3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

LorDC wrote...

Putting aside OOC and meta-game reasoning("I prefer red explosions", "Paragons will be able to win anyway" etc) people use three arguments for destroying the base:
1) TIM/Cerberus is bad.
2) Studying the base will not give us any data.
3) Reaper tech is inherently bad.
Did I miss anything or may be TIM-haters managed to pull out something new since I last showed up in this thread?

Yes, Be willing to win at any means nessacery does not really end well, you should be unwilling to do so but capable of making sacrifices.

[LorDC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Because Shepard is only powerful because of the resources at her disposal.

Council has a lot more resources than Shepard but did a lot less to stop Reapers. It's not the amount of resources but how you use them.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Without the intervention of Prothean scientists long dead, Shepard could not have defeated the Reapers.

Well, without Shepard's deeds all Prothean efforts would be in vain. So it works both ways.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
The chance to take out the current wave of top scientists would outweigh the gains made by killing a single soldier.

Shepard is not a "single soldier". He is very skilled operative and one of the most charismatic leaders in the Galaxy.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Sincerely curious: what part of the dialogue makes you think Harbinger shares TIM's assessment of Shepard? Harbinger doesn't have too many lines and I can't think of what you may be referring to.

Already answered.

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Am I the only one who sees how stupid it would be to have a remote auto-destruct sequence and not use it before the base is captured, to prevent any unwanted gains by the organics?

So your saying that multi-million year old beings with the upper hand would be stupid to exhibit a little bit of patience to see how the scenario plays out?

When patience entails your secrets and the means of your advantages slipping out as long as you hold back from a blow where the largest advantage you receive is stopping the leaking of information?

Yes. That's incredibly stupid.

Seriously. It's stupid. If they blow it up with a few Cerberus scientists in it, a few Cerberus scientists die, and that's it. The tech they already got out of it, that's a loss the humans gain.

Riiiiiiiight, because it will only take a few scientists a couple of days to study a base that is way bigger than a Reaper.

It only takes a few hours to cart equipment off the base. Days to empty it. No one has to study everything with it inside the base, and every shipload of technology that is carried off to be studied is one shipload of tech advantage the Reapers see diminish.

I think it will take a lot of the best scientists to have any chance of learning anything. And since the best scientists represent the best chance to tip the battle in the favor of humanity (and kroganity, asarity etc.), I think taking them out would be a significant victory for the Reapers - especially considering that their latest efforts at galactic destruction were thwarted largely due to the efforts of Prothean scientists.

Unless I missed the part of the story where Cerberus unveiled their supra-genius cloning machine.

You did miss how those same best scientists don't have to be inside the base.

It would be akin to placing a bomb under a computer desk in an attempt to kill the world's best hacker, when said hacker could simply have someone take the computer out of the room.


And I'm severly mistaken here, aren't you one of the people who has in the past relished destroying the base as a way to tell off TIM and make a break with Cerberus, and thus those 'best' scientists? 

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[LorDC]

Sajuro wrote...
Yes, Be willing to win at any means nessacery does not really end well, you should be unwilling to do so but capable of making sacrifices.

I will qualify this as OOC reasoning. Even not reasoning at all. You basically repeat Shepard's words about sacrificing soul of our species. Beautiful but meaningless speech. You just state that saving base is bad and don't bother to explain why.

[Sajuro]

LorDC wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Yes, Be willing to win at any means nessacery does not really end well, you should be unwilling to do so but capable of making sacrifices.

I will qualify this as OOC reasoning. Even not reasoning at all. You basically repeat Shepard's words about sacrificing soul of our species. Beautiful but meaningless speech. You just state that saving base is bad and don't bother to explain why.

If shepard said it wouldn't it be in character?

[LorDC]

Sajuro wrote...
If shepard said it wouldn't it be in character?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I can accept that "by any means necessary is wrong" is part of your Shepard's beliefs. But still it does not explain why he thinks that saving the base is extremely bad action. So we are returning to the same point. Is there any reason for destroying the base that I not listed?

Modifié par LorDC, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[UNAVAILABLE]

LorDC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I would add the possibility of base recapture to the list. It's in uncharted space and there is no intel on what else might be out there. Other collector bases? Other Reaper allies? Kind of pointless to take the base if you can't hold it.

Where this ominous allies were when Shepard was capturing C-Base?

The base was taken in a relatively quick attack. The galactic core is huge, other allies could be days or weeks away.

I'll grant you that a remote detonation could be feasible back-up, assuming the massive radiation and other EM waves emitted by the black hole don't interfere with your remote signal. In that case you would have to rely on your science team having the courage to self destruct themselves.

[UNAVAILABLE]

LorDC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Again, I'm going to assume that million year old beings are smart enough to have considered the possibility that a simple stealth defense could be overcome.

Try not use this argument. "Million-year old beings are smart enough for blah-blah-blah" argument can justify pretty much anything. You can just say that everything so far went according to Reapers' grand scheme(Death Note style) and we can do nothing to stop them. This will end our discussion since nothing and no one can prove you wrong.

I'm not trying to use that argument as a catch all for everything. I'm specifically using it to counter the argument that the Reapers never guessed that the O-4 relay would be breached. If I'm wrong and the Reapers were completely dumbfounded, well, then I guess the Reapers are idiots and this war should be easier to win than expected.

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...
What evidence do we have that the O4 relay and CB existed prior to the last cycle? 

A graveyard of ancient derelict vessels surrounding the base, perhaps.
Caveat: I understand that the description of "ancient" is Joker's assessment. The reason I take it to be true is that EDI doesn't pipe in to correct him. She could say "all ship profiles match known Asari, Salarian, etc. ships" thus proving that all the ships come from the current extinction cycle. She remains silent, however, which I take to mean that she agrees with Joker.

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I'm not trying to use that argument as a catch all for everything. I'm specifically using it to counter the argument that the Reapers never guessed that the O-4 relay would be breached. If I'm wrong and the Reapers were completely dumbfounded, well, then I guess the Reapers are idiots and this war should be easier to win than expected.

I mentioned this last page but how does that make them idiots?  The Omega relay is designed to be impossible to use without an IFF, only 3 of them exist in the galaxy at any given time, all of them are nearly impossible to find and require that you know exactly what you're looking for, information you can only get from 2 sources in the galaxy.  To even know about the IFF you need to know about the Reapers as well as their connection to the Collectors; two things they work hard to make sure don't happen.  The only reason the Reapers lost the base is that the Protheans were able to do something that should have been impossible.  It is not idiocy to be unprepared in such a case.

[UNAVAILABLE]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
What evidence do we have that the O4 relay and CB existed prior to the last cycle? 

A graveyard of ancient derelict vessels surrounding the base, perhaps.
Caveat: I understand that the description of "ancient" is Joker's assessment. The reason I take it to be true is that EDI doesn't pipe in to correct him. She could say "all ship profiles match known Asari, Salarian, etc. ships" thus proving that all the ships come from the current extinction cycle. She remains silent, however, which I take to mean that she agrees with Joker.

Typically you don't send your best and brightest on field work.  They stay back and analyze data/tech sent back by the people who do field work.  A valid point, the people you'd send on field work are still valuable but it's not like you'd be chopping off your own head.

Typically, you are right. But most things that people are studying have a foundation of accepted knowledge that less well trained experts can draw on. For example, if you are studying a new planet, you can send your geologist graduate students to collect samples/data, if you are studying a new plant, you send your botanist graduate students. There is no ReaperTechU. The whole thing is a complete unknown. This is one of those atypical situations where I maintain that you would have to send the best and brightest on site because there aren't any people who are just going to know what samples to take and what data to collect.

[Killer305]

Anyone considered that reaper indoctrination is possible while being on that base.  I mean if they made that place I bet they left little traps for the wouldbe capturer. 

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
What evidence do we have that the O4 relay and CB existed prior to the last cycle? 

A graveyard of ancient derelict vessels surrounding the base, perhaps.
Caveat: I understand that the description of "ancient" is Joker's assessment. The reason I take it to be true is that EDI doesn't pipe in to correct him. She could say "all ship profiles match known Asari, Salarian, etc. ships" thus proving that all the ships come from the current extinction cycle. She remains silent, however, which I take to mean that she agrees with Joker.

Would they be known though?  How much info would a human organization really have on ancient alien ship design?  Think of how much cars have changed in terms of design and consider that before humans came on stage the other races had been making spacecraft for millenia.  The problem with taking her silence to mean anything is that it can mean just that, anything.  For all she doesn't say, "All ships match known Asari, Salarian, etc." she also doesn't say, "Many of the vessels match no known species design."

The Omega 4 relay is a lure, I can easily believe that there are scientists who've dedicated their lives to getting to the other side and sent ship after ship through in the hopes that one would return.  The number and even design of the ships is not indicative of anything, some scientist could have thought a different design would fair better so it wouldn't match any known profile.

Or who's to say in the 50,000 years since the Protheans other races didn't reach the Citadel before the Asari and simply destroyed themselves before they arrive.

The possibilities are endless and without definitive evidence to the contrary one is just as valid as another.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
So your saying that multi-million year old beings with the upper hand would be stupid to exhibit a little bit of patience to see how the scenario plays out?

When patience entails your secrets and the means of your advantages slipping out as long as you hold back from a blow where the largest advantage you receive is stopping the leaking of information?

Again with the assumptions that a couple of scientists on this base are going to rapidly uncover all the secrets that will turn this war around. Or that the Reapers most closely guarded secrets are even on the Base.

You did miss how those same best scientists don't have to be inside the base.

It would be akin to placing a bomb under a computer desk in an attempt to kill the world's best hacker, when said hacker could simply have someone take the computer out of the room.

Poor analogy. Most people have at least a basic enough understanding of computers to remove one from the room. In this case however the "computer" is so complex that it would take the world's best hacker to figure out how to remove it.

And I'm severly mistaken here, aren't you one of the people who has in the past relished destroying the base as a way to tell off TIM and make a break with Cerberus, and thus those 'best' scientists? 

I have no love for Cerberus. Relevance to the above arguments?

[mosor]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Ok, fair point. I still don't think it safe to assume that the Reapers are gibbering retards that over millions of years never once considered the possibility that someone might breach the O-4 relay and take the base.

They had pretty strong security there. I know it's a video game, and you're shepard, so everything seems easy. However it wasn't. Pretty much everything and the kitchen sink had to be obtained, to even have a remote possibility of succeeding. It wasn't called a suicide mission for no reason.

So not walking into the enemy's trap is the same as underestimating them?

You don't know for certain that it is a trap. Be on your guard and take as much precautions as you can. However if you do a cost benefit analysis, the potential rewards outweigh the potential risks.

So your argument is basically that the only options are "agree with you" or "run in fear". How about examining the rest of the treasure trove of alien tech that is in the debris field around the base? How about further examination of the mass accelerator weapon that killed the derelict Reaper? How about further study of the interraction between the Reaper IFF and the O-4 mass relay? If one relay can be made to respond differently to the Reaper IFF, then perhaps others can too. I personally like the thought of sitting back and watching as a relay catapults every Reaper that tries to pass through it into the nearest star. It'd be like watching a giant galactic bug zapper.

You're running in fear from the enemy! You're scared of the reapers, so you prefer to cut and run rather than grow some hair on your balls and learn. You can do everything you wrote and still study the collector base. You need to learn the capabilities of your enemy, or it may be too late to learn how to counter act it.

That was Prothean tech, NOT Reaper tech. Included in that "hundreds of years of gain" is the technology that was gained by trading with Council races after the first contact war.

It was a prothean cache, but it was reaper tech none the less. Where did you think the protheans got that tech from? The reapers cleansed prothean civilizations but left alone data caches like that so we'll develop in ways they intended. Having more information and tech they intended us to possess is probably the best way to beat the reapers.

No, the Conduit had to be in place before the Reaper invasion began, otherwise the Protheans could never have installed the Citadel end terminal. I can somewhat buy the limited resources argument (even though they had an entire planet and a large research facility at their disposal). And they weren't working in secret, Vigil awakened them after the Reapers already left, and the rest of the galaxy was dead.

Sure, it was on the citadel end, but whose to say it was on the ilos end initially as well. Maybe it wasn't fully functional yet.  As for the large planet and research facility, it doesn't mean they had everything they needed on planet at that time. You're also forgetting there were only 12 of them. No support staff. I call that limited resources.

Another unfounded assertion. Even if awesome data is obtained, the people that you would want to analyze it and build some awesome Reaper counter-measure, are the same people you just sacrificed to die on the base.

It's not unfounded. You're also assuming every human scientist in the galaxy will be at the collector base. Please. Maybe a small team and support staff, like they had in the derelict reaper.

I never claimed it did. I stated that all Reaper tech that has been examined so far has harmful/dangerous effects. Of which, indoctrination is one possibility.

So does atomic energy, virulent super pathogens, radiation, and god knows what else. How do we know these are dangers without research? Without studying it before hand, we get taken by suprise. i'd rather know what I'm facing before the shooting begins.

I would agree IF this were a normal factory that would allow you to see how the Reaper is assembled so you could get an idea of structural weaknesses etc. But it's not, it's some bizarre incubation chamber. Unless the Reaper's have some really lame vulnerability ("hey, look guys, they dissolve in water") then whatever tech you gain is hardly likely to be in weapon useable form. More R&D will be necessary to figure out how to use it. If we have that much time for study before the Reapers get here it seems that Shepard will be in an old folks home by the time the battle gets underway.

It is a factory that allows you to see how reapers are assembled. What do you think was going on there? Some guy got a reaper pregnant, and that embryo is being fed by dead human flesh? No! Nanobots were dissassembling organic life forms and using that material to build a reaper. Did you even for a second consider that these nanobots have the possibility to work in reverse and disassemble a reaper?

Hell even if we don't get anything technologically, we may get usefull intelligence on their plan of attack. That's better than being in the dark. No cutting and running for me. Destroying the base because there is the possibility of indoctrination, without even trying is the cowardly way.

Modifié par mosor, 22 septembre 2010 - 07:06 .

[Xilizhra]

They had pretty strong security there. I know it's a video game, and you're shepard, so everything seems easy. However it wasn't. Pretty much everything and the kitchen sink had to be obtained, to even have a remote possibility of succeeding. It wasn't called a suicide mission for no reason.

The security sucked. Aside from the Omega-4 instant death trap, their external defenses consisted of a few anti-fighter drones easily smashed by the debris field and a severely underarmored cruiser. You can go in totally un-upgraded and only lose three people; not the galaxy's greatest security.

You're running in fear from the enemy! You're scared of the reapers, so you prefer to cut and run rather than grow some hair on your balls and learn. You can do everything you wrote and still study the collector base. You need to learn the capabilities of your enemy, or it may be too late to learn how to counter act it.

It's worthy to learn about the capabilities of your enemy, but it seems best to do this without making another enemy.

[LorDC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I'm not trying to use that argument as a catch all for everything. I'm specifically using it to counter the argument that the Reapers never guessed that the O-4 relay would be breached. If I'm wrong and the Reapers were completely dumbfounded, well, then I guess the Reapers are idiots and this war should be easier to win than expected.

Problem is that any use of such argument invalidates your whole point(see Popper's criteria).

[Deflagratio]

"By using our technology, your species develops along the paths we desire."



That's why you blow it up. The galaxy's greatest asset is it's unpredictability.





Of course, you could always just drop Shepard into a Reaper and blow it up from the inside. It's not particularly hard, and even less so if some idiot doesn't leave a science team to get Husk'd.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

They had pretty strong security there. I know it's a video game, and you're shepard, so everything seems easy. However it wasn't. Pretty much everything and the kitchen sink had to be obtained, to even have a remote possibility of succeeding. It wasn't called a suicide mission for no reason.

The security sucked. Aside from the Omega-4 instant death trap, their external defenses consisted of a few anti-fighter drones easily smashed by the debris field and a severely underarmored cruiser. You can go in totally un-upgraded and only lose three people; not the galaxy's greatest security.

The nigh inescapable death trap, and the fact Collector tech is always at least 10 years ahead of galactic standard, would seem to make any ship not designed with an assault on the Collectors in mind ineffective in assaulting the base.  Keep in mind what you needed to do to get past the relay in the first place.

Xilizhra wrote...

You're running in fear from the enemy! You're scared of the reapers, so you prefer to cut and run rather than grow some hair on your balls and learn. You can do everything you wrote and still study the collector base. You need to learn the capabilities of your enemy, or it may be too late to learn how to counter act it.

It's worthy to learn about the capabilities of your enemy, but it seems best to do this without making another enemy.

To whom do you refer?

[Xilizhra]

To whom do you refer?

Cerberus. It's perceived as an enemy of the galaxy, and for reasons I've already stated, I don't believe it's a good idea to give them the base.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

To whom do you refer?

Cerberus. It's perceived as an enemy of the galaxy, and for reasons I've already stated, I don't believe it's a good idea to give them the base.

Ok then just wasn't sure.  Thought you might be referring to giving the base to TIM making the Council your enemy.  Had that been the case I'd have been forced to point out they haven't been particularly useful as allies thus far.

As for Cerberus being your enemy just remember that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and until the Reapers are taken care of cooperation is still in their, and your, best interests.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

To whom do you refer?

Cerberus. It's perceived as an enemy of the galaxy, and for reasons I've already stated, I don't believe it's a good idea to give them the base.

I agree. The point is it's a worse idea to destroy it.

[General User]

A blown up Collector base is not without value, depending on who did the blowing up.



The galaxy of Mass Effect is severely divided along racial lines. There is immense propaganda value to the idea that a multi-species commando unit was able to strike a serious blow against the Reapers, especially if forging some sort of united front against the Reapers is the next step.

[Xilizhra]

Ok then just wasn't sure. Thought you might be referring to giving the base to TIM making the Council your enemy. Had that been the case I'd have been forced to point out they haven't been particularly useful as allies thus far.



As for Cerberus being your enemy just remember that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and until the Reapers are taken care of cooperation is still in their, and your, best interests.

You could make the Council and the Alliance your enemies as well, which would suck, or you could empower Cerberus to screw with galactic stability in some other way. And the reason the Council hasn't been useful as allies is because the Reapers are a nebulous and unproven threat; you, on the other hand, are a clear and present threat, as is Cerberus.

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...


The security sucked. Aside from the Omega-4 instant death trap, their external defenses consisted of a few anti-fighter drones easily smashed by the debris field and a severely underarmored cruiser. You can go in totally un-upgraded and only lose three people; not the galaxy's greatest security.

You're not factoring in quality of the team, loyalty missions, using the wrong person for the job. You could very well way more than 3 people. As I said, your opinion that the security sucked is just based on that it's a video game where shepard has strong plot armor (you really have to work hard to die on the suicide mission). There was an army of collectors plus massive seeker swarms there. It wasn't easy. It just seemed that way.

It's worthy to learn about the capabilities of your enemy, but it seems best to do this without making another enemy.

Wut? Cerberus is only your enemy if you're determined to have them as one.

Modifié par mosor, 22 septembre 2010 - 08:00 .