3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Aggie Punbot]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Why is it I see more Paragon-bashing Renegades than Renegade-bashing Paragons?

Because bashing people is a renegade action?

[Massadonious1]

Why do people have opinions?



WHRRRYYYYY?

[lovgreno]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Why do people have opinions?

WHRRRYYYYY?

It's just because we can.

[Nightwriter]

Well at first my reason was "I don't trust the Illusive Man"...

But recently I changed it to, "To ****** Shand off."

I feel both are equally admissible.

[ThisIsMadness91]

TS2Aggie wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Why is it I see more Paragon-bashing Renegades than Renegade-bashing Paragons?

Because bashing people is a renegade action?

Nice.

[Christmas Ape]

They mistake your being called on to wipe out a couple of failed projects in the first game for a habitual and endemic incompetence, as well as taking Jacob's "they've been called terrorists, and with good reason" at face value, despite a lack of actual terrorist activity as opposed to research with the safety off.

And because explosions.

[Nightwriter]

Well, it is testimony from one of Cerberus's own agents that they've engaged in terrorism.

But anyway, I fail to see what that has to do with TIM's overall untrustworthiness, which is why most paragons destroy the base.

[Collider]

I destroyed the base because

1) Reaper technology like that is dangerous.

2) No, Thanix Cannon is the not same thing as technology that can turn people into paste for human baby reaper food

3) Cerberus is a terrorist organization who



a) has had sects that have done horrible experiments, including rachni and thorian mind control is either lying or does a horrible, stupid job of watching what it's members does

c) has an ends to the means approach

d) is human supremacist

e) did I mention they tried mind control?



4) Mind Control Technology + Cerberus = Bad

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Collider wrote...

I destroyed the base because
1) Reaper technology like that is dangerous.
2) No, Thanix Cannon is the not same thing as technology that can turn people into paste for human baby reaper food
3) Cerberus is a terrorist organization who

a) has had sects that have done horrible experiments, including rachni and thorian mind control is either lying or does a horrible, stupid job of watching what it's members does
c) has an ends to the means approach
d) is human supremacist
e) did I mention they tried mind control?

4) Mind Control Technology + Cerberus = Bad

I agree completely!

[Christmas Ape]

An agent who freely admits he'll quit at the drop of a hat the moment they involve him in something he doesn't approve of (like he has everything else). They might well not give him the full story behind some of the projects. Detonate a ship's drive core to spread dust-form Element Zero? Looks like an attack if you're not on the Cerberus Biotics Research Team.



You can mistrust a man but not his motives, or vice versa. At the end of the day they're on your side, even if you're not on theirs, because your bloodlines come up from Earth. Will he send you into a known trap to extract necessary information? Certainly. But it's for humanity. I wouldn't trust him, ever, but it's not like you just tie a bow around it and hand him the keys. You still have the IFF, and at the moment it's the only one - who else is going to take a research team to the base, giving you the chance to vet each of them in turn with the potential aid of a well-placed information broker? If you're pro-Council in the "we need to get totally on board with this" I can see wiping it out, but otherwise? Destroy it if you're concerned about indoctrination, otherwise it's a valuable resource even if the only thing you get out of it is a power source capable of powering the Collector Cruiser DEW.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Christmas Ape wrote...

An agent who freely admits he'll quit at the drop of a hat the moment they involve him in something he doesn't approve of (like he has everything else). They might well not give him the full story behind some of the projects. Detonate a ship's drive core to spread dust-form Element Zero? Looks like an attack if you're not on the Cerberus Biotics Research Team.

You can mistrust a man but not his motives, or vice versa. At the end of the day they're on your side, even if you're not on theirs, because your bloodlines come up from Earth. Will he send you into a known trap to extract necessary information? Certainly. But it's for humanity. I wouldn't trust him, ever, but it's not like you just tie a bow around it and hand him the keys. You still have the IFF, and at the moment it's the only one - who else is going to take a research team to the base, giving you the chance to vet each of them in turn with the potential aid of a well-placed information broker? If you're pro-Council in the "we need to get totally on board with this" I can see wiping it out, but otherwise? Destroy it if you're concerned about indoctrination, otherwise it's a valuable resource even if the only thing you get out of it is a power source capable of powering the Collector Cruiser DEW.

TIM's motives are kinda vague to me. I need full on details before I will trust him.

[Nightwriter]

Christmas Ape wrote...

You can mistrust a man but not his motives, or vice versa.

I want to know if people agree with this. Collider, what do you think?

Christmas Ape wrote...

At the end of the day they're on your side, even if you're not on theirs, because your bloodlines come up from Earth. Will he send you into a known trap to extract necessary information? Certainly. But it's for humanity. I wouldn't trust him, ever, but it's not like you just tie a bow around it and hand him the keys. You still have the IFF, and at the moment it's the only one - who else is going to take a research team to the base, giving you the chance to vet each of them in turn with the potential aid of a well-placed information broker? If you're pro-Council in the "we need to get totally on board with this" I can see wiping it out, but otherwise? Destroy it if you're concerned about indoctrination, otherwise it's a valuable resource even if the only thing you get out of it is a power source capable of powering the Collector Cruiser DEW.

Ape I feel like I am really handing him the keys. I'm flying around in his ship, for Christ's sake. He's in total control of the whole ME2 operation. He tells you you're free to make your own calls, but if those calls seriously conflcted with his goals, do you really think he'd let you make them?

I just don't want people to choose to keep the base because of the illusion of control.

[Collider]

I want to know if people agree with this. Collider, what do you think?

I distrust TIM/Cerberus's

a) character <-- Deceitful and always holding back information

motives <-- Human supremacy

c) methods <-- Ends justify the means, Mind control, horrible experiments on children.



If you're asking whether I can distrust someone but not distrust their motives, yes that is possible. However, I distrust TIM and distrust his motives.

[lovgreno]

Nightwriter wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

You can mistrust a man but not his motives, or vice versa.

I want to know if people agree with this. Collider, what do you think?

TIM says that Shepard can not understand his motives. He never explains his methods or motives to anyone. A man and his motives are not different things, anything a man does or thinks strongly influence everything else he does or thinks.

[archurban]

no matter what you do for last mission, collector base will be blown up anyway. why the hell don't you want to destroy it? some of you misunderstand. illusive man wants to adept reaper technology, didn't say not to destroy collector base.

[wolfstanus]

Because in the first game a Soverin said that they left tech around so that alien races would go down a predictable path so they can be destroyed. so I said huh keeping it would mean the reapers would know what was done etc and cerberus screws up so much I was there for a second thinking if I keep it we sell out and do what the reapers want anyways. I keep it cerberus will screw up (yet again) and doom everybody. I destroyed it. Also based on what I know from ME1-2 and the books/comics. Cerberus and TIM are like future ****s in a way.

Modifié par wolfstanus, 02 juin 2010 - 09:41 .

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...

He doesn't say you can't understand him or his motives; he tells you not to judge them.

Yet he doesn't dare explaining anything. What is he hiding? Something good or bad? After Jacobs loyalty mission he says that Sheard can not understand him or his motives. But it's true that that Cerberus and TIM thinks they are above anyones judgment so they can do whatever they please in the name of humanity. "Whatever it takes Shepard"

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

I distrust TIM/Cerberus's
a) character
motives
c) methods

If you're asking whether I can distrust someone but not distrust their motives, yes that is possible. However, I distrust TIM and distrust his motives.

I was more asking you if you agree that it is impossible to distrust a man and his motives at the same time, as the poster was suggesting.

It sounds like your answer is that you do not agree. I agree with your disagreement.

[Ieldra]

There are basically two reasons why people destroy the base:

(1) They find the risks (what TIM might do with it, indoctrination) greater than the possible benefits (a better understanding of the enemy, adapting technology).
(2) They let their decision be influenced by the disgust at what has happened there ("no good ever comes from that", "it feels like a betrayal").

Since reason is the slave of the passions (David Hume), I suspect that many people argue with (1) while really being motivated by (2). This, btw, may also apply to us who argue for keeping the base: we may argue that the benefits outweigh the risks, but I really couldn't say how much I'm influenced by what I also feel with the strength of a moral imperative: you don't destroy knowledge. Period.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 juin 2010 - 10:57 .

[Massadonious1]

Shandepared wrote...

archurban wrote...

no matter what you do for last mission, collector base will be blown up anyway. why the hell don't you want to destroy it? some of you misunderstand. illusive man wants to adept reaper technology, didn't say not to destroy collector base.

That is very eloquently put, thank you.

Eh, Shandepared is a pretty cool guy. Makes ironic forum posts, and isn't afraid of anything.

[Icinix]

Why?



To ****** TIM off.



That guy is a manipulative jerk. Suck my resurrected noodle you phsycho.

[Nightwriter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There are basically two reasons why people destroy the base:

(1) They find the risks (what TIM might do with it, indoctrination) greater than the possible benefits (a better understanding of the enemy, adapting technology).
(2) They let their decision be influenced by the disgust at what has happened there ("no good ever comes from that", "it feels like a betrayal").

Since reason is the slave of the passions (David Hume), I suspect that many people argue with (1) while really being motivated by (2). This, btw, may also apply to us who argue for keeping the base: we may argue that the benefits outweigh the risks, but I really couldn't say how much I'm influenced by what I also feel with the strength of a moral imperative: you don't destroy knowledge. Period.

A reasonable and fair summation. Very good.

I rather can't help but consider how it applies to myself. My strongest natural emotional instinct was to keep the base. Because of the power it might grant. So I suppose that power had emotional sway over me as well.

Another strong emotional instinct that came into play was my distrust for TIM. Hmm. Is distrust an emotion? Is suspicion an emotion? All I know is disgust for what happened there or "this is a betrayal" never came into play for me at all. Foreboding, however, very much did.