3478 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Everything and the kitchen sink? Really? A fleet? No. Backup? No. Recon mission? No.
It was called a suicide mission because hardly any preparations were taken.
If the Normandy tried to take the Citadel, I'm pretty sure that C-Sec could stop Shepard from doing it. They may take massive casualties, but I don't think Shepard and co could pull it off. But the Collectors failed. Not what I call high security.
[/quote]

Please explain how you can send a fleet, do recon, send backup without having that nifty IFF? Plenty of preparations were taken for the suicide mission. You built a team, got yourself a state of the art ship, upgraded your weapons. TIM provided EDI, intel, and the IFF. As for Shepard taking out the citadel. If that was the objective, Shepard would have suceeded. He destroyed an entire geth army at the citadel in the first game after all. Why is this possible? The same reason why he suceeded in the suicide mission. The plot demands success. Shep has plot armor therefore is destined to succeed no matter what.

[quote]
And you don't know for certain that the potential rewards outweigh the potential risks. That is your opinion. One I don't necessarily share.
[/quote]

Of course I know for certain. That base definitely has technology we haven't seen before and it should be studied. The worst case scenario is that a few dozen scientists get indoctrinated and turned to husks. By the time they get indoctrinated, I'm sure we'd have plenty of data.  Have a kill team ready and take out those husks and be done with it. Sounds callous, but I think risking trillions by not trying to get some intel on the reapers is more callous.

[quote]
Considering that destroying the (assumed) base was the original objective of the mission, it's interesting that you would call completing that objective "running in fear from the enemy". Perhaps you could explain that logic.
[/quote]

The logic is easy to understand. You see, when you first launched the mission, we had no idea that the base can be salvaged. EDI downloaded the schematics and TIM concluded that the base can be taken over by using a radiation bomb. Now we have a choice. Save the base, or proceed to destroy it. Saving the base has obvious benefits. People have posted various reasonings for destroying the base. Spiting TIM, morality ect ect. However, your reasoning for destroying the base is that it's too dangerous. It's a trap. We need to destroy it and take off.  That sounds awfully cowardly to me.


[quote]
And you're willing to treat your scientific community like front line troops that are easily sacrificed and replaced.
[/quote]
Reapers are going to wage total war. Everyone is going to be front line troops in this conflict. Might as well make use of them while there is still time. Scientists will have a hard time working when reapers are bombing them from orbit.


[quote]
Yes, the underlying principles of some technology the Protheans learned from the Reapers, just like the modern galactic civilizations. To label ALL Prothean tech as Reaper tech would be like calling all Asari/Turian/human technology Reaper tech if it uses eezo/mass effect cores. Prothean tech is not Reaper tech. It is Prothean technology based upon principles learned from Reaper tech devices. That's a pretty significant difference.
[/quote]

The important data that changed everything was data regarding mass effect. That's pure reaper tech.


[quote]
If I remember correctly, it is only the mass relays/Citadel that Sovereign claims to be left as developmental guides. I don't recall anything saying that pieces of Prothean tech were left untouched for that same purpose.
[/quote]

The reapers did a pretty good job in vacuuming up the protheans and civilizations before them and had centuries to cleanse them. It's pretty logical to assume leaving behind small data caches that tell us about element zero and point to the nearest mass relay  to earth (The very technology the reapers want us to use) wasn't accidental.


[quote]
I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that the base doesn't necessarily represent the best way for that to happen.
[/quote]

Of course it''s the best way for that to happen, because at this point, it's the only option available. You're betting other options to study reaper offensive and defensive capabilites, or get useful intel on them will appear in the future. It's a video game, and you'll probably be right. However, without metagamming, that assumption is no gurantee.

[quote]
So essentially you are arguing that because those scientists worked under adverse conditions we should ignore the fact that successful study of Reaper tech took them decades. Fine. What of the fact that Asari and Salarians have been studying mass relays and the Citadel for centuries to little or no avail? Past experience shows that the time scale required to study Reaper tech is simply too great to be of practical use in the current war.
[/quote]

Huh. Asari can build relays. That bartender matriach wanted the asari government to build new ones. They're just lazy or not interested. Kinda like the US government is regarding manned mars missions. We probably have the tech and know how to do it. Just not the money and will. I guess after the rachni wars, the council races are just overly cautious regarding expansion.


[quote]
No, I'm assuming the best and smartest scientists will be there. And considering how much larger this place is than the derelict Reaper and the increased urgency of the research I would expect the number of people involved to be substantially greater. Just how many Einstein level genius people do you think exist in the galaxy at any one time? How many can you afford to lose in a gamble?
[/quote]

When the stakes are victory or extinction, I'd bet all the Einstien's in the galaxy. Besides, you're still assuming you're going to send all your best and brightest to one location. Whats more likely to happen is that you send servey teams, bring take items off base and scientists study those items in other bases. I'm not sure what exactly will happen regarding studying the base. However, the point is it doesn't have to be exactly your way.



[quote]
Congratulations, that is the first convincing idea of a potentially useful tech gain that I've read on this thread. My concern would be that Reapers created from different base creatures have physiological differences that go beyond the Reaper's appearance. I wouldn't want to invest too much time developing a weapon that works perfectly against human Reapers (of which there are now presumably, none) but fails utterly against the sentient shrimp. If the derelict Reaper were still around, and testing was a possibility, I might feel differently.

So ultimately, we come back to the earlier point of "do the potential risks outweigh the potential benefits"?
I still feel that they do. I consider gains from the Base to be a long shot with a high potential for negative backlash.
But, for a renegade character who doesn't care how big the pile of innocents is as long as the mission gets accomplished, I can see it's a choice that has some merit.
[/quote]

Who knows how the reapers go down. Ultimately, I don't think it will matter if you save or destroy the base in stopping the reapers considering how ME2 handled the choices in ME1. It's just from other science fiction stories, the bigger and stronger the threat, the more tiny or innocuous the solution. War of the worlds; bacteria. Death Star;small xwing fighter. Emperor Palpatine; Darth Vader's love for his son. Zentradi in Robotech; music.

As for the difference between Paragon and Renegade.

Paragon will risk saving their family to save their dog too.
Renegade will sacrifice the dog to make sure their family is safe.


[quote]
No cutting and running for me

Cut & run, cut & run, you love that government propaganda, don't you.
[/quote]

If the shoe fits, wear it

Modifié par mosor, 23 septembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[brfritos]

Why do people destroy the Collector base?
Because they are the enemy.

When you are fighting a enemy you win a war by a series of factors and one of those is destroying your enemy's infra-structure.

On top of things, handling the base to Cerberus is very dangerous.
Why?
Because Cerberus is highly incompetent and a terrorist organization
Excepting Shepard's ressurrection, most other Cerberus projects didn't work at all or justified the costs behind them.

And giving powerfull resources to organizations that use terrorism tactics is a very dangerous attitude.
If you doubt me, look into human history. 

[mosor]

brfritos wrote...

Why do people destroy the Collector base?
Because they are the enemy.

When you are fighting a enemy you win a war by a series of factors and one of those is destroying your enemy's infra-structure.

Good intelligence has won more wars better than merely destroying enemy infrastructure. Imagine if the allies simply sank U-571, rather than capturing it and getting their hands on the enigma machine.

On top of things, handling the base to Cerberus is very dangerous.
Why?
Because Cerberus is highly incompetent and a terrorist organization
Excepting Shepard's ressurrection, most other Cerberus projects didn't work at all or justified the costs behind them.

If you think they're so incompetent, than why are you so afraid of them? You're also assuming that every project that went awry were total write offs. I bet plenty of useful information was obtained even on projects that had hitches.

And giving powerfull resources to organizations that use terrorism tactics is a very dangerous attitude.
If you doubt me, look into human history. 

There is no precident in human history. Personally, if it was a choice between extinction and working with the taliban, the IRA or the shining path, I'd rather take all the help I can get and  face the bigger threat and deal with them when  (if) the threat is defeated.  If you're fighting for your life on the battlefield and find a gun. It's stupid to complain that it's dirty.

[PWENER]

brfritos wrote...

Why do people destroy the Collector base?
Because they are the enemy.

When you are fighting a enemy you win a war by a series of factors and one of those is destroying your enemy's infra-structure.

On top of things, handling the base to Cerberus is very dangerous.
Why?
Because Cerberus is highly incompetent and a terrorist organization
Excepting Shepard's ressurrection, most other Cerberus projects didn't work at all or justified the costs behind them.

And giving powerfull resources to organizations that use terrorism tactics is a very dangerous attitude.
If you doubt me, look into human history. 

It was discussed that Cerberus is not terrorist. They do not use terror tactics. The definition of terror tactics is...


A terrorist is one who meets five criteria:

• Is a member of an association or individual not under the command of a recognized military force or nation/state
• deliberately targets
• a civilian population
• through physical violence and/or the psychological impact of violence
• so as to obtain by coercion what he/she could not obtain by persuasion.

All five elements must exist for an act to be defined as terrorism. Note that the civilian population need not be the target of the violence, but can instead be the targetted audience of violence. For example, releasing a videotape of a police officer's beheading qualifies as terrorism, whereas beheading a police officer without videotape and burying him does not.

Taken from the wikia page.

Cerberus only fits #1 & #2. Get educated before saying things that aren't true. They are referenced as terrorist so that we would see them as the bad guys. They aren't terrorist.

Back on topic...

Destroying the base without even knowing what's in it is the dumbest thing you can do so far in ME. Forget Cerberus. The Reapers are coming and we need all that we can get our hands on to fight them.

It cracks me up to see people saying we should develop our own technological advanced path instead of using Reaper tech. All technology in the universe is Reaper tech!

[UNAVAILABLE]

Sajuro wrote...
Also they seemed to make it bigger.
Reaper 1: Okay, here's the relay to our secret base
Reaper 2: Lets make it bigger and glow red!
Reaper 1: what? How would that help it be secret?
Reaper 2: it would be cool!
Reaper 1: whatever, it's your responsibility Harbinger -flies off-

LOL

I think the size difference is because of primary vs. secondary relays. The primary relays like the O-4 can go to one and only one location and are for really long jumps. The secondary relays are for shorter jumps and can connect to any other secondary in range.

As for the color...

Sovereign: Hey Harbinger, I've been talking with some of the others, and we don't want to seem insensitive to your alternative lifestyle choices, but that relay you're building is supposed to look like and blend in with the others.
Harbinger:  What's that you said handsome?

Sovereign: Uh . . . nevermind. I gotta go.

[RobotNixon]

Harbinger is a chick.

She nags, she ASSUMES CONTROL of everything,
and when she leaves your mind she takes half of the molecules that are holding you together.

Modifié par RobotNixon, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:47 .

[PWENER]

RobotNixon wrote...

Harbinger is a chick.

She nags, she ASSUMES CONTROL of everything,
and when she leaves your mind she takes half of the molecules that are holding you together.

Sounds like my ex. Just one more reason to kill'em all.

[Lunatic LK47]

Is a member of an association or individual not under the command of a recognized military force or nation/state

deliberately targets

a civilian population

Uh, yeah, civilian populations were targeted when detonating Element Zero over human colonies.

through physical violence and/or the psychological impact of violence

Veetor if we brought him in to Cerberus?

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 24 septembre 2010 - 12:00 .

[PWENER]

Eezo detonations? That actually helped humanity dummy.



Veetor? He wasn't tortured, just agressively interrogated.

[UNAVAILABLE]

[quote]mosor wrote...
Please explain how you can send a fleet, do recon, send backup without having that nifty IFF?
[/quote]

I think you misunderstood my point. My point is that against a tough enemy, you typically do those things if you expect to succeed. Shepard was able to skip all of those steps, and the enemy still failed to mount an impressive defense.

[quote]
Plenty of preparations were taken for the suicide mission. You built a team, got yourself a state of the art ship, upgraded your weapons. TIM provided EDI, intel, and the IFF.
[/quote]

One frigate against a base that size is still just that. One frigate, no matter how many bells and whistles you install. The Normandy didn't sneak up to the base, it was spotted by the laser orbs. Fortunately, the Reapers are operating on a shoestring budget and there was only a few. A tough opponent would have had enough to take down a fleet of cruisers.

[quote]
The plot demands success. Shep has plot armor therefore is destined to succeed no matter what.
[/quote]

In that case there is certainly no reason to take the risks of studying the Collector Base. Shepard can just take out the Reaper Armada in a duel.

[quote]
[quote]
And you don't know for certain that the potential rewards outweigh the potential risks. That is your opinion. One I don't necessarily share.
[/quote]

Of course I know for certain. That base definitely has technology we haven't seen before and it should be studied.
[/quote]

But you don't know if that tech can be harnessed in time to be useful in the current battle. You have no Reapers to conduct weapons tests upon, so even if you do develop something you won't be able to tell if it works until way too many lives depend on it. Oh, that's right, you gave Cerberus a Reaper factory, maybe you will have a Reaper to test weapons on after all.

[quote]
The worst case scenario is that a few dozen scientists get indoctrinated and turned to husks. 
[/quote]

If that's the worst case that you can imagine, then I don't think you've thought about it very much. For instance, how is the rest of the Reaper hoarde going to get from Darkspace into the galaxy? They're most likely not going to be coming through the Citadel relay. Do they have a backup? Could the Collector Base be related to that backup system? Of course I realize that in ME, there's no way they'd give you the option to destroy the base if it were that important of a plot element, but still. You could be refusing to destroy the best chance the Reapers have of getting out of darkspace.

[quote]
However, your reasoning for destroying the base is that it's too dangerous. It's a trap. We need to destroy it and take off.  That sounds awfully cowardly to me.
[/quote]

Considering that I as Shepard wouldn't be the person immediately at risk, how is it an act of cowardice? It's a decision not to place the lives of others at risk on a long shot at a potential tech upgrade. Especially when the lives under consideration have the greatest potential to tip the balance of the war, and they can be put to excellent use studying the other techs (ancient ship graveyard, defunct mass accelerator cannon) - without sending them to their deaths.

[quote]
[quote]
I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that the base doesn't necessarily represent the best way for that to happen.
[/quote]

Of course it''s the best way for that to happen, because at this point, it's the only option available. You're betting other options to study reaper offensive and defensive capabilites, or get useful intel on them will appear in the future.
[/quote]

Again, not true. See above.
[quote]
Huh. Asari can build relays. That bartender matriach wanted the asari government to build new ones. They're just lazy or not interested.
[/quote]
If I'm not mistaken the bartender wanted her people to begin studying the prospect of making new relays. She believes that the Asari have what it takes to accomplish the goal, not that they have the blueprints sitting in a patent office.

[quote]
Kinda like the US government is regarding manned mars missions. We probably have the tech and know how to do it. Just not the money and will.
[/quote]
Somewhat off topic but, my understanding is that we have the technology to do it, but we don't have a way to put enough radiation shielding on the ship. A solar flare would fry the crew, and there's a very good chance that one would occur before the journey could be completed. I'm sure Cerberus would send them anyway.
 
[quote]
When the stakes are victory or extinction, I'd bet all the Einstien's in the galaxy. Besides, you're still assuming you're going to send all your best and brightest to one location. Whats more likely to happen is that you send servey teams, bring take items off base and scientists study those items in other bases. I'm not sure what exactly will happen regarding studying the base. However, the point is it doesn't have to be exactly your way.
[/quote]

I have a couple of problems with assuming you can send survey teams and keep your scientists off site. First is the overwhelming complexity of the technology. If you're a scientist that wants to study the gyros and stabilization system of that base, how are you going to describe to your survey team what it is that you are looking for and want them to bring back? You've never seen anything like it and you're supposed to direct someone else to figure it out? Even if you can locate the necessary system/part/doohickey it may well take all of your scientific knowhow just to figure out how to remove it for study.
Second is that time is of the essence.  Consider the following process:

1. Scientists brief survey team as to what they need from the base.
2. Survey team goes to base.
3. Shepard goes to base to kill the husk remnants of the survey team.
4. Scientists brief survey team as to what they need from the base.
5. Survey team goes to base.
6. Survey team ambushed by Batarian pirates while returning from base. 
7. Scientists brief survey team as to what they need from the base.

Pardon me for thinking that the Reaper problem is too imminent a threat to waste time.

[quote]
Who knows how the reapers go down. Ultimately, I don't think it will matter if you save or destroy the base in stopping the reapers considering how ME2 handled the choices in ME1. It's just from other science fiction stories, the bigger and stronger the threat, the more tiny or innocuous the solution. War of the worlds; bacteria. Death Star;small xwing fighter. Emperor Palpatine; Darth Vader's love for his son. Zentradi in Robotech; music.
[/quote]

I'm hoping to find a way to overwrite the Reapers core operating system with Windows Vista. Then they can be destroyed when they become sluggish and non-responsive.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 24 septembre 2010 - 12:52 .

[FataliTensei]

To me it's stupid to keep the base, mainly because every single time anyone has ever messed around with Reaper tech, it backfires, big time



and the other main reason is because the only person who the game allows you to give the game to is the racist leader of a human supremacist terrorist group(alot of "ists" in there)



To me both of those reasons make destroying the base a very good idea

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
The problem I have with them being old Asari or Salarian ships is the word ancient. In the context of this game, we're dealing with beings millions of years old, others extinct for 50,000 years.

 
No we're dealing with Joker and a human perspective of what's ancient.

Yes, but Joker is a human whose experience includes dealing with (indirectly) million year old beings. You and I might call a few millenia ancient because that's about how far back our civilizations history is well documented (yes I realize there are some older than that, but you get the point) If our civilization had a documented history of 100,000 years, we may very well have a different perspective on what we consider ancient. I would expect Joker to have such a modified perspective in light of the time frames commonly referenced in ME.

An interesting possibility. However, a race that masters interstellar travel to the point where they're performing test runs into the O-4 relay would probably leave some traces to their existence. After all they wouldn't have had the galactic clean up crew sweeping all evidence of them away.

Unless Sovereign was busier durring those 50,000 years than we thought.  Or who knows what the Collectors did between species.

It appears the primary purpose of the Reapers cleanup is to erase traces of their own existence. If a race dies out and the Reapers are not responsible, then it seems there should be no evidence for the Reapers to clean up nor any reason for them to care. Impossible to tell though. Maybe the Reapers enjoy collecting corpses whether they made them or not.

[Sajuro]

PWENER wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Also they seemed to make it bigger.
Reaper 1: Okay, here's the relay to our secret base
Reaper 2: Lets make it bigger and glow red!
Reaper 1: what? How would that help it be secret?
Reaper 2: it would be cool!
Reaper 1: whatever, it's your responsibility Harbinger -flies off-

Reaper 1: Mine's bigger than yours.
Reaper 2: No it isn't
Reaper 1: Yes it bloody well is, it's .3568km larger, measure it yourself
Reaper 2: ...Well, it's not how large it is, but how you use it.
Reaper 1: Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Reaper 2: *mumbles*

Reaper 2: Well... Harbinger put me in charge of finding a location for the Citadel. I bet no one EVER will find it and the secret to our only weakness within it.

Reaper 1: No one better find it or else...

Reaper 2: Or else what?

Reaper 1: We'll drop you in Heastrom's sun.

Reaper 2:

Reaper 3: Hey guys, some super hawt blue race with tentacle heads just found the Citadel in the Widow cluster. They only had to go through one relay sistem to reach it. Weird. 

Reaper 1:  *looks at Reaper 2*

Reaper 2: FLEE! FLEE!

Reaper 1: Hey whatever happened to Bob?
Reaper 2: I don't know, maybe he got lost.
-somewhere in the Hawking Eta Cluster-
Bob: it hurts, it hurts so bad

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...
2nd red flag: Harbinger steps in and uses the Collectors to lure Shepard to a place where he/she can be ambushed and killed.  This was successful and Harbinger begins building a new Reaper in the Milky Way Galaxy to try Sovereigns original plan again (manually activate the Citadel Relay).  For two years things are back on course, nobody seems to be preparing for the Reapers, Shepard's dead, and nobody's responding to the disappearing humans.  Then, against all odds, the organics find a way to bring Shepard back from the dead.

The Reapers are intelligent, they worked out plans that should and would have worked had it not been for the rise of unpredictable variables (mainly Shepard).  The Reapers are facing a completely new situation, they're being opposed before they even arrive and my point remains the events of Mass Effect are so improbable that it is not idiocy to overlook them when drafting the long-term plan.

Ok, so Harbinger knows it is facing a completely new situation.
Harbinger knows that Shepard has returned from the dead against all odds.
Harbinger knows that Shepard is investigating the human disappearances.
Harbinger knows that Shepard's investigation will lead to the Collector Base.
Harbinger knows that the Omega 4 Relay is the main obstacle between Shepard and the Collector Base.
Harbinger knows that Shepard has played a large role in thwarting past Reaper plans against all odds. In fact is largely because of Shepard that the main plan had to be abandoned in the first place.
Shepard takes Harbinger by suprise by popping through the O-4 relay, despite the overwhelming foreknowledge it had that Shepard was coming.

Somehow, arrogance just doesn't adequately describe that for me. It's like Lancealot's attack on the castle in Monty Python's Holy Grail where the guards watch him charging from quarter of a mile away and just keep watching until he takes them by suprise.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 24 septembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Sajuro]

FataliTensei wrote...

To me it's stupid to keep the base, mainly because every single time anyone has ever messed around with Reaper tech, it backfires, big time

and the other main reason is because the only person who the game allows you to give the game to is the racist leader of a human supremacist terrorist group(alot of "ists" in there)

To me both of those reasons make destroying the base a very good idea

Actually I think Lair of the Shadowbroker disproved that TIM is a total racist, he probably is partially racist but he was open to some Asari Loving

[PWENER]

Let's see what hasn't backfired shall we?



1. Mass effect fields (and biotics)



2. Thanix



3. EDI



4. Normandy SR-2



5. Every weapon ever made with mass effect propelled bullets



I'll keep the base, save the galaxy and strive for humanity's dominance.

[Blastback]

I destroyed it because there is no way in heck that I would trust TIM with that kind of Tech. Plus, it was fun to watch his villianous breakdown.

[PWENER]

"Confidence born of ignorance"



You would strike down such power because of personal belief in someone? You fail. He'll only use it to make humanity the dominant race in the galaxy. is that so bad? I don't think so.

[Inverness Moon]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

mosor wrote...
Please explain how you can send a fleet, do recon, send backup without having that nifty IFF?

I think you misunderstood my point. My point is that against a tough enemy, you typically do those things if you expect to succeed. Shepard was able to skip all of those steps, and the enemy still failed to mount an impressive defense.

The enemy is beyond the Omega-4 relay, what do you expect them to do exactly?

One frigate against a base that size is still just that. One frigate, no matter how many bells and whistles you install. The Normandy didn't sneak up to the base, it was spotted by the laser orbs. Fortunately, the Reapers are operating on a shoestring budget and there was only a few. A tough opponent would have had enough to take down a fleet of cruisers.

A small strike team can often be much more effective than a whole army. That one frigate also had unique stealth systems that other ships wouldn't have had.

The laser orbs probably detected the ship by sight, which is the only weakness of the stealth system.

In that case there is certainly no reason to take the risks of studying the Collector Base. Shepard can just take out the Reaper Armada in a duel.

I think you missed the whole point of this discussion. It's about what you would do as a Shepard who isn't metagaming.

But you don't know if that tech can be harnessed in time to be useful in the current battle. You have no Reapers to conduct weapons tests upon, so even if you do develop something you won't be able to tell if it works until way too many lives depend on it. Oh, that's right, you gave Cerberus a Reaper factory, maybe you will have a Reaper to test weapons on after all.

This isn't supporting your argument. If we blow up the base we'll never know if the tech can be harnessed in time to be useful. If you preserve it, there is a chance.

If that's the worst case that you can imagine, then I don't think you've thought about it very much. For instance, how is the rest of the Reaper hoarde going to get from Darkspace into the galaxy? They're most likely not going to be coming through the Citadel relay. Do they have a backup? Could the Collector Base be related to that backup system? Of course I realize that in ME, there's no way they'd give you the option to destroy the base if it were that important of a plot element, but still. You could be refusing to destroy the best chance the Reapers have of getting out of darkspace.

The collector base is not a mass relay. Utilizing the mass effect is the only way to go faster than light. This means the reapers are either going to find another mass relay from dark space, or use their own FTL drives which are probably significantly faster than anything the rest of the galaxy has.

Your're just making unfounded speculations in order to support your argument.

Considering that I as Shepard wouldn't be the person immediately at risk, how is it an act of cowardice? It's a decision not to place the lives of others at risk on a long shot at a potential tech upgrade. Especially when the lives under consideration have the greatest potential to tip the balance of the war, and they can be put to excellent use studying the other techs (ancient ship graveyard, defunct mass accelerator cannon) - without sending them to their deaths.

It's cowardice because you're too afraid of the consequences to take the risks that could very well save the galaxy from extinction. Sometimes in life you have to take risks, get over it.

I highly doubt the ancient ship graveyard will be of much use. If their technology had made a difference, they wouldn't be extinct now. They probably also quickly learned that sending ships through the Omega 4 Relay was a bad idea, and latter advancements most likely won't even be reflected in anything that could be salvaged.

The defunct mass accelerator cannon isn't going to reveal anything as significant as the collector base would. If it was fired during one of the previous reaper invasions, then you can bet they destroyed anything that could be salvaged and used by another species. And besides that, it was just a very powerful mass accelerator. We could make one of those easily if we had something that could generate the amount of energy needed. Such would most likely be found in the collector base, considering that the collectors had directed energy weapons.

I think you're just grasping at straws.

[Nexus-Born]

I think I would blow up the base the main reasons being



1. Studying and using Reaper tech leads to Reaper, blinding the civilization to different solutions to the same problems. Example is the mass relays being the only means for galactic travel



2. Developing the tech that the enemy has already mastered and knows how to counter seems like a quick way to end up dead. The only real use for the Tech is to find its weakness and exploit it, but the Collectors are only parshally realated to the Reaper. So it seems to me that the gain would be to insignificant for the amount of resources and time it would take could be better used elsa were.



3. A prototype ship "Normandy 2" destroyed a collector ship that was easly several times its mass and using supposedly more advanced Reaper tech. So really just get the galactic races to pool their research and you could make ships that maby in groups take on a Reaper. Why would I want to study this collector ship then.



4. As for handing it over to Cerberus if I hadn't blown it up, they would be my first choice for organizations to develop it. All of galactic life is threatened and most don't even believe it. So the only organiztion who could squeeze every bit of useful inforation out of the collectors base is one that know the Reapers are coming and two aren't restricted by ethical concerns.

[PWENER]

Some people just come up with the same lame excuses over and over again. Come up with something else Paragons.



Lazy.....

[brfritos]

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

Why do people destroy the Collector base?
Because they are the enemy.

When you are fighting a enemy you win a war by a series of factors and one of those is destroying your enemy's infra-structure.

Good intelligence has won more wars better than merely destroying enemy infrastructure. Imagine if the allies simply sank U-571, rather than capturing it and getting their hands on the enigma machine.

Of course you forgot the part of the text "by a series of factors" to suit your needs, isn't?

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

On top of things, handling the base to Cerberus is very dangerous.
Why?
Because Cerberus is highly incompetent and a terrorist organization
Excepting Shepard's ressurrection, most other Cerberus projects didn't work at all or justified the costs behind them.

If you think they're so incompetent, than why are you so afraid of them? You're also assuming that every project that went awry were total write offs. I bet plenty of useful information was obtained even on projects that had hitches.

Like kidnaping kids for using in experiments with Biotics?
Yeah, Jack is the proof that this pays off very well.
And what about "Retribution", didn't they learned the lesson?

Very inteligent, isn't?

And please, don't give me that crap "it's a rogue facility"
So if soldiers and commanders imprisioned and torture people without evidence they are terrorists, the country wich they serve is not responsible for this?

Of course this is only a example, it never happenend.
Oh, wait...

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

And giving powerfull resources to organizations that use terrorism tactics is a very dangerous attitude.
If you doubt me, look into human history. 

There is no precident in human history. Personally, if it was a choice between extinction and working with the taliban, the IRA or the shining path, I'd rather take all the help I can get and  face the bigger threat and deal with them when  (if) the threat is defeated.  If you're fighting for your life on the battlefield and find a gun. It's stupid to complain that it's dirty.

WoW, this is a entire different subject and maybe it's my fault for assuming things.

Can you trust Cerberus? Honestly?
How do you know they don't use Reaper tech to first survive, then later exploit this technology to enslave other races?

In the final battle was demonstrated that Alliance and Turian technology is a match for Collector tech and to a extent to Reaper tech.

Modifié par brfritos, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:52 .

[brfritos]

PWENER wrote...

brfritos wrote...

Why do people destroy the Collector base?
Because they are the enemy.

When you are fighting a enemy you win a war by a series of factors and one of those is destroying your enemy's infra-structure.

On top of things, handling the base to Cerberus is very dangerous.
Why?
Because Cerberus is highly incompetent and a terrorist organization
Excepting Shepard's ressurrection, most other Cerberus projects didn't work at all or justified the costs behind them.

And giving powerfull resources to organizations that use terrorism tactics is a very dangerous attitude.
If you doubt me, look into human history. 

It was discussed that Cerberus is not terrorist. They do not use terror tactics. The definition of terror tactics is...


A terrorist is one who meets five criteria:

• Is a member of an association or individual not under the command of a recognized military force or nation/state
• deliberately targets
• a civilian population
• through physical violence and/or the psychological impact of violence
• so as to obtain by coercion what he/she could not obtain by persuasion.

All five elements must exist for an act to be defined as terrorism. Note that the civilian population need not be the target of the violence, but can instead be the targetted audience of violence. For example, releasing a videotape of a police officer's beheading qualifies as terrorism, whereas beheading a police officer without videotape and burying him does not.

Like Cerberus did on Horizon?

Not belonging to a recognized military institution, deliberating exposing a colony to a attack from the Collectors without any warning to the population, so to obtain data about the Collectors motives and reasons?

[Blastback]

PWENER wrote...

"Confidence born of ignorance"

You would strike down such power because of personal belief in someone? You fail. He'll only use it to make humanity the dominant race in the galaxy. is that so bad? I don't think so.

As someone who belives that all races should be equal, yeah, I think it's that bad.<_<

[Arijharn]

brfritos wrote...
Like Cerberus did on Horizon?
[*]
Not belonging to a recognized military institution, deliberating exposing a colony to a attack from the Collectors without any warning to the population, so to obtain data about the Collectors motives and reasons?

You would have prefered them to attack a target that they couldn't pinpoint? Are you utterly insane? Horizon may of been a bastard thing to do, but the alternative would be (far) worse. Because they let it known to the Alliance who reinforced the colony (even if said colony didn't wish for it) and insured that the Collectors would be there as well as Shephard then the Collectors only managed to abduct half the colony. As TIM says: "Half a colony is still better than an entire colony."

I hope that you never ever get into military intelligence without some serious looking at yourself. This isn't a bad decision other than perhaps Horizon drawing the unlucky lottery ticket, but there was no alternative.

EDIT: Because I didn't make it clear at all, I'm inclined to believe that if they didn't do the Horizon thing, and allowed the Collector's to attack at will any colony, then that would be more inline with a 'terrorist' attack than otherwise, because this way they atleast funnelled the enemy.

Modifié par Arijharn, 24 septembre 2010 - 09:25 .