3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Stuck in the past and very, very naive in his defense against Cerberus.

Her defense.

We have enough problems with the Reapers already, I don't need another enemy in my already encumbered roster of people who want Shepard's head.

Let's not add the Council. Bingo. If TIM is smart and not crazy, and genuinely wants to stop the Reapers, he'll fall into line and won't get in my way.

Also, how do you plan to eliminate a multi Billionaire corporation (Aerospace) and an organoization as big as Cerberus with only the Normandy and your crew?

The same way I eliminate all of my enemies; pursue them into areas that have suspiciously high amounts of easy cover, and shoot people until the mission is over.

I have bigger things to worry about then running around after cerberus. Get with the program. the reapers are coming and you need all the help you can get (that includes Cerberus).

I don't intend to chase Cerberus unless they get in my way. If they get with the program, we'll have no problems.

[PWENER]

These two won't stop. I'll ignore them and get back to the Collector base topic.

[Barquiel]

PWENER wrote...

Also, how do you plan to eliminate a multi Billionaire corporation (Aerospace) and an organoization as big as Cerberus with only the Normandy and your crew?

The same crew who killed the Shadow Broker?

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not only did Cerberus give you a second chance at life, but they also gave you the tools you needed to complete your mission against the collectors.

And I did. Deal completed. I can ignore them, unless they get in my way, in which case they'll be crushed.

What is this idea people have that it's either/or?  Whatever you think of Cerberus' goals and methods they are a valuable resource and it'd be ridiculous to just cast them aside.

[Xilizhra]

These two won't stop. I'll ignore them and get back to the Collector base topic.

Have you never been in an Internet debate before? It never stops until one party gets bored, has to leave, or realizes that they can't come up with a new argument. You'll never, ever see anyone admitting that they're wrong.

What is this idea people have that it's either/or?  Whatever you think
of Cerberus' goals and methods they are a valuable resource and it'd be
ridiculous to just cast them aside.

If they prove themselves useful against the Reapers without the base, then fine, they can do their part until this is all over.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 septembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[PWENER]

That post actually makes sense Xili.



Wrex: I guess your not a lost cause Turian.... err.... human.

[PWENER]

Im calling the bored card then. Can we get back on topic now?

[forgivingrud]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

It doesn't bother me, because I realize Mass Effect works on video game logic. Using real logic won't jive with actual results.

This is true, since it really wouldnt be financially sound to make two different games, this decision is really only gonna affect either the first mission/level in the game or some dialogue (unlikely, but possibly go as far as choices) later along. The same conflict is gonna happen in both intances, just with different reasons as to why it was started in the first place (ex. Either Cerberus or the council going after you). The only way I can see the game branching off in truly different directions is in the final choices in the game and the ending you get. The rest of the game will most probably have the same levels and general experience for everyone becuase of this reason.

So in the end, choosing weather to  keep the base or not depends on who you think your character is, and what they would do. Because no matter how stupid the choices you made in the first two games could have been, you will still have the opportunity to win the game from the beginning, because from a bussiness point of view, they cant really sell you the game if it is impossible to beat because of how you played the previous titles. 

Im not saying that there probably wont be an ending where you fail at saving the galaxy, im just saying that the possability to save it must be present in everyones case at the start of it.

[Xilizhra]

PWENER wrote...

Im calling the bored card then. Can we get back on topic now?

Of course. Say something about that topic.

[Asheer_Khan]

There are two legal ways to shut down corporation who helped build Normandy II.



1. Proving that ship was build with usage of "industrial espionage".

2. Outfitted her with illegal within Council space (and somehow i think in terminus too) AI.



Those two points brought in court = insta shut down.

And i am more than sure that in data banks on board of SB ship is in off dirt to reshape entire Earth political and industrial "universe".

[PWENER]

Collector base gooooooooooooood. We neeeeeeeed it. Frodo stuuuuuuuuupid.

[Asheer_Khan]

PWENER wrote...

Collector base gooooooooooooood. We neeeeeeeed it. Frodo stuuuuuuuuupid.

Frodo DID lost his "battle of the will" with ring power at the end and everything end good only "thanks" to Smeagul .

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 22 septembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[PWENER]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Collector base gooooooooooooood. We neeeeeeeed it. Frodo stuuuuuuuuupid.

Frodo DID lost his "battle of the will" with ring power at the end and everything end good only "thanks" to Smeagul .

I've had it with your snide insinuations.

*FALCON PUNCH*

[Inverness Moon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not only did Cerberus give you a second chance at life, but they also gave you the tools you needed to complete your mission against the collectors.

And I did. Deal completed. I can ignore them, unless they get in my way, in which case they'll be crushed.

Cerberus brought you back to fight the reapers too, not just the collectors.

[Xilizhra]

I'll fight the Reapers. But I'm not working for them any longer.

[Sajuro]

The consequence of Keeping the base.

Shepard;

After you left we sent a prepared research team to find any technology that would give us an edge against the Reapers. We don't know exactly what happed but one of our scientists found a big red button in a room with the corpse of what we assume was the collector general, and following the proper Cerberus procedures he pressed it. We seem to have lost audio and visual contact with the base and its team, it may have very well been a self destruct mechanism.

- The Illusive Man

[UNAVAILABLE]

[quote]mosor wrote...
They had pretty strong security there. I know it's a video game, and you're shepard, so everything seems easy. However it wasn't. Pretty much everything and the kitchen sink had to be obtained, to even have a remote possibility of succeeding. It wasn't called a suicide mission for no reason.
[/quote]
Everything and the kitchen sink? Really? A fleet? No. Backup? No. Recon mission? No.
It was called a suicide mission because hardly any preparations were taken.
If the Normandy tried to take the Citadel, I'm pretty sure that C-Sec could stop Shepard from doing it. They may take massive casualties, but I don't think Shepard and co could pull it off. But the Collectors failed. Not what I call high security.
[quote]
You don't know for certain that it is a trap. Be on your guard and take as much precautions as you can. However if you do a cost benefit analysis, the potential rewards outweigh the potential risks.
[/quote]
And you don't know for certain that the potential rewards outweigh the potential risks. That is your opinion. One I don't necessarily share.

[quote]
You're running in fear from the enemy!
[/quote]

Considering that destroying the (assumed) base was the original objective of the mission, it's interesting that you would call completing that objective "running in fear from the enemy". Perhaps you could explain that logic.

[quote]
You're scared of the reapers, so you prefer to cut and run rather than grow some hair on your balls and learn.
[/quote]
And you're willing to treat your scientific community like front line troops that are easily sacrificed and replaced.

[quote]
It was a prothean cache, but it was reaper tech none the less. Where did you think the protheans got that tech from?
[/quote]
Yes, the underlying principles of some technology the Protheans learned from the Reapers, just like the modern galactic civilizations. To label ALL Prothean tech as Reaper tech would be like calling all Asari/Turian/human technology Reaper tech if it uses eezo/mass effect cores. Prothean tech is not Reaper tech. It is Prothean technology based upon principles learned from Reaper tech devices. That's a pretty significant difference.

[quote]
The reapers cleansed prothean civilizations but left alone data caches like that so we'll develop in ways they intended.
[/quote]
If I remember correctly, it is only the mass relays/Citadel that Sovereign claims to be left as developmental guides. I don't recall anything saying that pieces of Prothean tech were left untouched for that same purpose.
[quote]
Having more information and tech they intended us to possess is probably the best way to beat the reapers.
[/quote]
I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that the base doesn't necessarily represent the best way for that to happen.

[quote]
Sure, it was on the citadel end, but whose to say it was on the ilos end initially as well. Maybe it wasn't fully functional yet. As for the large planet and research facility, it doesn't mean they had everything they needed on planet at that time. You're also forgetting there were only 12 of them. No support staff. I call that limited resources.
[/quote]
So essentially you are arguing that because those scientists worked under adverse conditions we should ignore the fact that successful study of Reaper tech took them decades. Fine. What of the fact that Asari and Salarians have been studying mass relays and the Citadel for centuries to little or no avail? Past experience shows that the time scale required to study Reaper tech is simply too great to be of practical use in the current war.
[quote]
It's not unfounded. You're also assuming every human scientist in the galaxy will be at the collector base. Please. Maybe a small team and support staff, like they had in the derelict reaper.
[/quote]
No, I'm assuming the best and smartest scientists will be there. And considering how much larger this place is than the derelict Reaper and the increased urgency of the research I would expect the number of people involved to be substantially greater. Just how many Einstein level genius people do you think exist in the galaxy at any one time? How many can you afford to lose in a gamble?

[quote]
Did you even for a second consider that these nanobots have the possibility to work in reverse and disassemble a reaper?
[/quote]
Congratulations, that is the first convincing idea of a potentially useful tech gain that I've read on this thread. My concern would be that Reapers created from different base creatures have physiological differences that go beyond the Reaper's appearance. I wouldn't want to invest too much time developing a weapon that works perfectly against human Reapers (of which there are now presumably, none) but fails utterly against the sentient shrimp. If the derelict Reaper were still around, and testing was a possibility, I might feel differently.

So ultimately, we come back to the earlier point of "do the potential risks outweigh the potential benefits"?
I still feel that they do. I consider gains from the Base to be a long shot with a high potential for negative backlash.
But, for a renegade character who doesn't care how big the pile of innocents is as long as the mission gets accomplished, I can see it's a choice that has some merit.

[quote]
Hell even if we don't get anything technologically, we may get usefull intelligence on their plan of attack.
[/quote]

If Harbinger didn't think to format the data disks before bailing, he deserves to lose. 

[quote]
No cutting and running for me[/quote]

Cut & run, cut & run, you love that government propaganda, don't you.

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I'm not trying to use that argument as a catch all for everything. I'm specifically using it to counter the argument that the Reapers never guessed that the O-4 relay would be breached. If I'm wrong and the Reapers were completely dumbfounded, well, then I guess the Reapers are idiots and this war should be easier to win than expected.

I mentioned this last page but how does that make them idiots?  The Omega relay is designed to be impossible to use without an IFF, only 3 of them exist in the galaxy at any given time, all of them are nearly impossible to find and require that you know exactly what you're looking for, information you can only get from 2 sources in the galaxy.  To even know about the IFF you need to know about the Reapers as well as their connection to the Collectors; two things they work hard to make sure don't happen.  The only reason the Reapers lost the base is that the Protheans were able to do something that should have been impossible.  It is not idiocy to be unprepared in such a case.

It's stupid to put a bunch of mass relays about the galaxy for the explicit purpose of organic beings to use, and then being caught unprepared that they used them. And of all those relays, they lock one . That's basically putting a big sign on it saying "hey, I'm different, study me". And they're suprised? Yeah, I'd say that fits my definition of stupid.

[Iakus]

Sajuro wrote...

The consequence of Keeping the base.

Shepard;

After you left we sent a prepared research team to find any technology that would give us an edge against the Reapers. We don't know exactly what happed but one of our scientists found a big red button in a room with the corpse of what we assume was the collector general, and following the proper Cerberus procedures he pressed it. We seem to have lost audio and visual contact with the base and its team, it may have very well been a self destruct mechanism.

- The Illusive Man

I think you're a bit optomistic in your assesment of Cerberus.  No way they'd go out as cleanly as a self-destruct.  No, they'd find something that would kill them all horribly and use the corpses as some kind of terrible (un)living weapon against as rescue team

Modifié par iakus, 23 septembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[Inverness Moon]

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]
You're running in fear from the enemy!
[/quote]

Considering that destroying the (assumed) base was the original objective of the mission, it's interesting that you would call completing that objective "running in fear from the enemy". Perhaps you could explain that logic.
[/quote]That is not an argument. Mission objectives can change at any time, any competent leader would be able to adapt.
[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]
You're scared of the reapers, so you prefer to cut and run rather than grow some hair on your balls and learn.
[/quote]
And you're willing to treat your scientific community like front line troops that are easily sacrificed and replaced.[/quote]Don't make such assumptions. Risk is a part of life, and in this case, when faced with extinction, the risk is necessary. Just because someone thinks studying the base is a necessary risk, doesn't mean that person thinks the people doing the studying are easily sacrificed and replaced.

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]
Having more information and tech they intended us to possess is probably the best way to beat the reapers.
[/quote]
I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that the base doesn't necessarily represent the best way for that to happen.
[/quote]Until a better way surfaces, you have to work with what you've got.

In my opinion it is riskier to destroy the base without knowing you have some other way to deal with the reapers (even then, that isn't cool since you need a plan .
[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]
Sure, it was on the citadel end, but whose to say it was on the ilos end initially as well. Maybe it wasn't fully functional yet. As for the large planet and research facility, it doesn't mean they had everything they needed on planet at that time. You're also forgetting there were only 12 of them. No support staff. I call that limited resources.
[/quote]
So essentially you are arguing that because those scientists worked under adverse conditions we should ignore the fact that successful study of Reaper tech took them decades. Fine. What of the fact that Asari and Salarians have been studying mass relays and the Citadel for centuries to little or no avail? Past experience shows that the time scale required to study Reaper tech is simply too great to be of practical use in the current war.
[/quote]I think it is logical to say that the mass relays, along with the Citadel, were designed to be difficult to research. However, your example is not applicable in this case, because there is a difference between studying mass relays and being given a factory that builds mass relays.
[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]
It's not unfounded. You're also assuming every human scientist in the galaxy will be at the collector base. Please. Maybe a small team and support staff, like they had in the derelict reaper.
[/quote]
No, I'm assuming the best and smartest scientists will be there. And considering how much larger this place is than the derelict Reaper and the increased urgency of the research I would expect the number of people involved to be substantially greater. Just how many Einstein level genius people do you think exist in the galaxy at any one time? How many can you afford to lose in a gamble?
[/quote]You seem to be assuming TIM would put all his eggs in one basket, assuming that Cerberus is going to be doing the bulk of the research and development. You also seem to be assuming that research needs to be done on the collector base. I can't imagine it being difficult to download schematics on reapers and their technology from the base's computers and then having their best scientists research and test from the safety of hidden Cerberus stations/bases.
[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]
Did you even for a second consider that these nanobots have the possibility to work in reverse and disassemble a reaper?
[/quote]
Congratulations, that is the first convincing idea of a potentially useful tech gain that I've read on this thread. My concern would be that Reapers created from different base creatures have physiological differences that go beyond the Reaper's appearance. I wouldn't want to invest too much time developing a weapon that works perfectly against human Reapers (of which there are now presumably, none) but fails utterly against the sentient shrimp. If the derelict Reaper were still around, and testing was a possibility, I might feel differently.[/quote]It doesn't matter how different the reapers are, they'll still die if you blow them up. Nanobots could possibly just disassemble whatever materials they encounter, be it metal or organic. You do have a point though, that the differences in the reapers might be an important factor depending on what kind of weapon you're using.

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

So ultimately, we come back to the earlier point of "do the potential risks outweigh the potential benefits"?
I still feel that they do. I consider gains from the Base to be a long shot with a high potential for negative backlash.
But, for a renegade character who doesn't care how big the pile of innocents is as long as the mission gets accomplished, I can see it's a choice that has some merit.[/quote]
I don't look at it from the same perspective. As someone who kept the base, I had two choices: give the base to TIM and hope his efforts bear gains that outweigh any losses due to his methods, or blow up the base without knowing if we'll ever find anything else that could possibly give us an edge against the reapers.

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]
Hell even if we don't get anything technologically, we may get usefull intelligence on their plan of attack.
[/quote]

If Harbinger didn't think to format the data disks before bailing, he deserves to lose.[/quote]I'm sure he thought of it, but was he able to?

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
It's stupid to put a bunch of mass relays about the galaxy for the explicit purpose of organic beings to use, and then being caught unprepared that they used them. And of all those relays, they lock one . That's basically putting a big sign on it saying "hey, I'm different, study me". And they're suprised? Yeah, I'd say that fits my definition of stupid.

They weren't unprepared for organics using the relays though.  It is not idiocy to fail to prepare for the nigh impossible.  Think of it like weather, there are 10 year storms, 50 year storms, 100 year storms, etc.  A 10 year storm is a severe storm that happens, on average, once in a period of 10 years.  A 50 year storm is an even more severe storm once in a period of 50 years.  Most buildings and cities only prepare for at most a 100 year storm.  What you're claiming is that the Reapers are stupid for not preparing for a 1 billion year storm.  The odds of someone not only getting through the relay, but knowing what it is their going in to, are so minute, so insignificant it wouldn't make sense to prepare for it.  Remember the Reaper plan is based on no survivors.  It is only pure luck that a few Protheans survived and even greater luck that they were able to get a message to the next cycle warning of their impending doom.  Had the Prothean cycle gone according to plan, as every other cycle has, they would not be in this problem.  They failed to consider that their fool proof plan could fail, that is not idiocy that's arrogance.

[Arijharn]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I'm not trying to use that argument as a catch all for everything. I'm specifically using it to counter the argument that the Reapers never guessed that the O-4 relay would be breached. If I'm wrong and the Reapers were completely dumbfounded, well, then I guess the Reapers are idiots and this war should be easier to win than expected.

I mentioned this last page but how does that make them idiots?  The Omega relay is designed to be impossible to use without an IFF, only 3 of them exist in the galaxy at any given time, all of them are nearly impossible to find and require that you know exactly what you're looking for, information you can only get from 2 sources in the galaxy.  To even know about the IFF you need to know about the Reapers as well as their connection to the Collectors; two things they work hard to make sure don't happen.  The only reason the Reapers lost the base is that the Protheans were able to do something that should have been impossible.  It is not idiocy to be unprepared in such a case.

It's stupid to put a bunch of mass relays about the galaxy for the explicit purpose of organic beings to use, and then being caught unprepared that they used them. And of all those relays, they lock one . That's basically putting a big sign on it saying "hey, I'm different, study me". And they're suprised? Yeah, I'd say that fits my definition of stupid.

It wasn't 'locked' really, it's just EDI doesn't let you use it without preparation or finding a way to 'safely navigate it' because it is common knowledge that everyone who goes through it doesn't return.

[smudboy]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I'm not trying to use that argument as a catch all for everything. I'm specifically using it to counter the argument that the Reapers never guessed that the O-4 relay would be breached. If I'm wrong and the Reapers were completely dumbfounded, well, then I guess the Reapers are idiots and this war should be easier to win than expected.

I mentioned this last page but how does that make them idiots?  The Omega relay is designed to be impossible to use without an IFF, only 3 of them exist in the galaxy at any given time, all of them are nearly impossible to find and require that you know exactly what you're looking for, information you can only get from 2 sources in the galaxy.  To even know about the IFF you need to know about the Reapers as well as their connection to the Collectors; two things they work hard to make sure don't happen.  The only reason the Reapers lost the base is that the Protheans were able to do something that should have been impossible.  It is not idiocy to be unprepared in such a case.

It's stupid to put a bunch of mass relays about the galaxy for the explicit purpose of organic beings to use, and then being caught unprepared that they used them. And of all those relays, they lock one . That's basically putting a big sign on it saying "hey, I'm different, study me". And they're suprised? Yeah, I'd say that fits my definition of stupid.

ME2 has shown Reapers aren't as intelligent as they were originally thought up.

Heck, simple probes (non-IFF) were recovered from the SB that they sent out (alibi destroyed.)

[Sajuro]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

It's stupid to put a bunch of mass relays about the galaxy for the explicit purpose of organic beings to use, and then being caught unprepared that they used them. And of all those relays, they lock one . That's basically putting a big sign on it saying "hey, I'm different, study me". And they're suprised? Yeah, I'd say that fits my definition of stupid.

What's stupid is making it a different color than regular mass relays

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...


What's stupid is making it a different color than regular mass relays

I'm forced to agree, but maybe it was only shown as red so we wouldn't do something stupid and then they made that stupidity impossible to do do anyway. Or maybe it was done so you knew this was the end of the game and to suitably prepare for it.