3478 réponses à ce sujet

[MaaZeus]

Shandepared wrote...

So they desire human dominance by taking power away from humans? How is what Cerberus wants any more
evil than what the Council wants? The Council races work together out of
a sense of pragmatcism, that is, they work together to keep everyone
else out. What difference does it make if the Council is three races or
one race?

Really, do you really believe that a human group with questionable methods should rule them all versus (relatively) united galaxy with three leading figures working together, be it out or pragmatism or not?

Cerberus is still innocent of genocide, unlike the
Council. Secondly, we all know what official Council propaganda is so
you don't need to repeat it.

Council didnt do genocide if you are referring to Rachni, not directly. Unleashed Krogan did it and this was a screw up from councils part. And they had to stop it from getting any worse with genophage, instead of another genocide. No council propaganda, but words of the scientist working behind the scenes, Mordin.

[Christmas Ape]

The Councils actions in protecting many species over a long, long, long period of time from harm

Unless they're krogan or rachni.

and facilitating their communal benefit

Assuming they're not krogan, rachni, batarian, or drell.

completely outstrips Cerberus's recent activities.

Cerberus hasn't had more than a thousand years to slip its fingers into every pie worth the effort. It has, however - via the Lazarus Project - saved humanity from annihilation and conversion into genepaste.

Non-Council races eradicated by Council: 2

Non-Council races eradicated by Cerberus: 1 (Reaper-controlled)

Non-Council races saved by Council: 0

Non-Council races saved by Cerberus: 1



Moral victor: Cerberus.

[MaaZeus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

The Councils actions in protecting many species over a long, long, long period of time from harm

Unless they're krogan or rachni.

and facilitating their communal benefit

Assuming they're not krogan, rachni, batarian, or drell.

completely outstrips Cerberus's recent activities.

Cerberus hasn't had more than a thousand years to slip its fingers into every pie worth the effort. It has, however - via the Lazarus Project - saved humanity from annihilation and conversion into genepaste.
Non-Council races eradicated by Council: 2
Non-Council races eradicated by Cerberus: 1 (Reaper-controlled)
Non-Council races saved by Council: 0
Non-Council races saved by Cerberus: 1

Moral victor: Cerberus.

Rachni were the aggressors, and if ME2 hints hold true, indoctrinated. Unleashing krogans, while mistake, saved EVERYONE, thats why they did it but results went too far. And then Krogan rebelled, went aggressive against council. Genophage saved Krogan from genocide, they are still alive and kicking and population is steady.

So moral victory is still on the side of Council.


Bararians are not part of the council, they are in the Terminus system out of Councils jurisdiction. AFAIK so are is Drell homeworld. But Drell living on Hanar homeworld is a different story. What concerns Hanar also concerns Drell there most likely.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 12:14 .

[Christmas Ape]

Rachni were the aggressors, and if ME2 hints hold true, indoctrinated.

That was pretty clear if you do Noveria second or third in the first game anyway. Full credit for being the first to use "he started it!" in response to accusations of genocide, though.

And then genophage also saved Krogan from genocide, they are still alive and kicking and population is steady.

To again borrow from Lt. Stirling, "horsecrap". The krogan birth rate was stabilized to pre-industrial levels in such a way that it robbed an entire species of hope. Their population is declining, and rapidly. Between the two games Shepard probably kills more krogan than are born alive on Tuchanka in a year - and you're one Marine, with one ship. They're dying by degrees, but because there aren't any casualty lists coming to the Citadel everybody just passes it off as "their own fault", as if krogan aggression were a learned behavior.
Did it save civilization? Maybe. But they had to slit the krogan throat to do it, and while a species bleeds out they're all busy hiding the knife.

Batarians are not part of the council, they are in the Terminus system out of Councils jurisdiction.

They had an embassy until humanity stepped up and starting invading what they perceived as their borders, and the Council shrugged in response because we looked to be in the better position to benefit them. To which the point stands: they're not a Council race, the Council doesn't exist to serve them.

AFAIK so are is Drell homeworld. But Drell living on Hanar homeworld is a different story. What concerns Hanar also concerns Drell there most likely.

No location for the drell homeworld is ever given, though the point remains: the Council left ten point nine nine nine billion drell to die there, letting the issue be "a hanar matter".

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 08 juin 2010 - 12:24 .

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...
So they desire human dominance by taking power away from humans? How is what Cerberus wants any more evil than what the Council wants? The Council races work together out of a sense of pragmatcism, that is, they work together to keep everyone else out. What difference does it make if the Council is three races or one race?

The Council was considering sharing their power with the humans, despite the fact that the humans are a very new and unknown race on the galactic political scene. Of course they wanted signs from the humans that they don't want to dominate everything (=the agenda of Cerberus and Terra Firma by the way). In theory any race can join the council but it comes with great responsibilities (taking care of all races interests and protection) wich means only superpowers are realistic council members.

The council is supposed to represent the people of the Council Space, not a single race and it's limited agenda. Humans can rule humans but not the other races because they are not those other races. A asari knows what is best for a asari, not a human. Sharing power is the only effective option in the long run.

Modifié par lovgreno, 08 juin 2010 - 12:24 .

[Kenrae]

Thesuperdevil wrote...
The Council has proven themselves to be willfully ignorant of the Reaper threat and the Alliance has pretty much abandoned you and also chooses to largely ignore the Reapers.

Mmm, that's not necessarily true. That's the "face" they've shown you on ME2 but they could very well working against the threat behind the scenes. Actually, it's the only thing that would make any sense.

[Kenrae]

DPSSOC wrote...

And what, precisely, makes you think the Council or Alliance would do any better?  The Council (both the organization in general and the Three Stooges specifically) has a long sad history of collosal **** ups, and the Alliance created and lost control of Cerberus, what does that say about their ability to handle something like this?

Are you completely sure about that? 

[MaaZeus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Rachni were the aggressors, and if ME2 hints hold true, indoctrinated.

That was pretty clear if you do Noveria second or third in the first game anyway. Full credit for being the first to use "he started it!" in response to accusations of genocide, though.

And then genophage also saved Krogan from genocide, they are still alive and kicking and population is steady.

To again borrow from Lt. Stirling, "horsecrap". The krogan birth rate was stabilized to pre-industrial levels in such a way that it robbed an entire species of hope. Their population is declining, and rapidly. Between the two games Shepard probably kills more krogan than are born alive on Tuchanka in a year - and you're one Marine, with one ship. They're dying by degrees, but because there aren't any casualty lists coming to the Citadel everybody just passes it off as "their own fault", as if krogan aggression were a learned behavior.
Did it save civilization? Maybe. But they had to slit the krogan throat to do it, and while a species bleeds out they're all busy hiding the knife.

Indeed. And thats why I say unleashing Krogan was a mistake from councils part. Before Rachni wars Krogan were not widely spacefaring, but quite primitive and violent culture with incredible physique, incredibly hard to kill and bred like rabbits. Council, who was slowly losing the war with Rachni AFAIK gave them technology (IIRC more accurately Salarians did it, council gave blessing to this plan) they were not ready for and used them as shocktroops.

This won the war with Rachni, but also bit them in the arse. Rachni got annihilated and then Krogan started violent expansion. And then you know how it ends. Yes, Krogan suffered because of this, but it can be cured provided they mature as a race enough and not start breed like rabbits again and start another violent expansion.

[MaaZeus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Batarians are not part of the council, they are in the Terminus system out of Councils jurisdiction.

They had an embassy until humanity stepped up and starting invading what they perceived as their borders, and the Council shrugged in response because we looked to be in the better position to benefit them. To which the point stands: they're not a Council race, the Council doesn't exist to serve them.

AFAIK so are is Drell homeworld. But Drell living on Hanar homeworld is a different story. What concerns Hanar also concerns Drell there most likely.

No location for the drell homeworld is ever given, though the point remains: the Council left ten point nine nine nine billion drell to die there, letting the issue be "a hanar matter".

This Batarian embassy in Citadel thing I was not aware of. I have to read more of this subject.


About Drell, you are correct. The location of their homeworld was not given. But it is probaply either outside or in the outskirts of council. If I understood correctly Drell were not even spacefaring race, and were dying. Hanar found them and saved what they could? To think that they should go and save every newfound race from extinction is bit naive in my eyes.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 12:33 .

[MaaZeus]

Shandepared wrote...

lovgreno wrote...


The Council was considering sharing their power with the humans, despite the fact that the humans are a very new and unknown race on the galactic political scene.

Why should we settled for shared power when we can hold all of it?

LOL. This makes further discussion with you bit pointless I think...

[Christmas Ape]

provided they mature as a race enough and not start breed like rabbits again and start another violent expansion.

That's....absurd, and if they were real, offensive.
Personally, I don't think we should trust the salarians until they mature enough as a race to have proper century-long lifespans and marriages.
Krogan don't learn to want to fight. They're a naturally aggressive species. Predators by evolution, adapted to an environment where death is omnipresent from birth onward. You are proposing that they hold on for millions of years so they evolve into a species the Council is willing to cure.

And I'm not saying the Council should have mobilized the entire fleet to pull every last drell off their dying homeworld.
But they could have done more than give the hanar a pat on the back about it.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 08 juin 2010 - 12:36 .

[MaaZeus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

provided they mature as a race enough and not start breed like rabbits again and start another violent expansion.

That's....absurd, and if they were real, offensive.
Personally, I don't think we should trust the salarians until they mature enough as a race to have proper century-long lifespans and marriages.
Krogan don't learn to want to fight. They're a naturally aggressive species. Predators by evolution, adapted to an environment where death is omnipresent from birth onward. You are proposing that they hold on for millions of years so they evolve into a species the Council is willing to cure.

Its sad isnt it? As I said, council screwed up a big time on this. Though I have hopes it is possible, Wrex is already trying to do something about it. Nothing against breeding a lot, its how you expand your territory. Krogan prefer all out war because thats how their old culture worked, instead of diplomacy.

Notice how Asari have not taken over the world. They live long and can breed with anyone. But this isnt happening. Perhaps same can be with Krogan?

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 12:41 .

[LorDC]

I can understand that Krogan/Rachni situation was necessary evil(still you can't blame Rachni genocide on Krogan since they were pretty much controllable in that days). But fate of Quarians(who found home once but were driven from there by Turian fleet) says for itself. Their refuse to protect human colonies after Eden Prime is disturbing too.

Basically it is either Council is incompetent or not all that righteous.

Philosophical side-note: discussion came down to which end better justifies the means "humanity greater-good" or "galaxy greater-good". Considering what Council did in the past I'd stick with first one.

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...

lovgreno wrote...


The Council was considering sharing their power with the humans, despite the fact that the humans are a very new and unknown race on the galactic political scene.

Why should we settled for shared power when we can hold all of it?

Because the human Alliance isn't even able to controll and protect their own colonies. Because we don't know everything about all the other races. Because turian military, asari economy and salarian intelligence. Because empires and dictatorships are old fashioned and inefficent. Because we don't have to prove we are badass and not weak by dominating everything. Because we can benefit from other races better if we let the people who are best at ruling them (=themselves) rule. Because pluralism is more efficent than a single idea.

[LorDC]

MaaZeus wrote...
Bararians are not part of the council, they are in the Terminus system out of Councils jurisdiction. AFAIK so are is Drell homeworld. But Drell living on Hanar homeworld is a different story. What concerns Hanar also concerns Drell there most likely.

In other words you are saying that if something does not belong to Council they shouldn't care about it. Or again in other words Council should care only about their own asses. That's not better than Cerberus who cares only about humanity.

[MaaZeus]

LorDC wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...
Bararians are not part of the council, they are in the Terminus system out of Councils jurisdiction. AFAIK so are is Drell homeworld. But Drell living on Hanar homeworld is a different story. What concerns Hanar also concerns Drell there most likely.

In other words you are saying that if something does not belong to Council they shouldn't care about it. Or again in other words Council should care only about their own asses. That's not better than Cerberus who cares only about humanity.

On the contrary, being idealistic person I do think they SHOULD care and do something about it. But I also realise thats not how the world works...

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 12:53 .

[Christmas Ape]

MaaZeus wrote...
Its sad isnt it? As I said, council screwed up a big time on this. Though I have hopes it is possible, Wrex is already trying to do something about it. Nothing against breeding a lot, its how you expand your territory. Krogan prefer all out war because thats how their old culture worked, instead of diplomacy.

Krogan are never going to be settlers and diplomats. It's not in their nature. Krogan baseline psychology, before the quirks of an individual come into effect, doesn't value compromise or taking your time. It values short direct routes, dominance struggles, and insider/outsider loyalty constructs. It's not like we're discussing if Dutch and Cambodian people can get along without their cultural differences; different brain structure, hormone levels, neurotransmitters...they're not human and one can't treat them as humans in funny suits.

Notice how Asari have not taken over the world. They live long and can breed with anyone.

Non sequitor. Krogan behaviour isn't a feature of a robust life expectancy or high birth numbers (which asari don't appear to have - many Matriarchs seem to have a small number of children over their entire lives), it's a feature of being krogan. Even Wrex, who is one of the most level-headed, experienced, and long-planning krogan alive:
Pulls a gun on you.
Guns down Fist in cold blood.
Headbutts his way through negotiations.
Threatens to eat two ERCS guards.

They're not genetically selected for harmony and consensus-building. They're selected for dominance. What you advocate freeing from the genophage won't be krogan any more than the Collectors are Protheans any more.

[LorDC]

lovgreno wrote...
Because the human Alliance isn't even able to controll and protect their own colonies. Because we don't know everything about all the other races. Because turian military, asari economy and salarian intelligence. Because empires and dictatorships are old fashioned and inefficent. Because we don't have to prove we are badass and not weak by dominating everything. Because we can benefit from other races better if we let the people who are best at ruling them (=themselves) rule. Because pluralism is more efficent than a single idea.

Where did Cerberus or TIM said that they want to establish "empire and dictatorship"? Or did I miss something and TIM wants to put human as the head of Turian Hierarchy?

[MaaZeus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...
Its sad isnt it? As I said, council screwed up a big time on this. Though I have hopes it is possible, Wrex is already trying to do something about it. Nothing against breeding a lot, its how you expand your territory. Krogan prefer all out war because thats how their old culture worked, instead of diplomacy.

Krogan are never going to be settlers and diplomats. It's not in their nature. Krogan baseline psychology, before the quirks of an individual come into effect, doesn't value compromise or taking your time. It values short direct routes, dominance struggles, and insider/outsider loyalty constructs. It's not like we're discussing if Dutch and Cambodian people can get along without their cultural differences; different brain structure, hormone levels, neurotransmitters...they're not human and one can't treat them as humans in funny suits.

Notice how Asari have not taken over the world. They live long and can breed with anyone.

Non sequitor. Krogan behaviour isn't a feature of a robust life expectancy or high birth numbers (which asari don't appear to have - many Matriarchs seem to have a small number of children over their entire lives), it's a feature of being krogan. Even Wrex, who is one of the most level-headed, experienced, and long-planning krogan alive:
Pulls a gun on you.
Guns down Fist in cold blood.
Headbutts his way through negotiations.
Threatens to eat two ERCS guards.

They're not genetically selected for harmony and consensus-building. They're selected for dominance. What you advocate freeing from the genophage won't be krogan any more than the Collectors are Protheans any more.

True. And this is the reason why Krogan were not ready for space technology. War is in their blood, and they are danger to races around them. Wrex is a krogan through and through, but should be level headed enough to know that war for expansion is not way to go. Genophage was done before and can be done again.

Perhaps Krogan will never be peaceful enough, who knows. I am NOT defending Genophage, it is morally very wrong and situation should not have come to this and when I play ME2 I let Mordin know very well what I think about it.

What I am saying is that Genophage was not the major mistake, it was only least bad solution to a situation that was out of hand and it letted Krogan atleast live. This all came from councils mistake of giving Krogan the technology instead of letting them evolve themselves and probaply learn to use it responsibly on their own with their cultures own terms. THIS was the big mistake of Council in Rachni wars that led to quite a bit of misery.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 01:06 .

[MaaZeus]

Shandepared wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...


On the contrary, being idealistic person(...)

That is your greatest flaw.

Perhaps. Biggest strenght, because of this I strive for good in all situations, and this is not a flaw. But greatest flaw because RL is a cruel place and doesnt work like it.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 08 juin 2010 - 01:08 .