3478 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

A paragon ending says I can do both with things the Reapers had nothing to do with.

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

You're saying that out of fear. How about the Rachni, and the fact that they build ships that have nothing to do with leaked reaper tech? How about the Krogan, who are the best ground force you could ever have? How about the Quarions, who build the best shields? How about the Geth, who can hack anything?

What does the base give you? Cerberus Reapers, made by deaths of thousands.

[TMA LIVE]

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

A paragon ending says I can do both with things the Reapers had nothing to do with.

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

I expect the paragon ending to be just as bloody as the renegade. The only difference is, did you leave a bright future, or did you just damn everyone to hell.

[Solenai]

TMA LIVE wrote...

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

A paragon ending says I can do both with things the Reapers had nothing to do with.

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

You're saying that out of fear. How about the Rachni, and the fact that they build ships that have nothing to do with leaked reaper tech? How about the Krogan, who are the best ground force you could ever have? How about the Quarions, who build the best shields? How about the Geth, who can hack anything?

What does the base give you? Cerberus Reapers, made by deaths of thousands.

We don't know the reaper-making tech was all that was in the base. As I said earlier, TIM probably wants to reverse-engineer the reaper/collector tech to see if there's anything to use to upgrade current ships with better defenses and more powerful weapons that can actually damage reapers.

I'm curious about that weapon TIM mentioned right before the IFF mission. He said the team found the weapon itself but it was broken. I wonder if TIM will build try to build a working one of those weapons, whatever it was, upgrade it with collector and reaper tech, and use it against the reapers.

[Nightwriter]

Solenai wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

In the words of Zero from Code Geass,

      "What do you do when you are confronted with an overwhelming evil? Do you remain just even if it means being dominated by evil or do you commit evil to destroy the greater evil? In my case, I commit evil to destroy the greater evil."

Probably didn't get the quote entirely right but I felt it went with the subject. Cerberus is a neccessary evil to fight the reapers. People just don't get it. The reapers will wipe out the entire human race, along with the asari, turians, salarians, batarians, drell, hanar...you get my point, and anything else Cerberus might do with the base and its technology afterwards is a small price to pay for saving all life in the galaxy. Anything that has the chance to help you fight the reapers is a must-have. TIM wouldn't be so stupid as to actually try to make a reaper. That base was HUGE, the reaper-building machines were almost definitely not the only thing there. He probably wants to reverse engineer collector/reaper technology to try and find ways to upgrade the citadel fleets to defend against reaper attacks or research weapons that can pierce reaper shields.

You are over-dramatizing the issue. You and I know very well the Reapers can be defeated the paragon way.

It's not that I don't share the sentiment. I often quote the phrase, "It is wrong to lie, but it is worse to let the wicked triumph at the expense of good sense." However, good sense needs to be applied in other ways, as well.

People never seem to consider that letting TIM have the base might actually make things worse. That's what I kept thinking about. What if his research and sinister projects f*ck up my saving the galaxy?

Forget the danger of new Reapers, if we use technology of direct Reaper origin will our computers begin speaking in a programming language the Reapers know only too well? Or what if some of our people start becoming indoctrinated? That could be the end of us right there, the Reapers could start using people from the inside. What if we incorporate Reaper tech we don't really understand and they use it against us? My mind reels with these things. It may blow up in our faces, and at the worst possible time.

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The same way that within a year of discovering the Martian Ruins, Humanity jumped to FTL travel and interstellar colonization, and how in less than a dozen years Humanity was able to fight evenly against the galaxy's greatest military power.

Because it left for them to find. Same with every race, and every race before man.

The Prothean data cache wasn't simply a 'here's how to do it
all in one two three' hand-out list: infact,
the Reapers method of action (according to Vigil) was to strip
technology as best they could: what we find is
what they missed in their latest sweep. The advances from the Prothean data cache and the speed of their implementation is the point to your question of how any Collector Base data could matter in a scope of years.

And the Reapers know what **** leaked from there base. You think they can't do the same thing?

Uh... that second part makes no sense. They can't do the same thing, as in adapt advanced technology that they themselves already have implemented?

Also, it's Cerberus you're giving it to. Not the Council, or the Alliance. A group run by a guy who calls himself the Illusive Man, who spends most of his time sitting, drinking and smoking, while watching a star die, and commands his people to force change, so his vision of humanity will dominate.

Which makes him worse than not opposing the Reapers with all means available... for some reason that's inherently obvious to you, apparently.

[Dean_the_Young]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Dean, in response to your page 11 non-response, my use of characterizing your logical bind as a catch 22 was quite apt. You have an insatiable need to be a big troll to anyone with an opinion contrary to your weird, extremist POV, yet you lack accurate troll bait needed to troll since your "I make no assumptions" understanding of the protean data cache recovery is in fact, as I've pointed out, ia good-faith assumption in the alliance PR...

I'm not sure whether to be shocked, appaled, or aghast that you're coming back no less than seven pages to angrily reply to a point no one remembers without even the common decency to quote that which you are referring to so that others might understand what your actual point is.


Since I'm not sure, I'll settle for amused.

[Solenai]

Nightwriter wrote...

Solenai wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

In the words of Zero from Code Geass,

      "What do you do when you are confronted with an overwhelming evil? Do you remain just even if it means being dominated by evil or do you commit evil to destroy the greater evil? In my case, I commit evil to destroy the greater evil."

Probably didn't get the quote entirely right but I felt it went with the subject. Cerberus is a neccessary evil to fight the reapers. People just don't get it. The reapers will wipe out the entire human race, along with the asari, turians, salarians, batarians, drell, hanar...you get my point, and anything else Cerberus might do with the base and its technology afterwards is a small price to pay for saving all life in the galaxy. Anything that has the chance to help you fight the reapers is a must-have. TIM wouldn't be so stupid as to actually try to make a reaper. That base was HUGE, the reaper-building machines were almost definitely not the only thing there. He probably wants to reverse engineer collector/reaper technology to try and find ways to upgrade the citadel fleets to defend against reaper attacks or research weapons that can pierce reaper shields.

You are over-dramatizing the issue. You and I know very well the Reapers can be defeated the paragon way.

It's not that I don't share the sentiment. I often quote the phrase, "It is wrong to lie, but it is worse to let the wicked triumph at the expense of good sense." However, good sense needs to be applied in other ways, as well.

People never seem to consider that letting TIM have the base might actually make things worse. That's what I kept thinking about. What if his research and sinister projects f*ck up my saving the galaxy?

Forget the danger of new Reapers, if we use technology of direct Reaper origin will our computers begin speaking in a programming language the Reapers know only too well? Or what if some of our people start becoming indoctrinated? That could be the end of us right there, the Reapers could start using people from the inside. What if we incorporate Reaper tech we don't really understand and they use it against us? My mind reels with these things. It may blow up in our faces, and at the worst possible time.

Reaper tech is used everyday. The citadel was created by the reapers, as were the mass relays and mass effect technology. None of them indoctrinate people. I'm not saying it's not a possibility but the collectors themselves were not controlled by passive indoctrination. Mordin explains that they are controlled through a variety of implants. This could mean that the collector base itself doesn't have the means to indoctrinate and, as stated in the game, they probably didn't count on anyone finding the base, so it's possible the collectors/reapers didn't build the station with the means of indoctrination since they didn't count on anybody ever being there apart from being melted down into reaper fluid.

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...
You're saying that out of fear. How about the Rachni, and the fact that they build ships that have nothing to do with leaked reaper tech?

Nothing suggests that the Rachni are any less developed along Reaper lines and tech paths than the rest of us. The fact that the Rachni were indoctrinated and directly manipulated by the Reapers, however, even suggests they have more Reaper-intended (and, at the very least, Reaper-known) tech than the rest of us.

How about the Krogan, who are the best ground force you could ever have?

Ground forces.

Versus space ship armada.

Who will win?

How about the Quarions, who build the best shields?

Shields generations behind Reaper strength and quality, largely on a mass of numerous but low quality/ancient ships.

How about the Geth, who can hack anything?

And be hacked by anything, let's remember.

What does the base give you? Cerberus Reapers, made by deaths of thousands.

Gee, if only there were a way to replicate Reaper technology and strengths without materials made from the flesh of living souls...

Oh, wait, there is.

So, rather than bother with Reapers, we can just take the Reaper shields, the Reaper engines, the Reaper weapons, the Reaper AI warfare, the Reaper genetic research, and study against Reaper indoctrination...

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

Well, You expect the renegade ending to turn out well^_^

We don't know if reaper weapons are the best way to fight/destroy a reaper.

[StodgyFrost98]

Tempest wrote...

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but to me there is 1 very strong obvious point.    If Normandy 2 was able to be easily hacked from a "basic" FFT program (or whatever it was called, forgot already) that what do you think a full sized base of reaper influenced technology would do to any alien technology?   My fear from using the base was simple.  If I hand this over to ANYONE, it would be like giving a "Come and destroy us again" ticket to the reapers.  Who knows what kind of Reaper based computer viruses they have inside the collector base.

If you want to know what I mean, just look at the movie District 9.
*************************************************Spoiler************************************************************
Just from the main actor just slightly tampering with a foreign object he started to transform.   What do you think will happen if our guys started tampering with Reaper tech who are VERY WELL KNOWN to mess with the minds of mortals?  

Very good reference.  Wikus's demise was due to the fact that he tampered with alien tech without knowing what it was, which eventually led to him being turned into an sprawn at the end of the movie.  So basically no species is safe to use this tech unless its the same race that developed it.

[mosor]

TMA LIVE wrote...

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

A paragon ending says I can do both with things the Reapers had nothing to do with.

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

I expect the paragon ending to be just as bloody as the renegade. The only difference is, did you leave a bright future, or did you just damn everyone to hell.

Why is a renegade playthough not a bright future? Having humanity as top dog is a bright future indeed. It's all about perspective. You believe aliens will all join hands and sing kumbaya when all is said and done. I believe sooner or later aliens will try to shaft us and it's better to be strong and prepared.

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The same way that within a year of discovering the Martian Ruins, Humanity jumped to FTL travel and interstellar colonization, and how in less than a dozen years Humanity was able to fight evenly against the galaxy's greatest military power.

Because it left for them to find. Same with every race, and every race before man.

The Prothean data cache wasn't simply a 'here's how to do it
all in one two three' hand-out list: infact,
the Reapers method of action (according to Vigil) was to strip
technology as best they could: what we find is
what they missed in their latest sweep. The advances from the Prothean data cache and the speed of their implementation is the point to your question of how any Collector Base data could matter in a scope of years.

And the Reapers know what **** leaked from there base. You think they can't do the same thing?

Uh... that second part makes no sense. They can't do the same thing, as in adapt advanced technology that they themselves already have implemented?

Also, it's Cerberus you're giving it to. Not the Council, or the Alliance. A group run by a guy who calls himself the Illusive Man, who spends most of his time sitting, drinking and smoking, while watching a star die, and commands his people to force change, so his vision of humanity will dominate.

Which makes him worse than not opposing the Reapers with all means available... for some reason that's inherently obvious to you, apparently.

1) Again, your advancing because they gave you ****, or gave **** to someone they killed years ago, that's you're now using. They died.

2) If you knew your enemy had your weapon tech, don't you think you can build your own weapon to fight your own tech, because, guess what, you know your tech better then them?

3) He is worse if he makes Reapers that do the same thing. There, you just made the problem you just killed. More killing, more death. Not a gad damn thing changed..

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 12 juin 2010 - 09:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

If we're going to quote selective fiction, for which there is not-quite countless number of sources to refer to support our own argument whatever side it may be, why not start referring to dreams? It would be just as authoritative on the Mass Effect universe.

[StodgyFrost98]

Barquiel wrote...

mosor wrote...

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

Well, You expect the renegade ending to turn out well^_^

We don't know if reaper weapons are the best way to fight/destroy a reaper.

Paragon endings don't always mean a good thing.  In ME3 Shepard possibly could make a heroic sacrifice in order to destroy  Harbinger which could possibly destroy all of the minion reapers.   Shepard pilots Normandy, says goodbye to crew and love interest and heads straight towards the core of Harbinger.

[StodgyFrost98]

Also the collector base has a lot of power in it. In the first Spiderman movie, the uncle of Peter Parker said that with great power comes great responsibility. I believe the Illusive Man doesn't have great responsiblity or nobility.
The first thing that comes in his mind is power and dominance for humanity and cerberus.  If he gains power with the collector base then he doesn't have to worry about the reapers and can kick back and let Shepard do all the hard work.

Modifié par StodgyFrost98, 12 juin 2010 - 09:55 .

[TMA LIVE]

Dean, the Alliance alone blew up one reaper. We are now fighting hundreds. You think we can't board a ship, and blow them up on the inside, or make a virus to blow them all up? Or hack their ships? Do you really think they're that hard to kill, even though we know know about them, and can plan ahead?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 12 juin 2010 - 09:55 .

[TMA LIVE]

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

A paragon ending says I can do both with things the Reapers had nothing to do with.

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

I expect the paragon ending to be just as bloody as the renegade. The only difference is, did you leave a bright future, or did you just damn everyone to hell.

Why is a renegade playthough not a bright future? Having humanity as top dog is a bright future indeed. It's all about perspective. You believe aliens will all join hands and sing kumbaya when all is said and done. I believe sooner or later aliens will try to shaft us and it's better to be strong and prepared.

Oh course not. But I don't plan on killing them, just so I can have a high chair to use to **** all over them.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

mosor wrote...

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

Well, You expect the renegade ending to turn out well^_^

We don't know if reaper weapons are the best way to fight/destroy a reaper.

No. I'm not sure we would get any usable technology from the base. However, you do get plenty of intelligence, which is pretty damn important when fighting an enemy we know little about. If there is useful tech, that is a bonus. However, a pragmatist would save the base would save the base if nothing else but to get information,

[Barquiel]

StodgyFrost98 wrote...


Paragon endings don't always mean a good thing. 

No, but I like my "paragon" universe so far

- no human tyranny
- the rachni queen has promised to send an army to help Shep against the reapers
- Zhu's Hope persists
- Shiala/Shepard flirting:wub:

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If we're going to quote selective fiction, for which there is not-quite countless number of sources to refer to support our own argument whatever side it may be, why not start referring to dreams? It would be just as authoritative on the Mass Effect universe.

So there, everything you and me are saving means bull****, because it's all a game. Nothing matters. All that matters is, did you damn everyone to hell in your game, or am I a hero in mine.

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

No. I'm not sure we would get any usable technology from the base. However, you do get plenty of intelligence, which is pretty damn important when fighting an enemy we know little about.

ParagonShep doesn't return empty-handed. EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers.

[Nightwriter]

Solenai wrote...

Reaper tech is used everyday. The citadel was created by the reapers, as were the mass relays and mass effect technology. None of them indoctrinate people. I'm not saying it's not a possibility but the collectors themselves were not controlled by passive indoctrination. Mordin explains that they are controlled through a variety of implants. This could mean that the collector base itself doesn't have the means to indoctrinate and, as stated in the game, they probably didn't count on anyone finding the base, so it's possible the collectors/reapers didn't build the station with the means of indoctrination since they didn't count on anybody ever being there apart from being melted down into reaper fluid.

But we mustn't rely upon this argument. Just because some Reaper technology is benign doesn't mean this Reaper technology is benign. I'm not trying to say all Reaper tech is dangerous, just that this tech has a higher probability of being dangerous than the Citadel or the relays.

This may be a Collector base, but they built and housed an actual Reaper here. The Citadel and mass relays may be all right, but it's a fact that any time anyone has ever been directly exposed to any part of an actual Reaper, they have been indoctrinated.

Now we've got a base that's actually been making Reapers.  We don't know the dangers. It's like a military station that's been building a radioactive weapon - if it was building something radioactive, chances are there might be radioactive parts lying around. Chances are the station is dangerous, as well.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

StodgyFrost98 wrote...


Paragon endings don't always mean a good thing. 

No, but I like my "paragon" universe so far

- no human tyranny
- the rachni queen has promised to send an army to help Shep against the reapers
- Zhu's Hope persists
- Shiala/Shepard flirting:wub:

-Last I checked, democracy still exists in a human controled council.
-Hopefully the Reapers won't turn the Rachni into enemies like they did the last time. I felt more comfortable believing the Rachni were authors of their own misfortune and the new queen learnt something. The new info is cause for alarm.
-Tring to maximize human interests would mean saving Zhu's hope. While paragon, it's still in alignment of wanting to see human supremacy.

Paragon decisions I didn't like

-Letting that terrorist Belak go.
-Letting Vido go and have him continue his space piracy, which would probably kill more people than the few factory workers you save.
-Letting Elnora go
-Sparring Rana. She just can't stop getting herself involved with dangerous experiments.

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The same way that within a year of discovering the Martian Ruins, Humanity jumped to FTL travel and interstellar colonization, and how in less than a dozen years Humanity was able to fight evenly against the galaxy's greatest military power.

Because it left for them to find. Same with every race, and every race before man.

The Prothean data cache wasn't simply a 'here's how to do it
all in one two three' hand-out list: infact,
the Reapers method of action (according to Vigil) was to strip
technology as best they could: what we find is
what they missed in their latest sweep. The advances from the Prothean data cache and the speed of their implementation is the point to your question of how any Collector Base data could matter in a scope of years.

And the Reapers know what **** leaked from there base. You think they can't do the same thing?

Uh... that second part makes no sense. They can't do the same thing, as in adapt advanced technology that they themselves already have implemented?

Also, it's Cerberus you're giving it to. Not the Council, or the Alliance. A group run by a guy who calls himself the Illusive Man, who spends most of his time sitting, drinking and smoking, while watching a star die, and commands his people to force change, so his vision of humanity will dominate.

Which makes him worse than not opposing the Reapers with all means available... for some reason that's inherently obvious to you, apparently.

1) Again, your advancing because they gave you ****, or gave **** to someone they killed years ago, that's you're now using. They died.

2) If you knew your enemy had your weapon tech, don't you think you can build your own weapon to fight your own tech, because, guess what, you know your tech better then them?

3) He is worse if he makes Reapers that do the same thing. There, you just made the problem you just killed. More killing, more death. Not a gad damn thing changed..

You completely switching tracks on your argument.

1) Your question was how the base could become useful in a matter of years. The answer is in the same way that the Prothean data cache, hundreds of years more advanced than human tech, was adapted and utilized in a matter of monthes.

2) No. But then again, I'm an engineer, and I don't subscribe to the silly theories some people insist about how technology works against all history and practice. Technology isn't a series of parallel paths that can bring you to the same point. You can as much work parallel to another tech path without touching it as you can push a river upstream.


If a technologically superior foe knows how your technology works, furthering that technology isn't going to create something marvelously novel and effective because, hey, they mastered your technology years ago. Closing the gap, not trying to run parallel, is what will lessen the difference and give you the best insight to find effective countermeasures.

3) There's no point to make a Reaper with the collector base. There's no motive for it either, unless you're a Reaper: the benefits of Reaper technology, ie the actual technology, can be utilized and implemented without the effort or the cost of the Reaper methods.

Why build a Reaper when you can mass produce a conventional ship in a fraction of the time and with a fraction of the resources in vastly superior numbers? Why limit your construction to the limit of materials from organic smoothies when you can build Thannix canons, EDI AI, engines and more with easily minable minerals?

In short, why start a needless war Cerberus can't win kidnapping thousands of people it doesn't need with resources and manpower it doesn't have in order to produce an product it doesn't want?