3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Sorry to burst your bubble but TiM was WELL AWARE over every single detail of entire project (like he was aware about Akuze experiment or teltin facility (Jack) and all childrens death there) so stop claiming that TiM is just missinformed about what's going on around Cerberus CEO.

Straight fail, full stop. Go play through Teltin again. Listen to the security logs, particularly the one in which someone is highly concerned tIM will catch wind of the actual experiments.

Every recordings of the holos COULD BE ALTERED  to fit "rogue cell" theory and Cerberus team have in off time to do such things in time frame between jack's escape and Shepard's arrival on Pragia.
Even Jack pointed that her memory of the events in facility don't match which key holo recordings.

Paranoia is funny to listen to.
You take the word of a mentaly unstable individual over a facility of evidence, just because.

[DOYOURLABS]

I just choose to keep it because it was better to have it and not need it. And I would prefer having a few million of a species be sacrificed to become a reaper, because it's either a few million or ALL of them.

[Kronner]

Because a good Shep can kick their asses without fancy Collector stuff?

[Christmas Ape]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Sorry to burst your bubble but TiM was WELL AWARE over every single detail of entire project (like he was aware about Akuze experiment or teltin facility (Jack) and all childrens death there) so stop claiming that TiM is just missinformed about what's going on around Cerberus CEO.

Straight fail, full stop. Go play through Teltin again. Listen to the security logs, particularly the one in which someone is highly concerned tIM will catch wind of the actual experiments.

Every recordings of the holos COULD BE ALTERED  to fit "rogue cell" theory and Cerberus team have in off time to do such things in time frame between jack's escape and Shepard's arrival on Pragia.
Even Jack pointed that her memory of the events in facility don't match which key holo recordings.

This is...complete nonsense. Really? Cerberus took the time and attention to alter a damaged holo-recording in an abandoned facility on a backwater world just in case the primary subject came back with a do-gooder Alliance commando with a bone to pick with Cerberus' research ethics? And that they decided "carefully doctor one piece of evidence to shield the Illusive Man from the rest of our carefully recorded horrors" was better than "blow it the crap up so no-one is tied to anything"?

And honestly... if TiM really is so incompetent leader that he have no idea what his "cells" doing then perhaps he should step down and appointed someone who will take whole organization back on track and will oversight everything very closely.

You have clearly never worked in the sciences - nor indeed management in general - nor do you appear to grasp just how big space is or the concept of 'secret facility'.

[lovgreno]

In any case Cerberus started all those so called rogue cells, gave them a goal to achieve without specifying how far they are allowed to go to achieve it and funded them. If they didn't want them to torture children to gain the results they are still responsible for what the "rogue" cells does in their name. It seems to me that Cerberus command doesn't want to know what the "rogue" cells does so they can keep their own hands clean. We only have TIMs word (wich is not worth anything) for that he didn't know what happened in the Teltin facility. His direct involvement in their methods can't be proven, as usual. But TIM is very good at removing information that can link him directly to anything.

Everyone betrays and manipulates eachother in Cerberus and cover their failiures behind lies, a very innefective method of running a organisation. Not the people who should be trusted to keep the Collector Base safe.

[N7Recon]

I've kept the base and destroyed it. Just depends on the playthrough.
I will say though, that Cerberus' ineptitude is not complete. So far Cerberus' success or failure seems to revolve around proximity to the Alliance/rule of law.
When Cerberus does something that the Alliance should/would do they succeed (built a better Normandy, revive the Savior of the Citadel, save the Council). When Cerberus attempts to do something that the Alliance shouldn't do they fail (breed Rachni, husks, perform experiements on children).

We'll see if ME3 continues this trend.

Modifié par N7Recon, 20 juin 2010 - 01:47 .

[Vaenier]

N7Recon wrote...

I've kept the base and destroyed it. Just depends on the playthrough.
I will say though, that Cerberus' ineptitude is not complete. So far Cerberus' success or failure seems to revolve around proximity to the Alliance/rule of law.
When Cerberus does something that the Alliance should/would do they succeed (built a better Normandy, revive the Savior of the Citadel, save the Council). When Cerberus attempts to do something that the Alliance shouldn't do they fail (breed Rachni, husks, perform experiements on children).

We'll see if ME3 continues this trend.

Could it be that Cerberus is always trying to work for the Alliance, but rogue cells pop up and are terminated because the Alliance doesnt want them?

And by that logic, the Alliance would eagerly be all over the Collector base, and thus Cerberus will succeed in using it. Awsome!

[Dean_the_Young]

MajorStranger wrote...

The Collector Base was an unknown factor in the Galaxy fight against the reaper. No one knows if they could've use it against them. But they knew the reaper was using it against them. So to make sure the Reapers would never use it again the only good option was to blow it up.

What if you had let it in perfect condition and when the reapers come, they go straight there and recapture it. Then they could abduct more organic being in order to grow their number for the fights to come

...they'd really have to have won the war first to be able to do that (capture enough humans to make another Reaper). In which case, we couldn't stop them from re-making the base either.

If the Reapers win, they remake the base. If the Reapers recapture the base, they have to win to put it to use.

Neither one precludes the Reapers from being able to make new Reapers.

[JaegerBane]

LorDC wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
There is such a difference as worthwhile risks and flagrantly stupid risks. Fiddling with unknown tech to release a focused pulse of radiation falls squarely onto the latter category on account that Shep doesn't truly know what he's doing, never mind whether or not it works as intended. Causing a nuclear reactor to go into meltdown doesn't exactly require a great deal of effort... hell, neglect can do it.

So if you release radiation pulse it is "unknown tech" and if set exactly same thing to overload it suddenly becomes usual nuclear reactor? Perfect logic! Seriously, you just completely ignored my point.

Then explain your point better. So far your point comes across that Shep should just take any risk that comes his way like some unthinking moron.

While the tech itself is clearly unknown (or at least poorly understood), the fundemental concept of what it is doing is not, judging by how it is represented in EDI's plans. Since any nuclear generator is capable of creating an explosion (that is, an uncontrolled release of energy, as oppose to the controlled release in normal operation) by default, it doesn't really make sense to say that causing it to go boom is just as hit and miss as making it flood only Collector-killing radiation and not going critical in the process.

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Because a good Shep can kick their asses without fancy Collector stuff?

So long as he has his trusty Particle Beam...

[Dualfinger]

Really the reason should be simple, how many bases have we had to clear out because somone was messing around somthing beyond their understanding. Seran, Noveria, Overlord, numerous reseach facilities in the side quests, reaper IFF, anyone see a pattern here? If this base a was at the heart of the Reapers influence in the galaxy I think it's pretty much a given that somthing bad is going to happen.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Sorry to burst your bubble but TiM was WELL AWARE over every single detail of entire project (like he was aware about Akuze experiment or teltin facility (Jack) and all childrens death there) so stop claiming that TiM is just missinformed about what's going on around Cerberus CEO.

Straight fail, full stop. Go play through Teltin again. Listen to the security logs, particularly the one in which someone is highly concerned tIM will catch wind of the actual experiments.

Every recordings of the holos COULD BE ALTERED  to fit "rogue cell" theory and Cerberus team have in off time to do such things in time frame between jack's escape and Shepard's arrival on Pragia.
Even Jack pointed that her memory of the events in facility don't match which key holo recordings.

This is...complete nonsense. Really? Cerberus took the time and attention to alter a damaged holo-recording in an abandoned facility on a backwater world just in case the primary subject came back with a do-gooder Alliance commando with a bone to pick with Cerberus' research ethics? And that they decided "carefully doctor one piece of evidence to shield the Illusive Man from the rest of our carefully recorded horrors" was better than "blow it the crap up so no-one is tied to anything"?

And honestly... if TiM really is so incompetent leader that he have no idea what his "cells" doing then perhaps he should step down and appointed someone who will take whole organization back on track and will oversight everything very closely.

You have clearly never worked in the sciences - nor indeed management in general - nor do you appear to grasp just how big space is or the concept of 'secret facility'.

Yer, I'll have to agree with Christmas Ape here. It's borderline absurd to assert that TIM went about doctoring the recordings in Teltin for the purpose of deceiving Jack. Particularly given the context of how the plot with Jack plays out.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 21 juin 2010 - 12:04 .

[langelog]

I destroyed it, because it was an abomination that was responsible for the genocide of thousands of human lives and it had to be destroyed for the greater good. Its like if the United States had liberated the German concentration camps and said "hey the Germans have some interesting technology, maybe we should use this place for our benifit." "Hey we need something to test these new technologies on", "Wait, remember the German's used hundreds of helpless innocents to practice there sick and twisted medical expiraments on, maybe we could do the same." This is why I destroyed the Collector base. You could even think of TIM as Adolf Hitler if that makes the situation more real to you. Preserving that base is a betrayal to Humanity and I'm glad its gone. We will defeat the Reapers on our own!

Modifié par langelog, 21 juin 2010 - 12:12 .

[DPSSOC]

langelog wrote...

I destroyed it, because it was an abomination that was responsible for the genocide of thousands of human lives and it had to be destroyed for the greater good.

 
Point of order it's only genocide if you wipe out the entire species.  At best it's attempted genocide but I think this simply qualifies as mass homocide.

langelog wrote...
Its like if the United States had liberated the German concentration camps and said "hey the Germans have some interesting technology, maybe we should use this place for our benifit."

 
Leaving the camps out of it a lot of German technology was put into use.  Early rockets in the space program were actually based off the German V2.  However this is a completely different situation.  The knowledge in the base didn't come from what happened to the people there.  A closer analogy would be finding plans to a German super weapon and refusing to use it because it was found at a concentration camp.  It's not like the genophage cure where Maelon tortured live subjects to refine it, the relation between the data and the atrocity doesn't exist in the Collector base.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 21 juin 2010 - 01:23 .

[smudboy]

DPSSOC wrote...

langelog wrote...
Its like if the United States had liberated the German concentration camps and said "hey the Germans have some interesting technology, maybe we should use this place for our benifit."

 
Leaving the camps out of it a lot of German technology was put into use.  Early rockets in the space program were actually based off the German V2.  However this is a completely different situation.  The knowledge in the base didn't come from what happened to the people there.  A closer analogy would be finding plans to a German super weapon and refusing to use it because it was found at a concentration camp.  It's not like the genophage cure where Maelon tortured live subjects to refine it, the relation between the data and the atrocity doesn't exist in the Collector base.

The US also didn't blow up Auschwitz.
The Germans also weren't billions of AI with million year old God complexes cyclically genociding all life, forever.  The sheer fact that this is the scale, and that these are your opponents, you would want every advantage, clue, luck, edge you can possibly get.  "I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it" is a bull**** line that means nothing save stupidity and pride.

Modifié par smudboy, 21 juin 2010 - 02:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

No, it means something.



It means that they are happily willing to let trillions die to satisfy a sentiment that no one will even be aware of in the case of failure.



If they succeed, it means they were happy enough let whatever the potential difference in the war between fighting with better technology or not was. Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Billions?



But clearly they are the side with the highest regard for the sanctity of sentient life.

[Dean_the_Young]

DPSSOC wrote...

langelog wrote...

I destroyed it, because it was an abomination that was responsible for the genocide of thousands of human lives and it had to be destroyed for the greater good.

 
Point of order it's only genocide if you wipe out the entire species.  At best it's attempted genocide but I think this simply qualifies as mass homocide.

It counts as genocide if it's all or part of a group: in this case, individual colonies were genocided.

By the UN definition, even simply taking the children from one group and giving them to another is genocide. In the US, this was called 'killing the indian, saving the man.' No deaths required.

Stupid, but the UN definition of genocide is so vague and open-ended that anything can be called genocide.

Leaving the camps out of it a lot of German technology was put into use.  Early rockets in the space program were actually based off the German V2.  However this is a completely different situation.  The knowledge in the base didn't come from what happened to the people there.  A closer analogy would be finding plans to a German super weapon and refusing to use it because it was found at a concentration camp.  It's not like the genophage cure where Maelon tortured live subjects to refine it, the relation between the data and the atrocity doesn't exist in the Collector base.

Let's not forget another real-world example: Japan's Unit 516.

[yummysoap]

I blow it up, but only the alternative seems to be handing the keys to the place over the Cerberus. I don't quite understand why it had to be one way or another. Why the hell couldn't I show it to the council as proof to the Reaper threat? Sure, they might still act like a bunch of nonces and say it's just a giant terminator, but the effort in trying seems a hell of a lot more logical then just letting human space-terrorists take over.



The other issue is that every damn one of your squad members say it's a bad idea afterwards if you did choose to blow it up. That's going to colour my judgment a bit, considering I like them all so much and stuff. That, combined with the golden opportunity to finally tell the Illusive Man to go **** himself is what helps me make my decision.



Thing is, Shepards lame "I will not compromise who we are" excuse just strikes me as self-righteous romantic ideology. Research of that base could potentially save the entire galaxy, or at the very least give some kind of indication of how Collector/Reaper technology works, but because a couple of colonies got slushie'd it suddenly must be destroyed? It seems a bit counter-productive considering that the base potentially provides a motherload of Reaper information that could well be used against them in the future. I are confused.

[Dean_the_Young]

yummysoap wrote...

I blow it up, but only the alternative seems to be handing the keys to the place over the Cerberus. I don't quite understand why it had to be one way or another. Why the hell couldn't I show it to the council as proof to the Reaper threat? Sure, they might still act like a bunch of nonces and say it's just a giant terminator, but the effort in trying seems a hell of a lot more logical then just letting human space-terrorists take over.

Why would Cerberus let you keep it if you wouldn't give it to them? They have the ships and the IFF, as the Renegade all-death ending shows. And the Omega 4 Relay is deep in Terminus space, which means the Council would have to start a war to move in in force and secure it.

The other issue is that every damn one of your squad members say it's a bad idea afterwards if you did choose to blow it up. That's going to colour my judgment a bit, considering I like them all so much and stuff. That, combined with the golden opportunity to finally tell the Illusive Man to go **** himself is what helps me make my decision.

Most of them say 'I don't trust the Illusive Man.' 'I'm uneasy.' No one is saying 'this will not help the war,' or 'this is the key to our destruction' or any such nonsense.

Moreover, why can't you form your own opinion on the worth of the base without them? Do you really think TIM's abuse will be worse than the Reapers?

Thing is, Shepards lame "I will not compromise who we are" excuse just strikes me as self-righteous romantic ideology. Research of that base could potentially save the entire galaxy, or at the very least give some kind of indication of how Collector/Reaper technology works, but because a couple of colonies got slushie'd it suddenly must be destroyed? It seems a bit counter-productive considering that the base potentially provides a motherload of Reaper information that could well be used against them in the future. I are confused.

You think not trusting TIM to be responsible post-war is more important than saving the entire galaxy, so it doesn't seem a unlikely opinion to hold. You're acting out of fear of TIM, after all.

[rabidhanar]

Dead people cannot come back....Might as well use the station anyway. I am quite sure that the dead would want their deaths to lead to the survival of the Galaxy. You blow up the base, those people sacrificed their lives for nothing. You save it and maybe Cerberus can learn a weakness of the reapers or at least some better defenses for Humanity.

[Christmas Ape]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, it means something.

It means that they are happily willing to let trillions die to satisfy a sentiment that no one will even be aware of in the case of failure.

If they succeed, it means they were happy enough let whatever the potential difference in the war between fighting with better technology or not was. Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Billions?

But clearly they are the side with the highest regard for the sanctity of sentient life.

Apparently not everyone thinks the species you'd let us become is worth saving.

[yummysoap]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would Cerberus let you keep it if you wouldn't give it to them? They have the ships and the IFF, as the Renegade all-death ending shows. And the Omega 4 Relay is deep in Terminus space, which means the Council would have to start a war to move in in force and secure it.

I'm going to have to plead ignorance on my part for that. I was under the impression the Normandy was the only one with the IFF. It suddenly makes a whole lot more sense now.

Regarding war in Terminus Space, the Council (or at least the Alliance), already appear to confidentially engage covert missions round and about Terminus space, what with Ashley/Kaidan bopping around on Horizon, and their Corsair operatives. It's not unbelievable that given the threat that's posed they would allow a small risk in sending a few stealthed research frigates around. They only have to be in the Terminus systems for as long as it takes for them to hit the relay anyway.

On the face of it all, the Council know how dangerous Cerberus is, and I'm sure they can speculate as to what they'll be capable of with ancient slushie technology behind their belt. I dont' think it's completely unreasonable on my part to think that upon being presented with evidence of the Reaper threat and a warning that Cerberus are trying to get their hands on it, the Council would finally take some action and send some ships through to secure the area.

Then again, I am also aware how forgetful they seem to be, but I'm still disappointed that it wasn't even an option, even if it turned out to be a catastrophic mistake in ME3.

Most of them say 'I don't trust the Illusive Man.' 'I'm uneasy.' No one is saying 'this will not help the war,' or 'this is the key to our destruction' or any such nonsense.

Moreover, why can't you form your own opinion on the worth of the base without them? Do you really think TIM's abuse will be worse than the Reapers?

Fair enough, but they all pretty much agree it was a good idea on the other side of the coin.  Miranda, Tim's right-hand, openly states infront of him that she thinks it's a bad idea.

I know it's a pretty weak argument to make, but to me it almost felt like Bioware were telling me what I should have done, considering that not a single one of them will tell you that they agree with the choice you make. If their opinions were evenly balanced it would be a different story.

Modifié par yummysoap, 21 juin 2010 - 03:58 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, it means something.

It means that they are happily willing to let trillions die to satisfy a sentiment that no one will even be aware of in the case of failure.

If they succeed, it means they were happy enough let whatever the potential difference in the war between fighting with better technology or not was. Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Billions?

But clearly they are the side with the highest regard for the sanctity of sentient life.

Apparently not everyone thinks the species you'd let us become is worth saving.

Hooray! Genocide of people we're don't admire is preferable to moral superiority!

Aren't we such benevolent people who believe in life for life's own sake?

[rabidhanar]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hooray! Genocide of people we're don't admire is preferable to moral superiority!

Aren't we such benevolent people who believe in life for life's own sake?

Cannot wait till the galaxy hears about this one:

"Tonight we have top breaking news about the recent destruction of the Galaxy's last hope. Commander Shepard, Hero of the Citadel, has reportedly destroyed the collector base, dooming us all. The Commander has left no comment."