3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

This forum is a special-ed class, I swear to god.

And you are our leader, o' Captain Retard-o.

For how would the ducklings know which direction to strut, were it not for the lead duck? For how would the geese know which direction to fly, were it not for the lead goose?

[tmk]

 Because in the end, I'm choosing from two stories made by someone else, and neither variant matches exactly what I would do, so ultimately it's just a choice of lesser evil.

I would save the base, if only to come back right after the explosion, collect as much evidence as possible about Collector-Reaper connection, and rub it in the face of that turian councilor. But it's likely too logical to actually happen in ME3 (because, after all, if that sort of stuff was logical, the storyline would choke before even starting and there wouldn't be much to make a game about).

I would make sure I understand what exactly TIM plans to do with that base before deciding whether to give him the Reaper IFF technology (as far as I understand, the SR2 is the only [non-Collector] ship in the galaxy that can actually traverse Omega-4 at that point). In fact I probably would give it to the Council instead, and if TIM has a problem with that, I have more than enough data to shut down Cerberus itself.

But what in fact happens when you save the base is, Shepard preaches something about the soul of our species, TIM immediately sends some sort of freighters through the relay (how?), you still don't know what the hell he's planning to do and whether he even understands the dangers (he doesn't seem to) - and you merrily continue cruising around the galaxy, never thinking about it again.

So to be honest, I saved the game right near the end of that mission (after you kill the scion), and I'm not deciding one way or the other until I see what options are available in ME3. But from the look of where it's going, destroying the base seems like the "better" choice. If even Miranda agrees it should have been destroyed...

I mean, creating the all-human council in ME1 ends up with humanity making a police state out of the Citadel, while still being just as useless as the original Council when it comes to actually doing something. Saving the base in ME2 will likely end up with TIM becoming some sort of galactic dictator (who, considering his competency, will probably be overthrown in less than a year), and convincing the rest of the races that humans really are just power-hungry a**hats - and I doubt that even humanity itself will be better off for it in the end.

Modifié par tmk, 07 juin 2010 - 08:06 .

[Chuvvy]

Because metagaming Also giving Timmy access to reaper tech is like being the black guy in a horror film wandering off into the woods alone and saying what could possibly go wrong, during a sex scene.

[Nightwriter]

What exactly are you arguing about, Shand? The technology barrier isn't the reason you should destroy the base. Has someone been trying to say we should blow it up because the technology is too much for us or something?

It's not a question of whether we could use the technology, but of who we're giving it to. That's the reason I blew it up, anyway.

[lovgreno]

Let's just ignore those who resorts to namecalling. It proves nothing. It's hard to take their arguments seriously if they claim we are to stupid to understand their superior logic anyway. There are alternative ways of seeing everything, those who claims their way is the only true one have hubris. Insulting people on the net is contraproductive and cowardly. You can get away with anything while hiding behind the net. So let's just stop that please.



Back to topic: Both blowing up the base and keeping it is supposed to be realy bad choices if I understood the writers right. It isn't hard to come up with good arguments for either with some imagination.

[ObserverStatus]

@ Shandepared
But you didn't answer the question...

Modifié par bobobo878, 07 juin 2010 - 08:35 .

[Nightwriter]

Sorry, Shand. Normally I do. You just don't exactly inspire the desire to make such efforts...

It's not easy being green, eh?

@ lovgreno - Hey, what do you mean, if you understand the writers right? Have they said something about this decision?

[lovgreno]

@Nightwriter- Sorry if I was unclear. No I haven't heard anything from the writers about the base decision. That was just how I think the writers wanted the decision to be based on the story so far. Hard decisions based on little information is a often used theme in ME, I think the base was a example of that.

[Nightwriter]

Oh okay. So you think the writers meant for them both to be sort of bad choices, do you?

Well I certainly hope that this doesn't amount to a "right" and a "wrong" choice. I'd like for there to just be different consequences for each.

One good example that was brought up in my group was the Bhelen/Harrowmont thing. Harrowmont was the better person and the fairer man, but Bhelen's views on trade and politics would be better for the economy.

So it was a choice between a fair king and a more isolated Orzammar, and an unfair king and a progressive Orzammar.

[Arijharn]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Exactly, I still find it quite humorous that people fall for that simple trick "Oooooh, we have THREE ways to go through a conversation with the EXACT same outcome... CHOICES!"

There are only four choices that had ANY actual impact on the gameworld I can remember right now:

Killing the council: The fight against Saren is slightly easier (No, the slightly different conversations in ME3 don't count, they have absolutely NO actual effect on the gameworld)

Electrocuting that Batarian in the Garrus recruitment mission: The battle is slightly easier.

Shooting the gas pipe in the Grunt recruitment mission: The battle is slightly easier.

Not saving the workers in Zaeeds mission: The mission is slightly easier, you don't need a good paragon/renegade score to get him loyal, you lose one opportunity for a heavy weapons ammo upgrade.

Ts, funny that those are all renegade choices, and they all get you an advantage, and still people complain that renegade choices are never "good"....

You've missed the point. People are annoyed with Renegade choices because they usually make you sound like an ass for no real reason other than to sound like an ass. 

Also, your Zaeed example is actually a point against you. The choices between a Renegade and a Paragon should not necessarily be exactly equal, they should however have a rough pay off, especially since a Paragon player can make Zaeed 'loyal' regardless of whether Vido survived.

Incidentally, making a battle 'slightly easier' is quite frankly a stupid thing to measure against because in the end, Shephard has the power of reload.

[Sharptooth]

I've done a post concerning the Collector base in another topic, but I guess I'll repeat myself.

One very good argument stated by Dean the Young is the fact that TIM is not to be trusted, but he can be relied on. TIM knows very well what Shepard is capable of and won't risk stabbing him/her in the back given Shepard's track record. TIM isn't an outright liar, but he does like to present truths according to his view of the universe. Outright lying would undermine the trust he gets from Shepard and his Cerberus operatives and thus hinder Cerberus operations. The mission on the derelict Reaper has got to be the most significant proof of this behaviour. If Morrigan from Dragon Age would have to describe TIM I think it would be something among the lines of: 'Tis a fine, gentle line that The Illusive Magister walks. TIM is an incredibly deep and calculated personality and had enriched the ME experience for me.

Reasons for keeping the base intact are:
- In my playthrough I saved the Rachni, gave Maelon's file on Krogan Genophage research to Mordin, inspired the Quarians to pick up arms, rewrited the heretics and of course keep the Collector Base. Furthermore, the Turian Hierarchy is producing Thanx Cannon-armed warships as we speak. This means that all around us, potential and historical enemies are becoming stronger by number, by technology and by morale. I cannot allow humanity to stay behind and watch itself be destroyed, hence, I passed the Base on to TIM. With all species strenghtening their military thanks in part to my Shepard, the Reapers will have it coming for them. I sincerely doubt we'll enter ME3 with Quarian and Geth forces in open warfare.

- TIM might be an extremist, but has cleaned up Cerberus' act since taking reign of the organisation and gives you the funding, the assets and the trust to do what is necessary. Besides, I remember Cerberus being a black ops part of the Systems Alliance not all that long ago.

- How the Council and the respective Citadel governments are anymore capable of what they are signed up for is beyond my understanding. Had Embarrassor Udina gotten his way, Saren would've won. Furthermore they shoved all evidence under the carpet and preferred the sedative quality of the familiar. Think about that, the next time someone brings up the incompetence of Cerberus.

- That brings me to my next point. Cerberus has done horrific experiments and quite some have failed. It seems to me most of the members on this board have never been part of a experimental research project. When starting and participating in such a project, one thing is sure: You'll fail more than you'll be successful. You'll start with a hypothesis and generally you'll start from scratch more often than you'll like. All experiments fail mostly because the funding dries up, public pressure to stop the research and lack of progress. Given time, Cerberus will be able to produce results from researching the Collector Base, this is simply because they've got more than enough funding and TIM won't take no as an answer.

That's it for now.

Modifié par Sharptooth, 07 juin 2010 - 09:54 .

[STG]

If I knew that TIM would use the base against the reapers and reapers alone, I would hand the base over. I may hate Cerberus but that isn't important when we're facing a fleet of death.

However, knowing Cerberus, their history and how shady they are, there is a high chance that they will use the tech against Citadel Council and the Allaince to insure "human" dominance. In that case we are royaly screwed when reapers show up since no one will be at full strength and will be distracted by each other.

I'm also still a spectre. Providing weapons and tech to a known enemy of the Council wouldn't look good on my résumé.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

What exactly are you arguing about, Shand? The technology barrier isn't the reason you should destroy the base. Has someone been trying to say we should blow it up because the technology is too much for us or something?

It's not a question of whether we could use the technology, but of who we're giving it to. That's the reason I blew it up, anyway.

...Night, you're generally smarter than the rest, but please keep up with the conversation better.

[Kenrae]

I'd had loved for more options, not only destroy/give it to TIM. The options to give it to the Alliance or the Council should have been there too.

[STG]

Shandepared wrote...
Is TIM a bad guy? Pretty much yeah, he's not a nice man. You might despise him and his goals but that should compe secondary to your main enemy here: the Reapers. TIM is the only worthwhile ally you've got. Anderson, Udina, the Alliance, the Council, everybody else, they are all useless. None of them recognize the threat and none of them wants to rock the boat, none of them believes you.

If you alienate Cerberus now you've got very little firm intel on your enemy and no allies.

Council, Alliance, etc. are all useless if you believe in their official "Ah yes, reapers" story. When your agent shows up and is working with your enemy you can't give him all the intel and help you want because then you're giving it to your enemies as well.

True, Council never gave help to our colonies when Collectors were running around but that was our fault more than anything else. By colonizing Terminus Systems we were basically asking for trouble, and when we got it we ran for help.

Also, only renegade players are left with no allies if they alienate Ceberus.

[Arijharn]

STG wrote...

If I knew that TIM would use the base against the reapers and reapers alone, I would hand the base over. I may hate Cerberus but that isn't important when we're facing a fleet of death.

However, knowing Cerberus, their history and how shady they are, there is a high chance that they will use the tech against Citadel Council and the Allaince to insure "human" dominance. In that case we are royaly screwed when reapers show up since no one will be at full strength and will be distracted by each other.

I'm also still a spectre. Providing weapons and tech to a known enemy of the Council wouldn't look good on my résumé.

Even assuming you're right and would provide arms to the human military-industrial complex, it would be actually against TIM's agenda if he did it before the Reapers showed up en masse. Why? Because even if the Turian's armaments are less able than their human counterparts, they still have guns.

[Wildecker]

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Saren already built a secret lab to research and understand indoctrination -- it didn't go too well.

to bad he didnt have a shadow organization with access to hundreds of billions of credits to fund the research.

Saren didn't exactly need a shadow organization to fund his research, being one of the major shareholders of BinHex (as stated during your mission on Noveria).

[lovgreno]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh okay. So you think the writers meant for them both to be sort of bad choices, do you?

Well I certainly hope that this doesn't amount to a "right" and a "wrong" choice. I'd like for there to just be different consequences for each.

One good example that was brought up in my group was the Bhelen/Harrowmont thing. Harrowmont was the better person and the fairer man, but Bhelen's views on trade and politics would be better for the economy.

So it was a choice between a fair king and a more isolated Orzammar, and an unfair king and a progressive Orzammar.

I wouldn't necesarily call them "bad" but having to take the moraly grey and potentialy dangerous choices seems to be the style of the ME story.

Yeah something like the Orzamar would be interesting. I would even welcome it if both blowing up the base and keeping it led to a major catastrophy for the humans. If ME3 started with Earth overrun by Cerberus husks from failed experiments from the base or the human reaper larva set free by a exploded base eating the human colonies and fleet it could make a interesting story. Both choices have a major risk of epic fail. Starting a story with a major setback can make a story much more dramatic.

In any case a good story is most important so I hope something dramatic can come from both decisions.

Modifié par lovgreno, 07 juin 2010 - 11:13 .

[STG]

lovgreno wrote...

In any case a good story is most important so I hope something dramatic can come from both decisions.

Something like an e-mail. 

[lovgreno]

STG wrote...
Something like an e-mail. 

They better do something with a little more imagination than that... I demand the ability to create epic galactic fails! And then save the galaxy anyway.

[Sharptooth]

Gaining access to the Collector Base and its Reaper-based technology might very well give us a headstart on the Reapers. Sovereign and Legion have talked in-depth about the Cycle of Extinction, claiming that anyone who picks up Reaper tech is doomed.

However, as EDI mentioned when passing through the Omega-4 Relay, no one was ever expected to reach the Collector Base, with the major hint being its weak defenses (a few Oculi won't stop an entire fleet passing through).

Perhaps, with keeping the Collector Base and producing viable research and results, Cerberus will be able to create a loophole within the Cycle. In general, it is understood that the Reapers left behind clues and technology for other species to find, but only when the Reapers wanted them to find it (most often within a specific timeframe or level of cultural, scientific, moral, political etc. advancement). Again, the Reapers never expected us to find the Base, let alone use it to our fullest potential.

Modifié par Sharptooth, 07 juin 2010 - 11:36 .

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

...Night, you're generally smarter than the rest, but please keep up with the conversation better.

Gimme a break, I've been up for hours and hours... my eyes are all twitchy and my brain's fuzzy...

And you know, Sharptooth, one thing I've often wondered is whether the base is of Reaper origin or it's just a repurposed Prothean station. It sort of looks Collector-y... whatever that means...

If it's of Reaper origin it's probably chalk full of ancient tech. If it's Prothean-turned-Collector it might still be full of useful technology, but the inherent danger of it might be considerably less.

[tmk]

STG wrote...
True, Council never gave help to our colonies when Collectors were running around but that was our fault more than anything else. By colonizing Terminus Systems we were basically asking for trouble, and when we got it we ran for help.

It's not that simple actually. In ME1 Anderson says that Council was actively encouraging human settling of the "buffer zones". So it's more like they were asking us to get into potential trouble, but then refuse to get into trouble themselves to help us. Not entirely unlike what Ashley was talking about...

Sharptooth wrote...
Perhaps, with keeping the Collector Base and producing viable research and results, Cerberus will be able to create a loophole within the Cycle. In general, it is understood that the Reapers left behind clues and technology for other species to find, but only when the Reapers wanted them to find it (most often within a specific timeframe or level of cultural, scientific, moral, political etc. advancement). Again, the Reapers never expected us to find the Base, let alone use it to our fullest potential.

Unless of course that's exactly what they wanted us to believe 

Not to mention the dead gods dreaming and all that fun stuff...

Modifié par tmk, 07 juin 2010 - 12:27 .