3478 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:

- The mass relays
- Mass Effect field technology
- The citadel
- EDI
- Grunt (via collectors)
- The Thanix Gun

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since various elements of Reaper technology are demonstratively reproducible without reaper smoothie materials, there's no point in investing in a whole new Reaper in the first place when you can selectively take the parts you want and apply them to the existing space ships we have. Things like weapons, engines, shields, AI warfare. Even our own Mass Relay technology, since the Protheans proved you could go down that path without smoothie materials.

I know the Thannix Cannon came from Sovereign and that apparently no "residual indoctrination" eminated from the parts. But that the derelict reaper (millions of years old) did maintain its indoctrinating effect.

I'm assuming that the meat smoothies are required for birthing a Reaper actual. And that Reaper tech per se can be separated away from their various nefarious means of control. I assume some distinction is going to be made about how the "Derelict Reaper" is not an actual "Reaper being" but was persistently under the sway of Reaper control for 30 million years (thus you can call it a Reaper).

Because at the moment, I am unclear whether the big ships are the "actual Reaper beings" or that the Reaper we destroyed at the end of ME2 will grow into something as big as a 2km ship like Sovereign (if that's true then where was all the Prothean protein paste/goo when Sovereign went down?? lol)

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 10 juin 2010 - 11:18 .

[GETH1183]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since various elements of Reaper technology are demonstratively reproducible without reaper smoothie materials, there's no point in investing in a whole new Reaper in the first place when you can selectively take the parts you want and apply them to the existing space ships we have. Things like weapons, engines, shields, AI warfare. Even our own Mass Relay technology, since the Protheans proved you could go down that path without smoothie materials.

I know the Thannix Cannon came from Sovereign and that apparently no "residual indoctrination" eminated from the parts. But that the derelict reaper (millions of years old) did maintain its indoctrinating effect.

I'm assuming that the meat smoothies are required for birthing a Reaper actual. And that Reaper tech per se can be separated away from their various nefarious means of control. I assume some distinction is going to be made about how the "Derelict Reaper" is not an actual "Reaper being" but was persistently under the sway of Reaper control for 30 million years (thus you can call it a Reaper).

Because at the moment, I am unclear whether the big ships are the "actual Reaper beings" or that the Reaper we destroyed at the end of ME2 will grow into something as big as a 2km ship like Sovereign (if that's true then where was all the Prothean protein paste/goo when Sovereign went down?? lol)

Another theory is that the indoctrination effect is caused by the Reaper's Mass Effect Core not the technology around it. Also I believe that the squid shaped form of the other Reapers is merely their 'evolved' state that allows interstellar flight or a shell that protect the true Reaper form. EDI confirms a Prothean Reaper was not created due to their unusable genetics. It is likely that the Reapers foresaw unusable species and created the 'helpers', this time called the Collectors, from them.

Modifié par GETH1183, 10 juin 2010 - 05:09 .

[Dean_the_Young]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since various elements of Reaper technology are demonstratively reproducible without reaper smoothie materials, there's no point in investing in a whole new Reaper in the first place when you can selectively take the parts you want and apply them to the existing space ships we have. Things like weapons, engines, shields, AI warfare. Even our own Mass Relay technology, since the Protheans proved you could go down that path without smoothie materials.

I know the Thannix Cannon came from Sovereign and that apparently no "residual indoctrination" eminated from the parts. But that the derelict reaper (millions of years old) did maintain its indoctrinating effect.

There has yet to be any such thing as 'residual' indoctrination. Indoctrination is a field effect that is transmitted and modulated at command. You can start it, stop it, containerize it, block it, all of which Saren did on Virmire. Indoctrination is an active effect a specific device produces, much like radio transmitters. If something does not have an indoctrination transmitter built into it and activated, it will not indoctrinate. If something does not even have an indoctrination transmitter as a part of it, it can not indoctrinate.

I'm assuming that the meat smoothies are required for birthing a Reaper actual. And that Reaper tech per se can be separated away from their various nefarious means of control. I assume some distinction is going to be made about how the "Derelict Reaper" is not an actual "Reaper being" but was persistently under the sway of Reaper control for 30 million years (thus you can call it a Reaper).

The Derilect Reaper was a reaper.

Reaper technology and Reapers themselves are two distinct aspects. Reaper goo, to date, appears to relate to the form and 'mind' of the Reaper, the form of a species 'ascension.' Reaper technology is just that: concepts, theories, and effects of forces that produce varied effects. While it may be that Reaper goo is the superb material for implementing Reaper technology, it is a proven fact that it is not necessary, and nothing suggests that other aspects of Reaper technology (the Mass Relays, the Citadel, Dragon Teeth, etc.) are made out of Reaper goo at all.

Because at the moment, I am unclear whether the big ships are the "actual Reaper beings" or that the Reaper we destroyed at the end of ME2 will grow into something as big as a 2km ship like Sovereign (if that's true then where was all the Prothean protein paste/goo when Sovereign went down?? lol)

The ships are Reapers. What we saw at the end of ME2 was a Reaper larva, a barely started form. Only tens of thousands of Colonists had been implemented, and as the Collector Ship mission implies the Collectors were prepared to attack Earth itself (home to billions of humans to abduct).

The paste is the metal. Whatever species Sovereign was made of (not Protheans: they could not be made into Reapers), it was the metal that made up Sovereign.

[DPSSOC]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
You could replicate the form and tech of a Reaper vessel without having to slurry people.  Example; I find a shoe I like and would like to make a similar shoe myself, it turns out this particular shoe was made with sweatshop labour, do I need to use sweatshop labour to recreate the shoe?

Hmm, Reaper without Reaper juice = lifeless Reaper.
Hmpf, I have no idea, but I am guessing organic races finely blended into smoothies is required as Reaper blood, lymphatic system etc.
I wonder if the separate our pieces before throwing us through the meat grinder? (soz, jokes)

Yes a Reaper without Reaper juice wouldn't be a Reaper, it'd just be a very big, powerful ship.  What I'm proposing is replicate the physical construction compensating for whatever the organic bits provide with conventional tech.  Might not be as powerful as a full Reaper but it's still most likely a step up from what we have.  Keep in mind an entire fleet of conventional warships, focusing all it's firepower, wasn't even able to make a dent in Sovereign until Shepard killed him.

Further food for thought, Sovereign was intended to observe and report on the status of organic life in the galaxy.  He was functionally a scout, so we should consider the possibility that by Reaper standards Sovereign was small.

[Nightwriter]

Yes, TIM creating a human Reaper is ridiculous, people, stop making the destroy-the-base side look bad with that argument!

So is the "Oh but it'll be playing into the Reapers' hands to use that technology!" argument. As if the Reapers ever intended anyone to get past the Omega 4 Relay. Ever. Unless you're suggesting the entire course of game 2 was a cleverly devised plan set up by the Reapers to spoon-feed us the technology in that base.

However...

What TIM might do is salvage lil' T-800 and see if he might be able to use it. I could see him doing that.

It will cost no human lives to use this Reaper, the damage was already done and the thing's already built. He might try to find a way to control it. Since it's a larva he might think it may be easier to control.

[Dean_the_Young]

DPSSOC wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
You could replicate the form and tech of a Reaper vessel without having to slurry people.  Example; I find a shoe I like and would like to make a similar shoe myself, it turns out this particular shoe was made with sweatshop labour, do I need to use sweatshop labour to recreate the shoe?

Hmm, Reaper without Reaper juice = lifeless Reaper.
Hmpf, I have no idea, but I am guessing organic races finely blended into smoothies is required as Reaper blood, lymphatic system etc.
I wonder if the separate our pieces before throwing us through the meat grinder? (soz, jokes)

Yes a Reaper without Reaper juice wouldn't be a Reaper, it'd just be a very big, powerful ship.  What I'm proposing is replicate the physical construction compensating for whatever the organic bits provide with conventional tech.  Might not be as powerful as a full Reaper but it's still most likely a step up from what we have.  Keep in mind an entire fleet of conventional warships, focusing all it's firepower, wasn't even able to make a dent in Sovereign until Shepard killed him.

Further food for thought, Sovereign was intended to observe and report on the status of organic life in the galaxy.  He was functionally a scout, so we should consider the possibility that by Reaper standards Sovereign was small.

Alternatively, in order to be equiped for long periods of constant reactivation, self-repair, and action suitable for monitoring as opposed to dark-space hibernation, Sovereign may well have been very big (or at least well equiped).

[DPSSOC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Further food for thought, Sovereign was intended to observe and report on the status of organic life in the galaxy.  He was functionally a scout, so we should consider the possibility that by Reaper standards Sovereign was small.

Alternatively, in order to be equiped for long periods of constant reactivation, self-repair, and action suitable for monitoring as opposed to dark-space hibernation, Sovereign may well have been very big (or at least well equiped).

Admittedly an equally probable possibility, and my thoughts are that Bioware will most likely go with Sovereign being a rather powerful Reaper (being meant to survive millenia without aid) or at the least he was no less powerful than the others.

Still I'm an eternal pessimist and will maintain that Sovereign was a scout, considerably weaker than his kin, and we are all screwed unless we can find the heel of this particular Achilles.  To that end we need either an intact Reaper to study (best we have is the remains of Skeletor) or data on the method and manner of their construction both of which are on the base when it goes boom (though Harbinger data does look promising we don't know about that at the time of decision making).

A thought has just occurred, if we're clearing out the base with a radiation pulse, how long will it take for it to become safe again?  Wouldn't it suck if Bioware made the whole decision pointless by making it that even if you keep the base nobody can safely board so nothing good, or bad, comes of it.  Wouldn't that just be terrible.

[Nightwriter]

adam_grif wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...

A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:

- The mass relays
- Mass Effect field technology
- The citadel
- EDI
- Grunt (via collectors)
- The Thanix Gun

Well, Reaper technology that isn't designed to indoctrinate isn't going to indoctrinate.

And many of those examples can't really be listed, in all fairness.

The Thannix Cannon was based off of Reaper technology but is not in fact Reaper tech itself. Ditto for EDI. Grunt's got some Collector stuff in there, but that can't really qualify as being of Reaper origin either. Mass effect fields are no more of Reaper origin than electricity is of Ben Franklin origin. Mass effect fields are a raw natural force, just like dark matter is a raw natural element. The Reapers just appear to have harnessed it first. 

The point is, you can't use these comparisons to dismiss the danger of the Collector base anymore than you can use examples like the derelict Reaper or the Shu Qian incident to guarantee the danger of the Collector base.

[Azint]

I am not fully comfortable with handing over such technology to a reputed terrorist organization, especially after hearing the plans set for it.

[BurningArmor]

I almost consider it a moot point whether or not to save the Collector Base.  After all, EDI downloaded a full set of schematics (and perhaps blue prints) of the base and the cruiser.  I'm sure Cerberus analysts will spend quite a bit of time going through them as Tim builds his own copy.  Yes I destroyed the Collector Base too.

My distrust of Tim in the pinch still leaves me thinking I only slowed him down.

I think my biggest concern about this base surviving was indoctrination and other booby traps. 

Add to that Tim does not have the resources to hold it even if he did get it.  Any race out there that wants it bad enough could take it from Cerberus given enough time.  Heaven help anyone there if more Collectors or even Reapers come in to take the place back.  Humanity holding onto it long enough to do something with it would be a stroke of luck.

Granted, the Omega 4 Relay would slow most races down.  Let's face it though, Normandy passed through the Omega 4 Relay, and returned later shot full of holes.  People are going to ask questions. 
Cmdr Shepard, how did you get there and back? 
Cmdr Shepard, what did you find there?
Cmdr Shepard, what did you do there?

It is amazing how far some will go to get a question answered.  People taking Shadow Broker's coin for this kind of info would be a minor worry I think.  Others will be demanding their piece of the prize.

I do think if Shepard is smart about this, he will distribute reports of his actions and the schematics to the Alliance Admiralty and maybe the Council.  Spreading this info around might get more useful results in terms of useable technology, especially if the Council fails to see reason.  Other races should be considered on a case by case basis.

[Sajuro]

adam_grif wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...

A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:
- Grunt (via collectors)

Grunt does indoctrinate, but no one notices because everyone thinks he is awesome anyway.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Sajuro wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...
A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:
- Grunt (via collectors)

Grunt does indoctrinate, but no one notices because everyone thinks he is awesome anyway.

Saj, I never take Grunt to fight.. he's waaayyy down my list..

[The BS Police]

I blow it up because it was the right thing to do. The last thing I needed was a Pro-Human terrorist group with xenophobic supporters to somehow attain dominance with Reaper tech.

[Sajuro]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...
A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:
- Grunt (via collectors)

Grunt does indoctrinate, but no one notices because everyone thinks he is awesome anyway.

Saj, I never take Grunt to fight.. he's waaayyy down my list..

Well then you aren't indoctrinated, now are you?

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Sajuro wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...
A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:
- Grunt (via collectors)

Grunt does indoctrinate, but no one notices because everyone thinks he is awesome anyway.

Saj, I never take Grunt to fight.. he's waaayyy down my list..

Well then you aren't indoctrinated, now are you?

You're right. I like Wrex now but I never took him to fight much either.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

The BS Police wrote...
I blow it up because it was the right thing to do. The last thing I needed was a Pro-Human terrorist group with xenophobic supporters to somehow attain dominance with Reaper tech.

Yer, in a nutshell

[Sajuro]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...
A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:
- Grunt (via collectors)

Grunt does indoctrinate, but no one notices because everyone thinks he is awesome anyway.

Saj, I never take Grunt to fight.. he's waaayyy down my list..

Well then you aren't indoctrinated, now are you?

You're right. I like Wrex now but I never took him to fight much either.

Really I only took Tali and Garrus in the first game

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Sajuro wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...
A. Any previous interaction with Reaper technology has resulted in the indoctrination of the researchers.

Except for:
- Grunt (via collectors)

Grunt does indoctrinate, but no one notices because everyone thinks he is awesome anyway.

Saj, I never take Grunt to fight.. he's waaayyy down my list..

Well then you aren't indoctrinated, now are you?

You're right. I like Wrex now but I never took him to fight much either.

Really I only took Tali and Garrus in the first game

I took only Liara and Ash (Garrus on occassions and Tali sometimes to mix it up)

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 11 juin 2010 - 03:08 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

double post

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 11 juin 2010 - 03:07 .

[StodgyFrost98]

The BS Police wrote...

I blow it up because it was the right thing to do. The last thing I needed was a Pro-Human terrorist group with xenophobic supporters to somehow attain dominance with Reaper tech.

You made a good choice.  I see if you preserve the Collector Base it will go in two directions.  In ME3 if you preserve the base the Illusive Man and Cerberus will tamper with the technology and become servants of Harbinger and are another potential enemy to Shepard and the galaxy.  Number Two the Illusive Man cooperates with you, uses the technology  to correctly take down the Reapers and obtains power, and you become the new head of the fascist council.

[StodgyFrost98]

GETH1183 wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since various elements of Reaper technology are demonstratively reproducible without reaper smoothie materials, there's no point in investing in a whole new Reaper in the first place when you can selectively take the parts you want and apply them to the existing space ships we have. Things like weapons, engines, shields, AI warfare. Even our own Mass Relay technology, since the Protheans proved you could go down that path without smoothie materials.

I know the Thannix Cannon came from Sovereign and that apparently no "residual indoctrination" eminated from the parts. But that the derelict reaper (millions of years old) did maintain its indoctrinating effect.

I'm assuming that the meat smoothies are required for birthing a Reaper actual. And that Reaper tech per se can be separated away from their various nefarious means of control. I assume some distinction is going to be made about how the "Derelict Reaper" is not an actual "Reaper being" but was persistently under the sway of Reaper control for 30 million years (thus you can call it a Reaper).

Because at the moment, I am unclear whether the big ships are the "actual Reaper beings" or that the Reaper we destroyed at the end of ME2 will grow into something as big as a 2km ship like Sovereign (if that's true then where was all the Prothean protein paste/goo when Sovereign went down?? lol)

Another theory is that the indoctrination effect is caused by the Reaper's Mass Effect Core not the technology around it. Also I believe that the squid shaped form of the other Reapers is merely their 'evolved' state that allows interstellar flight or a shell that protect the true Reaper form. EDI confirms a Prothean Reaper was not created due to their unusable genetics. It is likely that the Reapers foresaw unusable species and created the 'helpers', this time called the Collectors, from them.

Interesting so maybe if you preserve the base then the Illusive Man will possibly give other species the weapons and armor to tackle the reapers.

[StodgyFrost98]

BurningArmor wrote...

I almost consider it a moot point whether or not to save the Collector Base.  After all, EDI downloaded a full set of schematics (and perhaps blue prints) of the base and the cruiser.  I'm sure Cerberus analysts will spend quite a bit of time going through them as Tim builds his own copy.  Yes I destroyed the Collector Base too.

My distrust of Tim in the pinch still leaves me thinking I only slowed him down.

I think my biggest concern about this base surviving was indoctrination and other booby traps. 

Add to that Tim does not have the resources to hold it even if he did get it.  Any race out there that wants it bad enough could take it from Cerberus given enough time.  Heaven help anyone there if more Collectors or even Reapers come in to take the place back.  Humanity holding onto it long enough to do something with it would be a stroke of luck.

Granted, the Omega 4 Relay would slow most races down.  Let's face it though, Normandy passed through the Omega 4 Relay, and returned later shot full of holes.  People are going to ask questions. 
Cmdr Shepard, how did you get there and back? 
Cmdr Shepard, what did you find there?
Cmdr Shepard, what did you do there?

It is amazing how far some will go to get a question answered.  People taking Shadow Broker's coin for this kind of info would be a minor worry I think.  Others will be demanding their piece of the prize.

I do think if Shepard is smart about this, he will distribute reports of his actions and the schematics to the Alliance Admiralty and maybe the Council.  Spreading this info around might get more useful results in terms of useable technology, especially if the Council fails to see reason.  Other races should be considered on a case by case basis.

Well if you obviously took down their main base, so the collectors are scrambled like the geth.  One thing I know isthat Reporter from ME1 and ME2 is going to ask in ME3 about what Shepard found in the base, what he did, and how he got there and back.  If the oppurtunity presents itself I will shoot her in the foot because she's so annoying.
I also believe if you preserve the base Cerberus will guard it with all the power and money they have, not letting any race through, even the Alliance.  Believe me they have the money to keep other species back especially since they were able to put Shepard piece by piece.

[StodgyFrost98]

Beholderess wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well giving it to anyone else is not an option since its in the Terminus and Cerberus are the only ones with Tech to reach the Collector base

Hmm, as far as I understand, the only tech needed to reach the base is an IFF. Which is, currently, on Normandy. So, whoever it is given to could reach the base, and those who don't have IFF - can't.

Well your wrong Onyx Jaguar, they can still reach the base without the IFF, they just won't get their safely.

[StodgyFrost98]

[quote]Beholderess wrote...

[quote]Onyx Jaguar wrote...

[quote]Beholderess wrote...

[quote]Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well giving it to anyone else is not an option since its in the Terminus and Cerberus are the only ones with Tech to reach the Collector base[/quote]

Hmm, as far as I understand, the only tech needed to reach the base is an IFF. Which is, currently, on Normandy. So, whoever it is given to could reach the base, and those who don't have IFF - can't.

[/quote]

If you see the ending where Shepard dies, Cerberus have already launched ships to that location.  Which would make it seem like they already had the IFF and that the one you picked up was the prototype. 

[/quote]

But Joker returns to TIM with Normandy in that ending. So, of course they are able to launch ships after that. However, if Normandy was not returned in the first place - I'm not so certain.

[/quote

I would be really mad in ME3 if the council still doesn't believe the collectors and the Reapers are real even though you chose the ending where Shepard and his entire crew dies.

Joker testifies to the council that Reapers are Real.

Joker: But they're real

Council:No you need a vacation

Joker:But Shepard and the entire crew are dead!!!

Council: Then go to Hawaii or something

Joker:Watch when the Reapers actually come you'll all be dead!

Council:Ha! We have the fleet to protect us!

Reapers take down fleet in a couple of seconds

Council: OMG!!! Shepard was right!!! RUN!

That's how stupid the Council would be in ME3 if they still didn't believe the Reapers were real even if Shepard was dead.

Modifié par StodgyFrost98, 11 juin 2010 - 04:54 .