3478 réponses à ce sujet

[pprrff]

People who kept the base assume that Cerbrus is helping humanity, to which I'd say it's a pretty big assumption. Cerbrus answer to TIM so basically he alone decides what humanities needs and doesn't need. Problem with Cerbrus is not just its methods, but also with its goals. Who's to say that TIM have humanity's interest at heart? He may bring the human race to become the ruler of the galaxy, but I bet he will be the ruler of humanity. Destroying the base isn't just for ethics, but it's also about not handing a huge cache of technology to a potential enemy.

[pprrff]

Massadonious1 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
We should give bioware time to develop his character more before we start talking about hitler and mass murder.

Then we should blame BioWare for giving us a bad impression of Cerberus in the first place.

If they were set up just as some shadowy, clandestine organization that we didn't know much about, it wouldn't be that polarizing. But, we were privy to the kind of experiments they were capable of, even from the very beginning. An entire psych profile background was set up with Cerberus in mind. Regardless of whether he was directly or indirectly involved in anything Cerberus has done, he is their de facto leader, and we were set up to despise him by association.

In the end, what were we supposed to think? Even if the kinds of things they did throughout the first game had logical or rational reasoning behind them, he was still feeding our own kind to gigantic poison spitting monsters, having Alliance generals whacked, and whatnot. Look at it this way, even if we didn't already know that Jabba the Hutt was some kind of ruthless gangster, what kind of impression would you glean from someone who feeds people to their pet Rancor for sport?

I think Bioware always had Cerbrus painted as evil, so you can't really blame them for making the evil guy look evil. ME2 morally ambigious as you work for the bad guys. Yeah there are good people in Cerbrus, but this only goes to show how TIM can manipulate perfectly honorable people to do his bidding. I find it a little hypocritical of TIM to be all of a sudden concerned about human colonies considering Cerbrus was responsible for turning an entire colony into husks in the 1st game. I definitely has some alterior motive to fight the collectors in ME2 that we are going to find out in the next game.

Modifié par pprrff, 30 juin 2010 - 09:42 .

[ArmeniusLOD]

I actually haven't destroyed the base yet in five games. My feeling is that the Reapers in their numbers and superior technology, the galaxy can use all the help it can get. As far as I'm concerned Shepard can take the fight to Cerberus at any time once the eminent threat is taken care of. TIM may have been using you, but I think of it as turning the tables and using TIM at the same time. Cerberus seems to be the only organization concerned with the Reapers that has the resources to help have a fighting chance in the coming apocalypse.

[atheelogos]

ResidentNoob wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Personally I do both. If I'm a goody too shoes I say F you to the Illusive Man and blow it sky high. If I am a really evil bastard I give him the base.

How is giving him the base evil?

Because Bioware says so. Giving him the base is the lower choice on the dialogue wheel.

Bottom choice on the dialogue wheel =Renegade decision=What Bioware deems to be the more 'evil' of the two choices.

Whether you agree with Bioware's reasoning or not, you can't deny that it was intended by Bioware to be the more morally questionable option, given that Shepard still has a few distrustful comments to say about T.I.M even IF you keep the base, and the fact that every single squadmember tells you after the suicide mission that they think that It's a bad idea.

I would argue that both decisions are morally questionable. The base may not be entirely good in nature, but if you do little evil to accomplish a greater good is that, is that not a good thing?

Using Reaper tech in ME2 has saved Shepard and his crew more than once. If Shep loses his fight aganist the Reapers because he didn't want to use all that was disposal, isn't that a bad thing?

Try not to look at this as a simple case of black and white/good and evil. With bioware it is never that simple.

Modifié par atheelogos, 01 juillet 2010 - 01:11 .

[atheelogos]

Massadonious1 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
We should give bioware time to develop his character more before we start talking about hitler and mass murder.

Then we should blame BioWare for giving us a bad impression of Cerberus in the first place.

If they were set up just as some shadowy, clandestine organization that we didn't know much about, it wouldn't be that polarizing. But, we were privy to the kind of experiments they were capable of, even from the very beginning. An entire psych profile background was set up with Cerberus in mind. Regardless of whether he was directly or indirectly involved in anything Cerberus has done, he is their de facto leader, and we were set up to despise him by association.

In the end, what were we supposed to think? Even if the kinds of things they did throughout the first game had logical or rational reasoning behind them, he was still feeding our own kind to gigantic poison spitting monsters, having Alliance generals whacked, and whatnot. Look at it this way, even if we didn't already know that Jabba the Hutt was some kind of ruthless gangster, what kind of impression would you glean from someone who feeds people to their pet Rancor for sport?

Hey I hear you good points on all counts, but something tells me that bioware isn't trying to write this as the simple good/evil. There is a lot of grey and the lighter side of the grey must be explored too. Thats all I'm saying.

[atheelogos]

ArmeniusLOD wrote...

I actually haven't destroyed the base yet in five games. My feeling is that the Reapers in their numbers and superior technology, the galaxy can use all the help it can get. As far as I'm concerned Shepard can take the fight to Cerberus at any time once the eminent threat is taken care of. TIM may have been using you, but I think of it as turning the tables and using TIM at the same time. Cerberus seems to be the only organization concerned with the Reapers that has the resources to help have a fighting chance in the coming apocalypse.

My feelings exactly good post.

[xlegionx]

the thing is, Bioware wouldn't make it impossible to defeat the Reapers without the base, and keeping it puts Cerberus in too much a powerful position after the Reapers were defeated

[CommanderTravis]

If you keep the base the illusive man will prolly use the base to make a new human reaper on our side to combat the reapers, sacrificing innocents to make it. If you keep the base you'll have a huge advantage on the reapers and a better chance to save the galaxy, but if you sacrifice all those innocents you sacrifice your humanity and is a galaxy like that what you really want? Thats how I see it anyway, and why I always destroy the base! Except on my pure renegade playthroughs though

Modifié par CommanderTravis, 01 juillet 2010 - 02:22 .

[pprrff]

Shandepared wrote...

I see no reason to believe that Cerberus isn't trying to help humanity. To those who doubt TIM's intentions I ask, "Why?" What has he done to make you think that he doesn't want humanity to succeed? Why do you think that Cerberus having the base is worse than no one having it? Do you honestly think Cerberus is going to help the Reapers?

I can't quite pin it down, it's kinda the way Cerbrus is presented that it is a secretive organization that have schemes I'd usually associate with Bond villains. For me, the reason I doubt TIM intention is that he wants to dominate. He may want human to dominate the galaxy, but its pretty clear he wants to dominate everyone. Also his willingness to sacrifice human lives (Overlord Project, using Horizon as a bait of collectors, and everything else in ME1) makes his speeches about how he cares about humanity bit hard to buy.

At the end, when he equates cerbrus dominance with human dominance, it begs the question what about humans who don't agrees with cerbrus? 

[DPSSOC]

CommanderTravis wrote...

If you keep the base the illusive man will prolly use the base to make a new human reaper on our side to combat the reapers,

 
Ok this is something I just don't understand.  Why would TIM do this?  To what end would he do this?  Even if he could build one without butchering the entire species what does he stand to gain?  One Reaper against potentially hundreds or thousands will not make a difference.  It's like saying men with swords and crossbows could beat the American military if they just got their hands on one tank.  I know TIM can be somewhat ruthless and his methods are questionable, but what you're proposing would require he be either pants on head retarded or bat **** insane.

CommanderTravis wrote...
If you keep the base you'll have a huge advantage on the reapers and a better chance to save the galaxy, but if you sacrifice all those innocents you sacrifice your humanity and is a galaxy like that what you really want?

 
Yes, yes, a million times yes.  If Cerberus, TIM, and myself have to sacrifice our humanity to save it I will gladly pay the price and count it cheap.

[Dman3003]

I destroyed the Collector base because i don't trust TIM. anyone who has read Mass Effect: Ascension would probably agree with me.



That and I am a pure Paragon

[atheelogos]

xlegionx wrote...

the thing is, Bioware wouldn't make it impossible to defeat the Reapers without the base, and keeping it puts Cerberus in too much a powerful position after the Reapers were defeated

Cerberus is strong but they're nothing compared to the Alliance. All Shepard has to do is tell the Alliance where the base is and how to get there and they can take it. TIM is smart. He knows he can't win in straight fight against that size of force. He would be forced to give up the base, though it would be reluctant.

[atheelogos]

CommanderTravis wrote...

If you keep the base the illusive man will prolly use the base to make a new human reaper on our side to combat the reapers, sacrificing innocents to make it. If you keep the base you'll have a huge advantage on the reapers and a better chance to save the galaxy, but if you sacrifice all those innocents you sacrifice your humanity and is a galaxy like that what you really want? Thats how I see it anyway, and why I always destroy the base! Except on my pure renegade playthroughs though

Travis did you know there are chemical weapons in the real world that can turn a human being into mush. Do you know why they work so well? It's because we know how the human body works. If you know how something works and what its made out of you not only know how to build it but you know how to unbuild it.

In other words its hard to kill a reaper because we know next to nothing about them or their making. But if we had insight into that process we could build better weapons to detroy the reaper shells. Thats what the base represents. You don't have to build another reaper like your suggesting. The blue prints are already in the base. We just need to read them is all.

[atheelogos]

pprrff wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I see no reason to believe that Cerberus isn't trying to help humanity. To those who doubt TIM's intentions I ask, "Why?" What has he done to make you think that he doesn't want humanity to succeed? Why do you think that Cerberus having the base is worse than no one having it? Do you honestly think Cerberus is going to help the Reapers?

I can't quite pin it down, it's kinda the way Cerbrus is presented that it is a secretive organization that have schemes I'd usually associate with Bond villains. For me, the reason I doubt TIM intention is that he wants to dominate. He may want human to dominate the galaxy, but its pretty clear he wants to dominate everyone. Also his willingness to sacrifice human lives (Overlord Project, using Horizon as a bait of collectors, and everything else in ME1) makes his speeches about how he cares about humanity bit hard to buy.

At the end, when he equates cerbrus dominance with human dominance, it begs the question what about humans who don't agrees with cerbrus? 

Your last question is interesting. Would you prefer the status quo? Should we forever be the little guy on the galactic scene? I would say there are plenty of Americans who don't agree with capitalism but they still benefit from the system. There may be humans, in the ME universe, who don't agree with a stronger military, or a stronger economy, but they will still reap the rewards and will be better for it.

Modifié par atheelogos, 01 juillet 2010 - 05:13 .

[pprrff]

atheelogos wrote...

pprrff wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I see no reason to believe that Cerberus isn't trying to help humanity. To those who doubt TIM's intentions I ask, "Why?" What has he done to make you think that he doesn't want humanity to succeed? Why do you think that Cerberus having the base is worse than no one having it? Do you honestly think Cerberus is going to help the Reapers?

I can't quite pin it down, it's kinda the way Cerbrus is presented that it is a secretive organization that have schemes I'd usually associate with Bond villains. For me, the reason I doubt TIM intention is that he wants to dominate. He may want human to dominate the galaxy, but its pretty clear he wants to dominate everyone. Also his willingness to sacrifice human lives (Overlord Project, using Horizon as a bait of collectors, and everything else in ME1) makes his speeches about how he cares about humanity bit hard to buy.

At the end, when he equates cerbrus dominance with human dominance, it begs the question what about humans who don't agrees with cerbrus? 

Your last question is interesting. Would you prefer the status quo? Should we forever be the little guy on the galactic scene? I would say there are plenty of Americans who don't agree with capitalism but they still benefit from the system. There may be humans, in the ME universe, who don't agree with a stronger military, or a stronger economy, but they will still reap the rewards and be better for it.

Well, what I was trying to get at is that Cerbrus is a small secretive society. You have a valid point there, but to use your analogy, most American do approve of capitalism, the communist/anarchist/whatever are a small minority. They do not dictate the policy of the US, nor should they. What if they decided that they know what's best for America and decided that they will perform covert activities to further their agenda? At least the alliance is a democracy (as far as we know) and its policy represent the consensus of the human race (maybe). 

Modifié par pprrff, 01 juillet 2010 - 05:10 .

[atheelogos]

DPSSOC wrote...

CommanderTravis wrote...

If you keep the base the illusive man will prolly use the base to make a new human reaper on our side to combat the reapers,

 
Ok this is something I just don't understand.  Why would TIM do this?  To what end would he do this?  Even if he could build one without butchering the entire species what does he stand to gain?  One Reaper against potentially hundreds or thousands will not make a difference.  It's like saying men with swords and crossbows could beat the American military if they just got their hands on one tank.  I know TIM can be somewhat ruthless and his methods are questionable, but what you're proposing would require he be either pants on head retarded or bat **** insane.

CommanderTravis wrote...
If you keep the base you'll have a huge advantage on the reapers and a better chance to save the galaxy, but if you sacrifice all those innocents you sacrifice your humanity and is a galaxy like that what you really want?

 
Yes, yes, a million times yes.  If Cerberus, TIM, and myself have to sacrifice our humanity to save it I will gladly pay the price and count it cheap.

I agree. Weigh the cost. Millions of people versus trillions. The answer should clear

[pprrff]

Just to clarify my point, I am not against keeping the base, I am just oppose to giving it to Cerbrus. If I had the option of handing to the council or the alliance, I would have taken that root. But since its between Cerbrus or destroy it, I pick the latter.

[atheelogos]

pprrff wrote...

Just to clarify my point, I am not against keeping the base, I am just oppose to giving it to Cerbrus. If I had the option of handing to the council or the alliance, I would have taken that root. But since its between Cerbrus or destroy it, I pick the latter.

I hear you. The thought of giving the base to TIM gave me pause, and I too would have given the base to the Alliance if the choice was available. But at the same time it's not like they wont know about it. Shepard has to report back to Anderson and the council so they will find out sooner or later, and I'm sure they will make moves to reclaim it.

Modifié par atheelogos, 01 juillet 2010 - 05:28 .

[atheelogos]

Shandepared wrote...

If you're not against keeping the base then you should settle for giving it to Cerberus. Cerberus having the base is better than nobody having the base.

That reasoning sounds like "I would rather have one and not need it than need it and not have one" I agree with that outlook.

[Captain Jazz]

If you were asked to give a nuclear bomb to terrorists, would you do it?

That's why I destroy the collector base. Sure, Cerberus care about humanity not being wiped from the galaxy, but they're also power hungry terrorist maniacs with absolutely no ethical scruples or sense... and the collector base looks a helluva lot like a nuke to me.

[pprrff]

I guess it boils down to how we fundamentally view Cerbrus. You guys look at a potential ally that will help you against the reaper, so keeping the base makes perfect sense. While I see an emerging threat that needs to be dealt with in order to unite everyone in the galaxy to fight the reaper, so to me giving them the base is like shooting yourself in the foot.



Guess we will wait and see how thing play out in the next game.

[N7Recon]

Well there's an interesting substitution/positioning problem in Cerberus' purpose being to 'preserve humanity'.

A. Cerberus exists for the advancement and preservation of humanity
B. "Cerberus IS humanity"
thus...
C1. Cerberus exists for the advancement and preservation of Cerberus
alternatively...
C2. Humanity exists for the advancement and preservation of Cerberus*

Given their track record it's clear that Cerberus does not view all humans as equal or worth preserving. Some will be sacrificed for others whenever Cerberus (TIM) decides it's worth it.

Under this sort of logic, the preservation of Cerberus becomes the preservation of humanity because Cerberus is a human-centric organization. So long as enough Cerberus operators, agents, and affiliates survive...humanity as a species will be preserved as a happy side effect.  I don't think it's an obvious assumption that Cerberus has an equitable conception of 'preserving humanity', unlike the Systems Alliance (presumably).

It's like saying "we're preserving humanity by protecting Canada at all costs". The other ~7 billion humans can die if it comes to that, but so long as Canada makes it (and as a side effect 30 million people) we can brag that we're "preserving humanity". 


*obviously there is a third option, "humanity exists for the advancement and preservation of humanity" but this would eliminate Cerberus from the equation.

--------

Of course the easy fix is simply to save pre-suicide mission and create two saves...one where you save the base and one where you destroy it.

Modifié par N7Recon, 01 juillet 2010 - 06:15 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Captain Jazz wrote...

If you were asked to give a nuclear bomb to terrorists, would you do it?
That's why I destroy the collector base. Sure, Cerberus care about humanity not being wiped from the galaxy, but they're also power hungry terrorist maniacs with absolutely no ethical scruples or sense... and the collector base looks a helluva lot like a nuke to me.

Ok, if anyone needed a perfect example of a strawman fallacy, well, here you go.