3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Spectre_907]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

Technology is not a straight line. It is a means to an end. Using another's techonological path leaves one vulnerable to predictability. The reapers can predict the development of any spacefaring organic civilization because it develops along the same technological path of their own. By keeping the Collector's Base, which is based on reaper technology, the reapers will be able to know exactly what you will do with it for it is of their own make and they know their technology well. Developing weapons independent from the reaper technological pathway would be a better strategic advantage.

From an ethical standpoint, using the Collector's base would mean one would be in favor of defeating the enemy at the expense of innocent people for a greater good. Destroying it counters this idea. Note that you have morality but you never seem to agree with any boundless experimention on innocent people (human or alien), something Cerberus is notorious for, and you are persistent with destruction of such research but at the end of ME2, should you decide to keep the Collector base, you are no longer against such ideas, even agreeing with the Illusive Man in using the knowledge to advance humanity. This isn't only in this mission. You also see it in others.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 12 juin 2010 - 08:31 .

[Christianson]

Well I destroyed it because it was being used as a base for a horrible thing. I blew the base up because I wont let fear conrol my moral values. Besides we have the Rachni and possibly the Geth on our side in 3. I wouldnt be surprised if everyone finally realizes the real threat so we may have all the aliens on our side too.

[sweety_petey]

 Honestly? I was bitter that all my money had disappeared, assumed TIM stole it, and set out to ruin him at every possibility.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
If he in anyway witholds tech or even hesitates on the distribution of tech he gimps humanity... and we don't need a crisis of faith and heart from him when things get think and fast. That would be a tactical risk - significant enough and I suspect him guilty of being a tactical risk and a throughly substandard commander and cheif (definitely unproven aswell)

So your solution is to make sure nobody gets the tech, which leaves everyone worse off than if humanity had gotten it.
Brilliant.

1. That was only in regard to one of his questions and only backs up TIM's untrustworthiness.
2. It is possible from what I'm saying (if you read it) that TIM will actually be a liability with the Tech against the Reapers and in fact won't be of assistance in the fight

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Kenrae wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
Here I was thinking Bill Clinton was too important to waste his time playing video games.

He played them even when he was President:

Meh, Im not American but I'd take Clinty over Bushy any century of the millenium...

[Dean_the_Young]

Christianson wrote...

Well I destroyed it because it was being used as a base for a horrible thing. I blew the base up because I wont let fear conrol my moral values. Besides we have the Rachni and possibly the Geth on our side in 3. I wouldnt be surprised if everyone finally realizes the real threat so we may have all the aliens on our side too.

You don't let fear control your values?

So, you had no fear of Cerberus abuse of technology change your belief on how many alien and human lives are worth upholding your personal morals?

[Dean_the_Young]

inversevideo wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

inversevideo wrote...


Depends on what the definition of 'is' is, does it not?

Here I was thinking Bill Clinton was too important to waste his time playing video games.

LOL!

I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that.

I'll admit it killed any desire to have an exchange with you, for what it's worth.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
2. It is possible from what I'm saying (if you read it)...

I read and it is complete ****ing garbage. He wants the human race to survive. If he didn't he wouldn't have brought Shepard back and prevented Miranda from putting a control chip in his head. He gave you free reign of your mission despite the possibility of your Shepard being extremely anti-Cerberus. The technology in that base, even if it isn't directly used, could provide intel on the Reapers.
There is no rational reason to destroy the base. None. It's just fear mongering on your part.
You know what else, JohnnyBeGood2, you know what else is even more probable than TIM being a liability if you save the base? What is far more likely is that not having the base means when the Reapers get here you have no adequate understanding of their capabilities and thus no adequate defenses against their weaponry nor sophisticated weapons to overcome their defensive systems. That is far more likely.
If you save the base you are at least be giving Cerberus, and as a consequence the Systems Alliance, valuable and possibly life-saving intel on the Reapers. Everything from weaknesses to offensive weapons and perhaps even enemy numbers. Even better would be reverse engineering Reaper technologies so that you could narrow the technological gap between us and them.
You are grasping feebly at the first flimsy explanation you can come up with to try and justify blowing up the base.
Smudboy was right. People who blow up the base don't do it for any well thought out tactical reasons they blow it up simply because TIM is a bad guy.
(Or you know, what is certain is that Bioware will invent some convenient mcguffin for you to go after so that you don't totally screw yourself or get millions of people killed because you failed to capitalize on one of your greatest victories over the enemy)

TIM is really a liability. The through-and-through reason for given for not handing the base over to TIM is lack of trust with TIM and unanswered questions regarding Reaper Tech derivatives that no-one particularly wants TIM to solve.

No doubt about it... we've been able to get some tech from the Reapers, looks like the Turians did a good job with getting Sovereigns gun up and running after the Citadel attack... good job.
What has everyone in doubt is whether Cerberus's pissant, unproven, pseudo-xenophobic organisation of human zealots would 1. have the skill to negotiate the boudaries of any indictrination effects or indoctrination associated with the base, whether they be latent or extant (huge issue, nobody believes he'd be able to do it) 2. share the Tech, 3. not create an issue for everyone before the conflict if he doesn't share the Tech,

The issue with TIM is you know he's a player.. but he's a Solo Player, and that's a negative not a plus. What we really want is for the Turians and Salarians (Mordin included) to go in and do the work on the Base.. not TIM, the guys a liability.

He's a liability because he'll faf around and play games and trade the tech up to get Humans on top of the pile after the conflict.... whether you like it or not, by doing that he will compromise the conflict with the Reapers. He'll play bait-and-switch and such like with the Tech and use it as a chess piece for Human benefit... we just don't want a person like that... TIM might be ok when Cerberus can hide in the shadows with a couple hundred people (1000?) but put him on the Galactic Stage and what will he do?

He didn't cope too well (hissy fit) when Shep told him to stuff it at the end... where was Mr Cool then? TIMs a tool.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 12 juin 2010 - 01:19 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Shandepared wrote...
Smudboy was right. People who blow up the base don't do it for any well thought out tactical reasons they blow it up simply because TIM is a bad guy.
(Or you know, what is certain is that Bioware will invent some convenient mcguffin for you to go after so that you don't totally screw yourself or get millions of people killed because you failed to capitalize on one of your greatest victories over the enemy)

And if that's true - why has he not been more diligent in cranking up his PR machine to ensure that his objectives can be achieved are not derailed through sentiment? Shows a startling lack of insight for someone who makes pretense at loottraining the human cause.

What you are missing is how sentiment will and does affect both TIMs ability to deliver and the perception of what he can deliver... he should know that.. or are those costs too high for TIM?

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 12 juin 2010 - 01:32 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

The closest thing to the truth here is that TIMs resurrection of Shepard was as good as it's going to get for Cerberus... that was the best thing they've done and it's probably the only thing of real benefit they'll ever do.

TIM doesn't have the mojo for anything else... easier if he just hands over the Normandy without a fight and heads back to his small time terrorism cos he won't amount to much else.

He's served his purpose.

[Dean_the_Young]

You don't even try, so what's the point in discussing with you?



I mean, it's clear you don't put much stock in anything that disagrees with your presumptions, like the creation of EDI, or pushing for the original Normandy, or even the Normandy 2 and all the background work that went into fighting the Reapers and the Collectors when no one else was, not to mention paying to rebuild Horizon.



None of those are any good at all. Nope, nuhuh. No siree.

[StodgyFrost98]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
Smudboy was right. People who blow up the base don't do it for any well thought out tactical reasons they blow it up simply because TIM is a bad guy.
(Or you know, what is certain is that Bioware will invent some convenient mcguffin for you to go after so that you don't totally screw yourself or get millions of people killed because you failed to capitalize on one of your greatest victories over the enemy)

And if that's true - why has he not been more diligent in cranking up his PR machine to ensure that his objectives can be achieved are not derailed through sentiment? Shows a startling lack of insight for someone who makes pretense at loottraining the human cause.

What you are missing is how sentiment will and does affect both TIMs ability to deliver and the perception of what he can deliver... he should know that.. or are those costs too high for TIM?

It stinks though that you can't preserve the base and give it to intelligent people who will you use it wisely against the battle with the Reapers.  For example, the Salarians(Mordin) and the Turians.

[StodgyFrost98]

snfonseka wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

Because the GAME says it is the PARAGON thing to do...

Many people destroy it since the base is in the hands of the Illusive Man who is a ruthless character and will do whatever it takes to take down the Reapers. 

[Sajuro]

The base obviously isn't top of the line in reaper technology (at least not offensively) since the collector ship was destroyed by the Thanix cannons which were derived from Sovereign's main guns. The Collector's ship by the way, its main weapon is a cannon that has a slow rate of fire for being its only weapon of note. The only built (at least semi built) reaper in the base is the Human Reaper that you aborted (how would you describe it?) and any Reaper blueprints would probably be preserved in the Collector General's brain, like in a graybox and we know how much success hock had at hacking one of those ( and it wasn't reaper tech).

[Yakko77]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

The closest thing to the truth here is that TIMs resurrection of Shepard was as good as it's going to get for Cerberus... that was the best thing they've done and it's probably the only thing of real benefit they'll ever do.
TIM doesn't have the mojo for anything else... easier if he just hands over the Normandy without a fight and heads back to his small time terrorism cos he won't amount to much else.
He's served his purpose.

If there's one thing ME1 gave me it was a very hearty dislike to put it mildly for Cerberus.  Bioware tried to give ME2 a "twist" I guess by having you work for them but Bioware did its job a bit too well in ME1 and my personal mission to burn Cerberus to the ground as I  save the galaxy remains unchanged.

[FROST4584]

Mass Effect 2 writers: Its ok to capture, study, and use Reaper tech to get to the Collector base, it’s not ok to study Reaper Tech when you capture one of their bases.

Modifié par FROST4584, 12 juin 2010 - 05:54 .

[Sildroni]

StodgyFrost98 wrote...
[It stinks though that you can't preserve the base and give it to intelligent people who will you use it wisely against the battle with the Reapers.  For example, the Salarians(Mordin) and the Turians.

What intelligent people?  The council says Reapers don't exist (even tho Anderson keeps telling them that they do (provided he's a councillor))

Thanix Cannon reverse engineered by the Turians from Soverign pieces was only available to you after recruiting Garrus at TIM's suggestion.   Why isn't it part of every fleet's arsenal - politics? some lame balance of power?  Probably.

I was sorely tempted to blow up the base too, but you have to realize that Shepard's Team and Cerberus are the only ones making a stand.  The council didn't help because it was only human colonies being decimated, and the rest of the galaxy was happy to see us get beat on.

TIM needs to step up his game tho - and use the talents of the right people.  Loss of the Reaper derilict for study was a pretty big blow as well - regardless of grabbing the IFF out of it.  Wannabe mad scientists aren't going to cut it for the battles to come.

Modifié par Sildroni, 12 juin 2010 - 05:58 .

[Kenrae]

Sildroni wrote...

StodgyFrost98 wrote...
[It stinks though that you can't preserve the base and give it to intelligent people who will you use it wisely against the battle with the Reapers.  For example, the Salarians(Mordin) and the Turians.

What intelligent people?  The council says Reapers don't exist (even tho Anderson keeps telling them that they do (provided he's a councillor))

That's what they say to you. That doesn't mean that's what they truly believe.

Thanix Cannon reverse engineered by the Turians from Soverign pieces was only available to you after recruiting Garrus at TIM's suggestion.   Why isn't it part of every fleet's arsenal - politics? some lame balance of power?  Probably.

How do you know that? I'm sure it's part of every new Turian ship, and it could be part of every new Alliance ship too (at least if you save the Council on ME1). Most Citadel space warships come from those two species.

[Spectre_907]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

Technology is not a straight line. It is a means to an end. Using another's techonological path leaves one vulnerable to predictability. The reapers can predict the development of any spacefaring organic civilization because it develops along the same technological path of their own. By keeping the Collector's Base, which is based on reaper technology, the reapers will be able to know exactly what you will do with it for it is of their own make and they know their technology well. Developing weapons independent from the reaper technological pathway would be a better strategic advantage.

From an ethical standpoint, using the Collector's base would mean one would be in favor of defeating the enemy at the expense of innocent people for a greater good. Destroying it counters this idea. Note that you have morality but you never seem to agree with any boundless experimention on innocent people (human or alien), something Cerberus is notorious for, and you are persistent with destruction of such research but at the end of ME2, should you decide to keep the Collector base, you are no longer against such ideas, even agreeing with the Illusive Man in using the knowledge to advance humanity. This isn't only in this mission. You also see it in others.

To add: It is not mere improved weaponry or defenses you are acquiring, you are going to use the knowledge and framework of building a reaper against the machines. This is explicitly stated. This leads to the possibility that you will be constructing reapers to fight against reapers. But again, using technology that your enemies know perfectly is just foolhardy. You don't use technology against an enemy that has been developing it for hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of years. All organic species have fallen to the reapers because they developed along the predicted technological paths when they have not fully understood them. If it was simply a means to study how the reapers work and use that to find a weakness, yes, keep the base.

But what the Illusive Man seems to be more interested in is a crude reverse engineering of reaper construction technologies and re-purposing of it as a weapon when he, nor anyone else in the galaxy, fully understands what it is.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
That sounds like a solid reason to give him the base. The survival of our species is at stake; I don't want someone on the front lines who won't to whatever it takes to win. Losing is not an option here.

I don't know, if you fight dirty enough and start using methods similar to what your enemy uses upon you, perhaps you don't really deserve to win.

But deserve has nothing to do with it, dead is dead and that probably sucks more.

I have several different playthroughs, but there is one main one that makes the decisions as I'd want the story to pan out. So while I'd love to tell the turian councilor "ah yes, 'Reapers'" in ME3, that has to go with one of my alternate playthroughs where I let the Council live.

And while I'd love to destroy the Collector Base, my main Shepard wouldn't do that. He might hate the Illusive Man, he might never trust him, he might suspect the Illusive Man will use the research for nefarious means after the Reaper threat, he might feel a little part of his soul has just withered away, but he has to ignore all of that for now. Because defeating the Reapers is the priority.

Of course, after the Reapers are eliminated, Shepard's next battle will likely be against the Illusive Man who just happens to possess the technology that was used against the Reaper threat. As Garrus suggested, Shepard will always have enemies to fight. However, the fight against the Illusive Man is an entirely different battle than the one against the Reapers. It's likely not one of who has greater technology but one of who can out-maneuver the other.

[Cheese Elemental]

Funny how people assume keeping the Collector base is the only possible way to defeat the Reapers. What about a united force including the Geth, restored Krogan, Rachni, etc? The Protheans clearly didn't have a hope in hell of defeating the Reapers as their empire was torn apart from within and it doesn't look like they had much of a military.

The conditions for the Reaper invasion are hardly ideal now. They can't travel through the Citadel, Shepard is running around making friends in high places, and they might not know what kind of technology the races of the galaxy possess (like the Geth, who are clearly capable of rapid technological advancements).

Furthermore, we haven't been told squat about the rest of the Reapers. Are they all as powerful as Sovereign? Was it perhaps a more advanced 'model', designed to survive on its own? Do they have any ground forces at all?



Of course, these points (and the arguments in this thread for both sides) are ultimately moot. BioWare are going to have perfectly reasonable explanations for both base-keepers and base-destroyers defeating the Reapers.

[Pacifien]

Assuming an army of Geth, Krogans, and Rachni is enough to defeat the Reapers is just as much an assumption as believing the Collector base will lead to useful information against the Reapers as well.