3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

No Shand, destroying the one organization that believes in the Reapers and in preparing against the Reapers is clearly the best way to unify the galaxy against a threat they don't believe in.

[chris025657]

Xilizhra wrote...

chris025657 wrote...

Me too.

Even with my mostly paragon canon Shepard, I almost feel it's immoral to destroy the base in the face of total genocide at the hands of the Reapers given how many lives could possibly be saved with a greater understanding of their technology. 

Easy enough. Remind yourself of the many, many horrible risks it carries.

I see an asymmetry of risk in regards to keeping the collector base.  Even the worst possible failure of researching the base will never come close to the risk of total genocide by the significantly more advanced Reapers. 

Modifié par chris025657, 21 septembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Xilizhra]

The second one is easy enough; even if we learned how to penetrate the Reapers' shields (which is all we really need to know, seeing as how an unshielded Reaper can be blown up by a single shot from a frigate), how many people would trust knowledge gained from Cerberus? Even the Alliance would likely see it as a trick of sorts, especially if they tried to deliver it before the Reapers actually showed up. And I don't think Cerberus could take on the Reapers by itself. I also don't think TIM is mentally stable enough to be trusted with this sort of power, but you don't believe that anyway.

All of this ignores, however, the data EDI pulled from the Collector base even if you do blow it up.

I see an asymmetry of risk in regards to keeping the collector
base.  Even the worst possible failure of researching the base will
never come close to the risk of total genocide by the significantly more
advanced Reapers.

Galactic genocide that comes when TIM makes his bid for power using the Reapers as his reason, thus pissing off the rest of the galaxy. No, it's not definite, but actually getting the power you've sought for ages can do strange things to people.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2010 - 01:03 .

[Whatever42]

Xilizhra wrote...

It weakens Cerberus, or at least removes a source of power for them, thus promoting galactic unity. I'd say it's a decent enough gain; destroying Cerberus altogether would be better, but this is easier without them having the base.

I view it as WWII, the Allies are diametrically opposed to both the Soviets and Germans. However, its the Germans who are the immediate threat. So the Allies bolster the Soviets, who ultimately steamroll the Germans (2/3 of German forces were on the Russian front - when the Germans withdrew them for the battle of bulge, their entire Russian front collapsed). 

However, if the Allies would have tried to weaken the Soviets and the Germans took them out then the Allies would have faced 3x the forces and might have lost the war. 

Shepard can save the base, strengthening Cerberus, but also strengthen the Allies - save the council, save the rachni. Although, I can't bring myself to keep the genophage cure research either - that is insanely irresponsible.

[chris025657]

Xilizhra wrote...

I see an asymmetry of risk in regards to keeping the collector
base.  Even the worst possible failure of researching the base will
never come close to the risk of total genocide by the significantly more
advanced Reapers.

Galactic genocide that comes when TIM makes his bid for power using the Reapers as his reason, thus pissing off the rest of the galaxy. No, it's not definite, but actually getting the power you've sought for ages can do strange things to people.

I think its a really unsupported assertion that TIM wants to commit total galactic genocide. Bringing Shepard back, rebuilding the Normandy, and funding Shepard's mission shows that the Illusive truly wants to save humanity. Even though many Cerberus missions are misguided, the motivations behind them clearly show his desire to save lives, not gain power.

In contrast, the Reapers are known to want to commit total genocide and they've succeeded many times in the past. 

[Xilizhra]

I think its a really unsupported assertion that TIM wants to commit total galactic genocide. Bringing Shepard back, rebuilding the Normandy, and funding Shepard's mission shows that the Illusive truly wants to save humanity. Even though many Cerberus missions are misguided, the motivations behind them clearly show his desire to save lives, not gain power.

I didn't say TIM would be committing it; I said that Cerberus pissing off the rest of the galaxy could lead to a lot of infighting when the Reapers show up, making it easier for them to kill everyone.

[Xilizhra]

Probably by saying something along the lines of "The Reapers are coming, now fall in line behind humanity if you want any of this tech we found."

[chris025657]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think its a really unsupported assertion that TIM wants to commit total galactic genocide. Bringing Shepard back, rebuilding the Normandy, and funding Shepard's mission shows that the Illusive truly wants to save humanity. Even though many Cerberus missions are misguided, the motivations behind them clearly show his desire to save lives, not gain power.

I didn't say TIM would be committing it; I said that Cerberus pissing off the rest of the galaxy could lead to a lot of infighting when the Reapers show up, making it easier for them to kill everyone.

Sorry, I misunderstood your point.

However, I think the mission summaries make it clear that Cerberus is interested in maintaining galactic stability and strength in the face of the Reapers. They monitor the political situations on Tuchanka and the Migrant fleet for this purpose.

Modifié par chris025657, 21 septembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[Xilizhra]

Galactic unity, with them falling in line behind Cerberus. I think this was one of their intended purposes for Shepard, to use her as a sort of Cerberus-sponsored flag to rally around.

[Xilizhra]

The turians never shared the thanix with us, after all. It'd be hypocritical of them to refuse to ally with us because we won't divulge our greatest secrets.

They didn't think they were in a fight for survival then, whereas we would know it in this case, and so would everyone else. They might fall into line, they might not, but the fact that people won't be at their most helpful if they're pissed off at you doesn't mean that they can't help you if they're well-disposed towards you.

[Ser Isely]

Esternogligen wrote...

You all remember topics like this in ME1?

Oh... if you kill the council ME2 is gonna go in this direction, but if you save them it'll all play out like this...

BS

Anderson/Udina have absolutely no pull or say at all in Council decisions, and the new council makes the same exact final choice the old one would come to: banishing you to the Terminus because Bioware forces you to side with the organization that stabbed the Sole Survivor Shep in the back.

This will be no different.
At the beginning of ME3, the summary will read, "The Collector Base was lost due to Shepard destroying it / [lame Bioware-fabricated excuse]", and the game will take its singlular linear course defiant to all your previous decisions in ME1 and ME2.

Bite me, Bioware.

I think your on the right track, after just reading Retribution Cerberus "salvages" is the word they use (leaving your choice vague) some tech from the base and nearly screws the galaxy. So I figure may as well not blow up the base and keep Cerberus as an asset for the time being, I'll take all the allies I can get, TIM will get his eventually. Maybe there will be a benefit if you don't destroy it but I doubt there will be any grand plot changing effect.
On a side note l've always felt Bioware games, on my first play through ,seem so huge and with so many options but after a few goes it really isn't so, its a good magic trick though I love their games the first time the most.

Modifié par Ser Isely, 21 septembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Xilizhra]

So you'd rather have allies but inadequate tech, leaving you with no real strategy other than throwing everything you have at the Reapers and hoping you win? I don't think that's a good idea. Last time three separate fleets were decimated going into battle against just one Reaper and its geth allies. This time the Reapers may have few (or no) allies but to make up for that there will be many Reapers. We are going to very quickly run out of fleets if all we have is numbers.



That's why I feel that keeping the Collector base is the best way. We are never going to overcome the Reapers via' numbers alone. We need the right tools and the right strategy.

We can't do it through numbers alone or tech alone, in all likelihood. However, I consider numbers to be more important at this point in time, particularly because we did download a decent amount of Reaper data from the base even with us destroying it.

[Arijharn]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It weakens Cerberus, or at least removes a source of power for them, thus promoting galactic unity.

You have yet to explain how Cerberus threatens galactic unity, much less how galactic unity outweighs having adequate knowledge of our enemy to defeat them.

They don't worry about this shand because they know in their heart of hearts that everything will be okay in the end...

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

We can't do it through numbers alone or tech alone, in all likelihood. However, I consider numbers to be more important at this point in time, particularly because we did download a decent amount of Reaper data from the base even with us destroying it.

Why can't you keep the base and have the numbers?

[Xilizhra]

They don't worry about this shand because they know in their heart of hearts that everything will be okay in the end...

This is also the case. It's a pleasant enough feeling.

Why can't you keep the base and have the numbers?

Because keeping the base may be inimical to the numbers.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is also the case. It's a pleasant enough feeling.

To be honest, I think this is the crux of most people's decisions. My first ever playthrough was me basically choosing all the top right decisions but I have to admit I gain a greater sense of satisfaction in my games by playing to how I'd treat situations.

I may be reading way too much into it, but I sort of sense that the whole idea of the Collector Base decision to be some sort of philosophical quandary and that to be an 'efficient' leader you may have to get my hands dirty.

Xilizhra wrote...
Because keeping the base may be inimical to the numbers.

That can't be true, atm my sheps are basically:
a) Drawing widespread support presumably from the Geth, Krogan, Rachni and maybe even the Quarians (and if I had to choose between the Quarians and the Geth I would choose the Geth simply because of their technological superiority)
I should draw support from the Council species because by rights the Council 'owes me.' I doubt this would play out the way I would like but if I could convince the Asari or Salarian, they would force the Turian to comply. Note that I've left out the Human councillor simply because I view that while he is there he is definitely not a member of the 'old boys club' that seems to be truer than not for the Council.
c) I don't trust Cerberus other than in them supporting me to defeat the Reapers. If I had to maintain the balance of power between the burgeoning might of Humanity vs the Turian Heirarchy I honestly would in some manner (although I admit I would give an advantage to humans because you know... I'm human)
d) I have Liara as the Shadow Broker, so I can presumably help the sides build up their forces even if they don't know what it's about. Sort of like a new Cold War really... just without the proxy skirmishes.
e) I saved the Collector Base so we can make further technological advances.

You know what really bugs me about post Collector Base mission? It's that if you save it people say they don't trust the Illusive Man and that you basically made the wrong decision, but not one of those bastards piped up and gave me a workable alternative.

[Xilizhra]

(although I admit I would give an advantage to humans because you know... I'm human)

What species people are shouldn't matter, IMO.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

People were against you letting Grunt out too. Everyone (except a handful) were against the accusation of Saren being a rogue specter. Everyone is "still" against the notion of the Reapers except for a handful of people.



haters gonna hate

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Also, something was kinda interesting with the colors of the final scenes. 

Anyone notice that while the Illusive Man had a renegade-hue star behind him that the explosion hue of the collector base was... paragon?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[Kavadas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Probably by saying something along the lines of "The Reapers are coming, now fall in line behind humanity if you want any of this tech we found."

How stupid do you think TIM is?  You actually believe he's daft enough to sacrifice all life in the galaxy in a petty gamble for human advantage?

Do you understand how inane and irrational that is?

I don't care what anyone says, if ME2 proves anything about TIM's character it's that he's at least realistic and pragmatic.

If TIM's willing to forego all of Cerberus' connotated xenophobia in order to resurrect and aid Shepard against just the Collectors why would he suddenly change his position on the issue when the real engagement finally reaches his doorstep?

Modifié par Kavadas, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

(although I admit I would give an advantage to humans because you know... I'm human)

What species people are shouldn't matter, IMO.

You're absolutely right of course. Garrus is my bromance, but I can't expect the entire Turian species to be as awesome as Garrus. I can't trust that humanity and the Turian Hierarchy will get along at all times forever so it seems illogical to me to give up any advantage. My point being is that even if Humanity does have an advantage, I doubt that advantage would need to be exercised but if it did, I wouldn't want to be the one that could indirectly increase the body count and because I can relate to humanity more than I can to Turians, I would like humanity to be the winner.

EDITED TO MAKE ACTUAL SENSE. 

Modifié par Arijharn, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Xilizhra]

How stupid do you think TIM is? You actually believe he's daft enough to sacrifice all life in the galaxy in a gamble for human dominance?



Do you understand how inane and irrational that is?

I don't trust his mental stability, what with "Cerberus is humanity!" and all. He's been very rational and calm up until now, but so was Palpatine on his way up... when he made it to the top, he became a cackling lunatic obsessed with overbuilt superweapons.