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[MaaZeus]

DPSSOC wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

I'd rather destroy it than give it to those Cerberus, despite their big talk they clearly cannot handle such technology responsibly. If Bioware would have given us an option to give it to council and/or alliance, I would take that choice over all else.

And what, precisely, makes you think the Council or Alliance would do any better?  The Council (both the organization in general and the Three Stooges specifically) has a long sad history of collosal **** ups, and the Alliance created and lost control of Cerberus, what does that say about their ability to handle something like this?

I've said in a previous post I have no doubt that Cerberus is going to manage the base poorly, many people will most likely die needlessly horrific deaths because of their mismanagement, but to claim that any other organization we're exposed to could do any better ignores how utterly incompetent they show themselves to be.

I know council and alliance are not exactly competent, but unlike Cerberus they do have the best of Galaxy in mind as good as they can. Problem is that they do not believe in Reapers, but this base might change that. And those three stooges in the lead of the council are not exactly controlling the base research, researchers study it and finally the council makes use of the results best they can.

Cerberus might be competent in making the best out of the Reaper techology, but being human supremacists they will definetly use it to crush other races under the iron heel of human race dominance. TIM even admits it.


So Council and Alliance is definetly lesser of two evils, goals being the major difference.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 12:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

That's a laugh.



The Alliance is a nakedly self-interested organization that's been seeking political advancement as an open matter of policy for years. The Council has historically acted as an influence racket to the advantage of its member species, and has a pattern of committing/allowing genocide as a matter of policy. It can only claim to be acting for the interest of the galaxy in as much as the galaxy is confined to a compromise of Turian, Asari, and Salarian desires.





And the next person who confuses dominance with fascist symbolism deserves a smack upside their head and a number of history lessons about what historical dominance has actually meant in any sort of long-term arrangement.

[MaaZeus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's a laugh.

The Alliance is a nakedly self-interested organization that's been seeking political advancement as an open matter of policy for years. The Council has historically acted as an influence racket to the advantage of its member species, and has a pattern of committing/allowing genocide as a matter of policy. It can only claim to be acting for the interest of the galaxy in as much as the galaxy is confined to a compromise of Turian, Asari, and Salarian desires.


And the next person who confuses dominance with fascist symbolism deserves a smack upside their head and a number of history lessons about what historical dominance has actually meant in any sort of long-term arrangement.

Of course they are self interested. I dont trust ANY politician, all of them play to their own pockets in one way or another. But they still strive for general good of the galaxy somehow, thats their job and otherwise I think they would be kicked out quite fast. No comment on Alliance as I figure that after war with sovereign they are the dominant military force in the galaxy. If I give to base to council, Alliance will be mixed in somewhere.

About Cerberus, no matter how I look it, while not all Cerberus are human supremacist xenophobes TIM certainly comes out this way. I did not mean they would make all other their slaves or crush them otherwise. But he definetly wants to make sure that humans will be the ruling element through the galaxy.

But council is definetly lesser of the evils. Destroying the base is bit self centered and self righteous act IMHO.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 12:57 .

[DPSSOC]

MaaZeus wrote...
Cerberus might be competent in making the best out of the Reaper techology, but being human supremacists they will definetly use it to crush other races under the iron heel of human race dominance. TIM even admits it.

And so the cycle of War, Peace, Oppression rolls on. 

• Cerberus masters Reaper Tech
• Reapers defeated
• Cerberus uses Reaper tech to oppress aliens
• aliens chafe under Cerberus oppression
• aliens rise up against oppression
• Repeat steps 3 through 5 as necessary
• Cerberus is defeated (eventually)
• Aliens oppress humans
• Humans chafe under alien oppression
• Lather, rinse, repeat from now til the end of time.

[Dean_the_Young]

MaaZeus wrote...

Of course they are self interested. I dont trust ANY politician, all of them play to their own pockets in one way or another. But they still strive for general good of the galaxy somehow, thats their job and otherwise I think they would be kicked out quite fast. No comment on Alliance as I figure that after war with sovereign they are the dominant military force in the galaxy. If I give to base to council, Alliance will be mixed in somewhere.

That's close to double-think there, simaltaneously taking the position that the parties are self-interested AND act on behalf of the galactic good.

A bit of a shame that you don't extend that to it's logical conclusion, that Cerberus acting in human self-interest also has benefits for the galaxy. Like increasing the chance of surviving the Reaper hoarde.

About Cerberus, no matter how I look it, while not all Cerberus are human supremacist xenophobes TIM certainly comes out this way.

In what ways has tim been a xenophobe?  Or a racist? Certainly he has never claimed that humans are inherently supperior on account of their genome.

Cerberus fits a xeno-nationalist profile much better than any racist profiling, which is to be expected in a galaxy which (for reasons political and fourth-wall breaking lazy writing) is uniformly xeno-national in outlook. The Council recognizes races, not individual political units, and even then insists on one species representative for however many factions behind a race. Races, one should add, that have their own race-advancing groups like the Asari Commandoes and STG. Xeno-nationalism is the galactic norm, not an abnormality.

I did not mean they would make all other their slaves or crush them otherwise. But he definetly wants to make sure that humans will be the ruling element through the galaxy.

Then shape up and stop using metaphors for depictions and scenarios you aren't going behind.

But council is definetly lesser of the evils. Destroying the base is bit self centered and self righteous act IMHO.

How many species has Cerberus genocided/stood by and let genocide happen to? How many has the Council?

The Council is only the lesser of two evils if you ignore everything horrific the Council has done/does and lose all pretense of scale.

[Dean_the_Young]

DPSSOC wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...
Cerberus might be competent in making the best out of the Reaper techology, but being human supremacists they will definetly use it to crush other races under the iron heel of human race dominance. TIM even admits it.

And so the cycle of War, Peace, Oppression rolls on. 

• Cerberus masters Reaper Tech
• Reapers defeated
• Cerberus uses Reaper tech to oppress aliens
• aliens chafe under Cerberus oppression
• aliens rise up against oppression
• Repeat steps 3 through 5 as necessary
• Cerberus is defeated (eventually)
• Aliens oppress humans
• Humans chafe under alien oppression
• Lather, rinse, repeat from now til the end of time.

Oppressing the aliens would be shortsighted, counterproductive, entirely unimaginative, and historically blind. Domination through oppression is ineffective: enduring domination comes from a variety of things, the capability of force being just a part of that.

[Timmibal]

Why do I destroy the reaper base?



ME: Retribution.



/thread.

[staldore13]

A it would be giving it to the leader of an extremely unstable terrorist organisation

B reaper/collector tech being used by humans and such are traps set by the reapers

the citadel is only there to bring back the reaper fleet and the collector base might even do the same

C it might indoctrinate its inhabitants

[Dean_the_Young]

staldore13 wrote...

A it would be giving it to the leader of an extremely unstable terrorist organisation
B reaper/collector tech being used by humans and such are traps set by the reapers
the citadel is only there to bring back the reaper fleet and the collector base might even do the same
C it might indoctrinate its inhabitants

A) Unstable implies an organization ready to fall apart: nothing suggests Cerberus is close to collapse of any sort.

 If the Collector Base could serve as a Mass Relay to dark space, there would have been no reason for Sovereign to bother with the Citadel. The Reaper tech trap only applied as far as getting civilizations to the Citadel, nothing after. The Reapers never intended or planned for the Collector Base to be captured and their true technology revealed.

C) Besides the risk of indoctrination not being implied or suggested in-game, indoctrination is (a) something that can be circumvented with mechs and stopped, ( something that has to be addressed anyway, and © a threat only to Cerberus.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

staldore13 wrote...

A it would be giving it to the leader of an extremely unstable terrorist organisation
B reaper/collector tech being used by humans and such are traps set by the reapers
the citadel is only there to bring back the reaper fleet and the collector base might even do the same
C it might indoctrinate its inhabitants

A) Unstable implies an organization ready to fall apart: nothing suggests Cerberus is close to collapse of any sort.

 If the Collector Base could serve as a Mass Relay to dark space, there would have been no reason for Sovereign to bother with the Citadel. The Reaper tech trap only applied as far as getting civilizations to the Citadel, nothing after. The Reapers never intended or planned for the Collector Base to be captured and their true technology revealed.

C) Besides the risk of indoctrination not being implied or suggested in-game, indoctrination is (a) something that can be circumvented with mechs and stopped, ( something that has to be addressed anyway, and © a threat only to Cerberus.

Unstable doesnt necessarily mean falling apart. Unstable means "ideologically unstable" or "organisationally unstable".
Either (and both) descriptions apply to to Cerberus. atm TIM is Cerberus. That makes Cerberus very unstable and the terrorist activities they prevaricate too makes "extremely unstable" an apt description.

Indoctrination has not been sufficiently dealt with at all. "mechs to get around it" is rhetorical at best. Indoctrination presents itself as a major issue in the upcoming conflict if not the defining issue.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 08 juin 2010 - 04:41 .

[Thesuperdevil]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

C) Besides the risk of indoctrination not being implied or suggested in-game, indoctrination is (a) something that can be circumvented with mechs and stopped, ( something that has to be addressed anyway, and © a threat only to Cerberus.

Precisely. If we are to defeat the Reapers, it will almost certainly be key that we must develop countermeasures against indoctrination. If the Collector Base is found to possess indoctrinating characteristics (despite that Shepard and his/her team never appeared to come under or even so much as notice even its most immediate effects), then it could provide an excellent proving grounds of sorts for experimental indoctrination countermeasures. So I would dare argue that indoctrination is not only not a concern, but is potentially beneficial for us in our fight against the Reapers.

Potential is the important word here. Even if the Base is not as helpful to us as we would have liked, if at all, what if it was? What if it really did hold a wealth of valuable information? You won't ever know if you destroy it. The sacrifice of this information if it exists could very well prove worse than the sacrifice of the thousands of humans at the hands of the Collectors in the deaths of additional millions, even billions of not just humans but individuals of other races at the hands of the Reapers that could have been avoided.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Thesuperdevil wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

C) Besides the risk of indoctrination not being implied or suggested in-game, indoctrination is (a) something that can be circumvented with mechs and stopped, ( something that has to be addressed anyway, and © a threat only to Cerberus.

Precisely. If we are to defeat the Reapers, it will almost certainly be key that we must develop countermeasures against indoctrination. If the Collector Base is found to possess indoctrinating characteristics (despite that Shepard and his/her team never appeared to come under or even so much as notice even its most immediate effects), then it could provide an excellent proving grounds of sorts for experimental indoctrination countermeasures. So I would dare argue that indoctrination is not only not a concern, but is potentially beneficial for us in our fight against the Reapers.

Potential is the important word here. Even if the Base is not as helpful to us as we would have liked, if at all, what if it was? What if it really did hold a wealth of valuable information? You won't ever know if you destroy it. The sacrifice of this information if it exists could very well prove worse than the sacrifice of the thousands of humans at the hands of the Collectors in the deaths of additional millions, even billions of not just humans but individuals of other races at the hands of the Reapers that could have been avoided.

Your first paragraph makes you sound like you are succumbing to indoctrination Superdevil.

Cerberus is not known for it's "process driven" analysis so would invariably overreach and succumb to it's power. That's part of the problem with Cerberus and handling the Collector Base, no one actually thinks that would handle it appropriately. Give it to the Alliance however and then you might have people thinking that they'd undertake study in a methodical fashion.

Cerberus still needs to establish sufficient trust before you can give them something like the Collector Base.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 08 juin 2010 - 04:57 .

[Thesuperdevil]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Thesuperdevil wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

C) Besides the risk of indoctrination not being implied or suggested in-game, indoctrination is (a) something that can be circumvented with mechs and stopped, ( something that has to be addressed anyway, and © a threat only to Cerberus.

Precisely. If we are to defeat the Reapers, it will almost certainly be key that we must develop countermeasures against indoctrination. If the Collector Base is found to possess indoctrinating characteristics (despite that Shepard and his/her team never appeared to come under or even so much as notice even its most immediate effects), then it could provide an excellent proving grounds of sorts for experimental indoctrination countermeasures. So I would dare argue that indoctrination is not only not a concern, but is potentially beneficial for us in our fight against the Reapers.

Potential is the important word here. Even if the Base is not as helpful to us as we would have liked, if at all, what if it was? What if it really did hold a wealth of valuable information? You won't ever know if you destroy it. The sacrifice of this information if it exists could very well prove worse than the sacrifice of the thousands of humans at the hands of the Collectors in the deaths of additional millions, even billions of not just humans but individuals of other races at the hands of the Reapers that could have been avoided.

Your first paragraph makes you sound like you are succumbing to indoctrination Superdevil

Maybe...

ASSUMING DIRECT CON-

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...
Cerberus might be competent in making the best out of the Reaper techology, but being human supremacists they will definetly use it to crush other races under the iron heel of human race dominance. TIM even admits it.

And so the cycle of War, Peace, Oppression rolls on. 

• Cerberus masters Reaper Tech
• Reapers defeated
• Cerberus uses Reaper tech to oppress aliens
• aliens chafe under Cerberus oppression
• aliens rise up against oppression
• Repeat steps 3 through 5 as necessary
• Cerberus is defeated (eventually)
• Aliens oppress humans
• Humans chafe under alien oppression
• Lather, rinse, repeat from now til the end of time.

Oppressing the aliens would be shortsighted, counterproductive, entirely unimaginative, and historically blind. Domination through oppression is ineffective: enduring domination comes from a variety of things, the capability of force being just a part of that.

Still I hardly think that domination of Aliens by Cerberus (Since I doubt TIM will allow the Alliance to take control as he'd probably pull something like "I AM HUMANITY!" If shep or anyone calls him out) would be preferable to being wiped out since Cerberus seems to be pretty short sighted in its plans for human Dominance. Also, Racial Superiority (Which the creed of Human Dominance is =p ) has never turned out well for the 'non-superior' race(s).

[lovgreno]

DPSSOC wrote...
And what, precisely, makes you think the Council or Alliance would do any better?  The Council (both the organization in general and the Three Stooges specifically) has a long sad history of collosal **** ups, and the Alliance created and lost control of Cerberus, what does that say about their ability to handle something like this?

I've said in a previous post I have no doubt that Cerberus is going to manage the base poorly, many people will most likely die needlessly horrific deaths because of their mismanagement, but to claim that any other organization we're exposed to could do any better ignores how utterly incompetent they show themselves to be.

The Council and Alliance have vastly bigger resources than Cerberus and more importantly public support. I say they would probaly handle the base better.
For the same reason they are also better suited to rule than a humanity ruling according to a Cerberus plan.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

lovgreno wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
And what, precisely, makes you think the Council or Alliance would do any better?  The Council (both the organization in general and the Three Stooges specifically) has a long sad history of collosal **** ups, and the Alliance created and lost control of Cerberus, what does that say about their ability to handle something like this?

I've said in a previous post I have no doubt that Cerberus is going to manage the base poorly, many people will most likely die needlessly horrific deaths because of their mismanagement, but to claim that any other organization we're exposed to could do any better ignores how utterly incompetent they show themselves to be.

The Council and Alliance have vastly bigger resources than Cerberus and more importantly public support. I say they would probaly handle the base better.
For the same reason they are also better suited to rule than a humanity ruling according to a Cerberus plan.

A cerberus leadership for the galaxy would be absurb and closer to a dictatorship.

The Alliance and the Council are slower to act, because they're polotical beasts. I think the reality of the spectres suggests that they do get things done. Saying they are incompetant is flamey as opposed to realistic... nothing incompetant about spectres.

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
C) Besides the risk of indoctrination not being implied or suggested in-game, indoctrination is (a) something that can be circumvented with mechs and stopped, ( something that has to be addressed anyway, and © a threat only to Cerberus.

If I remember Virmire right, at least one of the "guinea pig" Salarians complained about cutting. Implying that Saren's scientists tried to locate the areas of the brain most receptive to indoctrination and to isolate them from the rest of the brain. Rana Thanoptis might be willing to speak about the results and failures - if you gave her the chance to run.

[Ieldra]

Sajuro wrote...
Still I hardly think that domination of Aliens by Cerberus (Since I doubt TIM will allow the Alliance to take control as he'd probably pull something like "I AM HUMANITY!" If shep or anyone calls him out) would be preferable to being wiped out since Cerberus seems to be pretty short sighted in its plans for human Dominance. Also, Racial Superiority (Which the creed of Human Dominance is =p ) has never turned out well for the 'non-superior' race(s).

Just a moment....you think being wiped out - remember, we're talking about our whole species being wiped out for all time - would be preferrable to Cerberus domination? Perhaps then in your games, humanity deserves to be wiped out if this is the prevailing attitude...

Also, racial superiority is not the creed of human dominance. In the ME universe, species act mostly as nations, not as races. Which means that dominance by one species amounts to nothing more than regular empire-building. An ideology of racial superiority may be present or not, but I don't see such an attitude in Cerberus - nowhere in the games do they say non-humans are intrinsically inferior, deserve to be treated as slaves etc.. They just say "our only concern is humanity".

As for what empire-building may result in: look at the successful empires in human history. Sure they all have their history of militarism and occasional oppression, but apart from that, they have been pretty varied. An often-observed phenomenon was a cosmopolitan attitude at the core, a result not of any particular virtue, but of the necessity of having to integrate many different peoples. Why did they do this? Because oppression, while having its place in certain times and places, is not a fruitful global long-term strategy. In other words, there is no indication that a human interstellar empire would be any worse than the Roman or British empires in human history. Not ideal, maybe, but tolerable, and very much preferrable to extinction.
 

[Collider]

I don't trust Cerberus with the base. At all. They've shown their incompetence and amorality. That won't blend well with the Collector Base.

[MaaZeus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's close to double-think there, simaltaneously taking the position
that the parties are self-interested AND act on behalf of the galactic
good.

A bit of a shame that you don't extend that to it's logical
conclusion, that Cerberus acting in human self-interest also has
benefits for the galaxy. Like increasing the chance of surviving the
Reaper hoarde.

Indeed. Welcome to the world of politics. I do not understand it fully myself but it really seems to work this way IRL and in ME.

In what ways has tim been a xenophobe?  Or a racist? Certainly he has
never claimed that humans are inherently supperior on account of their
genome.

I was loaning the words of Miranda, as Cerberus is generally known as racist xenophobes according to her which is not the case in her opinion.

Then shape up and stop using metaphors for depictions and scenarios you
aren't going behind.

This is a difficult one because we are talking about the way I speak. Especially because english isnt my first language I tend to use heavy hyperbole and exaggeration to make my point, I do not expect people to take what I say word to word but pick the idea behind my words. But about Cerberus what  I have seen and hear about them through ME1 and ME2 scream that TIM is a human supremacists and have very little use for morals when it comes to their research, and I do stand behind this impression.

How many species has Cerberus genocided/stood by and let genocide happen
to? How many has the Council?

The Council is only the lesser of
two evils if you ignore everything horrific the Council has done/does
and lose all pretense of scale.

What do you mean? Clarify a bit please.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 10:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

MaaZeus wrote...

Indeed. Welcome to the world of politics. I do not understand it fully myself but it really seems to work this way IRL and in ME.

The world of politics is why your initial statement was laughable.

I was loaning the words of Miranda, as Cerberus is generally known as racist xenophobes according to her which is not the case in her opinion.

Besides the confusion between the relative directions of loaning and borrowing (you loan to someone, borrow from them), you're selectively picking words which Miranda was making a case against when she called them wrong. Taking someone's words so out of context is a sin of poor and  deceitful arguing: it would be like taking only the first half of the Jesus quote "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" and then argue that "do onto others" is a divine license to rape, rob, pillage and burn.

How many species has Cerberus genocided/stood by and let genocide happen
to? How many has the Council?

The Council is only the lesser of
two evils if you ignore everything horrific the Council has done/does
and lose all pretense of scale.

What do you mean? Clarify a bit please.

To say that the Council is clearly the lesser of two evils is not an inherently true statement, it is something that can be looked at and evaluated on it's own claims, that claim being comparative evils.

When you look at the scale of comparative crimes, the Council has done and does do things Cerberus has never come close to matching in intent, scope, or scale.

The Council committed (one queen short of) total genocide against the Rachni when the war was already won. The Council unleashed the genophage on the Krogan, again after the war had already been determined. When the Quarians attempted to correct their own mistake and shut down the Geth (something Council law on AI development would have demanded), the Council not only did not help them try, not only did nothing as a Citadel species was massacred and genocided until less than 1% of the species remained, but then cast the Quarians out of Citadel space and sent them into an eternal exile rather than giving them shelter and a colony world where their immune systems would not collapse. Since it hasn't happened yet, we will also ignore that the Council is willingly deluding itself about an upcoming galactic genocide while Cerberus is actively fighting the Reapers.

These are just species-level genocide incidents, total genocide being what we can all agree is one of the greatest crimes that can be comitted. These ignore other actions for which there are many cases for being disgusted, for the undoubtable acts of their own wetworks projects like the STG, or the legalized crime worlds like Illium. And it certainly avoids the unquestionable crimes of the law-free Spectres.

Just focusing on a three crimes of genocidal proportions and nothing else, what has Cerberus ever done or stated a desire to do that rivals what the Council does not even apologize for?

[MaaZeus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Besides the confusion between the relative directions of loaning and
borrowing (you loan to someone, borrow from them), you're selectively
picking words which Miranda was making a case against when she called them wrong. Taking someone's
words so out of context is a sin of poor and  deceitful arguing: it
would be like taking only the first half of the Jesus quote "do onto
others as you would have them do onto you" and then argue that "do onto
others" is a divine license to rape, rob, pillage and burn.

Read my post agan. And please dont be a grammar ****. I dont think I took Mirandas words out of context as she was defending the Cerberus organisation that they are not racist xenophobes even though people see them as such. And I agree, most likely not all of them are. But TIM is the questionable part here, and he is leading the whole Cerberus.

The Council committed (one queen short of) total genocide against the
Rachni when the war was already won. The Council unleashed the genophage
on the Krogan, again after the
war had already been determined.

Rachni were the aggressors. From what I know Council unleashed primitive Krogan on Rachni because they were LOSING (IIRC) by advancing Krogans technology before they were culturally ready for it, and this was clearly a MISTAKE. Krogan went too far and annihilated Rachni, and after that they started a violent expansion. Genophage was made to prevent ANOTHER genocide, other option would have been annihilation of Krogan according to Salarians, which they did not want to do just because they screwed up. This is how I understand it, council made a severe mistake. Am I wrong?


On Quarians, I agree. I do not understand why Council did this, it just doesnt make sense.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

To say that the Council is clearly the lesser of two evils is not an inherently true statement, it is something that can be looked at and evaluated on it's own claims, that claim being comparative evils.

When you look at the scale of comparative crimes, the Council has done and does do things Cerberus has never come close to matching in intent, scope, or scale.

1. By way of intent Cerberus outstrips the Council by a long way. Cerberus's stated intention is to put humans on top of the pile... with the implied advocacy of retaining control over any and all technologies, systems, deal making that would change that balance of power away from humans. The Citadel principle members (Salarian, Asari and Turian) do not have this intention. (Not saying they didn't have it before, just that they don't have it now) The three of them (in particular) have accepted an accord of mutual benefit. Cerberus' intention has no place for such an agreement.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Council committed (one queen short of) total genocide against the Rachni when the war was already won. The Council unleashed the genophage on the Krogan, again after the war had already been determined. When the Quarians attempted to correct their own mistake and shut down the Geth (something Council law on AI development would have demanded), the Council not only did not help them try, not only did nothing as a Citadel species was massacred and genocided until less than 1% of the species remained, but then cast the Quarians out of Citadel space and sent them into an eternal exile rather than giving them shelter and a colony world where their immune systems would not collapse. Since it hasn't happened yet, we will also ignore that the Council is willingly deluding itself about an upcoming galactic genocide while Cerberus is actively fighting the Reapers.

2. The handling of the Krogan and Rachni was a function of: "if we don't do something about their populations we will not be able to win against their unrelenting aggression". The Rachni Queen herself has conceded that the Rachni in the Rachni wars were abominations! An unrelenting aggressor removes the moral hazard of the crime of genocide, because the results from not acting are worse... It is still genocide but the moral imperative you assign to it is not there.. their duty as councillors is protection of Citadel species.. they did their duty. Notable here - The Citadel Councils duty is for all Council species not just one species - humans.

These are just species-level genocide incidents, total genocide being what we can all agree is one of the greatest crimes that can be comitted. These ignore other actions for which there are many cases for being disgusted, for the undoubtable acts of their own wetworks projects like the STG, or the legalized crime worlds like Illium. And it certainly avoids the unquestionable crimes of the law-free Spectres.

Just focusing on a three crimes of genocidal proportions and nothing else, what has Cerberus ever done or stated a desire to do that rivals what the Council does not even apologize for?

3. Finally, Cerberus acts unilaterrally for only human benefit. The Citadel Council acts fpr the benefit and protection of all species. Morally the Council has the higher ground. They have not shied from their duty and they have demostrated a proficiency in maintaining a system that works for many species..

Cerberus has only demonstrated how to stay hidden as it pursues goal of questionable authenticity and longevity.

When you look at the scale of comparative crimes, the
Council has done and does do things Cerberus has never come close to
matching in intent, scope, or scale.

So, quite the opposite, Cerberus has never matched the moral scale, scope or intent of the Citadel Council. The Councils actions in protecting many species over a long, long, long period of time from harm and facilitating their comminal benefit completely outstrips Cerberus's recent activities.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 08 juin 2010 - 11:42 .

[lovgreno]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
1. By way of intent Cerberus outstrips the Council by a long way. Cerberus's stated intention is to put humans on top of the pile... with the implied advocacy of retaining control over any and all technologies, systems, deal making that would change that balance of power away from humans. The Citadel principle members (Salarian, Asari and Turian) do not have this intention. (Not saying they didn't have it before, just that they don't have it now) The three of them (in particular) have accepted an accord of mutual benefit. Cerberus' intention has no place for such an agreement.

Also the Council considered including humanity, even though the Alliance demanded a place without proving themselves a valuable ally for all spiecies. Fifty years of rapid, also often violent and arrogant from the perspective of the other races, expansion is not enough time to get to know the humans good enough.
The council races have deliberately made themselves dependant on eachothers by specialising in things their races have a cultural advantage in. This is so no one can dominate the others.
Terra Firma and Cerberus don't want this, they want a council and galaxy dominated by humans.