3478 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

brfritos wrote...
I have nothing against studying info about the enemy, but I have everything about using it to personal gain.
Do you really believe that Cerberus wants this for advanced of humanity?
Or they only want for advancement of Cerberus?

If you listen to what TIMmy says he thinks that Cerberus is humanity and that only he is wise enough to understand the bigger plans he have for humanity and the galaxy. A very isolated man who lives in dreams of godlike glory is what that sounds like to me. This may explain why so many Cerberus projects fails. Is this who we want to give more power to mess up even more?

Also what would giving the base to Cerberus look like in the eyes of the three closely allied alien superpowers who are each on their own stronger than the Alliance and already dislike humanity (much thanks to Cerberus)? Well what do they know about Cerberus?
1. They often mess up.
2. They resurected Shepard for unknown reasons.
3. They infiltrate the Alliance.
4. Their methods are stealing, torture, terrorism, spying and assasinations (our real world history learns us that such primitive and clumsy methods are inefficent and often have the opposite effect than what was intended).
5. Their agenda is human dominance in the whole galaxy. Wich is a inefficent and primitive concept the council has abandoned long ago to share as much power as they can. It doesn't work perfectly but it is far better than the horribly failing empires that tried to take over our real world in the past. In any case they are comfortable with status quo and will strongly oppose anyone trying to change it (like that all human council that only managed to make things worse for humanity for example)

They could turn from seeing humanity as a annoying and suspicious new spiecies who still have good potential to see the earthlings as a threat. This is something humanity can not afford if they want to prosper. Considering the coming of the reapers this could mean extinction.

But perhaps Shepard don't like aliens and don't want to make nice to anyone who doesn't agree fully with him? Tough luck Shep, you just have to act like a adult and swallow your pride. To gain the strong allies he desperately need (Cerberus is too small, weak, isolated and have too many powerfull enemies) he have to be willing to compromise and share power even with people and aliens he doesn't like.

But hey, maybe the base contains the plans of a deathstar to rule the galaxy as one of those old stupid and inefficent empires based on fear and a kill all reapers button. In that case giving the base to Cerberus would have been the right decision even if I personaly think it have to include a bit too much wishfull thinking.

But the base could just as well contain nothing or start producing reapers again, remember that it's reaper tech and that we know basicaly nothing about it. Is that worth the risk? Well that is the big question we won't know the answer to untill the end of ME3.

Modifié par lovgreno, 25 septembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Asheer_Khan]

I wonder of any pro cerberus supporter could give me clear answer what valuable info Shepard and her team gathered on Horizon about Collectors plans worth sacrificing life of about 400 000 colonists?



The whole "testing of the clues" could be easy done without endangering life of all those colonists and Virmire survivor.



How?... simply, feed Collectors with this same info tim does BUT send warning to colonists to move outside colony in prepared early safe zone.



Of course some of them would remain anyway (ignorance for potential danger is very common even today and i saw many examples how people tend to disregard warnings until it's too late) so they would chose thier fate knowing pretty good that they could avoid this.



But apparently this was NOT the case... moreover i was really pissed off that there was not a single option to tell Joker or EDI to send general warning signal to Alliance about incoming attack on Horizon.



To quote tim's words from pre Horizon briefing.

SHEPARD: We should mobilizing the Alliance...

TiM : NO, I don't want them to get in OUR way...

So he deliberately put entire colony in jeopardy just to confirm what Shepard learn on Freedoms Progress?



Pretty short sighted view i must say... but what you can expect from someone who without blink on an cybernetic eye condone child kidnaping (in Jack's case - read SB dossier how cerberus "aquired" her).

By letting Shepard inside his organization timmy started very dangerous game which he lost ta the end when my Shepard end his dream to get free access to C-Base by blowing such in space dust.

[Asheer_Khan]

Horizon was a major strategic victory.

Strategic victory?... not quite... it was more tactical victory which lead us to Strategical victory in C-base (taking aside any choices about her fate).



Actually there was no guarantee after Horizon that Collectors won't return in major force to finish what they started since thier cover was blown up.



Until Horizon secrecy was thier best weapon but after Horizon everything could happened...

Actually until O-4 jump and learn truth about C-base there should be taken under consideration risk of Collectors general attack at every human colonies in one strike even aided by reapers (what if C-base was protected by one or two Reaper ships?).



Yes you are correct that after Horizon there was no new abductions but explanation for this fact could lead in many ways.... and some of them lead to timmy (conspiration theory that he engineered entire situation almost confirmed on Collector ship), Collectors regroup and preparation for major offensive... or just general inconsequence in core story (aka plot hole).



But seriously i wouldn't call Horizon strategic victory but more like derailing Collectors action for long in off to "pay them a visit"on thier own territory.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Horizon was a major strategic victory.

Strategic victory?... not quite... it was more tactical victory which lead us to Strategical victory in C-base (taking aside any choices about her fate).

Actually there was no guarantee after Horizon that Collectors won't return in major force to finish what they started since thier cover was blown up.

Nothing prevents them from returning, but then by then the Towers will be online and they'll take a bloody nose. Which, as we've seen, they really don't like.

Until Horizon secrecy was thier best weapon but after Horizon everything could happened...
Actually until O-4 jump and learn truth about C-base there should be taken under consideration risk of Collectors general attack at every human colonies in one strike even aided by reapers (what if C-base was protected by one or two Reaper ships?).

If there were more Reapers left in the galaxy, the Collectors wouldn't be trying to build one now in the first place. Those Reapers would have either assisted in an attack on the Citadel or launched their own, as was the presumed end-reason of building a Human Reaper in the first place.

Yes you are correct that after Horizon there was no new abductions but explanation for this fact could lead in many ways.... and some of them lead to timmy (conspiration theory that he engineered entire situation almost confirmed on Collector ship), Collectors regroup and preparation for major offensive... or just general inconsequence in core story (aka plot hole).

If it's explained in the plot without contradiction, it isn't a plot hole.

Yes, the Collectors were trying to regroup. Because they were hit at Horizon.

But seriously i wouldn't call Horizon strategic victory but more like derailing Collectors action for long in off to "pay them a visit"on thier own territory.

...that would be precisely what a strategic victory is. Something that changes the nature of the conflict, and forces the sides to change/alter their strategy to deal with the new situation.

Horizon was the equilibrium point in the Collector Conflict, the point at which the Collectors shifted from being on the general offensive (the pro-active, attacking force) to the defensive (reactive, focusing not on their higher intent but with dealing with Shepard). Horizon gave a number of advantages to Shepard and Cerberus's alliance:

-It confirmed the Collector's interests and how they prioritized targets, with emphasis on interest in Shepard and those close to him.
-It saved the colony, and with Alliance military witnesses could bring accurate intel to the Citadel and Alliance who wouldn't have accepted Cerberus's words. The Colony appearances are taken more seriously and more informed by the Alliance.
-It established an assessment of the Collector's tolerance for resistance: the towers, once installed, are a credible and valid deterrent for future Collector attacks, and provide a means for the Alliance and Cerberus to protect more colonies.
-It shifted the moment of the conflict from the Collector's favor. Before, Shepard had to react to the Collector's moves while looking for an opportunity. Afterwards, Shepard was on the offence and the Collectors were on the defense.
-It provided chances to seize and study collector technology, confirming their alliance with the Reapers (the advanced husks), samples of Collector weaponry and cybernetics (the Collector bodies and weapons, including the heavy weapon you can seize), and intel on Harbringer (the focus of interest in the Cerberus mission summary).

But, most importantly,
-Pushed the Collectors to resort to the Collector Ship trap, which provided mission-critical information about the Collectors and Omega Relay that could not have been gotten by conventional means.

[brfritos]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

So he deliberately put entire colony in jeopardy just to confirm what Shepard learn on Freedoms Progress?

Pretty short sighted view i must say... but what you can expect from someone who without blink on an cybernetic eye condone child kidnaping (in Jack's case - read SB dossier how cerberus "aquired" her).
By letting Shepard inside his organization timmy started very dangerous game which he lost ta the end when my Shepard end his dream to get free access to C-Base by blowing such in space dust.

Yeah, my biggest point against Horizon is this.

The Britains and Australians evacuated some of the local population in the Siege of Tobruk on the WWII and they knew the germans would eventually attack the city.

Why Cerberus didn't replaced some of the local population for soldiers?

There were a lot of options, but Cerberus didn't chose them because it didn't fit their personal agenda.

[Dean_the_Young]

brfritos wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

So he deliberately put entire colony in jeopardy just to confirm what Shepard learn on Freedoms Progress?

Pretty short sighted view i must say... but what you can expect from someone who without blink on an cybernetic eye condone child kidnaping (in Jack's case - read SB dossier how cerberus "aquired" her).
By letting Shepard inside his organization timmy started very dangerous game which he lost ta the end when my Shepard end his dream to get free access to C-Base by blowing such in space dust.

Yeah, my biggest point against Horizon is this.

The Britains and Australians evacuated some of the local population in the Siege of Tobruk on the WWII and they knew the germans would eventually attack the city.

Why Cerberus didn't replaced some of the local population for soldiers?

There were a lot of options, but Cerberus didn't chose them because it didn't fit their personal agenda.

Or because they couldn't. And possibly shouldn't. Cerberus doesn't exactly have a ground army, you know, and with the CG's information network (deemed on par with the Shadow Broker's),putting in teams could have spoiled the trap by tipping him off. TIM has a (justified, by Shadow Broker notes) fear of people spying inside the Normandy SR-2, which he privately built: any significant effort to move away parts of a colony population to be replaced with agents the locals would certainly not recognize would be much easier  to detect in comparison.

If balancing concerns is your idea of an agenda, then yes. TIM's agenda is hitting the Collectors at a trap of his creation at one colony, rather than tipping them off and letting them go hit another five or six colonies where he can't prepare.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

SHEPARD: We should mobilizing the Alliance...
TiM : NO, I don't want them to get in OUR way...

So he deliberately put entire colony in jeopardy just to confirm what Shepard learn on Freedoms Progress?

Pretty short sighted view i must say... but what you can expect from someone who without blink on an cybernetic eye condone child kidnaping (in Jack's case - read SB dossier how cerberus "aquired" her).
By letting Shepard inside his organization timmy started very dangerous game which he lost ta the end when my Shepard end his dream to get free access to C-Base by blowing such in space dust.

Where do you in the least get that the motivation, purpose, or intent of Horizon is to simply 'confirm' Freedom's Progress?

Certainly the end-mission notes, the mission purpose itself, and the Collector ship trap all point to that TIM's intent was far deeper and long-reaching than that.

[Asheer_Khan]

If timmy do have options to feed Collectors with info they seek why not keeping them supplied with absolute false informations but mean time evacuated civilians and replaced them with soldiers leading by Shepard?



Information could be powerful weapon if properly used, timmy known that Collectors have access to information network so he could arrange perfect trap for them without risking civilians life and achieve every single goal he needed there ( including testing Mordin's countermeasure for seeker stasis field because Collectors always deployed seekers before land) and maybe even board Collector vessel when he was on the ground (i think that was original Horizon plot).



History of Earth proven that greatest Generals are those who are able to achieved strategic victory with very few or none casualties (Patton, Rommel, Guderian...).... and history proves as well that it's not difficult to achieve success not looking at colateral damages.

[Asheer_Khan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

SHEPARD: We should mobilizing the Alliance...
TiM : NO, I don't want them to get in OUR way...

So he deliberately put entire colony in jeopardy just to confirm what Shepard learn on Freedoms Progress?

Pretty short sighted view i must say... but what you can expect from someone who without blink on an cybernetic eye condone child kidnaping (in Jack's case - read SB dossier how cerberus "aquired" her).
By letting Shepard inside his organization timmy started very dangerous game which he lost ta the end when my Shepard end his dream to get free access to C-Base by blowing such in space dust.

Where do you in the least get that the motivation, purpose, or intent of Horizon is to simply 'confirm' Freedom's Progress?

Certainly the end-mission notes, the mission purpose itself, and the Collector ship trap all point to that TIM's intent was far deeper and long-reaching than that.

*sigh...* WHAT else we learn on Horizon over what we disovered on F.P?

Fact that Harby can takeover Collector body and direct battle by himself?... this could be learn too without risking  colonists life.

Fact that Collectors still chase Shepard? - same as above.

Testing Mordin,s counter - seeker improvement? - could be done too without any unnecessary civilian casualties.

testing Collector bodies and weapons? - easy done after battle by simple searching for them after dealing with ship.
SO WHAT WAS SO CRITICAL in that mission to let them hijack almost 500 000 civilians?????

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

SHEPARD: We should mobilizing the Alliance...
TiM : NO, I don't want them to get in OUR way...

So he deliberately put entire colony in jeopardy just to confirm what Shepard learn on Freedoms Progress?

Pretty short sighted view i must say... but what you can expect from someone who without blink on an cybernetic eye condone child kidnaping (in Jack's case - read SB dossier how cerberus "aquired" her).
By letting Shepard inside his organization timmy started very dangerous game which he lost ta the end when my Shepard end his dream to get free access to C-Base by blowing such in space dust.

Where do you in the least get that the motivation, purpose, or intent of Horizon is to simply 'confirm' Freedom's Progress?

Certainly the end-mission notes, the mission purpose itself, and the Collector ship trap all point to that TIM's intent was far deeper and long-reaching than that.

*sigh...* WHAT else we learn on Horizon over what we disovered on F.P?

Fact that Harby can takeover Collector body and direct battle by himself?... this could be learn too without risking  colonists life.

Khan, we never fought Harbringer, or any collector, on Freedom's Progress.

Fact that Collectors still chase Shepard? - same as above.

Suspected. That they would choose an abduction target to get someone other than him? No. We didn't know that.

Testing Mordin,s counter - seeker improvement? - could be done too without any unnecessary civilian casualties.

How?

The seekers are only released to attack a human colony, in order to immobilize the humans. IE, they will only be used on a human colony in the first place. And unless you're already prepared to go to that colony, as in have some foreknowledge of where they will attack, the individual countermeasures can't be tried, because by the time you can get to the colony they already are gone.

testing Collector bodies and weapons? - easy done after battle by simple searching for them after dealing with ship.

It's been impossible to find the ship when it doesn't want to be found. The only time we do, ever, is in the final assault.

SO WHAT WAS SO CRITICAL in that mission to let them hijack almost 500 000 civilians?????

Being able to find and hit the Collectors, who are otherwise un-strikable.

There isn't some other battlefield. There isn't some place TIM or Shepard can go and say 'fight me, Collectors.' There isn't some place you know the Collectors will be, or can get them to be if they don't want to be there in whatever form they want.

TIM didn't cause a colony abduction attempt that wouldn't have otherwise happened. The Collectors were going to strike again. This is a fact. If left to their own devices, it would have been Freedom's Progress all over again: without knowing where to look in advance, you get there to late and the entire colony is gone, and no one benefits except the Collectors.

TIM took what the Collectors were already going to do,, de-randomized it, and therefore was able to mitigate it. Are you honestly going to have the gall to say that letting twice that number, or more, keep getting abducted with no timely response is better?

[nikki191]

personally i didnt want to get another email from cerberus saying they had lost contact with their research team on the collector base and would you go there and check it out

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

If timmy do have options to feed Collectors with info they seek why not keeping them supplied with absolute false informations but mean time evacuated civilians and replaced them with soldiers leading by Shepard?

Migraine coming on.

That only works if TIM is the Collectors sole conduit for information. For rather obvious reasons, this is not true.

TIM doesn't hand them information. TIM does not dictate the information they receive. TIM can only let information occur in places where they can find it, and let them do with it what they please. He can not prevent them from finding out other things on their own. He can try to hide it, but the more complicated it is, the easier it is to uncover. Not only moving a million people, but convincing a million or so people to move, and then shipping them somewhere else, then shipping in a million or so soldiers and having them all pretend that nothing has changed in the colony? Thinking that the Collectors couldn't detect that is positively moronic.

There aren't even a million people in Cerberus. By EDI's estimates, there aren't even a thousand Cerberus operatives. If you can't see the problems involved, look harder.

Information could be powerful weapon if properly used, timmy known that Collectors have access to information network so he could arrange perfect trap for them without risking civilians life and achieve every single goal he needed there ( including testing Mordin's countermeasure for seeker stasis field because Collectors always deployed seekers before land) and maybe even board Collector vessel when he was on the ground (i think that was original Horizon plot).

See above.

TIM isn't the Collector's only source of information. In fighting, this is similar to a tell: if you project what you intend to do too early, the other person can simply avoid it.

History of Earth proven that greatest Generals are those who are able to achieved strategic victory with very few or none casualties (Patton, Rommel, Guderian...).... and history proves as well that it's not difficult to achieve success not looking at colateral damages.

And as you've demonstrated repeatedly in the past and are doing so right now, you're a military ignoramous who doesn't know basic fundamentals of strategy, let alone the contextual differences.

A superior equiped force who can not be found conducting unpredictable first strikes against targets of their choice is not equivalent to a land war between a well equiped mobile force and a poorly equiped force which can be found.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 septembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[Asheer_Khan]

And as you've demonstrated repeatedly in the past and are doing so right now, you're a military ignoramous who doesn't know basic fundamentals of strategy, let alone the contextual differences.

OK  strategic genious... you want war you can have it...

But i warn you... you may have found in me much more dangerous enemy as you can imagine.

GOOD DAY.

And let me ask you HOW MANY colonies in terminus humans have to made placing there surveilance drones or any kind warning signal about incomming attack  such impossible task?

But... if you preffer schorched earth tactic then go ahead and kill as much humans and alies as you think is necessary, but my goal is to kick out reapers back to dark space one for all without selling my soul to Lucipher.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

And as you've demonstrated repeatedly in the past and are doing so right now, you're a military ignoramous who doesn't know basic fundamentals of strategy, let alone the contextual differences.

OK  strategic genious... you want war you can have it...

But i warn you... you may have found in me much more dangerous enemy as you can imagine.

GOOD DAY.

Storm away in a fit if you want. You and I and everyone else knows you'll crawl back here to post again soon enough.

And let me ask you HOW MANY colonies in terminus humans have to made placing there surveilance drones or any kind warning signal about incomming attack  such impossible task?

Your question isn't even clear. It's like you started with one sentence in mind, but switched mid-word to another. I'd ask you to clarify, but you did say you were leaving.

By Mass Effect's own codex, FTL can't be tracked or seen ahead of time: every raid is a first strike. There is no 'early warning', only post-appearance report. And given that the Collectors coordinate their strikes with attacks on all communication systems in-system, that would include satellites. The value of any surveilance satellite that somehow survived the Collector's methods would simply be to signal once the Collectors have already arrived... which is already done before that by the pre-arrival cut off of all colony communications.

The problem is not that the colonies can not be identified after they have been attacked: that's simple enough by virtue of the communication cutoff*. The problem is that without foreknowledge of where to go, the response is always too late in arriving. Horizon was no doubt in part selected because it exists in the same system as a mass relay, which enabled Shepard to make it in time. If it had been a colony, say, another half-days travel by conventional FTL travel, the Collectors would have been done and already left.




*Which itself can be anything from a sign of attack to maintanence problems: not all communication cutoffs are collector attacks.

But... if you preffer schorched earth tactic then go ahead and kill as much humans and alies as you think is necessary, but my goal is to kick out reapers back to dark space one for all without selling my soul to Lucipher.

You mean Lucifer.

If you're going to equate me with deals with Satan, Abaddon, the accuser of our bretheren, the father of all lies, the dragon, the man of sin, the old serpent, the prince of darkness, the tempter, the wicked one, and all his other names...

At least have the competence to get the religious slur right.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
A fair point.  However by the time Harbinger finds out that Shepard can indeed come through the Omega 4 relay there isn't a huge opportunity to construct new defenses.  What defenses they had were operational (Occulli and Collector Ship) and if they seem inadequate I remind you that no one was ever supposed to get that far.

I agree that there isn't time to gather new forces unless Shepard doesn't immediately come through the relay. However, Harbinger certainly has time to deploy the forces he has a lot more effectively.

How is it not effective he's set up a 3 tier defense.  First you've got the rubble, if you get past the rubble theirs the Occulli, and if you survive the Occulli you face the Collector ship.  Pikemen, archers, artillery.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

As for not being prepared when Shepard arrives in base remember we're told the Collectors are blind (temporarily) and with nothing to go on but a large explosion and no Normandy it's not unreasonable for Harbinger to assume the ship was destroyed.  This may be him underestimating Shepard but again that's born of arrogance.

Harbinger is turning out to be a serial underestimater. At a certain point this continued arrogance seems to counter the idea that this is a machine with thousands of years of combat experience.

The same could be said of Sauron, Lex Luthor, and practically every other evil mastermind every to grace fiction.  If the enemy were truly capable we couldn't beat them, that doesn't make for a fun game.

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

I was actually referring to Legion lowering the shield keeping you from the Mass Effect Core of the Reaper maintaining the kinetic barrier that was keeping you from leaving.  Without Legion Shepard's mission would have ended right there.

Hmm. I didn't catch that that is what Legion did. I thought he was just grabbing the virus discussed in his loyalty mission.

That's what I figured he was doing since he's working at the console, looks back at you, works at the console again, barrier goes down.  He may have also been downloading the virus but I choose to credit him with opening the door.

[mosor]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I wonder of any pro cerberus supporter could give me clear answer what valuable info Shepard and her team gathered on Horizon about Collectors plans worth sacrificing life of about 400 000 colonists?

Uhm, the info was you got to face harbringer. Notice how the collectors didn't strike at any more colonies once you fought them? Before horizon they attacked plenty of colonies, and a few even after your ressurection. They thought twice about doing that again. They were going to attack another colony anyway, at least they didn't take everyone on horizon. I thought the plot made that point crystal clear.

The whole "testing of the clues" could be easy done without endangering life of all those colonists and Virmire survivor.

As I said above. If a dog poops on the floor, you rub it's nose in it so it doesn't do it again. Giving the collectors a bloody nose while attacking a colony has the same effect. They won't do it with impunity any more. If you met the collectors on any other terms, they may still have attacked colonies. They thought they can't be tracked and seeker swarms will take care of resistance. Fighting on horizon shattered collector perceptions that these colonies can be taken easily. TIM is pure genius!

Modifié par mosor, 25 septembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[smudboy]

mosor wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I wonder of any pro cerberus supporter could give me clear answer what valuable info Shepard and her team gathered on Horizon about Collectors plans worth sacrificing life of about 400 000 colonists?

Uhm, the info was you got to face harbringer. Notice how the collectors didn't strike at any more colonies once you fought them? Before horizon they attacked plenty of colonies, and a few even after your ressurection. They thought twice about doing that again. They were going to attack another colony anyway, at least they didn't take everyone on horizon. I thought the plot made that point crystal clear.

The whole "testing of the clues" could be easy done without endangering life of all those colonists and Virmire survivor.

As I said above. If a dog poops on the floor, you rub it's nose in it so it doesn't do it again. Giving the collectors a bloody nose while attacking a colony has the same effect. They won't do it with impunity any more. If you met the collectors on any other terms, they may still have attacked colonies. They thought they can't be tracked and seeker swarms will take care of resistance. Fighting on horizon shattered collector perceptions that these colonies can be taken easily. TIM is pure genius!

I might not be aware, but isn't there an attack on Ferris Fields and New Canton, after the assault on Horizon?

I also don't understand Asheer_Khan's comment about Cerberus sacrificing lives.  Cerberus is the only group doing anything effective, no matter what Ash/Kaidan say.  "That's better than an entire colony."  If you can influence your enemy so you have the opportunity to attack them, you do it.

[chris025657]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

*sigh...* WHAT else we learn on Horizon over what we disovered on F.P?

Fact that Harby can takeover Collector body and direct battle by himself?... this could be learn too without risking  colonists life.

Fact that Collectors still chase Shepard? - same as above.

Testing Mordin,s counter - seeker improvement? - could be done too without any unnecessary civilian casualties.

testing Collector bodies and weapons? - easy done after battle by simple searching for them after dealing with ship.
SO WHAT WAS SO CRITICAL in that mission to let them hijack almost 500 000 civilians?????

This was not the motivation behind luring the Collectors to Horizon. Luring the Collectors to Horizon saved an entire random colony at the expense of half the colonists on Horizon. I think the Illusive man did the right thing here.

Let's say you have two choices:

Choice A: Do nothing. Without any means of predicting where the Collectors will strike there will be no way to stop them. As a result, an entire random colony will be abducted and eventually killed.

Choice B: Lure the Collectors to Horizon. By doing this you know with absolute certainty where they will attack and you now have an opportunity to stop them. By choosing this option, you will save half the colony. The Collectors will also no longer abduct unchallenged and will choose there targets more carefully in the future. 

I think that the writers often get renegade decisions wrong in the game by portraying it as being a jerk or doing the easy thing, but this is not what renegade should be about. Renegade is about doing whatever is necessary in the name of the greater good. This is the kind of motivation behind orchestrating the attack on Horizon, and I think it was the right decision that saved lives. 

Modifié par chris025657, 25 septembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Saving life by letting other life to be ended... nice tactic i must say...



Ferris Field and New Canton happened before Horizon (troubles with Ferris field beginning right after boarding Normandy at the beginning (those two crew members in crew quarter discus what could be a reason of sudden colony silence) and later, after F.P those talks switch to comments that colony have been attacked by Collectors.



No... i see that you are too blind to accept that there ALWAYS alternative routes leading to this same point but don't required so ridiculous high death count... but there is a catch... those routes required a little thing to enact and what is called a moral code... and what is sometimes VERY hard to do... since smoking gun and scorched earth route is lot easier...

[Xilizhra]

I think that the writers often get renegade decisions wrong in the game by portraying it as being a jerk or doing the easy thing, but this is not what renegade should be about. Renegade is about doing whatever is necessary in the name of the greater good. This is the kind of motivation behind orchestrating the attack on Horizon, and I think it was the right decision that saved lives.

But both sides have to do what's necessary, otherwise the game would only be able to be completed by Renegades.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Right now the Council is the only group "letting" people die. The Council would continue sending you after Geth until the Reapers return. They could very well be indoctrinated to deny the existence of Reapers.

[chris025657]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Saving life by letting other life to be ended... nice tactic i must say...

Ferris Field and New Canton happened before Horizon (troubles with Ferris field beginning right after boarding Normandy at the beginning (those two crew members in crew quarter discus what could be a reason of sudden colony silence) and later, after F.P those talks switch to comments that colony have been attacked by Collectors.

No... i see that you are too blind to accept that there ALWAYS alternative routes leading to this same point but don't required so ridiculous high death count... but there is a catch... those routes required a little thing to enact and what is called a moral code... and what is sometimes VERY hard to do... since smoking gun and scorched earth route is lot easier...

The ultimate goal behind luring the collectors to Horizon was to save lives and on the whole was successful. Renegade is not about choosing the easy way, it is about considering the greater good if sacrifices are necessary. This is not unethical or immoral when there are no better alternatives.

As for being blinded by alternatives, I didn't say that renegade choices were always the best: I usually play as overwhelmingly paragon for this reason. But anyway, I guess I should expand choice B in my example to not choosing Horizon. If the attack on Horizon is not chosen, the Collectors will continue to abduct more colonies and further lives will be lost because of an unwillingness to make sacrifices for the greater good. 

[chris025657]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that the writers often get renegade decisions wrong in the game by portraying it as being a jerk or doing the easy thing, but this is not what renegade should be about. Renegade is about doing whatever is necessary in the name of the greater good. This is the kind of motivation behind orchestrating the attack on Horizon, and I think it was the right decision that saved lives.

But both sides have to do what's necessary, otherwise the game would only be able to be completed by Renegades.

I really don't want to turn this thread into a paragon/renegade debate, but I never said paragons don't get the job done. I was just trying to explain the reasoning behind the attack on Horizon. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wasn't really a sacrifice when the colonies being abducted are a constant.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 septembre 2010 - 12:08 .