3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If we're going to quote selective fiction, for which there is not-quite countless number of sources to refer to support our own argument whatever side it may be, why not start referring to dreams? It would be just as authoritative on the Mass Effect universe.

So there, everything you and me are saving means bull****, because it's all a game. Nothing matters. All that matters is, did you damn everyone to hell in your game, or am I a hero in mine.

Reverse the two and you might show a bit more wisdom.

[TMA LIVE]

Dean, a Reaper is a war ship that can mind control people. That's what you're giving to Cerberus. That's what you're advancing. Sure, you can kind a weakness, but chances are EDI already has that from simply scanning everything. So what are you jumping ahead with? How to make Reapers. And second, you talk about how the data on Mars jumped man big time, did it really happen in 2 years, or did take a little longer? I'm saying, you think you're going to be advanced enough by the time they show up? No, but if Cerberus is still alive afterward, then they will with reapers.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 12 juin 2010 - 10:16 .

[Nightwriter]

I find it interesting when people define wisdom as whether another person agrees with their personal views.

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If we're going to quote selective fiction, for which there is not-quite countless number of sources to refer to support our own argument whatever side it may be, why not start referring to dreams? It would be just as authoritative on the Mass Effect universe.

So there, everything you and me are saving means bull****, because it's all a game. Nothing matters. All that matters is, did you damn everyone to hell in your game, or am I a hero in mine.

Reverse the two and you might show a bit more wisdom.

Or I'm making a point. Paragon or Renegade. That's your ending. Pick one. That's what it comes down to.

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean, the Alliance alone blew up one reaper. We are now fighting hundreds. You think we can't board a ship, and blow them up on the inside, or make a virus to blow them all up? Or hack their ships? Do you really think they're that hard to kill, even though we know know about them, and can plan ahead?

Do quote whatever post you're referring to. Since it's in the last ten minutes or so, I'll humor you this time.

I know that the Alliance made little headway and was gutted in a fight against one Reaper which literally ran through the entirety of the Citadel fleet until Shepard killed Sovereign's avatar (bringing down Sovereign's systems) in a circumstance that can not be expected to be repeated.

I know that ground armies are by and large irrelevant to boarding a ship.

I know that boarding a hostile ship in combat is a fool's errand, especially when it is far superior in capabilities to you.

I know that computer viruses don't work like in Hollywood.

I know that the Reapers are going to be the most advanced AI we have yet encountered, and that hacking them unfeasible and to date unsupported.

I know they are hard to kill because even over-designed Mass Accelerator cannons with galactic-scale power can't fully kill them, and the last one didn't die on account of being overwhelmed.

I certainly am not going to take them on without every advantage I can seize.

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If we're going to quote selective fiction, for which there is not-quite countless number of sources to refer to support our own argument whatever side it may be, why not start referring to dreams? It would be just as authoritative on the Mass Effect universe.

So there, everything you and me are saving means bull****, because it's all a game. Nothing matters. All that matters is, did you damn everyone to hell in your game, or am I a hero in mine.

Reverse the two and you might show a bit more wisdom.

Or I'm making a point. Paragon or Renegade. That's your ending. Pick one. That's what it comes down to.

Renegade taking every action to save more people. Paragon willingly tossing aside more to death and risks extinction for personal ego and idealism.

Now, it might be I have a higher value on sentient life than you, and that all lives being equal I want to save as many as possible. I'm fairly sure that if there is a god, love of life is going to trump ideology.

But then, I don't believe in god. So there is no difference between heaven and hell to me.

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

-Letting that terrorist Belak go.
-Letting Vido go and have him continue his space piracy, which would probably kill more people than the few factory workers you save.
-Letting Elnora go
-Sparring Rana. She just can't stop getting herself involved with dangerous experiments.

Balak
If you saved her life, Kate will send you an email. Balak hides in ME2. I can't complain so far.

Rana
I'm probably a bit biased, but I think she is rather harmless.

Elnora
true (I'd like to see her again in ME3)

Vido
I doubt the Blue Suns dissolve if you kill him.

Modifié par Barquiel, 12 juin 2010 - 10:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

I find it interesting when people define wisdom as whether another person agrees with their personal views.

Oh, wisdom doesn't always agree with me. But wisdom does require being able to justify and support something in a coherent way.

Arguing hyperbolic atrocities that logic would argue against, and then positioning oneself as the hero while the others doomed to hell, is not wisdom.

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If we're going to quote selective fiction, for which there is not-quite countless number of sources to refer to support our own argument whatever side it may be, why not start referring to dreams? It would be just as authoritative on the Mass Effect universe.

So there, everything you and me are saving means bull****, because it's all a game. Nothing matters. All that matters is, did you damn everyone to hell in your game, or am I a hero in mine.

Reverse the two and you might show a bit more wisdom.

Or I'm making a point. Paragon or Renegade. That's your ending. Pick one. That's what it comes down to.

Renegade taking every action to save more people. Paragon willingly tossing aside more to death and risks extinction for personal ego and idealism.

Now, it might be I have a higher value on sentient life than you, and that all lives being equal I want to save as many as possible. I'm fairly sure that if there is a god, love of life is going to trump ideology.

But then, I don't believe in god. So there is no difference between heaven and hell to me.

Correction: Don't know squat till ME3 comes out, and making judgements based off fear.

Also, I do believe in god.

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean, the Alliance alone blew up one reaper. We are now fighting hundreds. You think we can't board a ship, and blow them up on the inside, or make a virus to blow them all up? Or hack their ships? Do you really think they're that hard to kill, even though we know know about them, and can plan ahead?

Do quote whatever post you're referring to. Since it's in the last ten minutes or so, I'll humor you this time.

I know that the Alliance made little headway and was gutted in a fight against one Reaper which literally ran through the entirety of the Citadel fleet until Shepard killed Sovereign's avatar (bringing down Sovereign's systems) in a circumstance that can not be expected to be repeated.

I know that ground armies are by and large irrelevant to boarding a ship.

I know that boarding a hostile ship in combat is a fool's errand, especially when it is far superior in capabilities to you.

I know that computer viruses don't work like in Hollywood.

I know that the Reapers are going to be the most advanced AI we have yet encountered, and that hacking them unfeasible and to date unsupported.

I know they are hard to kill because even over-designed Mass Accelerator cannons with galactic-scale power can't fully kill them, and the last one didn't die on account of being overwhelmed.

I certainly am not going to take them on without every advantage I can seize.

Are you in the army, or know anything about advanced future weaponry? I don't, and I bet you don't either. This is fiction. Anything can be made up to counter anything you say.

[Scrimgeour10]

"I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others the Collectors had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility... for it."

They should have listened to Ian Malcolm

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Correction: Don't know squat till ME3 comes out,

Hindsight is irrelevant to being able do everything you can to mitigate disaster ahead of time. Many things are constant and true without needing hindsight to validate them each and every time, simply because we have the hindsight of previous history to look to. Technology, and the results between different levels of technology, are some of them.

and making judgements based off fear.

This is an inherency statement. All judgements are made by determining which decision is better and which is worse, and then not choosing the worst option. This is something that applies to everyone, no matter the moral code which colors what you think of as 'worst.'  You might as well accuse me of breathing air.

Also, I do believe in god.

Congratulations! Did the Lord God come down to tell you himself without bothering to end human suffering and reveal His presence to us, or did you hear about him second-hand?

More importantly, I suppose, is it even relevant? Should you bother with religious inclinations at all in this argument?

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you in the army, or know anything about advanced future weaponry? I don't, and I bet you don't either. This is fiction. Anything can be made up to counter anything you say.

Why yes, I am in the army. And with a military science degree coming due in the next few months, I even have the excuse of scholarship in matters of military history to fall back on.

Funny you should bring that up, since I had no intention to.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 juin 2010 - 10:35 .

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Correction: Don't know squat till ME3 comes out,

Hindsight is irrelevant to being able do everything you can to mitigate disaster ahead of time. Many things are constant and true without needing hindsight to validate them each and every time, simply because we have the hindsight of previous history to look to. Technology, and the results between different levels of technology, are some of them.

and making judgements based off fear.

This is an inherency statement. All judgements are made by determining which decision is better and which is worse, and then not choosing the worst option. This is something that applies to everyone, no matter the moral code which colors what you think of as 'worst.'  You might as well accuse me of breathing air.

Also, I do believe in god.

Congratulations! Did the Lord God come down to tell you himself without bothering to end human suffering and reveal His presence to us, or did you hear about him second-hand?

More importantly, I suppose, is it even relevant? Should you bother with religious inclinations at all in this argument?

Whatever. You're your own preacher it seems. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Scrimgeour10 wrote...

"I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others the Collectors had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility... for it."

They should have listened to Ian Malcolm

Did Mr. Malcom reinvent calculus himself? How about creating his own car?

Surely he delivered his own mail?

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you in the army, or know anything about advanced future weaponry? I don't, and I bet you don't either. This is fiction. Anything can be made up to counter anything you say.

Why yes, I am in the army. And with a military science degree coming due in the next few months, I even have the excuse of scholarship in matters of military history to fall back on.

Funny you should bring that up, since I had no intention to.

Well good for you. Know way for me to know for sure of course.

[Dean_the_Young]

It wouldn't matter regardless: you'd be falling into the appeal to authority fallacy then.

Actually, that's not quite true. If I claimed that whatever I said on military matters was automatically correct because I am in the military, I would be disgracing myself with an appeal to authority fallacy. You weren't appealing to that, but rather making a case that if I wasn't, I couldn't know what I was talking about.

Both are equally baseless arguments. I am neither automatically correct because I am in the army, nor are you incorrect because you are not.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 juin 2010 - 10:46 .

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I find it interesting when people define wisdom as whether another person agrees with their personal views.

Oh, wisdom doesn't always agree with me. But wisdom does require being able to justify and support something in a coherent way.

Arguing hyperbolic atrocities that logic would argue against, and then positioning oneself as the hero while the others doomed to hell, is not wisdom.

By the same token, don't renegades do the same thing when they condemn the paragons for dooming the galaxy to hell all for the sake of their "naivete"?

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It wouldn't matter regardless: you'd be falling into the appeal to authority fallacy then.

Actually, that's not quite true. If I claimed that whatever I said on military matters was automatically correct because I am in the military, I would be disgracing myself with an appeal to authority fallacy. You weren't appealing to that, but rather making a case that if I wasn't, I couldn't know what I was talking about.

Both are equally baseless arguments. I am neither automatically correct because I am in the army, nor are you incorrect because you are not. You would be incorrect because of other things, like your argument.

Look, I really don't care. The thread wanted to know why I destroyed the base, and I said and defended my reasons. Long term, it means bad ****. But chances are we'll beat them without it, because there's never just the easy way. If you think I'm wrong, whatever, but I doubt it. I expect Earth and 90% of human colonies will die in the paragon ending, leaving man kind in a bad place. But everyone's alive, and working together. Renegade, Human's are alright, and aliens in the 90% damage. That's my belief. I'm not trying to pick a fight. 

[Scrimgeour10]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Scrimgeour10 wrote...

"I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others the Collectors had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility... for it."

They should have listened to Ian Malcolm

Did Mr. Malcom reinvent calculus himself? How about creating his own car?

Surely he delivered his own mail?

I didn't think a tongue-in-cheek quote from a fictional character would actually be taken as a serious argument.  *slowly leaves the thread*

In all seriousness, it is one of the less clear-cut decisions. In my playthroughs I've always had paragon Sheps destroy it and renegade Sheps save it, just from a gameplay perspective. Unsure what really would be the "best" choice - of there even is one.

[Ooga600]

Well I went there to destroy it and that's what I did. I don't trust Cerberus even though they saved Shepard, and what would you get from the base anyway? The only tech the Collectors have that surpasses the tech the fully upgraded SR2 has is the human to reaper goo grinder.

[Tempest]

Solenai wrote...


Reaper tech is used everyday. The citadel was created by the reapers, as were the mass relays and mass effect technology. None of them indoctrinate people. I'm not saying it's not a possibility but the collectors themselves were not controlled by passive indoctrination. Mordin explains that they are controlled through a variety of implants. This could mean that the collector base itself doesn't have the means to indoctrinate and, as stated in the game, they probably didn't count on anyone finding the base, so it's possible the collectors/reapers didn't build the station with the means of indoctrination since they didn't count on anybody ever being there apart from being melted down into reaper fluid.

Yes, reaper tech was used everyday.  This had many flaws.  The main one being that the Reapers knew how their tech worked and how to use it against those using their tech.   Also the Keepers were meant to send the signal if they weren't tampered with.

[lovgreno]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I find it interesting when people define wisdom as whether another person agrees with their personal views.

Oh, wisdom doesn't always agree with me. But wisdom does require being able to justify and support something in a coherent way.

Arguing hyperbolic atrocities that logic would argue against, and then positioning oneself as the hero while the others doomed to hell, is not wisdom.

By the same token, don't renegades do the same thing when they condemn the paragons for dooming the galaxy to hell all for the sake of their "naivete"?

True. Are trying to learn new ways of thinking from people with different opinions here or are we just trying to prove to ourselves that those who disagrees with us are stupid/unwise/naive?

Both the potential risks and potential benefits with giving the base to Cerberus are at best vague, that is how the story is wtitten by purpose. The choice is not created to be black and white. There is no and will never be any perfect arguments that supports me or you saying: "I am right and therefore smarter than you stupid others".

Modifié par lovgreno, 13 juin 2010 - 09:36 .

[DuffyMJ]

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you had a choice between saving the Galaxy from Cerberus or the Reapers, which would you pick? [Realistically based on which would be a lesser threat to have to go up against.]

A paragon ending says I can do both with things the Reapers had nothing to do with.

You expect a paragon ending to turn out well. That's a good guess considering it's a video game and the writers probably don't have the guts to shaft players who act like Jesus. However, roleplaying it realistically, it would probably bite you on your butt.

Speaking from a regulatory/law enforcement background, playing the role of someone who does not respect and follow the law -- even to a minor degree -- WILL corrupt you.  There's a reason that, statistically, the most effective police agencies and lowest crime rates in the US are in jurisdictions that offer police great pay and excellent benefits like guaranteed pensions, and that is because police receiving such pay and pensions do their job exactly as they are expected to do, and would never risk losing their great pay/pensions through graft or corruption.  The reason laws, customs, and policies exist isn't to make it difficult to "get the job done" -- they exist because they are usually idiot-proof guidelines to achieving desired outcomes.  The reason almost every civilization in the world right now has a "DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER!!!!" is because, duh, it's DAMN good advice.  Working with terrorists in a trippy future world and handing them the key to a genocidal robot factory... huh, great idea...