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[Dean_the_Young]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Yeah, I think I defined this as "pointless semantic bickering" a couple hours ago. Nobody watching?

Basically, for as long as JohnnyBeGood2 refuses to swap out the highly contentious "technology" for "materials" or "equipment" and Dean_the_Young refuses to understand the common usage staring him in the face for the sake of e-peen, this isn't going anywhere.

Technology by common usage is already established: technology by lazy innacurate usage is not valid.

You called yourself a linguist. If I went around and got a number of people calling a rectangular brick a square, would it suddenly become a square?

What? No I didn't. I called you one. More specifically, a prescriptivist - holding that a word has a single meaning and no amount of its use in communication can change that, regardless of prevalence.
I disagree, and indeed much of the field backs the communicative approach - exemplis gratis, xerox is a valid verb meaning "create a photocopy of" because when you say it in context a native speaker of the language will understand your meaning.

You are being faced in this discussion with someone using "technology" to mean "technological devices". Rather than take a half-step towards successful communication by choosing to understand their intent, clarifying the difference, and moving on to address their points, your response has been to cross your arms and decry the form of their argument rather than its function. Here are two possible scripts for this whole thing.

"Reaper technology is an indoctrination risk."
"No it isn't, technology can't be. Let's discuss your innaccuracy of word usage for three pages."

"Reaper technology is an indoctrination risk."
"No it isn't, technology can't be. Reaper devices might be, however."

Which of these two seems more like communication and which seems more like point-scoring?

When someone claims that all Reaper technology indoctrinates, both are important points, especially if someone then argues that all of a type of technology is inherently anything.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
Lol, personaly, no I don't cos TIM can't be trsuted.
[/quote]
In what way can't he be trusted? [/quote]
Can he not be trusted to acquire the tech due to base defenses, mitigating the threat of him abusing it's technologies?

[quote]Can he not be trusted to not make Reapers despite a lack of ability and reason to?[/quote]
Both of these - "lack of ability" and "reason to" I assume you are positioned on. Tenanted here is absolutely any questions regarding both TIMs regard, proclivity and sanctity of ALL explicitly non-aggressive Citadel and non Citadel races. Further his mode of morality in regard to reasoning... there are many unknowns.
[quote]Can he not be trusted to oppose the Reapers with the tech, dooming humanity to a weaker position against the Reapers?[/quote] Can he be trusted to be equitable with the Tech for all Citadel races, no. Is that an issue in the fight against the Reapers. It will be an either subtle or not so subtle negative in the fight.

[quote]Can he not be trusted to not take over and declare himself god-king of humanity, despite having such an established history of letting others rule while he acts from the shadows? [/quote] A thorough unknown given he has not previously be exposed to circumstances which have "allowed" him beyond the shadows.

[quote]Can he not be trusted to not commit genocide of the aliens, despite never professing a desire or intention to?
[/quote] Throrough unknown. Strong disposition towards human utilitarianism. Stated and professed care of other races a necessary before making a decision.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Can he not be trusted to not make Reapers despite a lack of ability and reason to?[/quote]
Both of these - "lack of ability" and "reason to" I assume you are positioned on. Tenanted here is absolutely any questions regarding both TIMs regard, proclivity and sanctity of ALL explicitly non-aggressive Citadel and non Citadel races. Further his mode of morality in regard to reasoning... there are many unknowns.[/quote]Morality and sanctity have nothing to do with it. Cerberus lacks the ability to abduct the numbers of any race necessary to build a Reaper: Cerberus just doesn't have the ships or people for it. Cerberus also lacks the reason to, because there are much better, much more effective uses for Reaper technology than building an actual reaper with the smoothie process: simply reverse engineering Reaper-tech weapons, shields, and engines and putting them on conventional ships, for example.

[quote]
[quote]Can he not be trusted to oppose the Reapers with the tech, dooming humanity to a weaker position against the Reapers?[/quote] Can he be trusted to be equitable with the Tech for all Citadel races, no. Is that an issue in the fight against the Reapers. It will be an either subtle or not so subtle negative in the fight.[/quote]That's an entirely separate question to what I asked.

A non-equitable distribution of the tech doesn't harm the galaxy's ability to fight: the natural order of things, after all, would be that no one has any of the tech. Even if one faction has the tech, that still boosts the overall chances of everyone to fight and win..

[quote]
[quote]Can he not be trusted to not take over and declare himself god-king of humanity, despite having such an established history of letting others rule while he acts from the shadows? [/quote] A thorough unknown given he has not previously be exposed to circumstances which have "allowed" him beyond the shadows.[/quote]Sure he has. TIM has the control of a number of very rich corporations. He has connections with the highest levels of the Alliance. He could easily be a political figure if he so desired: chairman of a company, political leader, politician. But he's chosen not to.

[quote]
[quote]Can he not be trusted to not commit genocide of the aliens, despite never professing a desire or intention to?
[/quote] Throrough unknown. Strong disposition towards human utilitarianism. Stated and professed care of other races a necessary before making a decision.
[/quote][/quote]One one hand, we have even TIM and Miranda agreeing that having Humanity accepted by the Galaxy (Paragon ME1 decision) is one of the best things possible for Humanity, signalling an acceptence, even desire, for good relations in regards to other races. We also have such things as TIM's self-admitted view that while the mission/human interests come first, diplomacy and working with aliens is great as long as it succedes. So at least two approvals, if not priorities, of living with the Aliens.

On the other hand, in favor of alien genocide, we have...

[Siegdrifa]

In my case (paragon) :

Great power inspire other when the ones using it have good intention and wisdome.
Great power in wrong hands rise the anger / hate of other.

As a genuin and partial paragon, i would use it in good use, but it won't be in my hands.
Do i belive others to use it well? NOOO because from my experience i know most of others people (NPC) are not as wise as my Shepard.

So better be destroyed by a wise mind than used by a wicked one because there is more selfish people with closed mind.

And IMO it's better to deal with a problem knowing the problem than making a "awsome ****ing big solution" for a problem we are not aware yet.
Plus, it's a video game so i'm 100% confidente that there will be a solution in ME3 without that

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 11 juin 2010 - 03:21 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

A non-equitable distribution of the tech doesn't harm the galaxy's ability to fight: the natural order of things, after all, would be that no one has any of the tech. Even if one faction has the tech, that still boosts the overall chances of everyone to fight and win..

I'll assert a more is better philosophy in this regard, 1 race with the tech = better chances, more races with the tech = even better chances in purely tactical terms.

Any intransigence on TIM's part in this regard can safely be the basis for asserting that he doesnt want the best chances for the galaxy and therefore that he may be misguided about his intentions and what he even thinks his intentions are - the result revealing subtle motivations that will actually damage the galaxy.

After all if you say you wish to preseve and advance humanity at any cost but you withhold arms that will offer humanity (And everyone else) better odds then you are in fact not aiming to preserve and advance humanity at any cost but doing so only if you get to be No.1. (which is pretty close to TIM) which mean sthat the cost is too high to preseve humanity and that you actually don't really want to do it  (not what we want)

If he in anyway witholds tech or even hesitates on the distribution of tech he gimps humanity... and we don't need a crisis of faith and heart from him when things get think and fast. That would be a tactical risk - significant enough and I suspect him guilty of being a tactical risk and a throughly substandard commander and cheif (definitely unproven aswell)

[Christmas Ape]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Yeah, I think I defined this as "pointless semantic bickering" a couple hours ago. Nobody watching?

Basically, for as long as JohnnyBeGood2 refuses to swap out the highly contentious "technology" for "materials" or "equipment" and Dean_the_Young refuses to understand the common usage staring him in the face for the sake of e-peen, this isn't going anywhere.

Technology by common usage is already established: technology by lazy innacurate usage is not valid.

You called yourself a linguist. If I went around and got a number of people calling a rectangular brick a square, would it suddenly become a square?

What? No I didn't. I called you one. More specifically, a prescriptivist - holding that a word has a single meaning and no amount of its use in communication can change that, regardless of prevalence.
I disagree, and indeed much of the field backs the communicative approach - exemplis gratis, xerox is a valid verb meaning "create a photocopy of" because when you say it in context a native speaker of the language will understand your meaning.

You are being faced in this discussion with someone using "technology" to mean "technological devices". Rather than take a half-step towards successful communication by choosing to understand their intent, clarifying the difference, and moving on to address their points, your response has been to cross your arms and decry the form of their argument rather than its function. Here are two possible scripts for this whole thing.

"Reaper technology is an indoctrination risk."
"No it isn't, technology can't be. Let's discuss your innaccuracy of word usage for three pages."

"Reaper technology is an indoctrination risk."
"No it isn't, technology can't be. Reaper devices might be, however."

Which of these two seems more like communication and which seems more like point-scoring?

When someone claims that all Reaper technology indoctrinates, both are important points, especially if someone then argues that all of a type of technology is inherently anything.

So in response to my spelling out the quibbling semantics over a single word...you quibble about the semantics of that word.
Apologies. I thought you were full of yourself, but you're merely intolerable. Good day.

[Duckadillo]

The reaper base was made to do one thing, build reapers. No matter who controls the base be it the collectors, cerberus, or anyone else the end result is the same. That being that whomever controls the base will build a reaper and well... a reaper is as a reaper does. I don't see any reason not to destroy it.

[Fiannawolf]

I destroy it mainly because TIM is an idiot and his "organization" continually wants me to bail them out of cluster fs of thier own making. Plus I just plain hate them and want to go back to the Alliance and have a beer with Kai/Ash.

Modifié par Fiannawolf, 11 juin 2010 - 03:50 .

[HopHazzard]

Three main reasons.



1. I don't trust the Illusive Man, and Cerberus's track record when it comes to experimenting with alien technology they don't understand is abysmal.



2. If a multi-million year old derelict reaper can indoctrinate and huskify a Cerberus science team there's no telling what a fully functional collector base could do to them. The potential risk is too great.



3. I remember my talk with Sovreign about how they left technology for us to find so we would proceed down the paths that would be most useful for them. And I remember my talk with Legion about the importance of self-determination and creating your own future. If we're going to beat the reapers we need to start thinking outside the box, and stop relying on the things they left behind for us to use.

[inversevideo]

Well, reminds me of 'Farscape: Wolf in Sheeps Clothing'
The condensced version:
Crighton can side with Scorpius, supplying him with wormhole technology to use as a weapon to stop the imminent Scarran take over of the galaxy, but Scorpius is totally ruthless. Crighton opts for destroying the knowledge of wormhole tech. Scorpius tells Crighton that millions of sentients will remember his name, as the one who could have stopped the Scarrans, but did not.

Crighton replies 'I'm doing the best I can do, by destroying one evil at a time'

Modifié par inversevideo, 11 juin 2010 - 04:04 .

[Vaenier]

inversevideo wrote...

Well, reminds me of 'Farscape: Wolf in Sheeps Clothing'
The condensced version:
Crighton can side with Scorpius, supplying him with wormhole technology to use as a weapon to stop the imminent Scarran take over of the galaxy, but Scorpius is totally ruthless. Crighton opts for destroying the knowledge of wormhole tech. Scorpius tells Crighton that millions of sentients will remember his name, as the one who could have stopped the Scarrans, but did not.

Crighton replies 'I'm doing the best I can do, by destroying one evil at a time'

Couldnt it be argued to give the tech to the other bad guy, thus killing the even bigger evil? the same quote at the end fits both senarios.

[inversevideo]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

If he in anyway witholds tech or even hesitates on the distribution of tech he gimps humanity... and we don't need a crisis of faith and heart from him when things get think and fast. That would be a tactical risk - significant enough and I suspect him guilty of being a tactical risk and a throughly substandard commander and cheif (definitely unproven aswell)

So your solution is to make sure nobody gets the tech, which leaves everyone worse off than if humanity had gotten it.

Brilliant.

Absolutely correct.

That technology is tainted. 

It is certainly beyond our understanding, an AI like EDI is devoting much of her processing power to just try and make use of the reaper tech at her disposal.

Sovereign already told you, the tech is poisoned. To paraphrase Sovereign - 'you use our technology and develop along the path we have laid out'.

Reaper tech is designed to enslave other sentients. There is no reason to assume that humanity would be able to understand much of the technology, let alone know what pitfalls, lie in using such technology; technology that is millions of years in advance of anything in the galaxy, save the relays. And no one understands those relays, they just use them.

And then there is the Illusive Man.
TIM is totally ruthless.  Do you honsetly believe that TIM would not enslave humanity, along with the rest of the galaxy, for their own good?  'Advancement for Cerberus is advancement for humantiy'. So TIM would ensure that humanity 'toe the line', drink the Cerberus koolaid.

There has to be a better way, to stop the Reapers, than giving Cerberus control of tech that could enslave everyone.

[inversevideo]

Vaenier wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

Well, reminds me of 'Farscape: Wolf in Sheeps Clothing'
The condensced version:
Crighton can side with Scorpius, supplying him with wormhole technology to use as a weapon to stop the imminent Scarran take over of the galaxy, but Scorpius is totally ruthless. Crighton opts for destroying the knowledge of wormhole tech. Scorpius tells Crighton that millions of sentients will remember his name, as the one who could have stopped the Scarrans, but did not.

Crighton replies 'I'm doing the best I can do, by destroying one evil at a time'

Couldnt it be argued to give the tech to the other bad guy, thus killing the even bigger evil? the same quote at the end fits both senarios.

TIM is totally ruthless.

Giving him tech that is millions of years beyond his understanding, and expecting him not to try and use it to further his own agenda, with no regard for any possible negative consequences of using said tech, is beyone irrresponsible.  TIM would have no problem, crushing the Alliance, dominating humanity, or subborning them to Cerberus' world view, and then proceed to crush the other races, into submission.

And what of humanity?

The galaxy united against the Rachni and Krogan, and almost brought each species to the brink of extiction.
The Rachni were extinct, for all practical purposes, until the derelict ship with the queen was found.

I have no doubt the galaxy would unite against humanity, as well, if TIM got his hands on that base, and started to exert influence in the galaxy.   There has to be a better way than throwing in with Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Christmas Ape wrote...

So in response to my spelling out the quibbling semantics over a single word...you quibble about the semantics of that word.
Apologies. I thought you were full of yourself, but you're merely intolerable. Good day.

Tell me, which is more mature: someone who doesn't fall into your wordplay, or someone who storms off in a fit while claiming the last word?

[Dean_the_Young]

inversevideo wrote...
It is certainly beyond our understanding, an AI like EDI is devoting much of her processing power to just try and make use of the reaper tech at her disposal.

This argues against the history and lore of the game. The analogy used for the advancement of the Collector Base is the Prothean tech found on mars, two hundred years in advance of human technology at the time, but humanity reverse engineered much of that tech in a matter of years, with real advances in a matter of months. On what grounds do you claim Reaper technology is certainly beyond deciphering, when EDI was able to hack the Collector Ship and Base, both vessels of Reaper technology, in real time?

Sovereign already told you, the tech is poisoned. To paraphrase Sovereign - 'you use our technology and develop along the path we have laid out'.

That's not poisoning, that was a trap. A trap which we broke free of long ago: the Collector Base was never intended to fall into the hands of organics, or for Sovereign to be defeated.

Reaper tech is designed to enslave other sentients. There is no reason to assume that humanity would be able to understand much of the technology, let alone know what pitfalls, lie in using such technology; technology that is millions of years in advance of anything in the galaxy, save the relays. And no one understands those relays, they just use them.

Only one aspect of Reaper tech is designed to enslave other sentients: indoctrination. The rest is highly utilitarian, much of which we use freely already in far more primitive forms: mass effect fields, drive cores, the mass relays, weapons and shielding, even genetic engineering. Mass Relays aren't beyond the capability of understanding so much as the species don't see a point in doing so: the Protheans, who were more or less equivalent with the galactic standard, did invest in the research and made the Conduit.

And then there is the Illusive Man.
TIM is totally ruthless.  Do you honsetly believe that TIM would not enslave humanity, along with the rest of the galaxy, for their own good?  'Advancement for Cerberus is advancement for humantiy'. So TIM would ensure that humanity 'toe the line', drink the Cerberus koolaid.

When has TIM or Cerberus ever given indication of wanting to enslave anyone sentient? TIM has been a hands-off manager for Cerberus, his own personal feifdom, let alone with most of the rest of the galaxy.

'Ruthless' does not translate to 'megalomiacal slaver' by any definition of the word.

There has to be a better way, to stop the Reapers, than giving Cerberus control of tech that could enslave everyone.

What proof do you have?

[Dean_the_Young]

inversevideo wrote...

TIM is totally ruthless.

Giving him tech that is millions of years beyond his understanding, and expecting him not to try and use it to further his own agenda, with no regard for any possible negative consequences of using said tech, is beyone irrresponsible.  TIM would have no problem, crushing the Alliance, dominating humanity, or subborning them to Cerberus' world view, and then proceed to crush the other races, into submission.

Since TIM does none of that with his own people, tolerativing a diversity of views inside Cerberus, and since TIM has helped the Alliance and had a working relationship for some time, and since TIM's active conflicts with other alien groups has been minor and nothing of the nature you propose, where on Earth do you get the conviction that he will do all the things he doesn't do on a smaller scale on a greater scale?

And what of humanity?

The galaxy united against the Rachni and Krogan, and almost brought each species to the brink of extiction.
The Rachni were extinct, for all practical purposes, until the derelict ship with the queen was found.

I have no doubt the galaxy would unite against humanity, as well, if TIM got his hands on that base, and started to exert influence in the galaxy.   There has to be a better way than throwing in with Cerberus.

That's... mindblowingly wishful thinking.

'Oh, humanity is powerful, we must destroy it!' What sort of racist tripe is that? Aliens aren't barbaric morons. They don't even do that if Humans seize the Citadel and the Council.

[inversevideo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There is no distinction. The definition of technology is that it is the means and processes to do something: differences of size, materials, composition do not change it. 'Based on' is the same as 'is' when dealing with technology, because if you base something on a technology you are using that technology.

Again, I'll give you the opportunity explain how the Thannix cannon is not Reaper technology without redefining what technology even is.

Depends on what the definition of 'is' is, does it not?

I can base a pellet gun on an MP5.
It can look like an MP5, it can fire a projectile, like an MP5.
You can make the point that you are using firearm technology, in basing your pellet gun on the MP5.

But if you are dropped into some hostile firezone, which would you rather have?
The pellet gun, based on the MP5? Or an actual MP5?

It comes down to a matter of trust right?
You say that Cerberus, and TIM are 'jake' and mean no one any harm.

Some of us believe that TIM is ruthless, defined as doing whatever it takes, like setting us up to go to the Collector ship, when he knew it was a trap.  That Cerberus has conducted horrific experiments, involving thresher maws (ask Toombs), or torturing Jack, to make a better biotic. You say he is just a kindly CEO, who looks after his people, so we have to assume that when Jack was being tortured or when the maw got ahold of the marines on akuze, TIM had his listening devices turned off that day.  

Cerberus' human positive agenda, which they seem to want to push forward by any means necesary, is only going to lead to humans being at war with the galaxy. We will be treated the way the Rachni were, or the Krogan.
Especially if we got ahold of that Collector base.

Not that Shepard might live long enough to know.
Logic says that once TIM gets ahold of the Collector base, the Normandy and her crew are loose ends.
TIM cannot afford to let anyone know he has that technology, lest the Council or Alliance preemptively strike out at him, before he is ready to study and deploy it.   You know the Salaraian philosophy for dealing with problems, while they are small. And you know the Turian Hierarchy will respond with force. 

These issues pale with the prospect of an organization, like Cerberus, getting ahold of Reaper technology.

But basically, it comes down to this, you chose to trust TIM and I don't

Modifié par inversevideo, 11 juin 2010 - 07:52 .

[Kenrae]

inversevideo wrote...
Absolutely correct.

That technology is tainted. 

No technology is "tainted". That's assigning a religious trait to technology, it's nonsense.

It is certainly beyond our understanding, an AI like EDI is devoting much of her processing power to just try and make use of the reaper tech at her disposal.

AI made by us... with Reaper tech, btw. So we're effectively making use of it, using another tool made by us (tech) to better take advantage of it.

Sovereign already told you, the tech is poisoned. To paraphrase Sovereign - 'you use our technology and develop along the path we have laid out'.

We're already  walking outside that path. The problem is using their technology, concretely the Citadel and the relays, without understanding or replicating them. But we dodged them on ME1 thanks to some help from the Precursors (sorry, Protheans ). Understanding their technology is precisely what they don't want us to do.

Reaper tech is designed to enslave other sentients.

No. Reapers themselves have the capacity to enslave other sentients, and can build something that can be used to enslave other sentients. A Reaper gun isn't designed to enslave anyone, it's designed to kill you.

And then there is the Illusive Man.
TIM is totally ruthless.  Do you honsetly believe that TIM would not enslave humanity, along with the rest of the galaxy, for their own good?  'Advancement for Cerberus is advancement for humantiy'. So TIM would ensure that humanity 'toe the line', drink the Cerberus koolaid.

With that, I can agree. That's the reason I destroy the base most of the time.

[inversevideo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

TIM is totally ruthless.

Giving him tech that is millions of years beyond his understanding, and expecting him not to try and use it to further his own agenda, with no regard for any possible negative consequences of using said tech, is beyone irrresponsible.  TIM would have no problem, crushing the Alliance, dominating humanity, or subborning them to Cerberus' world view, and then proceed to crush the other races, into submission.

Since TIM does none of that with his own people, tolerativing a diversity of views inside Cerberus, and since TIM has helped the Alliance and had a working relationship for some time, and since TIM's active conflicts with other alien groups has been minor and nothing of the nature you propose, where on Earth do you get the conviction that he will do all the things he doesn't do on a smaller scale on a greater scale?

And what of humanity?

The galaxy united against the Rachni and Krogan, and almost brought each species to the brink of extiction.
The Rachni were extinct, for all practical purposes, until the derelict ship with the queen was found.

I have no doubt the galaxy would unite against humanity, as well, if TIM got his hands on that base, and started to exert influence in the galaxy.   There has to be a better way than throwing in with Cerberus.

That's... mindblowingly wishful thinking.

'Oh, humanity is powerful, we must destroy it!' What sort of racist tripe is that? Aliens aren't barbaric morons. They don't even do that if Humans seize the Citadel and the Council.

Walk around the Citadel, talk to Bailey.
Listen, in your travels, to how some aliens refer to humans.
Reflect on how the aliens behaved on Omega, when the plague was set loose.
Aliens were so sure humans created the plague, they would not listen to another explanation.

There is a current of anti-human sentiment going around.
Jorham Tahleed is running for office, on the Citadel, as openly anti-human.

If Cerberus secures the Collector base, and they are successful at 'leap frogging' human weapons systems and ship technology, well beyond what the other races have, then yes, the flames of anti-human sentiment will be fanned, fear will take hold, there will be war.

TIM said it himself "The technology in that base could have assured human dominance over the galaxy and beyond" .  Exactly what does 'beyond' mean? Human dominance over the galaxy?  How would TIM go about securing 'human dominance' ?  Harsh language?  Or maybe through military superiority, gained by the technology taken from the Collector base? And if the other races did not roll over quietly for the Krogan, why would they do so for humanity?  

[inversevideo]

Kenrae wrote...

inversevideo wrote...
Absolutely correct.

That technology is tainted. 

No technology is "tainted". That's assigning a religious trait to technology, it's nonsense.

It is certainly beyond our understanding, an AI like EDI is devoting much of her processing power to just try and make use of the reaper tech at her disposal.

AI made by us... with Reaper tech, btw. So we're effectively making use of it, using another tool made by us (tech) to better take advantage of it.

Sovereign already told you, the tech is poisoned. To paraphrase Sovereign - 'you use our technology and develop along the path we have laid out'.

We're already  walking outside that path. The problem is using their technology, concretely the Citadel and the relays, without understanding or replicating them. But we dodged them on ME1 thanks to some help from the Precursors (sorry, Protheans ). Understanding their technology is precisely what they don't want us to do.

Reaper tech is designed to enslave other sentients.

No. Reapers themselves have the capacity to enslave other sentients, and can build something that can be used to enslave other sentients. A Reaper gun isn't designed to enslave anyone, it's designed to kill you.

And then there is the Illusive Man.
TIM is totally ruthless.  Do you honsetly believe that TIM would not enslave humanity, along with the rest of the galaxy, for their own good?  'Advancement for Cerberus is advancement for humantiy'. So TIM would ensure that humanity 'toe the line', drink the Cerberus koolaid.

With that, I can agree. That's the reason I destroy the base most of the time.

Tainted Tech:
Yes, the technology is tainted. You are projecting religion into the conversation.
Sovereign already told you that Reaper technology is designed to lead our civilization to develop along certain paths.  Since the Collectors are repurposed Protheans, and pretty much subserviant , if not mindless drones, the technology is Reaper.  Using technology millions of years beyond your understanding, you risk falling victim to whatever pitfalls the designers built into that technology, up to and including indoctrination.

Technology Shaping Culture:
I'm not so sure we are walking outside of 'the path' laid down by the reapers.
You start using the tech, left behind by others, and it becomes part of your eveyday life.
Things like how a lift works, or how a door opens, how certain circuits are designed, and how you adapt your culture around using those things.  I would say the jury is out.

Reaper Tech:
Again, jury is out. But my sense is that the tech is in fact designed to effect indoctrination.
Whether it be a gun, a ship, or a computer.  It would seem to make sense that as you use these items, they go to work on you.   But I'm willing to admit the possibility that indoctrination could be restricted to the reapers themselves.  Just seems limiting though. As a reaper, you would have to find a way to bring a population inside you to indoctrinate them.  Whereas you could just ensure that all of your technology is designed to assist in the process of indoctrination.  I guess we will see.

[inversevideo]

Shandepared wrote...

inversevideo wrote...


Depends on what the definition of 'is' is, does it not?

Here I was thinking Bill Clinton was too important to waste his time playing video games.

LOL!

I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that.

[Kenrae]

inversevideo wrote...
Tainted Tech:
Yes, the technology is tainted. You are projecting religion into the conversation.
Sovereign already told you that Reaper technology is designed to lead our civilization to develop along certain paths.  Since the Collectors are repurposed Protheans, and pretty much subserviant , if not mindless drones, the technology is Reaper.  Using technology millions of years beyond your understanding, you risk falling victim to whatever pitfalls the designers built into that technology, up to and including indoctrination.

Technology Shaping Culture:
I'm not so sure we are walking outside of 'the path' laid down by the reapers.
You start using the tech, left behind by others, and it becomes part of your eveyday life.
Things like how a lift works, or how a door opens, how certain circuits are designed, and how you adapt your culture around using those things.  I would say the jury is out.

Technology shapes culture, of course, I'm not discussing that. What I'm saying is that their path was based on us  using relays without understanding or replicating them (so that we visit the systems they want us to visit and don't disperse too much - easy to wipe out this way) and we eventually end using the Citadel as our center of power. The idea is then doing a surprise attack on the Citadel, which is the center of power, cutting access to all relays so that systems become isolated and systematically wiping us out. The surprise attack in the Citadel has been diverted and we're starting to develop a tech level not intended for us thanks to access to Reaper technology due to Sovereign death (Thannix cannons and EDI being an example of that). We can still lose but it won't be as easy for them.

Reaper Tech:
Again, jury is out. But my sense is that the tech is in fact designed to effect indoctrination.
Whether it be a gun, a ship, or a computer.  It would seem to make sense that as you use these items, they go to work on you.   But I'm willing to admit the possibility that indoctrination could be restricted to the reapers themselves.  Just seems limiting though. As a reaper, you would have to find a way to bring a population inside you to indoctrinate them.  Whereas you could just ensure that all of your technology is designed to assist in the process of indoctrination.  I guess we will see.

The Reapers themselves AND whatever tool they design to indoctrinate (like Dragon Teeth). But everything they do? That would be an unlogical waste of resources. And you can count on the Reapers being logical.

[Kenrae]

Shandepared wrote...
Here I was thinking Bill Clinton was too important to waste his time playing video games.

He played them even when he was President: