3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Kavadas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because I think he's a bad guy and expect him to do bad guy stuff.

Translated.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The way TIM operates doesn't even allow him a shot at the evil empire spotlight right now. Everything he does he does "through" other people.. and he has to trust that they get the job done.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:11 .

[Arijharn]

I don't think TIM's a nice man, but I don't think he's some supervillian either.

[UNAVAILABLE]

chris025657 wrote...
The main defense of the Collector base was its location. Everyone who had passed through the Omega 4 relay died. Furthermore, the collectors pulled no punches in trying to stop Shepard. The Oculus attacks, the collector ship, and the collectors on board the base made every attempt to stop you. They never expected anyone to get that far.

If I'm not mistaken, EDI suggests it's possible they never expected anyone to get that far. I don't buy it. I mean, is that really the plot of ME, that every 50,000 years galactic civilization is wiped out by a race of super powerful, but mind-bogglingly stupid machines?

I think it's safer to assume that the Reapers have contingency plans for just about everything. They've been doing this extinction thing for a long time, and I doubt that humans are the smartest, most resourceful, and toughest opponents they've faced. They've probably defeated others who also passed the Omega 4 relay.

Consider that the Reapers have been thwarted twice by Prothean scientists. Once with the altered signal that prevented the Keepers from opening the Citadel Relay, and again by providing Shepard with a way to break Sovereign's hold on the Citadel.

Now consider what Cerberus is likely to do with that base, more specifically, who is going to be sent there. The best scientists that Cerberus can afford to hire, perhaps? The galaxies most innovative weapons engineers? With their funding plus the "once in a lifetime opportunity" of the base, I bet Cerberus could convince a lot of people to quit their current jobs and go to study the base.

Putting all of those scientific eggs in one basket.

One, Reaper-tech, balanced precariously on the edge of a black hole, isolated from the rest of the galaxy by an even-more-poorly-understood-than-the-rest-of-them mass relay - Basket.

Let's see, does it make sense to suspect a trap from the Reapers?

A dormant warship named Sovereign - Trojan Horse
Citadel/ mass relays - Trojan Horse
IFF from a million+ year dead Reaper - Trojan Horse
Collector Base - Safe to study???

Doesn't add up.

[Tazzmission]

because it looks so sexy when it gos boom!

Modifié par Tazzmission, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[mosor]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

If I'm not mistaken, EDI suggests it's possible they never expected anyone to get that far. I don't buy it. I mean, is that really the plot of ME, that every 50,000 years galactic civilization is wiped out by a race of super powerful, but mind-bogglingly stupid machines?

Reapers worked on the principle of suprise ambushes. This is the first time, to our knowledge, that there has been any forewarning of reaper doom.

I think it's safer to assume that the Reapers have contingency plans for just about everything. They've been doing this extinction thing for a long time, and I doubt that humans are the smartest, most resourceful, and toughest opponents they've faced. They've probably defeated others who also passed the Omega 4 relay.

With what evidence do you make that assumption? The evidence we do have is that they beat everyone else by suprising them. Many of those previous galactic civilizations faced an unknown enemy with their pants down. Here we have an opportunity to study reaper tech and not be caught with our pants down as much by their technological abilities, and you want to destroy it?

Consider that the Reapers have been thwarted twice by Prothean scientists. Once with the altered signal that prevented the Keepers from opening the Citadel Relay, and again by providing Shepard with a way to break Sovereign's hold on the Citadel.

The protheans thrawrted them only after their civilization fell. To our knowledge, the protheans had no knowledge of the collector base until they became collectors. Or for all well know, the collector base was built by collectors to build reapers, since the design and layout looks a lot like their ships. We don't know. Thats why we should study it.

Now consider what Cerberus is likely to do with that base, more specifically, who is going to be sent there. The best scientists that Cerberus can afford to hire, perhaps? The galaxies most innovative weapons engineers? With their funding plus the "once in a lifetime opportunity" of the base, I bet Cerberus could convince a lot of people to quit their current jobs and go to study the base.

Putting all of those scientific eggs in one basket.

Better that all those best scientists risk indoctrination studying reaper tech while reapers are not shooting back.  Would you rather risk them being killed or  indoctrinated when the reapers actually invade? That tech has to be studied eventually if the galaxy is going to beat them. Might as well be pre invasion  rather than during one.

Let's see, does it make sense to suspect a trap from the Reapers?

A dormant warship named Sovereign - Trojan Horse
Citadel/ mass relays - Trojan Horse
IFF from a million+ year dead Reaper - Trojan Horse
Collector Base - Safe to study???

Doesn't add up.

Well the 2 reaper ships don't matter for much. They're sentinet machines. That a dormant/dead reaper can still indoctrinate is a suprise, but regardless, reaper ships are meant to indoctrinate crew. Sovereign wasn't a trojan horse though. Unlike the citadel, it wasn't meant to be found. Neither was the collector base.
Speaking of the citadel, it's reaper tech. Why doesn't the citadel have some automated indoctrination machines in case the relay doesn't open, considering the reapers are hyper intelligent machine gods?  By your argument, I'm sure this isn't the first time the relay failed to open in millions of years.

Modifié par mosor, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Chiyeko]

For I will not give up what I am, in the name of fear.



That is my reason for blowing that place to smithereens.

[Dean_the_Young]

And fear had nothing to do with your decision in that direction?

[Ser Isely]

Maybe the Citadel does indoctrinate or something similar to people some what, thats why no one will investigate the keepers, I mean isn't it a bit naive to let creatures do what they will for centuries with out knowing how they do it? Maybe thats why the council refuses to believe anything too?

[Asheer_Khan]

I'm sure this isn't the first time the relay failed to open in millions of years.

Actually it is since Keepers were genetically engineered by Reapers to react at thier "knock" to Citadel relay.

Main reason why Sovieregin blown up his cover and openly attack Citadel was fact that (even Vigil says this) for THE FIRST time Keepers ignored signal to open Relay trapping Harbinger's fleet outside Milky Way...

[UNAVAILABLE]

mosor wrote...

I think it's safer to assume that the Reapers have contingency plans for just about everything. They've been doing this extinction thing for a long time, and I doubt that humans are the smartest, most resourceful, and toughest opponents they've faced. They've probably defeated others who also passed the Omega 4 relay.

With what evidence do you make that assumption? The evidence we do have is that they beat everyone else by suprising them. Many of those previous galactic civilizations faced an unknown enemy with their pants down. Here we have an opportunity to study reaper tech and not be caught with our pants down as much by their technological abilities, and you want to destroy it?

The assumption is based on the basic principle that it is far better to overestimate your opponent than to underestimate them. And the evidence does not show they beat "everyone else" by suprise. It shows they beat the Protheans by suprise. Other than that, we know little more than at one point in time, someone had a cannon that was powerful enough to kill at least one Reaper.

So which assumption should I make, that the Reapers are a bunch of wimps that can only win by suprise, or that they're an incredibly powerful armada that could easily win even in a fair fight? I think I'll be better prepared if I assume the latter.

I also question how valuable any study could be. According to Vigil it took the top Prothean scientists (who were more advanced than Cerberus) "decades of feverish study" to figure out how to alter the signal from the Citadel to the keepers. So that's how long it takes to study a single comm signal, something tells me that the Reapers are somewhat of a more imminent threat.

Better that all those best scientists risk indoctrination studying reaper tech while reapers are not shooting back.  Would you rather risk them being killed or indoctrinated when the reapers actually invade?

Considering that in my view the base is a trap, yes, it would be better to have them working on other things elsewhere.

That tech has to be studied eventually if the galaxy is going to beat them.

Not true. There is an assumption that studying the base (forgetting the years of study aspect) might yield useful technology, but there is no guarantee. Even if you gain understanding of some technology, it could be decades beyond that before anyone figures out how to use it in a weapon, strengthen shields, etc.

Let's see, does it make sense to suspect a trap from the Reapers?

A dormant warship named Sovereign - Trojan Horse
Citadel/ mass relays - Trojan Horse
IFF from a million+ year dead Reaper - Trojan Horse
Collector Base - Safe to study???

Doesn't add up.

Well the 2 reaper ships don't matter for much. They're sentinet machines. That a dormant/dead reaper can still indoctrinate is a suprise, but regardless, reaper ships are meant to indoctrinate crew. Sovereign wasn't a trojan horse though. Unlike the citadel, it wasn't meant to be found. Neither was the collector base.

The Reaper IFF wasn't meant to be found, but it still had a virus on it - it was still a trap. And that's just one part of a Reaper.

Speaking of the citadel, it's reaper tech. Why doesn't the citadel have some automated indoctrination machines in case the relay doesn't open, considering the reapers are hyper intelligent machine gods?  By your argument, I'm sure this isn't the first time the relay failed to open in millions of years.

This is the function that Sovereign fulfilled, or was supposed to. While I don't agree that the Reapers depend on suprise for their victories, they certainly like to keep it on their side. Automatically kicking on indoctrination aboard the Citadel is bound to get noticed, and could potentially alert the galaxy of an imminent attack. Having a dormant Reaper hidden in the galaxy allows that Reaper to best decide how to proceed should the relay fail.

[smudboy]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
The assumption is based on the basic principle that it is far better to overestimate your opponent than to underestimate them.

Then you must try harder to overcome your opponent.  Oh, you mean you have knowledge that constructs your opponent?  Well that certainly sounds handy...

I also question how valuable any study could be. According to Vigil it took the top Prothean scientists (who were more advanced than Cerberus) "decades of feverish study" to figure out how to alter the signal from the Citadel to the keepers. So that's how long it takes to study a single comm signal, something tells me that the Reapers are somewhat of a more imminent threat.

Save the base: you have the possibility of finding out.
Don't save the base: you will never find out.

How valuable?  EDI, Thanix and IFF.  You've just been handed the Reaper Genome of Birthing and you're scared and questioning its value.

Considering that in my view the base is a trap, yes, it would be better to have them working on other things elsewhere.

Aside from forming alliances and proving the Reapers exist, all is insignificant to the information in the base.

[Barquiel]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't trust his mental stability, what with "Cerberus is humanity!" and all. He's been very rational and calm up until now, but so was Palpatine on his way up... when he made it to the top, he became a cackling lunatic obsessed with overbuilt superweapons.

I don't think he trusts yours and with good reason.

In that case, he shouldn't resurrect idealistic paragons.

[Kavadas]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

mosor wrote...

That tech has to be studied eventually if the galaxy is going to beat them.

Not true. There is an assumption that studying the base (forgetting the years of study aspect) might yield useful technology, but there is no guarantee. Even if you gain understanding of some technology, it could be decades beyond that before anyone figures out how to use it in a weapon, strengthen shields, etc.

The only way Shepard can guarantee nothing useful comes from the Collector base is by destroying it.  If he keeps it there's at least some possibility it could lead to something, anything.

As for your estimation of turning around study into research into breakthroughs into practical technology, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man, to quote the Dude.

It only took the scientists of the Manhattan Project less than three years to complete a working atomic bomb; that's impressive and insanely quick.

War has a way of accelerating time schedules.  I would assume the threat of total organic extinction would provide some incentive to expediting research, no?

[Dean_the_Young]

Kavadas wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

mosor wrote...

That tech has to be studied eventually if the galaxy is going to beat them.

Not true. There is an assumption that studying the base (forgetting the years of study aspect) might yield useful technology, but there is no guarantee. Even if you gain understanding of some technology, it could be decades beyond that before anyone figures out how to use it in a weapon, strengthen shields, etc.

The only way Shepard can guarantee nothing useful comes from the Collector base is by destroying it.  If he keeps it there's at least some possibility it could lead to something, anything.

As for your estimation of turning around study into research into breakthroughs into practical technology, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man, to quote the Dude.

It only took the scientists of the Manhattan Project less than three years to complete a working atomic bomb; that's impressive and insanely quick.

War has a way of accelerating time schedules.  I would assume the threat of total organic extinction would provide some incentive to expediting research, no?

Mass Effect also has a literary lack of concept of scale. Advantages and technologies can be adopted incredibly quick, as the Prothean cache on mars showed.

[PWENER]

Tazzmission wrote...

because it looks so sexy when it gos boom!

The radiation looks aweasomer.

I kept it, and glad. It's better to know (even if it's bad) then to wonder what might have been.

A question to PARAGONS:

If it was handed over to the Alliance rather then Cerberus, would you have preserved it?

A question to RENEGADES:

If TIM offers Shepard (if you gave him the Collector base) the opportunity to join Cerberus in leading a Human controlled galaxy using the technology from the Collector base, would you agree?

Modifié par PWENER, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[Barquiel]

PWENER wrote...

A question to PARAGONS:

If it was handed over to the Alliance rather then Cerberus, would you have preserved it?

yes

[lovgreno]

The reapers has always been good at covering their tracks and Harbringer is probably not an exception. I doubt it would leave anything usefull behind, except as a bait in a trap. And speaking of traps, the reapers has always been good at putting trojan horses in their equipment and themselves as a safety precaution. No reason to assume that this shouldn't be the case with a very valuable project like the human reaper. Their traps and indoctrination has always been underestimated, especialy by Cerberus. By pure luck no indoctrination has yet lead to a major catastrophy but that may change, especialy with Failberus on that base.



Sure there is a small possibility that the small and weak organisation with too many enemies Cerberus on the base leads to a I win button to use against the reapers but that is basicaly wishfull thinking as no one knows much about it and its dangers. A radiation wave that miracously make it safe? Maybe, maybe not. Such Cerberus plans have usualy failed before.



It is also true that it's wishfull thinking that Shepard will win without the base. The difference is however that a huge threat against all life, especialy humanity, has been removed with the destruction of the base. Wich was the original plan in ME2 by the way before TIMmy got the idea that using a reactor he knew nothing about to clear all potential dangers from a base he knew nothing about to find some possibly usefull tech he hoped could be salvaged.

[Foune]

People destroy the base because ''It's the right thing to do!''.

[PWENER]

Shandepared wrote...

PWENER wrote...

A question to RENEGADES:

If TIM offers Shepard (if you gave him the Collector base) the opportunity to join Cerberus in leading a Human controlled galaxy using the technology from the Collector base, would you agree?

I'm annoyed he didn't offer me the chance already.

I know, right.

[PWENER]

Vladiostroke wrote...

People destroy the base because ''It's the right thing to do!''.

Is that the kind of mentality that will get a galaxy saved? I don't think so.

[GnusmasTHX]

Ser Isely wrote...

Maybe the Citadel does indoctrinate or something similar to people some what, thats why no one will investigate the keepers, I mean isn't it a bit naive to let creatures do what they will for centuries with out knowing how they do it? Maybe thats why the council refuses to believe anything too?

Naive, yes. Too naive for the Council? No.