3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Arijharn wrote...

Sajuro wrote...


What's stupid is making it a different color than regular mass relays

I'm forced to agree, but maybe it was only shown as red so we wouldn't do something stupid and then they made that stupidity impossible to do do anyway. Or maybe it was done so you knew this was the end of the game and to suitably prepare for it.

Also they seemed to make it bigger.
Reaper 1: Okay, here's the relay to our secret base
Reaper 2: Lets make it bigger and glow red!
Reaper 1: what? How would that help it be secret?
Reaper 2: it would be cool!
Reaper 1: whatever, it's your responsibility Harbinger -flies off-

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...
Also they seemed to make it bigger.
Reaper 1: Okay, here's the relay to our secret base
Reaper 2: Lets make it bigger and glow red!
Reaper 1: what? How would that help it be secret?
Reaper 2: it would be cool!
Reaper 1: whatever, it's your responsibility Harbinger -flies off-

Reaper 1: Mine's bigger than yours.
Reaper 2: No it isn't
Reaper 1: Yes it bloody well is, it's .3568km larger, measure it yourself
Reaper 2: ...Well, it's not how large it is, but how you use it.
Reaper 1: Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Reaper 2: *mumbles*

[Sajuro]

If Mass Relays can be turned off, why didn't they just make it so the IFF would it would be the only one to be able to turn on the Relay which would turn off after they passed through.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Sajuro wrote...

The consequence of Keeping the base.

Shepard;

After you left we sent a prepared research team to find any technology that would give us an edge against the Reapers. We don't know exactly what happed but one of our scientists found a big red button in a room with the corpse of what we assume was the collector general, and following the proper Cerberus procedures he pressed it. We seem to have lost audio and visual contact with the base and its team, it may have very well been a self destruct mechanism.

- The Illusive Man

I picture it going down with Lumberg from Office Space as the Illusive Man:

Shepard. Yeah, hiiiii. You know that Collector Base you captured. Yeah, well, there were some problems, a little...miscommunication, and, uh, we're going to need you to go ahead and run that last mission again, okay.
So if you could go ahead and do that, that would be great.

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
It's stupid to put a bunch of mass relays about the galaxy for the explicit purpose of organic beings to use, and then being caught unprepared that they used them. And of all those relays, they lock one . That's basically putting a big sign on it saying "hey, I'm different, study me". And they're suprised? Yeah, I'd say that fits my definition of stupid.

They weren't unprepared for organics using the relays though.  It is not idiocy to fail to prepare for the nigh impossible.  Think of it like weather, there are 10 year storms, 50 year storms, 100 year storms, etc.  A 10 year storm is a severe storm that happens, on average, once in a period of 10 years.  A 50 year storm is an even more severe storm once in a period of 50 years.  Most buildings and cities only prepare for at most a 100 year storm.  What you're claiming is that the Reapers are stupid for not preparing for a 1 billion year storm.  The odds of someone not only getting through the relay, but knowing what it is their going in to, are so minute, so insignificant it wouldn't make sense to prepare for it. Remember the Reaper plan is based on no survivors.  It is only pure luck that a few Protheans survived and even greater luck that they were able to get a message to the next cycle warning of their impending doom.  Had the Prothean cycle gone according to plan, as every other cycle has, they would not be in this problem.  They failed to consider that their fool proof plan could fail, that is not idiocy that's arrogance.

So you are arguing that the Reapers carry out the same plan over and over again with little or no variance? Hmmm . . . that sounds like what NON-sentient machines do. Hardly an argument to convince me of their greater intelligence. In fact it makes the Reapers sound like little more than high-tech trash collector drones of some long dead civilization. I could see the exchange with Sovereign in ME1 going like this:

Shepard: What do you want with us, slaves, resources?
Sovereign: My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence.
Shepard: That doesn't answer the question.
Sovereign: uh, well.
Shepard: You don't even know, do you?
Sovereign: Unhandled exception error in subroutine QuestionOfPurpose.
Shepard: Ha! I knew it.
Sovereign: (Defensively) Shut up!

Let's assume for the sake of argument that I agree with you up to this point. The Reapers had not one, but two major red flag warnings that the situation had changed. The Citadel Relay failed to open, and Sovereign was destroyed. If their failsafe plan fails twice and they still consider it failsafe, then they meet my definition of stupid.

Oh, and assuming that humanity is the billion year storm because we're just oh so much better than everyone else - that's arrogance.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:37 .

[UNAVAILABLE]

Inverness Moon wrote...
That is not an argument. Mission objectives can change at any time, any competent leader would be able to adapt.

And any competent leader that recognizes that the plan is a good one would stick to the plan.

I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that the base doesn't necessarily represent the best way for that to happen.

Until a better way surfaces, you have to work with what you've got.

As I stated in an earlier message, there are other options. The defunct mass accelerator cannon that took out the Derelict Reaper, and the graveyard of ancient ships surrounding the Base. Both of these offer a potential wealth of technology without that messy indoctrination and turning into husks business.

You seem to be assuming TIM would put all his eggs in one basket, assuming that Cerberus is going to be doing the bulk of the research and development.

I'm assuming that TIM would put a lot of valuable eggs in one basket, a basket that looks and smells like a trap to me.

You also seem to be assuming that research needs to be done on the collector base. I can't imagine it being difficult to download schematics on reapers and their technology from the base's computers and then having their best scientists research and test from the safety of hidden Cerberus stations/bases.

That's strange, I have absolutely no difficulty imagining that it might be difficult to access and download information from Reaper computers.

It doesn't matter how different the reapers are, they'll still die if you blow them up.

Exactly. But what about the Reaper factory is involved in making things blow up? In other words, how would you take the technology used to build a Reaper and turn it into a cannon? And quickly. And somehow test its effectiveness. The defunct mass accelerator weapon is something that is proven to kill Reapers. Unlike the tech you would get from the Base, you don't have to understand its inner workings AND THEN convert it into a weapon. Simply put, it's an easier goal to reach.

If Harbinger didn't think to format the data disks before bailing, he deserves to lose.

I'm sure he thought of it, but was he able to?

Considering how easy it is to do through remote access to another computer IRL, and considering that Harbinger watched the entire battle from his connection, he had ample warning and opportunity. So yeah, if he didn't do it, he deserves to lose.

[Arijharn]

Don't you think it's overly complicated then to assume that if:

• They work out of proxies who specifically go out of their way to abduct human colonists in locations that would not really meet widespread response (aka, in the legal limbo land that is the Terminus Systems.)

• Construct a Reaper in the most inhospitable place in the galaxy and by deliberately masking the area (There are no fleets protecting the base, it relies on stealth amongst a sea of wreckage)

• Expect the enemy to not only gain entrance to the Mass Relay through statistically unlikely means (what's the chances surely that they would gather that someone would gain the Reaper IFF from a dead Reaper -- and that they expected it to happen?) but to also gain entrance to the base itself, disguised as it is.

• The Collector's have operated in such secrecy themselves that most people don't even believe they exist.



I mean, if the Collector Base was somewhere obvious like say, I dunno in the Hades Gamma system that is patrolled by a highly advanced race (the Collectors) who zealously guards their borders and are isolationists (i.e., the Collector area is visible but is strictly non-approachable) then I might be more inclined to believe it's a trap.

However, because the base is primarily so unapproachable because no one knows it exists and the Collectors have no known connection to the Reapers (other than during Shephard's investigation of course) then I'm inclined to believe otherwise, it's just so overtly complicated to the point its nonsensical, it's like a puzzle that has no answer.



As loathe as I am to include meta-gaming in any discussion it should be obvious that a renegade response like this will be an unwinnable decision in the sense that the Reapers planned it all in advance and 'surprise sucka you just sprung a trap.'

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...
Would they be known though?  How much info would a human organization really have on ancient alien ship design?  Think of how much cars have changed in terms of design and consider that before humans came on stage the other races had been making spacecraft for millenia.  The problem with taking her silence to mean anything is that it can mean just that, anything.  For all she doesn't say, "All ships match known Asari, Salarian, etc." she also doesn't say, "Many of the vessels match no known species design."

The problem I have with them being old Asari or Salarian ships is the word ancient. In the context of this game, we're dealing with beings millions of years old, others extinct for 50,000 years. By way of comparison 2 or 3 past millenia is still "current events" not ancient (especially considering long lifespans of Asari and Krogan). I realize that this argument runs the risk of being more directed at Bioware's choice of words rather than the content of the story, but still.

Or who's to say in the 50,000 years since the Protheans other races didn't reach the Citadel before the Asari and simply destroyed themselves before they arrive.

An interesting possibility. However, a race that masters interstellar travel to the point where they're performing test runs into the O-4 relay would probably leave some traces to their existence. After all they wouldn't have had the galactic clean up crew sweeping all evidence of them away.

The possibilities are endless and without definitive evidence to the contrary one is just as valid as another.

True, but unlike many of the other hypotheticals discussed in this thread, this is something that a science/recon team could answer relatively easily (easily compared to studying a Collector Base or arm wrestling a Reaper).

[UNAVAILABLE]

Arijharn wrote...
I mean, if the Collector Base was somewhere obvious like say, I dunno in the Hades Gamma system that is patrolled by a highly advanced race (the Collectors) who zealously guards their borders and are isolationists (i.e., the Collector area is visible but is strictly non-approachable) then I might be more inclined to believe it's a trap.

I don't mean to suggest that the Reapers planned all along for this base to be a trap. I am suggesting that the Reapers are adaptable and savvy enough to make it into an effective trap without much effort.

[Harry Voyager]

Well, for me, every time a group has attempted to study mostly working Reaper technology, they've become indoctrinated.  After the number of husk hoards as I've run into that have come from semi working reaper tech, I figure the only way to safely study it is to blow it into really tiny peices first.  Make sure it is very very dead, and shoot it again, just in case.

Harry Voyager

Addendum:

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
I mean,
if the Collector Base was somewhere obvious like say, I dunno in the
Hades Gamma system that is patrolled by a highly advanced race (the
Collectors) who zealously guards their borders and are isolationists
(i.e., the Collector area is visible but is strictly non-approachable)
then I might be more inclined to believe it's a trap.

I
don't mean to suggest that the Reapers planned all along for this base
to be a trap. I am suggesting that the Reapers are adaptable and savvy
enough to make it into an effective trap without much effort.

A dead Reaper was indoctrinating people and turning them into husks.  It doesn't require planning on their part; they cause it merely by being there.  Everything the Reapers do seems to indoctrinate people, so I'm just very leary of assuming that the base of a millions of years old race of indoctrinated slaves would be the one Reaper thing that doesn't indoctrinate everything it happens to come int ocontact with.

Modifié par Harry Voyager, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Vamp-Willow]

Harry Voyager wrote:

A dead Reaper was indoctrinating people and turning them into husks.  It doesn't require planning on their part; they cause it merely by being there.  Everything the Reapers do seems to indoctrinate people, so I'm just very leary of assuming that the base of a millions of years old race of indoctrinated slaves would be the one Reaper thing that doesn't indoctrinate everything it happens to come int ocontact with.

Yeah that was one of the main reasons I blew the base, plus I didn't trust TIM with it either. I could see him trying to make himself into a Human Reaper.

BTW and sorry if this been asked... but how did TIM get those ships of his to the Collector's base so fast?

Modifié par Vamp-Willow, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Arijharn]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
I mean, if the Collector Base was somewhere obvious like say, I dunno in the Hades Gamma system that is patrolled by a highly advanced race (the Collectors) who zealously guards their borders and are isolationists (i.e., the Collector area is visible but is strictly non-approachable) then I might be more inclined to believe it's a trap.

I don't mean to suggest that the Reapers planned all along for this base to be a trap. I am suggesting that the Reapers are adaptable and savvy enough to make it into an effective trap without much effort.

But... how could they effectively make it into a trap in hindsight?

Since it's in the galactic core, and the Reapers are approaching from an angle that isn't from below the galactic plane, then it's not as if they could blitzkrieg the base before Cerberus can respond.

A 'timed radiation pulse' (presumingly of short duration but exceptional lethality) kills all living occupants on the station so there can't be many (if any) ambushes they need to worry about, and you can bet dollars to donuts that Cerberus will send in actual well armed commando's to deal with any 'non organic' threats like perhaps Praetorians.

Even if the Human-Reaper does still indoctrinate; there's still 3/4 of the station to explore/categorize and technology 'harvested' without that much added risk.

If the Human-Reaper doesn't indoctrinate then there are no risks involved other than stubbing one's toe sifting through the wreckage. If it does still indoctrinate then there are methods to circumvent this risk even if it's as basic as a rotating crew roster. You could even remote study something by sending in specialised droids or something, there are literally hundreds of ways you could offer contrivances to get around this.

[Commander Kurt]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I don't mean to suggest that the Reapers planned all along for this base to be a trap. I am suggesting that the Reapers are adaptable and savvy enough to make it into an effective trap without much effort.

Who is to say that the base was not a trap intended for some other species VERY long ago, replaced by the next species trying to save themselves from the reapers and their collectors, replaced by the next species, and finally a long way down the line replaced by the protheans..?

There would probably have been collectors around every time a new reaper was created (just given how it is created), and they seem to be replaced from time to time (given that the ones we encountered were protheans). Is the collector base actually a collector collector? Is that the fate in store for the ones who kept it? Hell if I know..

[SirFelix]

Why did I destroy the collectors base?



Because if I kept it you and I both know TIM would of continued there work just too see what exactly they were up too...who knows he might still be doing that right now....

[Asheer_Khan]

By the way i noticed that almost all pro cerberus threads disappeared from 1 page of this forum and this thread remain as last "bastion" of timmy's supporters.... strange.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Arijharn wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I don't mean to suggest that the Reapers planned all along for this base to be a trap. I am suggesting that the Reapers are adaptable and savvy enough to make it into an effective trap without much effort.

But... how could they effectively make it into a trap in hindsight?

The same way that the IFF in a million year dead Reaper could have a virus on it that nearly took down the Normandy. It's not done with hindsight, it's done with forethought. Reapers have a long history of dealing with organics and have to be prepared to deal with those pesky critters trying to deconstruct/reverse engineer their technology. Experience shows that Reapers build traps into just about everything. If I found a Reaper keychain I'd be suspicious.

Since it's in the galactic core, and the Reapers are approaching from an angle that isn't from below the galactic plane, then it's not as if they could blitzkrieg the base before Cerberus can respond.

Unless there are other Collector bases in the core (which is vast and largely unexplored)

A 'timed radiation pulse' (presumingly of short duration but exceptional lethality) kills all living occupants on the station so there can't be many (if any) ambushes they need to worry about, and you can bet dollars to donuts that Cerberus will send in actual well armed commando's to deal with any 'non organic' threats like perhaps Praetorians.

Harbinger directly controlled a Collector general through this base, who can say what systems he could still access by remote. Including perhaps triggering a timed radiation pusle of his own.

Aside Question: Would radiation kill dormant husks? Analyze and discuss.

Even if the Human-Reaper does still indoctrinate; there's still 3/4 of the station to explore/categorize and technology 'harvested' without that much added risk.

Assuming that the base itself doesn't indoctrinate.

If the Human-Reaper doesn't indoctrinate then there are no risks involved other than stubbing one's toe sifting through the wreckage.

Or accidently turning off the stabilizers and dropping the whole thing into the black hole.
 

If it does still indoctrinate then there are methods to circumvent this risk even if it's as basic as a rotating crew roster. You could even remote study something by sending in specialised droids or something, there are literally hundreds of ways you could offer contrivances to get around this.

A rotating crew ignores the complexity of the task. Indoctrination works quickly in days or a couple of weeks. Reaper tech typically requires years of intensive study by the best and smartest. How much worse would it get if you have to switch out scientists every few days, have the person rotating out give the person rotating in a complete briefing of everything discovered over the last couple of days. That's as likely to drive the crew insane as indoctrination.

And who exactly has droids on the market that include the tools and attachments necessary for disassembling Reaper tech? Did we luck out and all Reapers are assembled using Phillips #2 screws? Or is it more likely that you would spend your first 6 months trying to invent the droid that might be able to pull off the task. Also, this is Cerberus we're talking about. Are they more likely to spend time making sure that the job can be done safely, or will they just keep throwing bodies at the problem in the fleeting hope that one of them will figure out something useful. I know where I'd put my money.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Vamp-Willow wrote...
BTW and sorry if this been asked... but how did TIM get those ships of his to the Collector's base so fast?

Apparently he was able to get a bunch of Reaper IFFs off ME-Bay.

The other alternative is that the Reaper IFF is not all that complicated and no extensive study was required to figure out how to make a human built transmitter broadcast the signal. There is a problem with this, however. If the IFF broadcasts a signal that human technology can transmit, then why go to all the trouble of capturing the IFF. They could have simply hidden a receiver amongst all the warning beacons around the Omega 4 relay and captured the signal when the Collector ship passed through.

[LorDC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
They could have simply hidden a receiver amongst all the warning beacons around the Omega 4 relay and captured the signal when the Collector ship passed through.

You obviously don't know anything about modern cryptography.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

By the way i noticed that almost all pro cerberus threads disappeared from 1 page of this forum and this thread remain as last "bastion" of timmy's supporters.... strange.

Because there doesn't need to be a dozen threads on this one topic?

Not so strange.

[Kaylord]

Most of my Shepards were paragon, stressing over the whole game that they do not work for Cerberus. Under stress, a direct order of TIM at the last possible moment, was ignored, but my Shepards really wondered afterwards if they had doomed galactic civilisation by destroying superior tech. After all, it was just one little Protean outpost which propelled development forward, and this was a fu***** whole space station.



The Shepards of mine which kept the base were confronted with a lot of doubts, of course, too. Not necessarly about TIM. Cerberus, even with that base, is certainly not a military powerhouse like the alliance or the citadel fleet. But the unsuccesful research of the (half)dead Reapership still is in mind. But surely, Cerberus would adapt to the knowledge they got from that mis-attempt. If not... well, the Reapers just got strengthened instead of weakened. Imaginge hundreds of indoctrinated humans spreading in the galaxy...



So basically, the ending where you keep the base is a bit of a letdown. Because all comments concentrate on the possible abuse by TIM. Would he really use aliens to construct his own reaper? That abuse is void in face of the pending attack of the Reapers, and for the time after THAT war, nothing can really be anticipated. The real danger lies in the indoctrination potential of the base itself, IMO.

[PWENER]

Arijharn wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Also they seemed to make it bigger.
Reaper 1: Okay, here's the relay to our secret base
Reaper 2: Lets make it bigger and glow red!
Reaper 1: what? How would that help it be secret?
Reaper 2: it would be cool!
Reaper 1: whatever, it's your responsibility Harbinger -flies off-

Reaper 1: Mine's bigger than yours.
Reaper 2: No it isn't
Reaper 1: Yes it bloody well is, it's .3568km larger, measure it yourself
Reaper 2: ...Well, it's not how large it is, but how you use it.
Reaper 1: Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Reaper 2: *mumbles*

Reaper 2: Well... Harbinger put me in charge of finding a location for the Citadel. I bet no one EVER will find it and the secret to our only weakness within it.

Reaper 1: No one better find it or else...

Reaper 2: Or else what?

Reaper 1: We'll drop you in Heastrom's sun.

Reaper 2:

Reaper 3: Hey guys, some super hawt blue race with tentacle heads just found the Citadel in the Widow cluster. They only had to go through one relay sistem to reach it. Weird. 

Reaper 1:  *looks at Reaper 2*

Reaper 2: FLEE! FLEE!

Modifié par PWENER, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Greed1914]

Suron wrote...



it's nothing to do with paragon or renegade.

my paragon saw the wisdom of keeping the base...however destroyed it because the ONLY person in position to take it over is TIM..

it's more a do you trust cerberus decision instead of a paragon/renegade decision.

That was my thinking.  I saw the logic in keeping the base to increase the chances against the Reapers, but then TIM said something along the lines of, "Cerberus is humanity."  Defeating the Reapers with that tech would seem like a huge waste if it was later used to take over the galaxy.

[Dean_the_Young]

The galaxy could oppose the arrival of thousands of Reapers without any Reaper tech for study, but could not oppose a group of hundreds of individuals with far lower goals after thousands of Reapers have been turned into scrap and are ripe for study?

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
So you are arguing that the Reapers carry out the same plan over and over again with little or no variance?

 
Pretty much yeah

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Hmmm . . . that sounds like what NON-sentient machines do. Hardly an argument to convince me of their greater intelligence. In fact it makes the Reapers sound like little more than high-tech trash collector drones of some long dead civilization.

Are you familliar with the phrase, "If it aint broke don't fix it."  If a plan nets you a positive reaction every time, with little need for variation, why would you alter it?

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Let's assume for the sake of argument that I agree with you up to this point. The Reapers had not one, but two major red flag warnings that the situation had changed. The Citadel Relay failed to open, and Sovereign was destroyed. If their failsafe plan fails twice and they still consider it failsafe, then they meet my definition of stupid.

1st red flag: Sovereign sets out gathering information and minions to find out what the hell happened, why, and how to fix it.  This is the Reapers acknowleging that while it shouldn't the plan has failed and they're adapting to get things back on course.  In attempting this they are exposed throwing them further off course.  Finally Sovereign is destroyed throwing them even further off course.

2nd red flag: Harbinger steps in and uses the Collectors to lure Shepard to a place where he/she can be ambushed and killed.  This was successful and Harbinger begins building a new Reaper in the Milky Way Galaxy to try Sovereigns original plan again (manually activate the Citadel Relay).  For two years things are back on course, nobody seems to be preparing for the Reapers, Shepard's dead, and nobody's responding to the disappearing humans.  Then, against all odds, the organics find a way to bring Shepard back from the dead.

The Reapers are intelligent, they worked out plans that should and would have worked had it not been for the rise of unpredictable variables (mainly Shepard).  The Reapers are facing a completely new situation, they're being opposed before they even arrive and my point remains the events of Mass Effect are so improbable that it is not idiocy to overlook them when drafting the long-term plan.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Oh, and assuming that humanity is the billion year storm because we're just oh so much better than everyone else - that's arrogance.

That wasn't my point at all.  The predicament the Reapers find themselves in is so incredibly unlikely (being thwarted, exposed, and opposed), that it would be a ridiculous waste of resources to prepare for it's eventuality.  Hence the 1 billion year storm (1 in a billion chance).

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Would they be known though?  How much info would a human organization really have on ancient alien ship design?  Think of how much cars have changed in terms of design and consider that before humans came on stage the other races had been making spacecraft for millenia.  The problem with taking her silence to mean anything is that it can mean just that, anything.  For all she doesn't say, "All ships match known Asari, Salarian, etc." she also doesn't say, "Many of the vessels match no known species design."

The problem I have with them being old Asari or Salarian ships is the word ancient. In the context of this game, we're dealing with beings millions of years old, others extinct for 50,000 years.

 
No we're dealing with Joker and a human perspective of what's ancient.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Or who's to say in the 50,000 years since the Protheans other races didn't reach the Citadel before the Asari and simply destroyed themselves before they arrive.

An interesting possibility. However, a race that masters interstellar travel to the point where they're performing test runs into the O-4 relay would probably leave some traces to their existence. After all they wouldn't have had the galactic clean up crew sweeping all evidence of them away.

Unless Sovereign was busier durring those 50,000 years than we thought.  Or who knows what the Collectors did between species.