3478 réponses à ce sujet

[heretica]

Shandepared wrote...

Catt128 wrote...

I destroyed it the first time because it didn't feel right. I mean, the guy is not clear about what he wasnts and I have a hard time believe any of the things he says.

Really? I thought he was quite upfront about it. He says that the technology in the base will give them the tools they (humanity) needs to defeat the Reapers. Beyond that the base will ensure humanity can remain a dominant force in the galaxy even after the Reapers have been destroyed.

How much more plainly must he speak?

Right. I hope this is sarcasm. Since when does he really care about humanity, anyways? He's after his own motives. Where was he when Eden Pime got attacked? Why Cerberus experimented on humans? 
He's used Shepard as bait several times, the guy gives a **** about humanity.
Tell me one single thing Cerberus has done to help humanity. 

[LorDC]

Catt128 wrote...
Where was he when Eden Pime got attacked?

And what Cerberus could have done about it? They are covert-ops organization not self-defense force. Besides the same question could be addressed to Council and Alliance.

Catt128 wrote...
Why Cerberus experimented on humans?

To advance human race.

Catt128 wrote...
Tell me one single thing Cerberus has done to help humanity. 

Saved colonies from abduction and destroyed/captured Collector's base?

Modifié par LorDC, 25 juin 2010 - 08:58 .

[Massadonious1]

Except Shepard did all those things. Cerberus was just a means to an end.



It's like US Airways or Airbus taking credit for Sully Sullenberger landing that plane safely in the Hudson.

[STG]

LorDC wrote...

Catt128 wrote...
Tell me one single thing Cerberus has done to help humanity. 

Saved colonies from abduction and destroyed/captured Collector's base?

Because the needs of Cerberus happened to be the same as needs of humanity. If humanity needed one day for Cerberus to go out of business I can't see TIM stepping down without a fight.

[LorDC]

Massadonious1 wrote...
Except Shepard did all those things. Cerberus was just a means to an end.

That isn't even funny. Without Cerberus help Shepard would be either (a) Dead, ( not having any resources to fight Collectors, © chasing Collectors' Cruiser all over Terminus. Basically Shepard only did what TIM told him to do. The only thing he can have credit for is planning and executing assault on CB.

[lovgreno]

STG wrote...

Because the needs of Cerberus happened to be the same as needs of humanity. If humanity needed one day for Cerberus to go out of business I can't see TIM stepping down without a fight.

Or as TIM says himself: "Cerberus IS humanity".

[STG]

LorDC wrote...

Catt128 wrote...
Why Cerberus experimented on humans?

To advance human race.

So if a Cerberus squad showed up at your door, kidnapped your family and loved ones, took them to a research facility to be tortured and eventually murdered, you would be ok with that because they are trying to advance human race?

[LorDC]

STG wrote...
Because the needs of Cerberus happened to be the same as needs of humanity. If humanity needed one day for Cerberus to go out of business I can't see TIM stepping down without a fight.

Ok, what evidence(except personal feelings for TIM) do you have that their goals are different from advancing and guarding humanity?
And about TIM not going down without fight. Do you seriously believe that other kind of man could be commanding any serious organization?

[LorDC]

STG wrote...
So if a Cerberus squad showed up at your door, kidnapped your family and loved ones, took them to a research facility to be tortured and eventually murdered, you would be ok with that because they are trying to advance human race?

Ah, ad hominem argument. We have dismissed that claim.

[Massadonious1]

I think it's plenty funny, myself



If Shepard didn't die and still had the SR1, I wouldn't doubt that he could of capably did everything TIM "told him" to do without his help, including figuring out how to travel through the O4 relay. He pretty much did the same thing in tracking down Saren, with the only "leads" coming from the council giving him the locations of 4 planets where Saren "might' be or have some kind of influence over.



I think you underestimate Shepard's importance in this whole thing. Cerberus didn't bring him back because he's just some dumb grunt who can shoot pretty well and look sexy on Cerberus recruitment posters. If it was that easy, TIM could of just tapped Jacob for the job.

[LorDC]

Shepard is indeed very capable man. But Shepard needs TIM no less than TIM needs Shepard. And if you go on with what-if logic I will say that if Miranda somehow were on Eden Prime Cerberus could have stopped Reapers without Shepard's help.

[STG]

LorDC wrote...
Ok, what evidence(except personal feelings for TIM) do you have that their goals are different from advancing and guarding humanity?

No evidence. Do you have evidence that they are legit and really have humanity's best interest in mind?

LorDC wrote...

STG wrote...
So if a Cerberus
squad showed up at your door, kidnapped your family and loved ones, took
them to a research facility to be tortured and eventually murdered, you
would be ok with that because they are trying to advance human race?

Ah,
ad hominem argument. We have dismissed that claim.

Call
it what you will, you didn't really answer my question, now did you?

[Ieldra]

Tighue wrote...
Honestly, I would have agonized over the desicion had I been given the option to secure the base for the Alliance Navy.

You would have *agonized* about it then? If I'd had that chance, there wouldn't have been a single second of hesitation about it - I'd have kept the base. Anything else would have been stupid. Only consideration of TIM's motives made me think about alternatives. Ultimately, though, getting intel on the enemy is more important than keeping the base out of TIM's hands. As bad as it sounds, he *is* the lesser evil.

His eyes make me consider unpleasant scenarios, though. What if he's indoctrinated, and this was all just a roundabout way to get his hands on Reaper tech to turn humanity into one in his own way. Reaper ideology sees the creation of a new Reaper from an intelligent species as "ascension". That's uncomfortably compatible with Cerberus "advancement of humanity". I can see Cerberus' original goals of human domination become corrupted by Reaper ideology through indoctrination this way.

That doesn't make a difference when deciding about the base, though. I can only decide from what I know then.

[LorDC]

STG wrote...
No evidence. Do you have evidence that they are legit and really have humanity's best interest in mind?

They claim it and their actions match their words. Occam's Razor tells us that we should stick with theory of pro-human Cerberus. Thus it is you who have to prove your theory.

STG wrote...
Call
it what you will, you didn't really answer my question, now did you?

And I will not because your question doesn't have any connection to our discussion.

Modifié par LorDC, 25 juin 2010 - 09:31 .

[N7Recon]

LorDC wrote...

N7Recon wrote...
The problem with most of Cerberus's successes is that the player probably considers them to be Shepard's. Consider surviving the Omega-4 relay... technically a Cerberus success but you can't blame most players for thinking of it as Shepard's success since she 'did all the work'.

That's where double standarts come in play. When doctors at Pragia facility fail with Jack escape it is TIM's fault because he organized that project and it doesn't matter that his officers misinformed him. But when Shepard(who spent all ME 2 executing TIM's plans) destroys Reapers operations all credits go to Shepard because... well because it's Shepard.

I agree that it's a double standard.  But I'm trying to imagine why players seem to think that Cerberus is a whole bundle of failures.  The only reason I can think of is that most of their successes that we know of involve Shepard making them happen.  Because of that Cerberus' win column seems to have a lower tally than it should.

Still, given how terribly things went when there was minor contact between Collector/Reaper-tech and Cerberus/Alliance-tech...The idea that we could take Collector tech wholesale without repercussions seems a bit suspicious.

Modifié par N7Recon, 25 juin 2010 - 09:38 .

[LorDC]

Ieldra2 wrote...
His eyes make me consider unpleasant scenarios, though. What if he's indoctrinated, and this was all just a roundabout way to get his hands on Reaper tech to turn humanity into one in his own way. Reaper ideology sees the creation of a new Reaper from an intelligent species as "ascension". That's uncomfortably compatible with Cerberus "advancement of humanity". I can see Cerberus' original goals of human domination become corrupted by Reaper ideology through indoctrination this way. 

That is REALLY far-fetched. It is no more close to reality that theory that Council is indoctrinated. They actively countered your attempts to stop Reapers, you know.

[LorDC]

N7Recon wrote...
Still, given how terribly things went when there was minor contact between Collector/Reaper-tech and Cerberus/Alliance-tech...The idea that we could take Collector tech wholesale without repercussions seems a bit suspicious.

Yeah, SR-2 is bad, Thanix cannons are bad... They really made your mission impossible.

[N7Recon]

STG wrote...

LorDC wrote...

Catt128 wrote...
Why Cerberus experimented on humans?

To advance human race.

So if a Cerberus squad showed up at your door, kidnapped your family and loved ones, took them to a research facility to be tortured and eventually murdered, you would be ok with that because they are trying to advance human race?

The obvious answer to this question is "no".  Most people are unwilling to suffer the personal loss for the potential benefit of unknown others.

But the related, and more ultimately more important, question is "would you use valuable data that was collected in an unethical way?"

Suppose Cerberus' biotic research resulted in the best biotic amps available.  Obviously such work would make fighting the Collectors easier.  Would you turn down that biotic amp because it was the product of unethical research?

It's easy to say "no, that's wrong and spits on graves".  It's also easy to say "the damage has been done, might as well take the benefits".  The problem that an organization like Cerberus poses is that they say "might as well do the damage because we could get benefits in the end".  That's why the Cerberus story arch is so good, it exemplifies the Paragon/Renegade divide.

[Ieldra]

LorDC wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
His eyes make me consider unpleasant scenarios, though. What if he's indoctrinated, and this was all just a roundabout way to get his hands on Reaper tech to turn humanity into one in his own way. Reaper ideology sees the creation of a new Reaper from an intelligent species as "ascension". That's uncomfortably compatible with Cerberus "advancement of humanity". I can see Cerberus' original goals of human domination become corrupted by Reaper ideology through indoctrination this way. 

That is REALLY far-fetched. It is no more close to reality that theory that Council is indoctrinated. They actively countered your attempts to stop Reapers, you know.

Not altogether implausible given what we know of earlier Reaper scenarios, but admittedly far fetched enough that it didn't influence my decision - as I said, I keep the base most of the time, and have frequently argued it's the better decision, and that to destroy it is stupid even if the only alternative is to give it to TIM. Still, one does wonder what TIM's eyes signify. It could be something harmless, like cybernetic eye implants after an accident - but would you really believe it if he  said that?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2010 - 09:54 .

[STG]

LorDC wrote...
And I will not because your question doesn't have any connection to our discussion.

Discussion is about "results at all cost" which is what Collector Base represents and if you support that or not.

And I ask:
So if a Cerberus squad showed up at your door, kidnapped your family and
loved ones, took them to a research facility to be tortured and
eventually murdered, you would be ok with that because they are trying
to advance human race?

It's very easy to support something despicable like human torture, murder and a whole bunch of other atrocities when you are sitting in your home enjoying a fine meal with your family. But I can tell you this, if I had a choice between having my family alive and a chance that humans may get stronger biotics I would choose my family every single time.

And if I wouldn't like something be done to me, I can't support that same thing being done to anyone else.

[N7Recon]

LorDC wrote...

N7Recon wrote...
Still, given how terribly things went when there was minor contact between Collector/Reaper-tech and Cerberus/Alliance-tech...The idea that we could take Collector tech wholesale without repercussions seems a bit suspicious.

Yeah, SR-2 is bad, Thanix cannons are bad... They really made your mission impossible.

Ummmm ok...I didn't say the tech would ultimately be bad.  Nor did I say it would make anything impossible.  In addition, the total ease or difficulty of development for the Thanix cannon is not fully revealed.  We don't know if any Turians died or were injured in their attempts to develop that tech.

What we do know is that the attempts to interface with Collector-tech that are shown initially go down badly, requiring massive efforts on the part of Shepard & crew to overcome.  Moreover, those attempts were with limited contact to Collector-tech.  It stands to reason that Collector-tech with more computational resources (e.g. a massive base) would be able to mount stronger counter-measures if they exist.

EDI + More hardware = Stronger EDI
Collector AI + More hardware = Stronger Collector AI

Not controversial.

Modifié par N7Recon, 25 juin 2010 - 10:01 .

[Ieldra]

STG wrote...

LorDC wrote...
And I will not because your question doesn't have any connection to our discussion.

Discussion is about "results at all cost" which is what Collector Base represents and if you support that or not.

No, that's not what the Collector Base represents. In this case, the damage has already been done. Destroying the base won't help anyone, keeping it won't damage anyone. It's not remotely the same scenario as yours. 

[STG]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Destroying the base won't help anyone, keeping it won't damage anyone.

Destroying the base won't hurt anyone, keeping it won't help anyone.


See, we just don't know. We can speculate all day long but at the end, we just don't know.

[heretica]

LorDC wrote...

Catt128 wrote...
Where was he when Eden Pime got attacked?

And what Cerberus could have done about it? They are covert-ops organization not self-defense force. Besides the same question could be addressed to Council and Alliance.

Catt128 wrote...
Why Cerberus experimented on humans?

To advance human race.

Catt128 wrote...
Tell me one single thing Cerberus has done to help humanity. 

Saved colonies from abduction and destroyed/captured Collector's base?

Ceberus, as explained by Miranda, has an armed side of the organization (we found those in ME1. UNC quest) The Alliance sent Shepard, the Council didn't want to risk a war with the Terminus System if they stepped in. There is a reason why Cerberus is a cover-ops organization. It's like the IRA or Al-Qaeda of Mass Effect. 
They are terrorists, they do not follow any laws or rules. 

So, the reason Cerberus tossed and Alliance Major in a pool with rachni is to advance humanity. Do not pay attention to the fact that Major Kyle was going to send the info he collected on Cerberus to The Shadow Broker. 
What about Ascension project, or Subject Zero? Torturing kids to advance humanity? Is it really worth it?

When did Cerberus save ANY colonies? I don't remember the Ilusive Man saying something about "Focus on finding survivors". First colony we encounter, Freedom's Progress, he sends you to investigate something he ALREADY knew. Who knows if he knew beforehand that the Collectors would go there? Who knows if he just let all the people get kidnapped just to have something to show Shepard? He only uses the "Human colonies are being wiped off" argument only to get Shepard's attention.

Collector's Base. Let's see. It seems that the only thing he ever wanted is the technology. The Colelctors are very advanced. He's a fanatic. He says things like "Cerberus IS humanity" How arrogant is that? By saying that he obviously says a lot about what kind of person he is, shows he doesn't accept any other view than his own. 

To put it this way. Let's take a pro-[insert here race]. Let's take the example of ****sm. Pro-arian race "organization"/political party/whateveryoufancy. 
Self centered. Fanatical. They would do anything in defense of their identity (or what they belived to be it). 
Imagine if Hitler had discovered a mass destruction weapon, biotic weapon.. Or the blueprints to build it. What would he say? "I only want it to defend my people" He wouldn't think twice before using it.

Same as Cerberus. They say it's for humanity best interests. Bull****. He would glady destroy the Alliance, destroy anyone who is against him or thinks different. And i'm not even mentioning Aliens. 

The thing is, this guy is ****ing nuts, you can put all that unlimited power on his hands. **** will happen.

Edit: lame grammar is lame. So sorry!! <3

Modifié par Catt128, 25 juin 2010 - 10:11 .