus haven't been strong enough for me to outweigh them against the failures or consequences. Because of this, I find it too risky to let them be the ones solely overseeing it's potentials. I would be more inclined to take a leap of faith, if it weren't for TIM's megalomaniac smile & speech over it. As it stands, I'm currently at a 65 - 35% split favoring the destruction of it.
I do know reviving Shep & creating EDI were huge pluses in their favor, and that some sacrifices must be made to achieve significant goals. But they haven't shown much inclination to keep from going too far or using enough safeguards to prevent their mistakes from escalating to catastrophic levels. IMO
 

There are some decisions I find it silly not to metagame.

True enough, though I wouldn't say 'silly', it does make it somewhat difficult for me not to have at least one game save that involves keeping the base.



ETA: I forgot to include first line.

Modifié par AriesXX7, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:43 .