3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

Smajdak wrote...

(And by the way - I believe that story writers in Bioware think the same - after all, no one except Illusive Man agrees with preserving the base. And almost everything Legion says is against it).

I'm quite sure there are a few other characters who are for the base, but that's irrelevant. (And why you brought that up I have no idea, unless you were just listening to whatever your teammates were saying, and concoted a ridiculous argument that has no basis of reasoning aside from wild speculation.)

And there are indeed squadmates who are for keeping the Base. Including Legion. He says something like: "this station may save lives."

[smudboy]

Smajdak wrote...
Sigh, not Mass Relay like tech, just anything that would allow travelling across huge distances in reasonable amount of time. Again - I have no idea how.

Much like your entire argument.

It is makes sense to asume that progress has to end somewhere.Or you think that there will always be something new, something we do not know?

Reapers have been around for at LEAST 38 millions years. They are hyperinteligent race. They have fought countless wars. Do you actually think that some data from a space station can show us some weakness? These hyperinteligent machines had 38 milions years to think about it. It is probable that they have found and corrected most of the weaknesses they had. And those which they had not, those were probably already exploited in some war, thus discovered and after that corrected.

Hmm.  It just might.  But I'll put my money on a real thing that's right there as opposed to your potentially better technology theory that has no physical basis whatsoever, and exists purely in your brain, which as we know, has nothing to do with reason or logic.

It is also probable that pigs will evole to fly.

You're making my argument for me.  "They're so old, how can we BEGIN to understand them with the base they themselves created that builds themselves?  What could be possibly learn?"  Gee, I don't know...

EDI says that AI with superior hardware wins - Reapers have superior hardware. Again - At least 300 Sovereign sized ships ready to destroy us. We wouldn't be even able to make 10 of them before their arrival. Maybe not even one.
About that possible technology - how about that quarian research about stars blowing up? What if we could learn how to blow up a star in a few minutes? We would just have to lure entire Reaper fleet into one system and blow up that star. Do you think that we would have got that technology from collector base? Hardly. And if quarians would get their hands on reaper schematics, you can bet that they would stop research about some star and start thinking about how to integrate reaper technology into the fleet.

Yes, and EDI is based on Reapers.  So here we are, taking our advice, from a piece of Reaper technology.  Which you must destroy!  Aren't you feeling a little hypocritical now?  Keep in mind EDI is not a Reaper.  But she can potentially turn on us.  Best to destroy her/it/whatever, before something-something rips a hole and kills my immortal horse, because that immortal horse can't kill other immortal horses, unless we outnumber it with superior immortal horses.

And now you're speculating on other strategies.  That's great.  That has nothing to do with the argumnent of keeping the base.

About party members - all of them disagree with your decision after you keep it - I know it, just did it today. Some of them think it is right to keep it inside the base, however, once you get out, everyone says that you made the wrong choice.
And the reason I mentioned that is that opinion of Bioware story writers is only opinion that matters. And I think that they are "subtly" encouraging us to destroy the base.

So they're reasoning is "we (subtly) said so", therefore, do it?

Oh, then I say don't do it.  There.  My argument is just as equal.  Huzzah.

[Zulu_DFA]

Smajdak wrote...



It is makes sense to asume that progress has to end somewhere.Or you think that there will always be something new, something we do not know?

No, it makes no sense, and yes, there'll always be something we don't know.



You see for the Man (or even the Reaper), who is a part of the Universe, the whole of the Universe is not fully intelligible.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Thinking about it other day, well, it could very well lead to indocrination again depending on how much developed the reaper larva was. The derelict reaper was supposedly dead and all of the Cerberus scientists became got indocrinated and in the end husks and scions. This could very well happen again on the Collector Base. It's not likely but possible. Also, being the reaper larva human based what other variations of reaper based mutations could happen or even in the end the reaper being completed. This could be a likely scenario on ME3 for those who kept the base.

So my Shepard did the right thing in the end. Suck it renegades.

Ok, that end was a joke. But you get the theory.

[onotix]

i blew it up because my shepard is oppositional and has to do the opposite of whatever TIM says.

[lovgreno]

smudboy wrote...
Hmm.  It just might.  But I'll put my money on a real thing that's right there as opposed to your potentially better technology theory that has no physical basis whatsoever, and exists purely in your brain, which as we know, has nothing to do with reason or logic.

"You are stupid"  is what is often boils down to for you isnt it? Does it makes you feel smarter to say others are stupid?
Let's not risk this deteriorating into a flame war please. Leave the insults (that proves nothing anyway) out of this please.

[smudboy]

lovgreno wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Hmm.  It just might.  But I'll put my money on a real thing that's right there as opposed to your potentially better technology theory that has no physical basis whatsoever, and exists purely in your brain, which as we know, has nothing to do with reason or logic.

"You are stupid"  is what is often boils down to for you isnt it? Does it makes you feel smarter to say others are stupid?
Let's not risk this deteriorating into a flame war please. Leave the insults (that proves nothing anyway) out of this please.

If you've never heard of something, then you are ignorant.
If you don't understand something, then you are stupid.  The only one calling anyone stupid is you.

In this case, the gentleman's argument doesn't exist, or is based on fallacies; as such, whatever understandings he has is based on his thoughts alone, and reside purely in his imagination, in a series of what ifs...

...if you were paying attention.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Right, and trying to beat the hyper-advanced Reapers with their own technology is SO much better. Independence Day much?

Hey Shepherd! Will Smith wants his 'fro back!

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 07 juillet 2010 - 01:14 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Evens the playing field? Please. You can give the Germans in 1939 a present-day US Air Force Base, give them 10 years to study it, and they would STILL lose in a fight against the 2010 US Air Force.



And that's a technology gap of what, 60 years? How old are the Reapers again? You honestly think we can overcome that kind of technological discrepancy in Shepherd's lifetime?



Trying to claim that keeping the base is "reasonable"...we have dismissed that claim.

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Evens the playing field? Please. You can give the Germans in 1939 a present-day US Air Force Base, give them 10 years to study it, and they would STILL lose in a fight against the 2010 US Air Force.

And that's a technology gap of what, 60 years? How old are the Reapers again? You honestly think we can overcome that kind of technological discrepancy in Shepherd's lifetime?

Trying to claim that keeping the base is "reasonable"...we have dismissed that claim.

Thanix Cannons (Turians reverse engineered Sovereign's main gun)
EDI (Cerberus created an AI with anti-Reaper protocols)
Thermal Clips (recovered from the Geth)
IFF (37 million year old Reaper tech recovered from a dead Reaper and installed into the SR2)

Completely unreasonable.

[FourSixEight]

Even if the Illusive Man is able to reverse-engineer the station, and that's a big if, you're still taking the chance that it might backfire somehow, violently, not to mention the fact that you're still giving the Collector station to someone who's proven time and time again that he cannot be trusted to handle that kind of technology. Case in point- David Archer and the Derelict Reaper incident.

[smudboy]

FourSixEight wrote...

Even if the Illusive Man is able to reverse-engineer the station, and that's a big if, you're still taking the chance that it might backfire somehow, violently, not to mention the fact that you're still giving the Collector station to someone who's proven time and time again that he cannot be trusted to handle that kind of technology. Case in point- David Archer and the Derelict Reaper incident.

I don't think reverse engineering the whole thing is the right concept.  It could simply be a storehouse of data and specs on Reapers.  Can't see how building a giant mech would have any functional or practical use if reverse engineered; actually that's super-comical.

If something goes wrong, you can always blow it up later.

And I don't think we can trust TIM.  But you can trust his faith in Shepard.

Additionally, I fail to see how the Derelict Reaper incident is TIM's fault (or Pragia, or Overlord).  In fact, TIM wasn't made aware of the happenstance of those projects.  So he can't be directly responsible for many of Cerberus's cells: which is odd, as I expected TIM to be the morally gray character with "ends justifying the means".  Instead, he's just unaware, and is merely calculating, but not unethical; although he does believe sacrifices must be made for the greater good.  It is made rather clear that those in charge of the cells are merely pressured to do unethical things, or not given enough oversight by TIM.

[Nightwriter]

Say whatever you like.

The repetitive anyone-ambitious-who-screws-with-Reaper-tech-gets-f*cked theme of the game rarely follows logic.

[Braag]

I don't think leaving a base like that in the hands of Cerberus is a very good idea. In the long run it will most likely just cause more trouble.

Modifié par Braag, 07 juillet 2010 - 03:22 .

[SithLordExarKun]

Im more concerned what TIM is going to do with the base rather than what the base may do to those who kept.



Hopefully we don't get a dumb email about it in the next game.

[smudboy]

Braag wrote...

I don't think leaving a base like that in the hands of Cerberus is a very good idea. In the long run it will most likely just cause more trouble.

And in the short run it'll provide potential victory and potentially advance technology, possibly in the similar way the Mass Relays did, as opposed to the cyclic galactic destruction?

If the immediate concern is galactic survival, very few other considerations seem important.

[Dark Penitant]

thank you! finally someone who else who doesnt get why people consistantly blow up the base!

Anyway, i actually would trust the illusive man with the disabled base. I think that TIM is callous, (somewhat) nihilistic, and is an utter genius, i still think that he has humanity's best goals in heart. now there is a possiblity that he has already been suboerned by the Reapers, and that is why he keeps the base, it is unlikely given teh length of time he has been heading Cerberus (indoctrination lasts 4-5 years at the very most). I think that even in that absence of new tech, which i doubt, i think that the information reserves more than warrent the base being kept. while the Reapers may have left traps, even the information is worth the lives of a few cerberus scientists. Also, the danger of indoctrination is low after the derelict reaper. which, BTW, wasnt cerberus' fault. Even dead gods can dream, remember? An impossible to predict scenario that wasnt really disasterous at all. finally, who would trust the Citadle with the base? i mean really, there is no way to move it past the Omega 4 Relay, and teh normandy is the only ship that can go through due to teh IFF. So even w omni-tool capture, i really doubt that there are no doctored videos/images. Since there would be no physical proof, denaiability would quickly ensue. After all, they thought Sovereign was geth technology. the collector base could be easily described as teh same, if its existance was admitted at all

[Smajdak]

smudboy wrote...

You're making my argument for me. "They're so old, how can we BEGIN to understand them with the base they themselves created that builds themselves? What could be possibly learn?" Gee, I don't know...

You can only learn that they have no weakness at all, What good would that do? Best you could learn is everything abou them, which is still not enough.

smudboy wrote...



Yes, and EDI is based on Reapers. So here we are, taking our advice, from a piece of Reaper technology. Which you must destroy! Aren't you feeling a little hypocritical now? Keep in mind EDI is not a Reaper. But she can potentially turn on us. Best to destroy her/it/whatever, before something-something rips a hole and kills my immortal horse, because that immortal horse can't kill other immortal horses, unless we outnumber it with superior immortal horses.

EDI is not based on Reapers. All she has are anti-reaper protocols, which are there by using parts of Sovereign. AI was done by Cerberus or Synthetic Insights or I don't know by who. But EDI has only one very specific piece of equipment, which is usable only against reapers. That is not the same as keeping a base which might be full of reaper technology. The same goes for any technology recovered from Sovereign - it is used only in some areas. If you would recovered Reaper schematics, people would focus only on Reaper schematics. While if you get only some small parts of Reapers, you integrate them into your systems and then keep upgrading other areas.

And now you're speculating on other strategies. That's great. That has nothing to do with the argumnent of keeping the base.

What? I am speculating on strategy that could destroy the Reapers, strategy which does not depend on having Reaper schematics and which wouldn't be possible if you kept the base, because you would focus only on integrating Reaper tech into your own and you would never come up with that. Well, no, you could, but only if quarians never knew about the base. However, if Cerberus keeps the base for themselves, it is useless, because Crberus is just one organization and they can not make an army capable of standing against the Reapers. Well, all galactic civilizations together couldn't do it, but they would have better chance.

So they're reasoning is "we (subtly) said so", therefore, do it?



Oh, then I say don't do it. There. My argument is just as equal. Huzzah.

No. You are just you. Bioware story writers are gods of ME universe. It actually doesn't really matter if you are right or not. You could be absolutely right and I could be complete idiot, but if Bioware story writers think the same way I do, that is all that matters.

[Ieldra]

Dark Penitant wrote...
thank you! finally someone who else who doesnt get why people consistantly blow up the base!

Finally? There have been several people who have consistently argued that keeping the base is the only strategically reasonable way to act, in spite of the danger posed by giving it to TIM. Myself included. It's only that I - and probably others - don't like to repeat myself a hundred times in the face of arguments that seem to more fueled more by moral indignation than strategy. 

Anyway, i actually would trust the illusive man with the disabled base. I think that TIM is callous, (somewhat) nihilistic, and is an utter genius, i still think that he has humanity's best goals in heart. now there is a possiblity that he has already been suboerned by the Reapers, and that is why he keeps the base, it is unlikely given teh length of time he has been heading Cerberus (indoctrination lasts 4-5 years at the very most).

I'd not be so sure of that. The game hints that Cerberus policies have changed recently, pointing to a possible change in leadership. The suspicion of recent indoctrination is not too far-fetched.

I think that even in that absence of new tech, which i doubt, i think that the information reserves more than warrent the base being kept.

The fact that we have absolutely no idea of the technology contained in the base, apart from the fact that it served the purpose of building a Reaper, already makes it a strategic necessity to keep it intact. It's unfortunate that the only option is to leave it in the hands of an untrustworthy ally, but the only convincing reason to destroy it would be to deny it from being used by the enemy. And the only enemy that matters for now, everyone needs to be reminded, is the Reapers, not Cerberus.

Also, the danger of indoctrination is low after the derelict reaper. which, BTW, wasnt cerberus' fault. Even dead gods can dream, remember? An impossible to predict scenario that wasnt really disasterous at all.

You don't know the danger of indoctrination. But it should be possible to monitor those who examine the stuff. The derelict Reaper shows that at the very least, any research base should not be set up inside a Reaper. On the other side, the Collector base is no Reaper. In the end, we don't know, and that means the researchers have to be careful to the point of paranoia.

finally, who would trust the Citadle with the base? i mean really, there is no way to move it past the Omega 4 Relay, and teh normandy is the only ship that can go through due to teh IFF. So even w omni-tool capture, i really doubt that there are no doctored videos/images. Since there would be no physical proof, denaiability would quickly ensue. After all, they thought Sovereign was geth technology. the collector base could be easily described as teh same, if its existance was admitted at all

Another thing we don't know: are the council idiots or are they hiding their activity. if I could give the base to the Alliance, I would. I don't know if I'd give it to the Council. Again, too much we don't know. But that doesn't change the fact that keeping the base is the only strategically reasonable option. The only strong argument for destroying it implies that Cerberus is a worse enemy than the Reapers.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 juillet 2010 - 10:28 .

[Nightwriter]

smudboy wrote...

Braag wrote...

I don't think leaving a base like that in the hands of Cerberus is a very good idea. In the long run it will most likely just cause more trouble.

And in the short run it'll provide potential victory and potentially advance technology, possibly in the similar way the Mass Relays did, as opposed to the cyclic galactic destruction?

If the immediate concern is galactic survival, very few other considerations seem important.

When I destroy the base, I am thinking only of short-term concerns (and nothing at all of morality, which doesn't enter into the equation at all for me).

[smudboy]

Smajdak wrote...
You can only learn that they have no weakness at all, What good would that do? Best you could learn is everything abou them, which is still not enough.

Because figuring out how to build something, could not possibly make us understand how how to destroy that something, all because in your tiny little mind, Reaper = have no weakness at all.

Even though we defeated Sovereign.

Even though we foiled Harbinger's plan.

I mean, really.  Where are you getting this crap?

EDI is not based on Reapers. All she has are anti-reaper protocols, which are there by using parts of Sovereign. AI was done by Cerberus or Synthetic Insights or I don't know by who. But EDI has only one very specific piece of equipment, which is usable only against reapers. That is not the same as keeping a base which might be full of reaper technology. The same goes for any technology recovered from Sovereign - it is used only in some areas. If you would recovered Reaper schematics, people would focus only on Reaper schematics. While if you get only some small parts of Reapers, you integrate them into your systems and then keep upgrading other areas.

As usual, once again, par for the course, you are wrong:
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/EDI

"EDI also gains access to "Anti-Reaper Algorithms" later in the game,
and states that she devotes significant processing power to analyzing
them. When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope
to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she
was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself."

What? I am speculating on strategy that could destroy the Reapers, strategy which does not depend on having Reaper schematics and which wouldn't be possible if you kept the base, because you would focus only on integrating Reaper tech into your own and you would never come up with that. Well, no, you could, but only if quarians never knew about the base. However, if Cerberus keeps the base for themselves, it is useless, because Crberus is just one organization and they can not make an army capable of standing against the Reapers. Well, all galactic civilizations together couldn't do it, but they would have better chance.

So you're speculating on strategy that could destroy the Reapers, that doesn't depend on Reaper schematics. (Oh, that'll work real well.)

You're also speculating that focusing on integrating Reaper tech into your own tech would/wouldn't be possible if you kept the base.  (What?)

But this is only possible if Quarians knew about the base.  (Why?)

But, if Cerberus keeps the base totally for themselves, it would be useless, because Cerberus is just one organization, and they can not make an army capable of standing against the Reapers.  (The assumption that again, base = direct military applications, in your fantasy world of Reaper ships, or something.)

Additionally, all galactic civilizations together couldn't do it anyway, but they would have a better chance.

There are no words.

+ +  + = My reacton to you, constantly.

No. You are just you. Bioware story writers are gods of ME universe. It actually doesn't really matter if you are right or not. You could be absolutely right and I could be complete idiot, but if Bioware story writers think the same way I do, that is all that matters.

And if they think the same way I do, that is all that matters.

I mean c'mon, this cannot be part of your argument.  I mean it's the only thing that makes sense, but simply because the argument could be about anything.  But we're not talking about writers think, we're talking about your...crazy...insane...reasoning.  Stuff.  That I still don't get.  Nor think I will.  But hey it's fun to read.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Braag wrote...

I don't think leaving a base like that in the hands of Cerberus is a very good idea. In the long run it will most likely just cause more trouble.

And in the short run it'll provide potential victory and potentially advance technology, possibly in the similar way the Mass Relays did, as opposed to the cyclic galactic destruction?

If the immediate concern is galactic survival, very few other considerations seem important.

When I destroy the base, I am thinking only of short-term concerns (and nothing at all of morality, which doesn't enter into the equation at all for me).

Quiet, you flying policecar thing!  You don't have the balls to fly that thing into a wall, so you blow up bases and stuff!

[KarmaTheAlligator]

When you destroy the base you don't destroy whatever information is on it since EDI retrieved it anyway, you only decide that Cerberus shouldn't be trusted with it.