3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Guns]

This has all probably been said already, but

- The Illusive Man wants to use it to enslave every other race after the Reaper threat is destroyed

- The Reapers might be able to activate it or neutralize it with other ships/knowledge of the technology since its their own

- All the horrific acts and abominations done there better to just completely annihilate it.

- I hate Cerberus and the Illusive Man, but this wasn't the main reason it's just the icing on the cake.

[Cheese Elemental]

bottledwater wrote...

why do people think cerberus is evil? cerberus is chaotic good. they want to save humanity by any means necessary.

Cerberus experimented on live subjects, including Rachni. They tried to make use of Dragon's Teeth (inhumane technology). They want to put humanity above every other race, at any cost.
Cerberus is Lawful Evil.

bottledwater wrote...

i personally trusted TIM, even after he send me to the collector ship to
get killed, because as someone points out in the game, why would he
spend that much money just to screw me over?

He probably had good intentions with the Collector ship trap, but in ME3, it's very likely that unless Shepard is explicity pro-human, he's far too idealistic and alien-friendly and therefore a threat to TIM's plans.

Modifié par Cheese Elemental, 27 juin 2010 - 10:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Obviously. That's why the Illusive Man deemed Shepard saving the Council the worst possible thing he could have done, and would never call Shepard a valuable asset to humanity regardless of his/her views on TIM and Cerberus.

OH, WAIT.



Annnnd Kahn remains Kahn with the typical Kahn levels of arguments that remain unchanged no matter how many times challenged. Expect to see them in another six pages or so.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 juin 2010 - 12:20 .

[shep82]

Personally I do both. If I'm a goody too shoes I say F you to the Illusive Man and blow it sky high. If I am a really evil bastard I give him the base.

[Dean_the_Young]

Strange.



When I'm out to save as many people as possible, I give the base to TIM.



When I'm on a vendetta to cause as much harm to humanity as possible to the Alliance as possible (call it issues after Mindoir and Akuze), I destroy it.

[bottledwater]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

bottledwater wrote...

why do people think cerberus is evil? cerberus is chaotic good. they want to save humanity by any means necessary.

Cerberus experimented on live subjects, including Rachni. They tried to make use of Dragon's Teeth (inhumane technology). They want to put humanity above every other race, at any cost.
Cerberus is Lawful Evil.

bottledwater wrote...

i personally trusted TIM, even after he send me to the collector ship to
get killed, because as someone points out in the game, why would he
spend that much money just to screw me over?

He probably had good intentions with the Collector ship trap, but in ME3, it's very likely that unless Shepard is explicity pro-human, he's far too idealistic and alien-friendly and therefore a threat to TIM's plans.

well we just have different perspective. you see, im not a big fan of aliens, i think humanity SHOULD be on top. also a terrorist organization isnt really "lawful". btw evil means selfish, cerberus is not selfish, cerberus is selfless, they spend all this money to protect the humanity who shuns them. thats chaotic good.

also, TIM will need shepard until the reapers are dealt with.

[Cheese Elemental]

bottledwater wrote...
also a terrorist organization isnt really "lawful". btw evil means selfish, cerberus is not selfish, cerberus is selfless, they spend all this money to protect the humanity who shuns them. thats chaotic good.

Evil does not mean 'selfish'. Hitler was evil no matter how you slice it, but he believed he was acting in his nation's best interests.

[didymos1120]

Cheese Elemental wrote...
They tried to make use of Dragon's Teeth (inhumane technology).

I'm no fan of the Teeth, but they're only inhumane if you acquire the required corpse by impaling a living victim on one. 

[shep82]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Strange.

When I'm out to save as many people as possible, I give the base to TIM.

When I'm on a vendetta to cause as much harm to humanity as possible to the Alliance as possible (call it issues after Mindoir and Akuze), I destroy it.

Everyone plays the game differently I guess.

[atheelogos]

shep82 wrote...

Personally I do both. If I'm a goody too shoes I say F you to the Illusive Man and blow it sky high. If I am a really evil bastard I give him the base.

How is giving him the base evil?

[BellaStrega]

atheelogos wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Personally I do both. If I'm a goody too shoes I say F you to the Illusive Man and blow it sky high. If I am a really evil bastard I give him the base.

How is giving him the base evil?

If you don't give a damn about the other races, and are down with the possibility of either a human dominated galaxy or outright open war with the other races, then giving him the base is just fine.

If, on the other hand, you're more interested in political and economic stability, and aren't down with racist human supremacist agendas, then yeah, giving him the base is pretty dodgy.

[BellaStrega]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Strange.

When I'm out to save as many people as possible, I give the base to TIM.

When I'm on a vendetta to cause as much harm to humanity as possible to the Alliance as possible (call it issues after Mindoir and Akuze), I destroy it.

You have this backwards or you're completely ignoring everything TIM says about his goals as well as everything you learn about Cerberus in both games.

Also, TIM doesn't condemn your choice to save the Council because saving or killing the Council isn't what was important to him. It's stopping the Reapers, and Shepard stopped one. TIM has a pretty long view, and he can deal with a living Council today if it means he can use Shepard to attain human supremacy in the future.

This also applies to stopping the Reapers. That's not the beginning and ending of TIM's goals. That's a necessary goal because TIM isn't an iconoclastic nihilist and doesn't want to see the end of civilization as everyone knows it. This is enlightened self-interest.

Once the Reapers are no longer a threat? Or even before the Reapers arrive? TIM will use that technology to gain dominance, to guarantee human dominance. This is virtually guaranteed to bring about a war between humanity and the other Citadel races, and that's not even account for the effects of the use of Reaper technology on humanity or the other races.

You're not looking at a choice where:

* Destroying the base means not having the resources and technology to fight the Reapers, thus resulting in massive loss of life
* Not destroying the base means having the resources and technology to fight the Reapers, thus resulting in minimal loss of life.

You're looking at a choice where you're trading off the benefits of Reaper technology against the consequences of TIM and Cerberus having the ability to build a Reaper, assuming the thing isn't full of traps like indoctrination or the IFF virus. It's possible that the cost of keeping the technology will exceed the benefits, and it's possible that it will be possible to fight off the Reapers without using their own technology against them.
,

[bottledwater]

shepard took down sovereign and the collectors, hell he will probably have to take down the reapers. the way i see it is

1) you give the base to cerberus and it helps the war against the reapers, after which cerberus acts responsibly and doesnt kill every other race

2) you give the base, win the war, but TIM goes all hitlery on everyone, then shepard will just clean up that mess. because if shepard can take down the collectors, he can take down cerberus.

[HTTP 404]

because if shepard got to keep the base most of us wouldnt blow it up. Instead we have to give it to Illusive man, Paragons would never do it because it "isnt right." Renegades would never do it because they are selfish and would do the "f you maaan" if I cant have it no one will!

[Cube404]

So the Illusive man can cry himself to sleep. Never liked him anyway, that meanieface.

[Costin_Razvan]

BellaStrega wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Personally I do both. If I'm a goody too shoes I say F you to the Illusive Man and blow it sky high. If I am a really evil bastard I give him the base.

How is giving him the base evil?

If you don't give a damn about the other races, and are down with the possibility of either a human dominated galaxy or outright open war with the other races, then giving him the base is just fine.

If, on the other hand, you're more interested in political and economic stability, and aren't down with racist human supremacist agendas, then yeah, giving him the base is pretty dodgy.

Stability cannot come as long as each party isn't equal. The Alliance will not have political power and will remain at the lower level of the food chain because of their weaker technology and weaker economy. Secondly open war? Laughable and downright idiotic to consider TIM would even do that.

And why should I give a damn about the other races? When they will give a **** about humanity then we can talk. Not saying I will go out of my way to harm them, but I will always choose humanity over any alien.

Cerberus IS NOT RACIST by the way. You don't know the difference between putting humanity at the top and hating other alien races, and yes there is one, a very big one actually.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 08:58 .

[bottledwater]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Personally I do both. If I'm a goody too shoes I say F you to the Illusive Man and blow it sky high. If I am a really evil bastard I give him the base.

How is giving him the base evil?

If you don't give a damn about the other races, and are down with the possibility of either a human dominated galaxy or outright open war with the other races, then giving him the base is just fine.

If, on the other hand, you're more interested in political and economic stability, and aren't down with racist human supremacist agendas, then yeah, giving him the base is pretty dodgy.

Stability cannot come as long as each party isn't equal. The Alliance will not have political power and will remain at the lower level of the food chain because of their weaker technology and weaker economy. Secondly open war? Laughable and downright idiotic to consider TIM would even do that.

And why should I give a damn about the other races? When they will give a **** about humanity then we can talk. Not saying I will go out of my way to harm them, but I will always choose humanity over any alien.

Cerberus IS NOT RACIST by the way. You don't know the difference between putting humanity at the top and hating other alien races, and yes there is one, a very big one actually.

this.

[Spornicus]

TIM is the only guy who can make unpopular or controversial choices for the betterment of humanity. While the council sits around doing nothing about colonies, it's Cerberus answering the call and investigating missing colonies. He knows that humanity has to be as powerful as possible for the inevitable reaper invasion. Sure, his methods may be unorthodox, but he's one of the smartest people in the galaxy; hell, he's kept Cerberus hidden while having an infinite wealth of knowledge. People like TIM keep the world in one piece in this world as well as the ME universe. Destroying the base, a base that was capable of building a reaper, is far too valuable to be destroyed The knowledge and highly advanced tech from that base could give not only the humans, but the entire galaxy, a fighting chance against the reapers. Also, it's 2185 and he smokes. How cool is that?



Of course, Bioware might just make his character look like a major power-hungry **** in ME3 and Shepard will have to kill him. Hopefully it won't come to that.

[atheelogos]

I don't see why so many people here think TIM would kill off all the other races if he had the chance. He want's humanity to be on top true, but is he given to genocide? I can't get there.



Remember Bioware said that TIM is the best and worst of humanity all rolled up into one man, don't overlook the good in him, even though it be hard to see. Also keep in my mind that we really don't know much about TIM outside of business. There may be another side to him that we've yet to see.



We should give bioware time to develop his character more before we start talking about hitler and mass murder.

[ResidentNoob]

atheelogos wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Personally I do both. If I'm a goody too shoes I say F you to the Illusive Man and blow it sky high. If I am a really evil bastard I give him the base.

How is giving him the base evil?

Because Bioware says so. Giving him the base is the lower choice on the dialogue wheel.

Bottom choice on the dialogue wheel =Renegade decision=What Bioware deems to be the more 'evil' of the two choices.

Whether you agree with Bioware's reasoning or not, you can't deny that it was intended by Bioware to be the more morally questionable option, given that Shepard still has a few distrustful comments to say about T.I.M even IF you keep the base, and the fact that every single squadmember tells you after the suicide mission that they think that It's a bad idea.

[Costin_Razvan]

Care to make more juvenile arguments, or are you done here?

Whether you agree with Bioware's reasoning or not, you can't deny that it was intended by Bioware to be the more morally questionable option

Actually I can, as there are many Paragon choices which can be questioned, even this one should you blow up the base. And the argument that Renegade is evil is irrelevant, as Renegade is NOT evil. Period.

and the fact that every single squadmember tells you after the suicide mission that they think that It's a bad idea.

And every single one of your squad mates, save for Legion and Grunt, that are alien are ALL biased because they feel Cerberus is an xenophobic organization. You can bet your ass that Tali would have no issue giving that base to the Flotila, or Mordin to the STG etc. etc.

As for Grunt and Legion, whatever they say afterward is unimportant, cause when you are making the choice BOTH of them suggest keeping the base.

Jacob is useless and Miranda is stuck at "dat ass" level. I do not think I need say how biased Jack is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 juin 2010 - 05:25 .

[Massadonious1]

atheelogos wrote...
We should give bioware time to develop his character more before we start talking about hitler and mass murder.

Then we should blame BioWare for giving us a bad impression of Cerberus in the first place.

If they were set up just as some shadowy, clandestine organization that we didn't know much about, it wouldn't be that polarizing. But, we were privy to the kind of experiments they were capable of, even from the very beginning. An entire psych profile background was set up with Cerberus in mind. Regardless of whether he was directly or indirectly involved in anything Cerberus has done, he is their de facto leader, and we were set up to despise him by association.

In the end, what were we supposed to think? Even if the kinds of things they did throughout the first game had logical or rational reasoning behind them, he was still feeding our own kind to gigantic poison spitting monsters, having Alliance generals whacked, and whatnot. Look at it this way, even if we didn't already know that Jabba the Hutt was some kind of ruthless gangster, what kind of impression would you glean from someone who feeds people to their pet Rancor for sport?

[FROST4584]

JockBuster wrote...

faction699 wrote...

I sat there for a good 5 minutes thinking about my choice, and decided to blow it up. There were quite a few factors:

-Miranda was with me and she encourages you to do it, despite being the most hardcore Cerberus member you have direct contact with other than the IM.
-I figured most of the squad would want me to destroy it, except maybe Legion. This turned out to work out well as pretty much all of them said in dialog they agreed with me, basically, except Legion and Garrus from what I remember.
-I saw it as a choice between the Alliance & Cerberus for ME3, and if that's the case, i'd sure as hell like to report to Anderson over the IM.
-Illusive Man sounded desperate to keep the facility when he ordered Miranda to obey him, leading me to believe he would use it for Bad Things.
-I was pretty disgusted with Cerberus at this point in the game anyway. Dead Scientists, Jacks Loyalty mission, etc. Wouldn't want to enable them anymore knowing how their experiments always end up.
-It's just screwed up, man.

I ALWAY blow it up (saved it one time, I listened to Grunt during TIM's plea to save it)! 
1. I HATE Cerberus (killed em ALL in ME1) and TIM especially (not a fan of Martin Sheen either).
2. "You can't trust Cerberus," Kaiden, Anderson and numerous others.
3. "Collector Base" actually is a Reaper Factory and NO way is Cerberus gonna get it's DIRTY hands on it.
4. Take Miranda and listen to the conversation.
5.Tell TIM that "I'm going to do it MY way with out sacraficing letting fear get in the way."
6. KEEPING the Normandy (killed off the Cerberus crew, EDI does just 99% anyway), quoting Grunt "We just killed THE most dangerous thing in the Galacy that lives US!" Jack wants you to go Pirate and live like a king. Garrus wants to stay on your "good" side. Legion is surprised that Shepard is like the True Geth.
7. Telling TIM that he s full of bulls**t and works for Shepard now.

I am sorry JockBuster but I have to say that you are so narrow minded when it comes to point number six. Wow, you killed off your crew because they wear Cerberus outfits.  By your logic , the crew should die because they tried to make a difference and help solve the mystery of the Collectors. Most of the crew joined Cerberus to stop the collectors , so you condem them to death, how sad. . Also don't you realize that EDI is Reaper tech? So you trust Reaper tech to handle The Normandy SR2?

Modifié par FROST4584, 30 juin 2010 - 09:09 .