3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Smajdak]

smudboy wrote...

...(Hell, we can argue we can learn how to make a ME core like a Reapers from the base, and make those Thanix cannons you so think are inferior to Reaper weapons, but that's speculation.)...

It is not that difficult to make that big cores. The problem is with eezo. Where do you want to get that much eezo? Building one ship would be next to impossible. Building an entire fleet of those ships? Completely impossible.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

1. The Protheans, wise and peaceful scientists, were the ones who studied that technolgoy. The Illusive Man is much more irresponsible and his motives much more dangerous.

The former is debatable and the last is wrong. The Illusive Man's intentions are to save humanity from the Reapers. What more could you ask for? After that he will want the technology to allow humanity to rise as the dominant power in the galaxy, but that is neither dangerous nor undesirable. Regardless if you fail to stop the Reapers the Illusive Man's post-Reaper goals won't matter, now will they?

That the mass relays were not weapons doesn't prove anything. My point was that studying Reaper technology has saved our lives in the past. The technology inside the Collector base being weapons of war is incentive to study it. In the near-ish future we will be forced to combat with this technology on what will most likely be a massive scale. The last time we encountered this technology we had to throw several fleets at it just to overcome one ship. We cannot afford to do that in an actual war; we will quickly run out of fleets.

Firstly, I never said studying Reaper technology hasn't saved our lives in the past or that we mustn't do it ever. That is ignorance. Knowledge is power.

Secondly, and most importantly, it is in fact the short-term dangers of letting him keep the base that made me blow it up.

The Illusive Man's actions are fueled by a dual goal; he does in fact have two goals, which means everything he does he does to accomplish them both at the same time. This muddies things. This compromises his decisions. This is dangerous.

He doesn't just want to save humanity and the galaxy. He wants to save humanity and the galaxy in such a way that by the time it's over, we're in total power. This might be okay, if it didn't mean that he cared more about power than saving the galaxy, and that all his actions would reflect this in a bad way. He might hoard technology that the rest of the galaxy might need to defeat the Reapers as a whole. He might try to monopolize all Reaper tech for himself or refuse to work with other races and do the whole thing solo. All because he thinks of power first.

Even when you are handed the base that could save the galaxy, all he is thinking of is power.

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You cannot argue that keeping Reaper technology is not dangerous just because there have been some examples to the contrary in the past.

You cannot argue that keeping Reaper technology is dangerous just because there have been some examples of people being killed in the past.

Of course not. I merely state that when we give these examples we prove nothing other than that both instances have happened before.

But you do understand that caution based on past galaxy-ruining disasters is much more sensible than carelessness or assumptions of safety based on past instances in which nothing happened.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 07 juillet 2010 - 02:04 .

[smudboy]

Smajdak wrote...
I feel like I am bashing my head against a wall. Sigh. Let's try again: As far as we know, there is ABSOLUTELY no way we can beat Reapers in direct battle. Just no way. Only chance is to either develop some super weapon or to escape.

And once again you are thinking of using a ship vs ship military application.

Using Reaper tech WON'T work - simply because Reapers know their own tech perfectly. So there is no chance we can succeed just by using their own technology. We can not have stronger army then they do, that is just impossible. Even with Rachni, Geth, Quarians and whoever you name.

Were they expecting EDI, Thanix Cannons, etc?  Or how those are used in tactically?

Now here you're making the point that we can't win a military battle with them.  That's fine.  But that's not a reason to destroy the base, because we don't know we'll just find military-applicable data in the base.

We need to have something else to counter their attack. Something you WON'T discover if you study Reaper technology. Something of our own.

No, this is faulty thinking.  If we can repurpose their tech, which is better than ours, why wouldn't we use it?  What, would our technology, which is based on Reaper tech, suddenly be completely ineffective?

You're saying because they have knowledge of gunpowder, that bullets won't hurt them.  Or that our new Reaper-tech bullets or Reaper-tech gunpowder won't work against them.

Thanks, but that's stupid.

I mentioned quarians because they already started a research about stars aging faster than they should, which could lead to a star destroying weapon. Or maybe discover who made those stars age faster in the first place. Or maybe it will be something else, I do not know. How am I supposed to know? Game would be pretty boring if I could predict twists in the game.

Well it doesn't matter then.  This point has nothing to do with destroying the base at all.  You're speculating that some 3rd party will come in and make some weapon that must be better than Reaper tech, which by definition on your own accord is impossible!  So stop thinking this way.

I said that Reaper technology is as good as it gets, not that it is the best tech available. It is the end of the Reaper path. However there might be some other human path we will never discover if we go along the Reaper path.
And just so you know, I live in the Czech Republic. English is a foreign language to me. So I hope you'll understand if I use would instead of could.

Okay, let me retract that.  "As good as it gets" means what now?  It's an end unto itself and cannot be changed, upgraded, learned from to make new tech?  Absolute f*cking nonsense.  Bullcrap.  Rubbish.  All technology can be upgraded.  To think that every area of science doesn't add to itself constantly is absolutely stupid.

Conclusion: you are wrong.

If it was an end to itself, the Thanix cannon would not have been invented.  EDI would not have been created.  Etc etc etc.  Whereas picking up the Collector Beam heavy weapon is just literally stealing it, unless you take it apart and learn about it.

And by the way - You just keep saying that by simply using Reaper tech against them, we can defeat them, even though that is (in my opinion) even more improbable than discovering some tech to defeat them ourselves. Victory in direct battle against the Reapers is NOT possible.

Where would you be discovering some tech to defeat them ourselves?  Your use of English is poor.

Science->Engineering->Technology.  Technology is not discovered, unless someone has gone through the scientific and engineering process, and you've never seen it before, like from an alien species.  So are you implying there's some other alien species that is effective at stopping the Reapers?

I'm not saying we can defeat the Reaper with the base.  I'm saying the chances of doing so are higher.  I do not imply how, or what we'll find there will guarantee it.  You on the other hand assume that we'll find a weapon, and that if weapon, then uselessness, because the Reaper already have it, or some sh*t.

[smudboy]

Smajdak wrote...

smudboy wrote...
...(Hell, we can argue we can learn how to make a ME core like a Reapers from the base, and make those Thanix cannons you so think are inferior to Reaper weapons, but that's speculation.)...

It is not that difficult to make that big cores. The problem is with eezo. Where do you want to get that much eezo? Building one ship would be next to impossible. Building an entire fleet of those ships? Completely impossible.

Weak.
1) Mining minigame.
2) Save the Ascension.
3) Build the core.

[Il Divo]

Shandepared wrote...

No, I'm speaking from a batarian perspective.

Sarcasm aside, if this is the case, then it's easily seen why any alien or equal-rights proponent might rather push to destroy the facility. Human (or more accurately Cerberus) dominance could lead to the same end result for anyone else.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...

If you think that TIM is more dangerous than the Reapers, you are free to believe that.

[Il Divo]

Shandepared wrote...

Yes I understand too but it is no less foolish. A human dominated galaxy is better than a galaxy that has been cleansed by the Reapers. Besides, I almost never see these hippies arguing against the Council and its baltant racism. In fact they often go to great lengths to defend it.

Problem here is what  constitutes a human dominated galaxy? Is it one in which Cerberus is in charge? The Alliance? Just the Illusive Man? What happens to the aliens? Are they placed in slums, aka the city elves of Dragon Age? Are they made slaves? Or will it even be genocide of any who attempt to resist their rulers? You'd be surprised how some might prefer extinction to absolute slavery, in which case we are back at square one. Why would a Paragon purposely give the facility to an individual we both know will abuse his power? "Humanity might survive" is not a good enough answer for the Paragon.

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Yes I understand too but it is no less foolish. A human dominated galaxy is better than a galaxy that has been cleansed by the Reapers. Besides, I almost never see these hippies arguing against the Council and its baltant racism. In fact they often go to great lengths to defend it.

Problem here is what  constitutes a human dominated galaxy? Is it one in which Cerberus is in charge? The Alliance? Just the Illusive Man? What happens to the aliens? Are they placed in slums, aka the city elves of Dragon Age? Are they made slaves? Or will it even be genocide of any who attempt to resist their rulers? You'd be surprised how some might prefer extinction to absolute slavery, in which case we are back at square one. Why would a Paragon purposely give the facility to an individual we both know will abuse his power? "Humanity might survive" is not a good enough answer for the Paragon.

The ability to be a xenophobic douche is insignificant to the power of the galactic slurpee.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

No, but he might be able to keep it at bay, or to make a war too costly for the United States to want to get involved. You'll notice that the United States doesn't fight wars against countries which have equal military technology.

Anyway, I'm not arguing any further about this because I've already made my point there. (and I'm going to ignore your misinformed statement about international politics)

Keep the U.S. at bay? The U.S. can dominate the skies of any country on this planet with their stealth fighters (F-22 and to a much, much lesser extent the F-35), just like the Reapers can dominate space. The only thing holding them "at bay" is their own people (Americans view themselves as a positive force in this world and believe in a "good") and the threat of mutually assured destruction if they start **** with Russia.

Shandepared wrote...
All we have to do is develop the weapons and put them on the ships we already have. Of-course I suspect you underestimate how fast ships can be built.

You're kidding me right? Look at the last 5 major ship programs in the modern U.S. military. They either have been grossly over-budget and over-time (the LCS-class of US Navy...um...well...littoral combat ships), severely cut back (the US Navy Virginia and Seawolf class nuclear attack submarines), reduced to technology demonstrators (the next generation DDX) or outright cancelled (the next gen CGX cruiser).

You might argue that this is in peacetime right now. Well, as the Reapers don't officially exist, it's ALSO peacetime in the Alliance.

We also can't use ships we already have, because they were designed with much smaller mass effect cores (compared proportionally to the Normandy and to the Reapers).

Shandepared wrote...
When the incentive is there complex warships can be constructed rather quickly. Regardless, what alternative are you offering?

But the incentive ISN'T there. The Reapers don't exist, and Cerberus cannot build a fleet on its own - it's a shadow organization, not a military force. It was already prohibitively expesive rebuilding Shepherd and the SR-2 - but billions of credits is chump change for a military budget.

And no, I don't have an alternative. Geth technology?

Shandepared wrote...
If the base isn't the answer then what is? You seem to think our odds are terrible and you also think the base won't even help. So... are we all doomed?

Our answer is whatever the devs comes up with for ME3. I just hope to GOD that it isn't something as SIMPLE as "If you keep the base, you win! Thanix cannon their asses for PWN-sies"

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 07 juillet 2010 - 02:44 .

[Smajdak]

smudboy wrote...

And once again you are thinking of using a ship vs ship military application.

And what are you thinking of? Reapers are going to attack with ships. You want to defeat them, you need ships. Or some defenses on planets against those ships. You just need to destroy those ships. Or hack them, which I think is impossible, considering their complexity.

Were they expecting EDI, Thanix Cannons, etc? Or how those are used in tactically?



Now here you're making the point that we can't win a military battle with them. That's fine. But that's not a reason to destroy the base, because we don't know we'll just find military-applicable data in the base.

EDI is not more intelligent than Reapers, same goes for thanix cannons. They worked against Collectors who are not as advanced as Reapers. But what are they going to do against Reapers. EDI won't be able to hack Reapers, best thing she can do is defend the ship and help Joker with flying. Same goes for Thanix cannon - I doubt that thing (mounted on on anything smaller than Destiny Ascension) could even scratch Reaper's paint. They managed to built INDESTRUCTIBLE citadel. I think their own plating should be able to withstand some damage.

No, this is faulty thinking. If we can repurpose their tech, which is better than ours, why wouldn't we use it? What, would our technology, which is based on Reaper tech, suddenly be completely ineffective?



You're saying because they have knowledge of gunpowder, that bullets won't hurt them. Or that our new Reaper-tech bullets or Reaper-tech gunpowder won't work against them.



Thanks, but that's stupid.

As I've already said, it is very probable their defensive technology is also good. To use your analogy, they have been using their bullets for at least 38 millions years. It is quite probable that they have also some bulletproof vest. Or more like bulletproof bodyarmor. Of course, their bullets are capable of destroying that armor. However, our bullets are weaker. A lot. Thanix cannon's power is derived from the size of ship's mass effect core.Biggest ship of all, Destiny Ascension, is still a lot smaller than Sovereign. And they have fleet of at least 300 of those ships.

Well it doesn't matter then. This point has nothing to do with destroying the base at all. You're speculating that some 3rd party will come in and make some weapon that must be better than Reaper tech, which by definition on your own accord is impossible! So stop thinking this way.

It has... Look: they won't develop that weapon if the base is spared. Period. And it is possible to have better tech, just not based on Reaper tech. And even if it is not better - it is something Reapers do not have and what Reapers can not counterattack. At least I haven't heard anything about Reapers blowing stars up.

Okay, let me retract that. "As good as it gets" means what now? It's an end unto itself and cannot be changed, upgraded, learned from to make new tech? Absolute f*cking nonsense. Bullcrap. Rubbish. All technology can be upgraded. To think that every area of science doesn't add to itself constantly is absolutely stupid.



Conclusion: you are wrong.



If it was an end to itself, the Thanix cannon would not have been invented. EDI would not have been created. Etc etc etc. Whereas picking up the Collector Beam heavy weapon is just literally stealing it, unless you take it apart and learn about it.

Oh really? It looks like 38 million years old derelict reaper is the same as sovereign. No progress made. In that long time. How can you say that progress is infinite? It is only logical to assume that at some point no more improvements can be made. We are, of course, long way from there. Thanix is not better than Reaper guns. EDI is not smarter than Reapers.

Where would you be discovering some tech to defeat them ourselves? Your use of English is poor.



Science->Engineering->Technology. Technology is not discovered, unless someone has gone through the scientific and engineering process, and you've never seen it before, like from an alien species. So are you implying there's some other alien species that is effective at stopping the Reapers?



I'm not saying we can defeat the Reaper with the base. I'm saying the chances of doing so are higher. I do not imply how, or what we'll find there will guarantee it. You on the other hand assume that we'll find a weapon, and that if weapon, then uselessness, because the Reaper already have it, or some sh*t.

What do you expect to find on the military collector base? Something which could help you in a war? Everything collectors use inferior to what Reapers use and something that Reapers already know, thus useless. Only Reaper technology there is building the station itself (but more like the process of building, which is useless now) and creating a Reaper (which does not help you at all - it gives you everything you need to create a Reaper and maybe Reaper schematics, which, as I already said, are utterly useless). Oh, and means of communicating on great distance and possessing others, but considering that we already have QEC and we do not need to possess others, it is still fairly useles.

Weak.

1) Mining minigame.

2) Save the Ascension.

3) Build the core.

OK, this is completely ridiculous. First of all, nobody knows how much eezo does one unit represent. Considering the amount required to make your biotics better, it probably is not much. More efficent way would be to mine it on asteroids. Second of all. You need core like Nazara had. That is huge. It allowed ship of his size to land on a planet and then get off. The amount of eezo necessary for that must be huge. And one ship would not save you. Even ten ships. Hell, probably not even a hundred. And finding enough eezo for one ship would be a challenge.

[smudboy]

Smajdak wrote...
And what are you thinking of? Reapers are going to attack with ships. You want to defeat them, you need ships. Or some defenses on planets against those ships. You just need to destroy those ships. Or hack them, which I think is impossible, considering their complexity.

Quite literally anything, but you're reducing it to just a weapon.  Intel, tech, etc.

Everything you said about a 3rd party Quarian star going nova-whatever -- you could find that in the base.  We simply don't know.  You speculating that it can only be a weapon, which is inferior, is stupid.

EDI is not more intelligent than Reapers, same goes for thanix cannons. They worked against Collectors who are not as advanced as Reapers. But what are they going to do against Reapers. EDI won't be able to hack Reapers, best thing she can do is defend the ship and help Joker with flying. Same goes for Thanix cannon - I doubt that thing (mounted on on anything smaller than Destiny Ascension) could even scratch Reaper's paint. They managed to built INDESTRUCTIBLE citadel. I think their own plating should be able to withstand some damage.

EDI is something the Reapers are not expecting, which you yourself state is exactly what we need.  Ditto with Thanix, etc.

They also managed to build the INDESTRUCTIBLE Mass Relays, but they didn't build Sovereign out of it.  Clearly they're not as intelligent as you might think.  Sovereign was defeated with non-Reaper tech, which was inferior to the Thanix.  I still don't see how having their own tech against them is a bad thing.

As I've already said, it is very probable their defensive technology is also good. To use your analogy, they have been using their bullets for at least 38 millions years. It is quite probable that they have also some bulletproof vest. Or more like bulletproof bodyarmor. Of course, their bullets are capable of destroying that armor. However, our bullets are weaker. A lot. Thanix cannon's power is derived from the size of ship's mass effect core.Biggest ship of all, Destiny Ascension, is still a lot smaller than Sovereign. And they have fleet of at least 300 of those ships.

Even more the reason to keep the base.  Maybe we'll find their defensive tech too, as well as their offensive tech.

The point you're missing is, if we take their tech, we are on the same level as them.  The whole point brought up about having Thanix being inferior is a minor gripe.

What you should be arguing is that once we repurpose their tech, we then make it better, which is your original argument: but you want to do it without Reaper tech, because you think it can't possible get any better.  Which as we both know, is millions of years too late.

It has... Look: they won't develop that weapon if the base is spared. Period. And it is possible to have better tech, just not based on Reaper tech. And even if it is not better - it is something Reapers do not have and what Reapers can not counterattack. At least I haven't heard anything about Reapers blowing stars up.

No.  The base and the Quarians have nothing to do with each other.

It is not possible to have better tech, because Reapers have the best tech, by several millions years.  There is no time, to develop, such tech.

UNLESS you save the base, use their tech, and then advance it.  Reaper Technology is not an end.  Technology is based on engineering, which comes from science.  Which implies there are laws and rules to the universe we haven't discovered yet, or how to manipulate that the Reapers have. That's all.  Technology is the useful application of that knowledge.

The base and <insert random race> have nothing to do with each other. This part of your argument is a non-sequitur, it has nothing to do with anything.

So keeping the base has nothign to do with some third party enacting their master anti-Reaper plan.  If you cannot see that, you are blind.

I mean seriously.  How does blowing up a base prevent the Quarians from blowing up a star?  Or developing their own technology?  IT has NOTHING to do with it.  You argument is still based on someone elses's plans, that have nothing to do with the base.

Am I making myself clear?

Base + Quarians = NO RELATIONSHIP

You may as well be talking about apple pie.

Which I've said already.  Again.

Oh really? It looks like 38 million years old derelict reaper is the same as sovereign. No progress made. In that long time. How can you say that progress is infinite? It is only logical to assume that at some point no more improvements can be made. We are, of course, long way from there. Thanix is not better than Reaper guns. EDI is not smarter than Reapers.

Technology is constantly improving itself.  Engineering is constantly improving itself.  Science is constantly improving itself.

This is how knowledge works.

It is illogical to impose your view (which is FALSE) on how the entire world of scientific advancement works.

The sheer fact that a whole other species (alien), can look at another species technology, repurpose it, and further advance it, implies that something different will be the result.  Which as I believe, is the whole point of your argument, but you're unwilling to accept that Reaper tech does not advance, simply because the Reapers have decided not to.

See the thing with technology, is it provides a solution that is more efficient than previous technology.  The Reapers don't exactly have much needs (as far as I understand them, which is 0) to want to upgrade their "stuff" in millions of years.  Or maybe they do?  It doesn't matter, because humans, or organics, do, especially when said technology may be very effective in staying alive.

What do you expect to find on the military collector base? Something which could help you in a war? Everything collectors use inferior to what Reapers use and something that Reapers already know, thus useless. Only Reaper technology there is building the station itself (but more like the process of building, which is useless now) and creating a Reaper (which does not help you at all - it gives you everything you need to create a Reaper and maybe Reaper schematics, which, as I already said, are utterly useless). Oh, and means of communicating on great distance and possessing others, but considering that we already have QEC and we do not need to possess others, it is still fairly useles.

The Collector Base is not a military base per se, it is a nursery of sorts.

The fact that base BUILDS a Reaper is pretty damned important, considering that is our main enemy, our target, and the thing we must destroy.  It doesn't need a direct military application: that's out target, and we've discovered how this thing MAKES our TARGET.  This is data we want.

Reaper schematics are not utterly useless.  I just told you: our target is the Reapers.  We need to know how to stop them.  Well, here's a...

**** it, you're an idiot.  All the thought and stupid logic is so bizarre, I can't take it anymore.  I mean if you can't figure this out, we're done here.  I've tried so hard to explain that your argument is obscenely false, but you are going over and over about how the base is not going to work because you believe you'll find some DIRECT MILITARY APPLICATION to a base that builds Reapers.  I mean, ****.  WTF!S@#!!#@!#

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

There's no use reasoning with Smudboy. I don't think the fact that Reapers can land on planets and take off from them means anything to him. He'll just come up with your standard "well we can do it too" response.

Miracle #1. Even ASSUMING that "we" achieve technological parity and can replicate the Reapers massive mass effect cores and incorporate them into dreadnoughts (either new ships or retrofitting them into older ships), the "we" only extends to Cerberus and TIM. Neither of which is trusted by the galaxy.

For Cerberus, it was prohibitively expensive to build the SR-2 - a frigate (albeit a very advanced one). They won't be able to build a fleet of SR-2s - what makes people think they can build a fleet of dreadnoughts with Reaper tech?

The Alliance would shoot Cerberus on sight. Like hell they are going to let them touch their ships. There's no trust there.

Miracle #2. Let's say the Alliance has no problems with trusting Cerberus. Fine, the Alliance gets some new toys. These toys will still ONLY be for the Alliance, not the rest of the galaxy. Does anyone think that the Alliance alone with upgraded ships can take on the Reapers?

Unless TIM shares the Collector Base tech...

Miracle #3. There is no miracle 3. Like hell TIM would share the Collector Base tech.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 07 juillet 2010 - 03:43 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

smudboy wrote...

They also managed to build the INDESTRUCTIBLE Mass Relays, but they didn't build Sovereign out of it.  Clearly they're not as intelligent as you might think.  Sovereign was defeated with non-Reaper tech, which was inferior to the Thanix.  I still don't see how having their own tech against them is a bad thing.

It took the entire 5th Fleet ambushing a stationary Sovereign and Shepherd fighting Sovereign's avatar on the ground to bring down a single Reaper.

Are you being for real right now?

The point you're missing is, if we take their tech, we are on the same level as them.  The whole point brought up about having Thanix being inferior is a minor gripe.

Who called it? The "We can do it too!" argument. Sprinkle in some insults and you have a typical Smudboy post.

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

smudboy wrote...

They also managed to build the INDESTRUCTIBLE Mass Relays, but they didn't build Sovereign out of it.  Clearly they're not as intelligent as you might think.  Sovereign was defeated with non-Reaper tech, which was inferior to the Thanix.  I still don't see how having their own tech against them is a bad thing.

It took the entire 5th Fleet ambushing a stationary Sovereign and Shepherd fighting Sovereign's avatar on the ground to bring down a single Reaper.

Are you being for real right now?

The point you're missing is, if we take their tech, we are on the same level as them.  The whole point brought up about having Thanix being inferior is a minor gripe.

Who called it? The "We can do it too!" argument. Sprinkle in some insults and you have a typical Smudboy post.

Right.  So let's not learn anything about our enemy, instead.

Couldn't possibly learn ANYTHING useful from the base.  NOTHING AT ALL.

[smudboy]

[quote]V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

There's no use reasoning with Smudboy. I don't think the fact that Reapers can land on planets and take off from them means anything to him. He'll just come up with your standard "well we can do it too" response.
[/quote]
Sure there's reasoning.  If you understand basic words.  I think you do.  This is good.  I'm done with Mr. Technology.

[quote]
Miracle #1. Even ASSUMING that "we" achieve technological parity and can replicate the Reapers massive mass effect cores and incorporate them into dreadnoughts (either new ships or retrofitting them into older ships), the "we" only extends to Cerberus and TIM. Neither of which is trusted by the galaxy.
[/quote]
So?  This isn't about trust.  This is about survival.

[quote]
For Cerberus, it was prohibitively expensive to build the SR-2 - a frigate (albeit a very advanced one). They won't be able to build a fleet of SR-2s - what makes people think they can build a fleet of dreadnoughts with Reaper tech?
[/quote]
Who says that's the path to victory?  Again you're making the same mistake that Base = military solution (weapon).

[quote]
The Alliance would shoot Cerberus on sight. Like hell they are going to let them touch their ships. There's no trust there.
[/quote]
Unless you have one of those spiffy MP3 files that makes the universe believe you, like Tali.

"What, you have an entire base in the galactic core?  Oh come on now Shepard."

*kidnap them, go to base*

"Oh."
[quote]
Miracle #2. Let's say the Alliance has no problems with trusting Cerberus. Fine, the Alliance gets some new toys. These toys will still ONLY be for the Alliance, not the rest of the galaxy. Does anyone think that the Alliance alone with upgraded ships can take on the Reapers?
[/quote]
Probably not.  I fail to see how this is worse off than blowing up the base if again, military solution is all we find.

[quote]
Unless TIM shares the Collector Base tech...
[/quote]
You never know.

[quote]
Miracle #3. There is no miracle 3. Like hell TIM would share the Collector Base tech. [/quote]
[/quote]
You never know.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

It is most certainly not peacetime. The Alliance is currently at war with the geth and it is building up its forces to cover the losses from the Battle of the Citadel, meet the requirements of its obligations to the Citadel defense fleet, or if you let the Council die it is involved in an implied cold war with the Turian Hierarchy.

If you talk with Anderson in the Presidium, the war with the geth is no longer a war. Also, right now it's not exactly peacetime either for Western militaries - there are conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, and saber rattling with Russia and China (for the U.S.).

Either way, my point is that ships take a while to research and produce. The US Navy Arleigh Burke destroyers started R&D in 1983 and the first vessel of the class was commissioned in the early 1990s (not too sure on the precise date). It was almost 10 years, and in 1983 there was a Cold War between the Soviets and NATO.

The Arleigh Burke-class didn't even incorporate new technology. There were some "new" stealth features, whose R&D was already shared with other projects incorporating the technology (like the F-117 stealth bomber) and the Aegis anti-air system was already in use with the Ticonderoga-class cruisers, which have been in service at the time.

In the future, I fully expect ships to take decades to be built, and have longer service lives than current naval ships, as complexity and expenses increase for every new generation of cruisers/destroyers/etc.

So why not keep the base?

Honestly? I don't like the Illusive Man, and my paragade/renegade Shepherd is not TIM's b!7ch. If there was an option to keep the base for yourself (I know, sounds retarded but I'd do it for $h!ts and giggles) or give it to the Alliance, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There is military value in the base (direct or indirect) which WOULD secure Cerberus supremacy against the Alliance, the Turians, and the other Council races - organizations that have technological parity with Cerberus.

That being said, it would be MUCH less useful against the Reapers, cause they vastly out-match Cerberus technologically and militarily.

I'm not in direct opposition to keeping the base, I just don't like it when it's passed off as the end-all-be-all of the impending war. It's not.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 07 juillet 2010 - 04:26 .

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
Honestly? I don't like the Illusive Man, and my paragade/renegade Shepherd is not TIM's b!7ch. If there was an option to keep the base for yourself (I know, sounds retarded but I'd do it for $h!ts and giggles) or give it to the Alliance, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There is military value in the base (direct or indirect) which WOULD secure Cerberus supremacy against the Alliance, the Turians, and the other Council races - organizations that have technological parity with Cerberus.

That being said, it would be MUCH less useful against the Reapers, cause they vastly out-match Cerberus technologically and militarily.

I'm not in direct opposition to keeping the base, I just don't like it when it's passed off as the end-all-be-all of the impending war. It's not.

Thank you for finally being honest.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

That's great. Now can you admit that the galaxy is statistically unlikely (I won't say impossible) to achieve technological parity with the Reapers within the time of Shepherd's military career and modernize the entire galactic navy?

EDIT: Especially when officially the Reapers don't exist and TIM won't share the Collector data with aliens anyway.

Therefore, any products generated from the base (either military or otherwise, direct or indirect) would still be inferior to the Reapers? (in quantity and quality)

Thus necessitating the need to develop alternate means to counter the Reapers aside from simply researching the base? Yes, Smudboy, you argue that its not so much the direct military applications, but rather the indirectly applicable things such as how to destroy a Reaper once you know how they are built...but come on, this isn't Star Wars, the the Reapers aren't the Sith Empire - there are no "trenches" in these "deathstars" to shove proton torpedoes into.

The tech from the Collector Base will be 100% effective against the Turians, the Asari, the Krogan, the Alliance. But those are TIM's enemies, NOT Shepherd's. Shepherd is fighting the Reapers, and trying to beat the Reapers with their own tech (alone!) is suicide. 

To elaborate on my position, I didn't feel the trade-off is worth it - marginal/insignificant increase in military capability against the Reapers versus 100% TIM domination. I'll look for a Plan C, such as the Geth. Or maybe augment Geth technology with EDI and the Thanix-cannon technology. In fact, if I could, I'd bring Legion with me and head straight for the Perseus Veil after the Collector Base.  

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 07 juillet 2010 - 05:12 .

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

The ability to be a xenophobic douche is insignificant to the power of the galactic slurpee.

I'l give you that on account of the Star Wars reference.

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

That's great. Now can you admit that the galaxy is statistically unlikely (I won't say impossible) to achieve technological parity with the Reapers within the time of Shepherd's military career?

Therefore, any products generated from the base (either military or otherwise, direct or indirect) would still be inferior to the Reapers?

Thus necessitating the need to develop alternate means to counter the Reapers aside from simply researching the base? Yes, Smudboy, you argue that its not so much the direct military applications, but rather the indirectly applicable things such as how to destroy a Reaper once you know how they are built...but come on, this isn't Star Wars, the the Reapers aren't the Sith Empire - there are no "trenches" in these "deathstars" to shove proton torpedoes into.

The tech from the Collector Base will be 100% effective against the Turians, the Asari, the Krogan, the Alliance. But those are TIM's enemies, NOT Shepherd's. Shepherd is fighting the Reapers, and trying to beat the Reapers with their own tech (alone!) is suicide. 

To elaborate on my position, I didn't feel the trade-off is worth it - marginal/insignificant increase in military capability against the Reapers versus 100% TIM domination. I'll look for a Plan C, such as the Geth. Or maybe augment Geth technology with EDI and the Thanix-cannon technology. In fact, if I could, I'd bring Legion with me and head straight for the Perseus Veil after the Collector Base.  

No, your position is "suck it TIM".  I totally understand.

Just say you don't like TIM: it's that simple.  Don't try to rationalize it by coming up with subsidiary excuses/reasonings.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Me not liking TIM has nothing to do with the galaxy being unable to field a fleet of modernized naval combat vessels to defend against the Reaper threat. Or, since you argue for the whole, study the Reapers to kill them thing, being able to find a collective strategy to kill Reapers and train for it/develop tools/tactics for it.

It's disappointing that you cannot see that. But hardly surprising.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 07 juillet 2010 - 05:15 .