3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Annie_Dear]

PWENER wrote...

ShadowJ20 wrote...

iakus wrote...
If you consider cliche and boring to be 'style' then yeah.

It's not too bad.  We get to punch Zaeed right in his face and pistol whip that Overlord Scientist.

Those two are paragon actions?

Paragon interrupts, yeah.

[LorDC]

Putting aside OOC and meta-game reasoning("I prefer red explosions", "Paragons will be able to win anyway" etc) people use three arguments for destroying the base:

1) TIM/Cerberus is bad.

2) Studying the base will not give us any data.

3) Reaper tech is inherently bad.

Did I miss anything or may be TIM-haters managed to pull out something new since I last showed up in this thread?

[Chiyeko]

PWENER wrote...


A question to PARAGONS:

If it was handed over to the Alliance rather then Cerberus, would you have preserved it?

No I would not, that base that technology was based on things so horrible that it could not be preserved. I ratter fight and die trying to save the galaxy than to fight and live saving the galaxy knowing I had to use anything from that piece of evil.

Beside EDI got tons and tons of data from the that ship and the base anyway stored in her memory core so we should be easily enough to be able to build things that we can use the propper way or not at all if it is not possible.

[LorDC]

PWENER wrote...
A question to PARAGONS:

If it was handed over to the Alliance rather then Cerberus, would you have preserved it?

It would be effectively the same. Cerberus obviously has a lot of agents/supporters in Alliance military.

[LorDC]

Chiyeko wrote...
No I would not, that base that technology was based on things so horrible that it could not be preserved. I ratter fight and die trying to save the galaxy than to fight and live saving the galaxy knowing I had to use anything from that piece of evil.

Beside EDI got tons and tons of data from the that ship and the base anyway stored in her memory core so we should be easily enough to be able to build things that we can use the propper way or not at all if it is not possible.

So you are saying:
1) Everything that comes from CB is bad.
2) Thus we shall destroy it without studying.
3) EDI already studied it.
4) So we shall use her data.
Well, you either have to destroy EDI and data since it is tainted or you should save the base because it is OK to use data we got from studying.

[Asheer_Khan]

Arijharn wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I'm sure this isn't the first time the relay failed to open in millions of years.

Actually it is since Keepers were genetically engineered by Reapers to react at thier "knock" to Citadel relay.
Main reason why Sovieregin blown up his cover and openly attack Citadel was fact that (even Vigil says this) for THE FIRST time Keepers ignored signal to open Relay trapping Harbinger's fleet outside Milky Way...

Does that mean that you agree that the Collector Base could be some overly complicated trap then?

Maybe not intentional trap... BUT.. there is no guarantee that reapers did not plant there many surveilance devices which helped them to monitoring entire station.

I can assume that Harbinger do monitoring station's fate after breaking up connection with Collector General so what if he will discover that station is still intact but now instead of collectors is takeover by humans?

Answer could be dual.
1. Remote activation of auto destruct sequence - no one would realize what's going on before will be too late.
2. Slow and methodical indoctrination science team and turning them in Reapers agents.

And when comes to whole "there are plenty of reaper tech there" hype i would still advise great cautious.

Taking aside translation issue which could take years (unless from some unknown source cerberus did aquired necessary tools to translate reaper language to English or simple ID4 stunt pulled by Bioware) there could be so called "Da Vinci factor" aka deliberate errors hidden in blueprints and because of that made stuff created with thier help unusable (Da Vinci protected in that way his inventions because "invention espionage" was very common in his times) .

Collectors known how to avoid those errors because they were direct guided by Reapers but now any science team who will try to use those plans (possibly untranslated as well but using reverse engeineering as someone here once suggested) could replicated such hidden error whit very possible tragic consequences.

That's why i expected that more and much relayable  infos about Reapers could be hidden within data banks of SB ship since e made many deals with Reapers in the past but to confirm or deny this we need to wait at ME 3.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 22 septembre 2010 - 01:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Am I the only one who sees how stupid it would be to have a remote auto-destruct sequence and not use it before the base is captured, to prevent any unwanted gains by the organics?



Seriously. It's stupid. If they blow it up with a few Cerberus scientists in it, a few Cerberus scientists die, and that's it. The tech they already got out of it, that's a loss the humans gain. They blow it up before the Cerberus scientists get there, no loss for the Reapers at all, or for Cerberus and the galaxy.





Of course, the continuing ignorance of the limits of indoctrination against a person's will are, once again, ignored.

[LorDC]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Maybe not intentional trap... BUT.. there is no guarantee that reapers did not plant there many surveilance devices which helped them to monitoring entire station.

I can assume that Harbinger do monitoring station's fate after breaking up connection with Collector General so what if he will discover that station is still intact but now instead of collectors is takeover by humans?

Answer could be dual.
1. Remote activation of auto destruct sequence - no one would realize what's going on before will be too late.
2. Slow and methodical indoctrination science team and turning them in Reapers agents.

And when comes to whole "there are plenty of reaper tech there" hype i would still advise great cautious.

Taking aside translation issue which could take years (unless from some unknown source cerberus did aquired necessary tools to translate reaper language to English or simple ID4 stunt pulled by Bioware) there could be so called "Da Vinci factor" aka deliberate errors in blueprints made stuff created with thier help unusable (Da Vinci protected in that way his invention because "invention espionage" was very common in his times) .

Collectors known how to avoid those errors because they were direct guided by Reapers but now any science team who will try to use those plans (possibly untranslated as well but using reverse engeineering as someone here once suggested) could replicated such hidden error whit very possible tragic consequences.

That's why i expected that more and much relayable  infos about Reapers could be hidden within data banks of SB ship since e made many deals with Reapers in the past but to confirm or deny this we need to wait at ME 3.

Those are valid points. But how do they justify destroying base?
Base could be trap? So what? Who said fighting Reapers is easy task? Anyway if something happens at CB it will happen to those mad power-hungry Cerberus scientists which is goos thing. And indoctrination is not gonna magically go away with destroying the base Reapers will use it when they arrive while base will be perfect opportunity to study it.
Studying base may take years? So what? A little bit of knowledge is better than nothing at all. Considering it took two years to develop thannix canons from scraps of Sovereign ot wouldn't that hard anyway.

[LorDC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Am I the only one who sees how stupid it would be to have a remote auto-destruct sequence and not use it before the base is captured, to prevent any unwanted gains by the organics?

Seriously. It's stupid. If they blow it up with a few Cerberus scientists in it, a few Cerberus scientists die, and that's it. The tech they already got out of it, that's a loss the humans gain. They blow it up before the Cerberus scientists get there, no loss for the Reapers at all, or for Cerberus and the galaxy.


Of course, the continuing ignorance of the limits of indoctrination against a person's will are, once again, ignored.

Not to mention that in such case Reapers could have blown it up while Shepard was still inside killing one of their strongest adversaries.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Am I the only one who sees how stupid it would be to have a remote auto-destruct sequence and not use it before the base is captured, to prevent any unwanted gains by the organics?

So your saying that multi-million year old beings with the upper hand would be stupid to exhibit a little bit of patience to see how the scenario plays out?

Seriously. It's stupid. If they blow it up with a few Cerberus scientists in it, a few Cerberus scientists die, and that's it. The tech they already got out of it, that's a loss the humans gain.

Riiiiiiiight, because it will only take a few scientists a couple of days to study a base that is way bigger than a Reaper.

I think it will take a lot of the best scientists to have any chance of learning anything. And since the best scientists represent the best chance to tip the battle in the favor of humanity (and kroganity, asarity etc.), I think taking them out would be a significant victory for the Reapers - especially considering that their latest efforts at galactic destruction were thwarted largely due to the efforts of Prothean scientists.

Unless I missed the part of the story where Cerberus unveiled their supra-genius cloning machine.

[Asheer_Khan]

Perhaps fact that Harbinger did nothing to prevent C-Base from fail in wrong hands could be indication that he doesn't consider her as" security" risk for Reapers or as well could indicated his galaxy big overconfidence and puny.



However... there is third possibility too... in moment when he break connection with Collector General this could trigger auto data purge within station computers so all what remains after this was huge empty station in the middle of the nowhere...

[LorDC]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Perhaps fact that Harbinger did nothing to prevent C-Base from fail in wrong hands could be indication that he doesn't consider her as" security" risk for Reapers

Why he didn't blow it up along with Shepard and Normandy then?

Asheer_Khan wrote...
However... there is third possibility too... in moment when he break connection with Collector General this could trigger auto data purge within station computers so all what remains after this was huge empty station in the middle of the nowhere...

Except Reaper-building facility and loads of other weapons and machinery. You know, software is not only thing that could be used.

[LorDC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Am I the only one who sees how stupid it would be to have a remote auto-destruct sequence and not use it before the base is captured, to prevent any unwanted gains by the organics?

So your saying that multi-million year old beings with the upper hand would be stupid to exhibit a little bit of patience to see how the scenario plays out?

Seriously. It's stupid. If they blow it up with a few Cerberus scientists in it, a few Cerberus scientists die, and that's it. The tech they already got out of it, that's a loss the humans gain.

Riiiiiiiight, because it will only take a few scientists a couple of days to study a base that is way bigger than a Reaper.

I think it will take a lot of the best scientists to have any chance of learning anything. And since the best scientists represent the best chance to tip the battle in the favor of humanity (and kroganity, asarity etc.), I think taking them out would be a significant victory for the Reapers - especially considering that their latest efforts at galactic destruction were thwarted largely due to the efforts of Prothean scientists.

Unless I missed the part of the story where Cerberus unveiled their supra-genius cloning machine.

Again why didn't he blow up Shepard? Harbinger obviously agrees with TIM about Shepard being a one-man army(or even better).

[UNAVAILABLE]

[quote]mosor wrote...

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...
The assumption is based on the basic principle that it is far better to overestimate your opponent than to underestimate them. And the evidence does not show they beat "everyone else" by suprise. It shows they beat the Protheans by suprise. Other than that, we know little more than at one point in time, someone had a cannon that was powerful enough to kill at least one Reaper.
[/quote]
How can you overestimate an opponent you know next to nothing about?
[/quote]

Ok, fair point. I still don't think it safe to assume that the Reapers are gibbering retards that over millions of years never once considered the possibility that someone might breach the O-4 relay and take the base.

[quote]
If anything, you're underestimating them by thinking you can win without saving the base and studying their capabilities.
[/quote]

So not walking into the enemy's trap is the same as underestimating them?

[quote]
As I said above. If you working on the assumption that they're increadibly powerful, wouldn't you want to know exactly what capabilities they have other than indoctrination? Other possible weapons they might use against us? Your argument is basically, we should fear them to the point of running away from them, rather than bravely facing the threat and studying them while there is still time.
[/quote]

So your argument is basically that the only options are "agree with you" or "run in fear". How about examining the rest of the treasure trove of alien tech that is in the debris field around the base? How about further examination of the mass accelerator weapon that killed the derelict Reaper? How about further study of the interraction between the Reaper IFF and the O-4 mass relay? If one relay can be made to respond differently to the Reaper IFF, then perhaps others can too. I personally like the thought of sitting back and watching as a relay catapults every Reaper that tries to pass through it into the nearest star. It'd be like watching a giant galactic bug zapper.

[quote]
As someone else pointed out, the mars data leapfroged our knowledge by hundreds of years in a short time.
[/quote]

That was Prothean tech, NOT Reaper tech. Included in that "hundreds of years of gain" is the technology that was gained by trading with Council races after the first contact war.

[quote]
Bersides, they weren't just studying a single signal. They were building a mini mass relay. They also had to work in secret with limited resources.
[/quote]

No, the Conduit had to be in place before the Reaper invasion began, otherwise the Protheans could never have installed the Citadel end terminal. I can somewhat buy the limited resources argument (even though they had an entire planet and a large research facility at their disposal). And they weren't working in secret, Vigil awakened them after the Reapers already left, and the rest of the galaxy was dead.


[quote][quote]
Considering that in my view the base is a trap, yes, it would be better to have them working on other things elsewhere.
[/quote]
Studying what? The cell life of a bacteria? 
[/quote]
See other techs listed above.

[quote]
 A scientist can get more data in a couple weeks at the base than they could in several lifetimes. Even if they do get indoctrinated, the data they get even from being there a limited time is well worth the price.
[/quote]

Another unfounded assertion. Even if awesome data is obtained, the people that you would want to analyze it and build some awesome Reaper counter-measure, are the same people you just sacrificed to die on the base.
[quote]
Sovereign could have sent a signal to automatically kick in indoctrination in case the  signal to open the relay didn't work. The citadel proves not all reaper tech indoctrinates.
[/quote]
I never claimed it did. I stated that all Reaper tech that has been examined so far has harmful/dangerous effects. Of which, indoctrination is one possibility.

[quote]
The fact is we're not the ones who underestimate the reapers. It's they that underestimate us. With the base in hand, that may be their fatal mistake. We may suffer some losses studying the base, we may not. However, we will learn more about our enemy than a paragon who choses to destroy it.
[/quote]

I would agree IF this were a normal factory that would allow you to see how the Reaper is assembled so you could get an idea of structural weaknesses etc. But it's not, it's some bizarre incubation chamber. Unless the Reaper's have some really lame vulnerability ("hey, look guys, they dissolve in water") then whatever tech you gain is hardly likely to be in weapon useable form. More R&D will be necessary to figure out how to use it. If we have that much time for study before the Reapers get here it seems that Shepard will be in an old folks home by the time the battle gets underway.

[UNAVAILABLE]

LorDC wrote...

Putting aside OOC and meta-game reasoning("I prefer red explosions", "Paragons will be able to win anyway" etc) people use three arguments for destroying the base:
1) TIM/Cerberus is bad.
2) Studying the base will not give us any data.
3) Reaper tech is inherently bad.
Did I miss anything or may be TIM-haters managed to pull out something new since I last showed up in this thread?

I would add the possibility of base recapture to the list. It's in uncharted space and there is no intel on what else might be out there. Other collector bases? Other Reaper allies? Kind of pointless to take the base if you can't hold it.

[Arijharn]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...


So your saying that multi-million year old beings with the upper hand would be stupid to exhibit a little bit of patience to see how the scenario plays out?

I'm just going to touch on this subject. I do think it would be stupid for them to do this because the Reapers play for keeps, not as some social experiment on whether the puny mortals would do anything to gain a competitive edge.

The Collector base to me seems like it was deliberately set in a position that would allow it to hide. Stealth is it's principle defense. Considering it was being made to construct the next generation of Reapers, I don't think you'd want to destroy it if something went wrong (i.e., it getting captured) but rather recapture it with all possible haste. I would believe it would be inefficient to destroy it simply to construct a new one at certain points.

[UNAVAILABLE]

LorDC wrote...
Again why didn't he blow up Shepard? Harbinger obviously agrees with TIM about Shepard being a one-man army(or even better).

Because Shepard is only powerful because of the resources at her disposal. Without the intervention of Prothean scientists long dead, Shepard could not have defeated the Reapers. The chance to take out the current wave of top scientists would outweigh the gains made by killing a single soldier.

Sincerely curious: what part of the dialogue makes you think Harbinger shares TIM's assessment of Shepard? Harbinger doesn't have too many lines and I can't think of what you may be referring to.

[Arijharn]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Sincerely curious: what part of the dialogue makes you think Harbinger shares TIM's assessment of Shepard? Harbinger doesn't have too many lines and I can't think of what you may be referring to.

I'm not the person you're talking too, but it seems pretty obvious to me at least that Harbinger has a great deal of respect (dare I say it) for Shephard and his capabilities considering
a) He tried to buy his body from the Shadow Broker
He says stuff like 'preserve Shephard's body if possible'
c) Taunts you almost constantly
d) Seems to constantly prioritize your Shep as a target .

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

mosor wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
The assumption is based on the basic principle that it is far better to overestimate your opponent than to underestimate them. And the evidence does not show they beat "everyone else" by suprise. It shows they beat the Protheans by suprise. Other than that, we know little more than at one point in time, someone had a cannon that was powerful enough to kill at least one Reaper.

How can you overestimate an opponent you know next to nothing about?

Ok, fair point. I still don't think it safe to assume that the Reapers are gibbering retards that over millions of years never once considered the possibility that someone might breach the O-4 relay and take the base.

What evidence do we have that the O4 relay and CB existed prior to the last cycle?  It's entirely possible that this is the first time the Reapers have tried something like this after finding out the Protheans had almost figured out how to create their own relays (possible without finding Ilos).  This would have shown them the need for a more active observer (hibernating and checking up every so often doesn't cut it) and further keep species from trying to understand their tech by offering them more advanced tech (rather than have species trying to advance on their own).

So you have a relay no one can enter without an IFF you can't know about without studying a ship that can only be found when it wants to be and even if you figure out what there are only ever 3 in the galaxy before chow time (Collector vessel, lone Reaper, derelict Reaper).  All 3 of those are nearly unobtainable and the only reason TIM found the derelict Reaper is because he was looking for anything that could be related to the Reapers.  So you have something you can't find unless you know what you're looking for, the element of surprise, and a system that, to date, has never failed.  It doesn't make them stupid to assume their base in the galactic core would remain safe and that their system of extermination would continue to work if anything it simply makes them arrogant.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

 A scientist can get more data in a couple weeks at the base than they could in several lifetimes. Even if they do get indoctrinated, the data they get even from being there a limited time is well worth the price.

Another unfounded assertion. Even if awesome data is obtained, the people that you would want to analyze it and build some awesome Reaper counter-measure, are the same people you just sacrificed to die on the base.

Typically you don't send your best and brightest on field work.  They stay back and analyze data/tech sent back by the people who do field work.  A valid point, the people you'd send on field work are still valuable but it's not like you'd be chopping off your own head.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Arijharn wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
So your saying that multi-million year old beings with the upper hand would be stupid to exhibit a little bit of patience to see how the scenario plays out?

I'm just going to touch on this subject. I do think it would be stupid for them to do this because the Reapers play for keeps, not as some social experiment on whether the puny mortals would do anything to gain a competitive edge.

Social experiment?!? Ummm...no...it's called strategy. Like in chess. You sacrifice pieces to your opponent so that they move themselves into a position that is easier to destroy.

The Collector base to me seems like it was deliberately set in a position that would allow it to hide. Stealth is it's principle defense.

Again, I'm going to assume that million year old beings are smart enough to have considered the possibility that a simple stealth defense could be overcome.

Considering it was being made to construct the next generation of Reapers, I don't think you'd want to destroy it if something went wrong (i.e., it getting captured) but rather recapture it with all possible haste. I would believe it would be inefficient to destroy it simply to construct a new one at certain points.

Why is destroying it the Reaper's only option? Shepard killed everything on board without damaging the base, are we assuming that the Reapers are incapable of this too?

Speaking of the timed radiation pulse, I sure hope all those scientists remembered to pack their radiation suits or they'll be dead before they can be indoctrinated.

[Arijharn]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
So your saying that multi-million year old beings with the upper hand would be stupid to exhibit a little bit of patience to see how the scenario plays out?

I'm just going to touch on this subject. I do think it would be stupid for them to do this because the Reapers play for keeps, not as some social experiment on whether the puny mortals would do anything to gain a competitive edge.

Social experiment?!? Ummm...no...it's called strategy. Like in chess. You sacrifice pieces to your opponent so that they move themselves into a position that is easier to destroy.

They placed it in the most inhospitable location in the galaxy, surrounded by 'black holes and exploding suns' then place it under the protection of a mass relay that requires super sensitive commands to access safely, coupled this with Occuli with stupidly effective laser batteries and potentially a Collector Cruiser.

If they were serious about the Collector Base and protecting it, they would of had Sovereign parked outside instead of him lurking about in the Perseus Veil.

[LorDC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Again, I'm going to assume that million year old beings are smart enough to have considered the possibility that a simple stealth defense could be overcome.

Try not use this argument. "Million-year old beings are smart enough for blah-blah-blah" argument can justify pretty much anything. You can just say that everything so far went according to Reapers' grand scheme(Death Note style) and we can do nothing to stop them. This will end our discussion since nothing and no one can prove you wrong.

[LorDC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I would add the possibility of base recapture to the list. It's in uncharted space and there is no intel on what else might be out there. Other collector bases? Other Reaper allies? Kind of pointless to take the base if you can't hold it.

Where this ominous allies were when Shepard was capturing C-Base? Anyway this problem is easily solvable. We can always blow up the base later. Just place that overload sequence Shepard used on standby and use it if any sign of trouble shows up.