3478 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Ok, so Harbinger knows it is facing a completely new situation.
Harbinger knows that Shepard has returned from the dead against all odds.
Harbinger knows that Shepard is investigating the human disappearances.
Harbinger knows that Shepard's investigation will lead to the Collector Base.
Harbinger knows that the Omega 4 Relay is the main obstacle between Shepard and the Collector Base.

And this is where we run into another 1 in a million occurrence.  The only way Shepard can cross the relay is with an IFF of which there are only 2.  One is on board a ship that cannot be found unless it wants to be and the other is on board a derelict ship that has remained undiscovered for millions of years.  And even if Harbinger did foresee Shepard getting to the derelict Reaper he would know the resistance he'd face and Shepard would have failed if not for Legion (another unpredictable variable).  Not to mention Shepard ever finding out about the IFF was because he possessed an advanced AI Harbinger didn't know about.

The Reapers are not all knowing, they can be caught off guard and I maintain it is not idiocy to not predict the highly unlikely events of Mass Effect.

[Dean_the_Young]

And then, of course, installing the IFF would have been the end of it all (losing not only the crew but the ship AND EDI as well) had, again, another unpredictable variable (a cripple escaping capture and releasing EDI who, as a matter of fact, could regain control of the ship) not occurred.

[mosor]

Nexus-Born wrote...

I think I would blow up the base the main reasons being

1. Studying and using Reaper tech leads to Reaper, blinding the civilization to different solutions to the same problems. Example is the mass relays being the only means for galactic travel

Do we have centuries, decades or even years to develop an alternative? No. You can't develop squat when extinct.

2. Developing the tech that the enemy has already mastered and knows how to counter seems like a quick way to end up dead. The only real use for the Tech is to find its weakness and exploit it, but the Collectors are only parshally realated to the Reaper. So it seems to me that the gain would be to insignificant for the amount of resources and time it would take could be better used elsa were.

What's your argument? Is the base full of reaper tech that is dangerous or is it full of collector tech that is insignificant to reaper tech? As for stufying reaper tech, if you don't study it, how to you develop your own counter measures. Your reasoning is we should develop a new sword, slaughter a few giant rats, and run off and kill some reapers. No need to study what the reapers are capable of. Our mighty sword kills giant rats! We'll take em out....CHARGE!

3. A prototype ship "Normandy 2" destroyed a collector ship that was easly several times its mass and using supposedly more advanced Reaper tech. So really just get the galactic races to pool their research and you could make ships that maby in groups take on a Reaper. Why would I want to study this collector ship then.

Unless you're using the Thanix cannon, which is reaper tech, the normandy almost gets destroyed fighting 1 collector ship, never mind a full blown reaper ship.

[mosor]

brfritos wrote...


Of course you forgot the part of the text "by a series of factors" to suit your needs, isn't?

No. You were the one who forgot to mention this to begin with because getting good intel on the enemy being critical to winning wars doesn't support your argument for destroying the base.

mosor wrote...


Like kidnaping kids for using in experiments with Biotics?
Yeah, Jack is the proof that this pays off very well.
And what about "Retribution", didn't they learned the lesson?

On the gand scheme of things, using children to experiment biotics with is insignificant when faced with the proespect of galactic extinction. Organizations do bad things. What a suprise. No organization in  history has clean hands. Get over it. As for retributuon. The only thing cerberus needed to do better was plug their information leaks better. Doing those experiments on grayson was the right call. It was the turians who let him out.

And please, don't give me that crap "it's a rogue facility"
So if soldiers and commanders imprisioned and torture people without evidence they are terrorists, the country wich they serve is not responsible for this?

By your defintion, every country past and present is a terrorist state for doing this.

brfritos wrote...


WoW, this is a entire different subject and maybe it's my fault for assuming things.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I thought my comment was quite relevant to your reply *shrugs*

Can you trust Cerberus? Honestly?
How do you know they don't use Reaper tech to first survive, then later exploit this technology to enslave other races?

Why is human dominance=slavery of everyone else? The most likely meaning is geopolitical dominance. That's the USA of today's world. It's not southern plantations. Regardless. Even if your version of dominance became true. Nothing last forever. Human dominance will one day end the pendulum will swing back. Extinction is permanent.

In the final battle was demonstrated that Alliance and Turian technology is a match for Collector tech and to a extent to Reaper tech.

If it's not worth studying, then why are you so worried about cerberus having it. What makes you think the only thing worth finding out at the collector base is technology? What about intelligence on the enemy for starters. Any info is better than no info.

Modifié par mosor, 24 septembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[Zan51]

One reason I destroyed the base is - so no other group could take it over and use it for their own purposes, and so the Collectors/Reapers cannot reclaim it somehow. I denied them the use of it, not Humanity.

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Ok, so Harbinger knows it is facing a completely new situation.
Harbinger knows that Shepard has returned from the dead against all odds.
Harbinger knows that Shepard is investigating the human disappearances.
Harbinger knows that Shepard's investigation will lead to the Collector Base.
Harbinger knows that the Omega 4 Relay is the main obstacle between Shepard and the Collector Base.

And this is where we run into another 1 in a million occurrence.  The only way Shepard can cross the relay is with an IFF of which there are only 2.  One is on board a ship that cannot be found unless it wants to be and the other is on board a derelict ship that has remained undiscovered for millions of years.  And even if Harbinger did foresee Shepard getting to the derelict Reaper he would know the resistance he'd face and Shepard would have failed if not for Legion (another unpredictable variable).  Not to mention Shepard ever finding out about the IFF was because he possessed an advanced AI Harbinger didn't know about.

The Reapers are not all knowing, they can be caught off guard and I maintain it is not idiocy to not predict the highly unlikely events of Mass Effect.

The Collector ship is brought to the Normandy by a signal sent by the Reaper IFF. The Collector ship then loses the Normandy, and the Normandy stops transmitting its location to the Collector ship, thus demonstrating that its virus defense has been overcome. Thus Harbinger knows that Shepard now has the key to pass the Omega 4 Relay at any time. Yet what is the defensive status of the base? The cruiser is docked, none of the entrances are covered by snipers, the husks haven't been deployed, and most of the enemies are hurrying to get into position ahead of you instead of dug in and waiting in ambush.

Also, I've been thinking more about your theory that the Reapers have never faced this kind of opposition before, having always won by suprise. My question then is "why are they big massive warships instead of stealthy super fast strike bombers?" My hypothesis is as follows. Sovereign claims that the Reapers are the pinnacle of evolution. What kind of evolutionary process must they have gone through to reach their current form? I think that, much like the Krogan, they became so powerful because they have faced insanely powerful enemies in the past. Just because the Reapers have always succeeded in the past is no reason to believe that they always succeed easily. They may have had to fight protracted wars against enemies that fought them to a standstill. This could explain why they have such awesome firepower, but go to great lengths to not need it.

I'm also unconvinced that Legion actually saved Shepard's life aboard the Reaper. I know it's in the dialogue, but really what did the cutscene show? Something like 2 husks sneaking up on Shepard (who of course has shields on) He probably saved Shepard from getting hit, but I think the other squadmates would have cut them down before they could kill Shepard - especially considering Shepard's general unkillable nature.

[UNAVAILABLE]

LorDC wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
They could have simply hidden a receiver amongst all the warning beacons around the Omega 4 relay and captured the signal when the Collector ship passed through.

You obviously don't know anything about modern cryptography.

Well, I won't argue against that. But I can think conceptually about how I would design an encrypted comm system. And it would work something like this:

1. Each ship would have a unique identifying code.
2. When the navigation/drive program/process/whatever-Reapers-have needs to activate the IFF it sends this unique code to the IFF which combines it with the Reaper equivalent of a date/time stamp and maybe some other potentially useful info (ships course, etc.) This data then gets run through the IFF encryption routine generating a unique signal that the relay can decrypt and acknowledge.

In such a system you are correct that a simple signal capture would not work because the signal would work only that one time. However, such a system would not allow you to simply strip the IFF from one ship and make it work in another. And my example is very simple with almost no security in place. I'm assuming that since the IFF had a virus installed on it, that security is something the Reapers were thinking about, and it at least occurred to them that someone might try and steal their IFF.

However, since the IFF does seem to be a plug-and-play device, and Cerberus is able to mass produce them after about 10 minutes of exhaustive research, I'm concluding that the IFF is a more simple device sending a simple static signal.

But as I freely admit, I know very little about encryption/cryptology so I could easily be missing something fundamental. If you have the time, please do share you knowledge.

[UNAVAILABLE]

[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
The enemy is beyond the Omega-4 relay, what do you expect them to do exactly?
[/quote]

Maybe act like they know Shepard is coming. Since Harbinger has been present pretty much every step of the way in Shepard's journey.

[quote]
A small strike team can often be much more effective than a whole army.[/quote]

Especially when the enemy acts like they don't know you're coming.

[quote]
That one frigate also had unique stealth systems that other ships wouldn't have had.
[/quote]

Oh, you mean like the stealth system that was engaged on the original Normandy when the Collector ship easily located it and cut it to shreds.

[quote]
The laser orbs probably detected the ship by sight, which is the only weakness of the stealth system.
[/quote]

Or the fact that Collectors can see right through it.

[quote]
[quote]
In that case there is certainly no reason to take the risks of studying the Collector Base. Shepard can just take out the Reaper Armada in a duel.[/quote]
I think you missed the whole point of this discussion. It's about what you would do as a Shepard who isn't metagaming.
[/quote]

And I think that you missed that I was responding to someone else's point - someone who had been metagaming in that point.

[quote]
[quote]
But you don't know if that tech can be harnessed in time to be useful in the current battle. You have no Reapers to conduct weapons tests upon, so even if you do develop something you won't be able to tell if it works until way too many lives depend on it. Oh, that's right, you gave Cerberus a Reaper factory, maybe you will have a Reaper to test weapons on after all.[/quote]
This isn't supporting your argument. If we blow up the base we'll never know if the tech can be harnessed in time to be useful. If you preserve it, there is a chance.
[/quote]
Again, I think you missed the earlier part of the conversation. I was specifically responding to a comment that it is factually obvious that the base tech is only chance to get the tech to win the war.

[quote]
The collector base is not a mass relay.
[/quote]

I never said it was. If it was they'd be here already.

[quote]
Your're just making unfounded speculations in order to support your argument.
[/quote]

The Reapers have specifically left tech for organic races before. Why? Because it helped the Reapers destroy said organics. You're going to the base for Reaper tech. I'm sure Harbinger will happily oblige you with some.

[quote]
It's cowardice because you're too afraid of the consequences to take the risks that could very well save the galaxy from extinction. Sometimes in life you have to take risks, get over it.
[/quote]

Again, it's not about the risk it's about the necessity of the risk.

[quote]
I highly doubt the ancient ship graveyard will be of much use. If their technology had made a difference, they wouldn't be extinct now. They probably also quickly learned that sending ships through the Omega 4 Relay was a bad idea, and latter advancements most likely won't even be reflected in anything that could be salvaged.
[/quote]

That ignores the idea that any of the races may have had awesome weaponry but were taken by suprise. Also ignores the possibility that technologies from various ships could be combined to create an advantage that no one of them had. Also, Shepard just went through on the Normandy, one of, if not the most advanced ship around, and it went through on a potential suicide mission. Who knows how old this base is or how many times servants of the Reapers have attacked from here, causing past civilizations to send their most advanced warships to counter-attack (only theirs obviously ended in failure).

But you know what, you're right, we shouldn't even bother to look. Not when there's a base we could get our scientists indoctrinated on.

[quote]
The defunct mass accelerator cannon isn't going to reveal anything as significant as the collector base would. If it was fired during one of the previous reaper invasions, then you can bet they destroyed anything that could be salvaged and used by another species.
[/quote]

There was obviously enough of it left that Cerberus was able to use it to plot the flight plan of its target. So we have already used it to obtain the IFF, thus proving your theory about unsalvageable total destruction, incorrect.

[quote]
And besides that, it was just a very powerful mass accelerator. We could make one of those easily if we had something that could generate the amount of energy needed. Such would most likely be found in the collector base, considering that the collectors had directed energy weapons.
[/quote]

The Collectors did not have directed energy weapons on the base (if they did, why didn't they use them), so why would the power system for one be there?

[quote]
I think you're just grasping at straws.[/quote]

Then don't respond.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 25 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[A Furry Peach]

Because TiM can't be trusted?

Almost everything he has done fails, look at Retribution

[Inverness Moon]

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Maybe act like they know Shepard is coming. Since Harbinger has been present pretty much every step of the way in Shepard's journey.[/quote]You're assuming Harbinger thinks Shepard can get through the relay. There are only a handful of IFFs in the galaxy that could be used.

[quote]
That one frigate also had unique stealth systems that other ships wouldn't have had.
[/quote]

Oh, you mean like the stealth system that was engaged on the original Normandy when the Collector ship easily located it and cut it to shreds.[/quote]Yes. We don't know how they detected the Normandy. It could have been something unique, or a laser targeting system of some sort. I think they could detect the mass effect core somehow. Either way, until we're certain how they detected the Normandy SR1, we can't be certain about the effectiveness of the stealth drive.

There is also the fact that a single frigate is faster and more maneuverable than a cruiser or a fleet of them. Being able to dart around a debris field for cover is a significant advantage unless you're up against the Death Star or something.

[quote]

The Reapers have specifically left tech for organic races before. Why? Because it helped the Reapers destroy said organics. You're going to the base for Reaper tech. I'm sure Harbinger will happily oblige you with some.[/quote]Are you suggesting that the collectors went through the trouble of abducting all those humans to attract Shepard's (who was dead at the time) attention. Then they hid the base behind a relay that requires a booby-trapped IFF that only exists in 5 places in the galaxy at most. Then, finally, they allowed the human-reaper they were building be destroyed just to trap Shepard. Really?

Now even if you're suggesting the base is a trap somehow, just in case, even if letting Shepard get that far wasn't deliberate, that still sounds silly. I'd be surprised if Harbinger thought anyone could get that far.
[quote]
Again, it's not about the risk it's about the necessity of the risk.[/quote]In which case you get to choose between saving a base that could be extremely dangerous and/or extremely fruitful in yielding technology and/or intelligence that could make defeating the reapers much easier.

Or you could just blow it up and hope something else comes along down the line.

The choice is quite obvious to me.
[quote]

That ignores the idea that any of the races may have had awesome weaponry but were taken by suprise. Also ignores the possibility that technologies from various ships could be combined to create an advantage that no one of them had. Also, Shepard just went through on the Normandy, one of, if not the most advanced ship around, and it went through on a potential suicide mission. Who knows how old this base is or how many times servants of the Reapers have attacked from here, causing past civilizations to send their most advanced warships to counter-attack (only theirs obviously ended in failure).

But you know what, you're right, we shouldn't even bother to look. Not when there's a base we could get our scientists indoctrinated on.[/quote]You have a good point there with that first paragraph. The base is still the better option. Your suggestion that the base is capable of indoctrinating is not supported by the evidence.

[quote]
There was obviously enough of it left that Cerberus was able to use it to plot the flight plan of its target. So we have already used it to obtain the IFF, thus proving your theory about unsalvageable total destruction, incorrect.[/quote]You're suggesting we can't plot the flight path by observing the impact rift on Klendagon? Additionally, "enough of it left that Cerberus was able to use it to plot the flight plan of its target," doesn't really mean anything because you don't know what would be necessary for them to be able to recreate the flight path.
[quote]
The Collectors did not have directed energy weapons on the base (if they did, why didn't they use them), so why would the power system for one be there?[/quote]The base has a dock for the collector ship. Why would they use a ship they can't repair? If they can repair it, then the schematics will be there somewhere.

[Merlin 47]

Blastback wrote...

PWENER wrote...

"Confidence born of ignorance"

You would strike down such power because of personal belief in someone? You fail. He'll only use it to make humanity the dominant race in the galaxy. is that so bad? I don't think so.

As someone who belives that all races should be equal, yeah, I think it's that bad.<_<

Meh....you're not going to convince him Blastback.  Just ignore him; we're two sides of a coin - he likes human dominiance and "doesn't play nice with others if they're aliens" while those of us that wish to actually work towards having all races be equal, there's no point in trying to have a conversation with him.

But, he is entitled to his opinion, just like we are about ours.  We're going to blow the base up, because of our stance on the Galaxy as a whole and how we don't trust an organization like Cerberus, which represents the worst of humankind.  To be honest, if I was one of those alien races, I'd certainly feel the same way.  Which is why I agree with you that Shepard is an icon, showing that not all of humanity is like Cerberus.

Modifié par Merlin 47, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Merlin 47 wrote...

Blastback wrote...

PWENER wrote...

"Confidence born of ignorance"

You would strike down such power because of personal belief in someone? You fail. He'll only use it to make humanity the dominant race in the galaxy. is that so bad? I don't think so.

As someone who belives that all races should be equal, yeah, I think it's that bad.<_<

Meh....you're not going to convince him Blastback.  Just ignore him; we're two sides of a coin - he likes human dominiance and "doesn't play nice with others if they're aliens" while those of us that wish to actually work towards having all races be equal, there's no point in trying to have a conversation with him.

Like I said, just ignore him.

So, when do you intend to overthrow the Council? 

Granted, I'm not part of your camp, but I am a fellow traveler against the galactic exclusion racket. When do we start?

[Merlin 47]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Merlin 47 wrote...

Blastback wrote...

PWENER wrote...

"Confidence born of ignorance"

You would strike down such power because of personal belief in someone? You fail. He'll only use it to make humanity the dominant race in the galaxy. is that so bad? I don't think so.

As someone who belives that all races should be equal, yeah, I think it's that bad.<_<

Meh....you're not going to convince him Blastback.  Just ignore him; we're two sides of a coin - he likes human dominiance and "doesn't play nice with others if they're aliens" while those of us that wish to actually work towards having all races be equal, there's no point in trying to have a conversation with him.

Like I said, just ignore him.

So, when do you intend to overthrow the Council? 

Granted, I'm not part of your camp, but I am a fellow traveler against the galactic exclusion racket. When do we start?

I don't; if anything, I plan on taking down Cerberus the first opportunity I get.  Hell, if given the option in ME 3, I'd gladly hand over TIM to both the Alliance and the Council.

Modifié par Merlin 47, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:11 .

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
The Collector ship is brought to the Normandy by a signal sent by the Reaper IFF. The Collector ship then loses the Normandy, and the Normandy stops transmitting its location to the Collector ship, thus demonstrating that its virus defense has been overcome. Thus Harbinger knows that Shepard now has the key to pass the Omega 4 Relay at any time. Yet what is the defensive status of the base? The cruiser is docked, none of the entrances are covered by snipers, the husks haven't been deployed, and most of the enemies are hurrying to get into position ahead of you instead of dug in and waiting in ambush.

A fair point.  However by the time Harbinger finds out that Shepard can indeed come through the Omega 4 relay there isn't a huge opportunity to construct new defenses.  What defenses they had were operational (Occulli and Collector Ship) and if they seem inadequate I remind you that no one was ever supposed to get that far.

As for not being prepared when Shepard arrives in base remember we're told the Collectors are blind (temporarily) and with nothing to go on but a large explosion and no Normandy it's not unreasonable for Harbinger to assume the ship was destroyed.  This may be him underestimating Shepard but again that's born of arrogance.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Also, I've been thinking more about your theory that the Reapers have never faced this kind of opposition before, having always won by suprise. My question then is "why are they big massive warships instead of stealthy super fast strike bombers?"

 
Because they would face resistance every cycle just nothing pre-emptive or co-ordinated.  I'm sure when the Reapers showed up they had to engage whatever forces the Protheans had defending the Citadel, and similarly every colony they attacked with a defense force.  That kind of resistance they're prepared for not people thwarting their plans before they even arrive.

This is however entirely speculation on my part so take it with a grain of salt.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I'm also unconvinced that Legion actually saved Shepard's life aboard the Reaper. I know it's in the dialogue, but really what did the cutscene show? Something like 2 husks sneaking up on Shepard (who of course has shields on) He probably saved Shepard from getting hit, but I think the other squadmates would have cut them down before they could kill Shepard - especially considering Shepard's general unkillable nature.

I was actually referring to Legion lowering the shield keeping you from the Mass Effect Core of the Reaper maintaining the kinetic barrier that was keeping you from leaving.  Without Legion Shepard's mission would have ended right there.

[Dean_the_Young]

But you said you hate groups that advocate the domination of other races by a select few: Cerberus seeks the dominance of its race, and the Council acts to insure the dominance of its three (then four) races. How can you not also find the Council a mote in the galactic eye?

[UNAVAILABLE]

Inverness Moon wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Maybe act like they know Shepard is coming. Since Harbinger has been present pretty much every step of the way in Shepard's journey.

You're assuming Harbinger thinks Shepard can get through the relay. There are only a handful of IFFs in the galaxy that could be used.

You're right. And one of those IFFs sent a message to the Collector ship from on board the Normandy. The Collector ship tried to take the Normandy and failed. The Normandy escaped and stopped broadcasting its position (evidence that the virus had been overcome). So Harbinger absolutely knows that Shepard has the ability to breach the relay. Admittedly, by this point Harbinger has limited time to ready defenses. Adding new cruisers or laser eye orbs is probably not possible (unless you're playing a hard core renegade and drag your feet beforing hitting the O4 relay). However, significant improvements could still be made. The cruiser could be actively deployed ready to fire on anything as soon as it drops out of FTL. But no, it's parked. On the base itself, the husks could already be deployed, snipers could be covering every doorway. Mines and traps could be set. The floating elevator platform thingies could be disabled, or at least password protected. Instead, you see Collectors scrambling to get into position as though they only just got the memo.

There is also the fact that a single frigate is faster and more maneuverable than a cruiser or a fleet of them. Being able to dart around a debris field for cover is a significant advantage unless you're up against the Death Star or something.

That's an interesting point. I hadn't thought about the debris field from the perspective of "a line of defense".

Are you suggesting that the collectors went through the trouble of abducting all those humans to attract Shepard's (who was dead at the time) attention. Then they hid the base behind a relay that requires a booby-trapped IFF that only exists in 5 places in the galaxy at most. Then, finally, they allowed the human-reaper they were building be destroyed just to trap Shepard. Really?

I'm suggesting that Harbinger is capable of uploading "helpful tech data" to the base computers before he disconnects. Analyzing said "helpful tech data" will reveal what appears to be weapon schematics, communication decryption software, or other helpful anti-Reaper technologies. The underlying principles are too complicated for anyone to understand, but the schematics are complete enough, that with a lot of hard work, these devices can be created. The mind boggles with the number of traps that the Reapers could design into such things.

Scientist 1: Alright we finally built the energy cannon from the plans we got from the Collector Base.
Scientist 2: I'm telling you, we don't know if it's a weapon, it could be anything.
Scientist 1: I'm tired of your unsubstantiated trap theories. I'm going to fire this thing. It could be a laser, or a particle beam.
(The machine hums, an energy field forms around it and tens of thousands of Reapers come screaming through.
Scientist 2: Nope, it's a mass relay. Way to doom the galaxy a-hole.
Scientist 1: Don't get mad at me because you didn't buy Reaper insurance. Cerberus told us the risks.
Scientist 2: That's NOT the point! Don't you see what you've done?!?
Scientist 1: Yes, I've unlocked the secrets of mass relay technology for humanity. The greatest discovery since fire. The gains clearly outweigh any trivial consequences. Someday you're going to have to learn, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, my friend.
Scientist 2 (To the Collector stuffing him in a pod): Is there any way you could put my dissolved DNA near a window?

Your suggestion that the base is capable of indoctrinating is not supported by the evidence.

I don't know for sure that it does, but there are compelling reasons to believe that it does.

First - it is a Reaper factory. Reapers indoctrinate. Certainly the technology necessary for indoctrination is on board even if its not assembled and active.

Second - husks are present. I know husks can be brought in from other places, but it is just another reason to suspect that indoctrination might be present.

Third - Harbinger is controlling the Collector general directly through the base. This may not be indoctrination per se, but any technology that allows Reapers to control organics should be handled with extreme caution.

There was obviously enough of it left that Cerberus was able to use it to plot the flight plan of its target. So we have already used it to obtain the IFF, thus proving your theory about unsalvageable total destruction, incorrect.

You're suggesting we can't plot the flight path by observing the impact rift on Klendagon? Additionally, "enough of it left that Cerberus was able to use it to plot the flight plan of its target," doesn't really mean anything because you don't know what would be necessary for them to be able to recreate the flight path.

I am indeed suggesting that. This battle didn't take place at close range where forensic sciences can help you determine which direction a projectile came from. We're talking about interplanetary if not interstellar distances. The galaxy is not a static place. All celestial bodies from stars to planets to galaxies are moving through space at tremendous speed and changing their position with relation to each other.  After a million plus years, I would say the chance of finding that Reaper based on a crater, without some computer data from the weapon would be very close to zero.

If they can repair it, then the schematics will be there somewhere.

I'm not sure that the schematics would even be helpful. The construction methods are so alien that no factory is likely to have machinery that can replicate them. You might be able to analyze it for structural weaknesses, but Shepard already discovered that shooting them works pretty well.

[Merlin 47]

I never said that they weren't though, either. The human race as a whole will still continue to appear like Cerberus in a way. It's not the best analogy, but it's like a choice between the lesser of two evils - I'd rather be in a Universe that is populated by a Council rather than be in charge and have everyone hate us for the reason why we're in charge.

But again, it merely boils down to everyone's play style. I understand what you're trying to say, Dean. And I thank you for actually engaging in a conversation, rather than just saying that "you're ignorant for not going with Cerberus".

Is Cerberus all bad? Probably not, no; they helped Liara bring Shepard back (although we all know the reason why), but still, I plan on stopping the Reapers as how I best see fit. I will say this - if there was a way to perhaps utilize the Collector base for yourself and not give it to TIM, I'd certainly consider taking that option.

Modifié par Merlin 47, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:47 .

[Merlin 47]

I'm guessing you've been missing what I've been saying. I SUPPORT blowing the Collector base. I don't want TIM to have it. What I was doing was merely being respectful to a different opinion without causing a flame war.

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...
A fair point.  However by the time Harbinger finds out that Shepard can indeed come through the Omega 4 relay there isn't a huge opportunity to construct new defenses.  What defenses they had were operational (Occulli and Collector Ship) and if they seem inadequate I remind you that no one was ever supposed to get that far.

I agree that there isn't time to gather new forces unless Shepard doesn't immediately come through the relay. However, Harbinger certainly has time to deploy the forces he has a lot more effectively.

As for not being prepared when Shepard arrives in base remember we're told the Collectors are blind (temporarily) and with nothing to go on but a large explosion and no Normandy it's not unreasonable for Harbinger to assume the ship was destroyed.  This may be him underestimating Shepard but again that's born of arrogance.

Harbinger is turning out to be a serial underestimater. At a certain point this continued arrogance seems to counter the idea that this is a machine with thousands of years of combat experience.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I was actually referring to Legion lowering the shield keeping you from the Mass Effect Core of the Reaper maintaining the kinetic barrier that was keeping you from leaving.  Without Legion Shepard's mission would have ended right there.

Hmm. I didn't catch that that is what Legion did. I thought he was just grabbing the virus discussed in his loyalty mission.

[brfritos]

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

Of course you forgot the part of the text "by a series of factors" to suit your needs, isn't?

No. You were the one who forgot to mention this to begin with because getting good intel on the enemy being critical to winning wars doesn't support your argument for destroying the base.

Hey, it was writen very clear in my text, if you didn't pay attention what can I do?

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

Like kidnaping kids for using in experiments with Biotics?
Yeah, Jack is the proof that this pays off very well.
And what about "Retribution", didn't they learned the lesson?

On the gand scheme of things, using children to experiment biotics with is insignificant when faced with the proespect of galactic extinction. Organizations do bad things. What a suprise. No organization in  history has clean hands. Get over it. As for retributuon. The only thing cerberus needed to do better was plug their information leaks better. Doing those experiments on grayson was the right call. It was the turians who let him out.

For what it's showed, there's absolutelly NOTHING about the experiments related to "we are in verge of extinction".
Also, the experiments were conducted way before the Reaper menace.
Then why they did it?

The problem was not experimenting, but kidnapping Greyson to do it, I have no problem at all if he volunteered. And Reaper technology can't be mastered without indocrinating the subject.
Wich causes the subject to...voilá, work for the Reapers.

And Cerberus didn't learned this after all?
Amazing intelligent!

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

And please, don't give me that crap "it's a rogue facility"
So if soldiers and commanders imprisioned and torture people without evidence they are terrorists, the country wich they serve is not responsible for this?

By your defintion, every country past and present is a terrorist state for doing this.

This is not what I said, isn't? You are doing A LOT of assumptions in your texts or lacking text comprehension, who knows?

So if a government use questionable tatics and are discovered using them, they aren't responsible for those?
And when they are criticized for, the people who does are "unjust"?

Also, not every government use torture trying to obtain good intel.

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

Can you trust Cerberus? Honestly?
How do you know they don't use Reaper tech to first survive, then later exploit this technology to enslave other races?

Why is human dominance=slavery of everyone else? The most likely meaning is geopolitical dominance. That's the USA of today's world. It's not southern plantations. Regardless. Even if your version of dominance became true. Nothing last forever. Human dominance will one day end the pendulum will swing back. Extinction is permanent.

No, human dominance is not slavering everyone, but cerberus think so.
Since you cited USA, they use their political and economical power to obtain advantage over other nations.
But they don't kidnap germans, chinese, britains and torture them to gain economical advantage.
They don't start a war with every nation on the planet to gain political power.

If you believe in your "extinction is permanent", why not give nuclear weapons to everyone?
I think it's more fast than arguing.

mosor wrote...

brfritos wrote...

In the final battle was demonstrated that Alliance and Turian technology is a match for Collector tech and to a extent to Reaper tech.

If it's not worth studying, then why are you so worried about cerberus having it. What makes you think the only thing worth finding out at the collector base is technology? What about intelligence on the enemy for starters. Any info is better than no info.

I have nothing against studying info about the enemy, but I have everything about using it to personal gain.
Do you really believe that Cerberus wants this for advanced of humanity?
Or they only want for advancement of Cerberus?

[Arijharn]

brfritos wrote...
Like kidnaping kids for using in experiments with Biotics?
Yeah, Jack is the proof that this pays off very well.
And what about "Retribution", didn't they learned the lesson?

While I don't agree with their methods in regards to this, I think seeing a potential flaw in the defense of your species (I would wager that Cerberus treats protecting humanity as seriously, if not more, than our nations protecting their national interests) to be on the whole more 'wrong' than anything they did during Pragia.

Remember, they work of the basis that everything they do, even if abhorrent, will be justified in the future. Remember Dr. Gavin Archer says that 'if my actions spare a million mothers mourning a million sons, then I'll have no regrets.' 

The believe this to the core of their beings, because in the end they have too.

brfritos wrote...
For what it's showed, there's absolutelly NOTHING about the experiments related to "we are in verge of extinction".
Also, the experiments were conducted way before the Reaper menace.
Then why they did it?

Because Cerberus is about protecting humanity against all threats, perceived or not. Biotic's like Jack were made to help understand human biotic potential and to surpass it, capable of being deployed on the front lines.

Why is it stupid to assume that allies now will only ever be allies? Even Mordin published a secret report to the STG higher ups with a human threat analysis.

The Reapers are mentioned in this game because that's Cerberus' current focus, but that's not to assume that the Reapers are the only threat to Humanity. All it takes is one diplomatic incident and Humanity could be dragged into a war with the Batarian's or whatever.

brfritos wrote...
The problem was not experimenting, but kidnapping Greyson to do it, I have no problem at all if he volunteered. And Reaper technology can't be mastered without indocrinating the subject.
Wich causes the subject to...voilá, work for the Reapers.

And Cerberus didn't learned this after all?
Amazing intelligent!

Grayson was selected because he had intelligence on Cerberus that Cerberus would rather avoid getting out. Would you not work similarly if you worked for an intelligence service in that you'd rather not having your dirty laundry aired?

The simple truth is that Indoctrination is something that must be studied in some way for some defense to be mounted for it (I mean, presumably someone had to be shot before Kevlar was invented right?) and I can't think of anyone who would volunteer for that service. Would you?

Since Grayson became an enemy of Cerberus, I think killing two birds with one stone is quite sensible in all honesty. Brutally pragmatic actually.

brfritos wrote...
Also, not every government use torture trying to obtain good intel.

Two points:
1) Do you honestly believe that you can sort out all problems by sitting around a large table offering coffee and scones will solve problems? There is a limitation involved with doing things 'by the book' because the book is probably different for every species and every culture.
2) If a country is adverse to torture that's fine, they just offload it to a country that is less squeamish and subtly suggest them to get the intel at all costs. Why wouldn't they? They still get the data and they don't get their hands dirty either.

brfritos wrote...
No, human dominance is not slavering everyone, but cerberus think so.

How do you know? Or are you just presupposing?

brfritos wrote...
Since you cited USA, they use their political and economical power to obtain advantage over other nations.
But they don't kidnap germans, chinese, britains and torture them to gain economical advantage.

There may be some truth to this, but I doubt it's nearly as common as you seem to make out. What torturing has Cerberus done to gain 'economic' advantage?

brfritos wrote...
They don't start a war with every nation on the planet to gain political power.

What war has Cerberus started? I mean, other than with the Reapers. Cerberus infiltrates to further it's goals but infiltration != war.

brfritos wrote...
If you believe in your "extinction is permanent", why not give nuclear weapons to everyone?
I think it's more fast than arguing.

Because no one wants a scorched earth response?
Besides, thinking about it, what's stopping Shephard (other than perhaps plot points in ME3) to surreptiously leak weapons designs gained from the Collector base to the other species on the basis of: "A man can only ever carry two guns"?

mosor wrote...
I have nothing against studying info about the enemy, but I have everything about using it to personal gain.
Do you really believe that Cerberus wants this for advanced of humanity?
Or they only want for advancement of Cerberus?

I don't speak for mosor of course, but why can't Cerberus wish to make something for humanity? I mean, that's their whole point, whether you agree with their motives or not.

Why would Cerberus risk public exposure? If we are to take EDI's word that there are only 150 agents and operatives spread amongst three cells, how on earth are they going to 'take over' Humanity?

I don't trust Cerberus necessarily that it would willingly share any developmental breakthroughs from the Collector Base with other species, but I fully expect those designs being pitched within the Alliance's military-industrial complex to the System's Alliance, because that's what the System's Alliance is; fleets!