3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Mecha Tengu]

being nice = them not listening



you must make such a ridicolous claim (in their eyes), to force them to search it up themselves. Then they will understand.

[smudboy]

Sainthood82 wrote...

Why would you want to keep it?

The only real thing you could learn from it the Reapers would have already....

1) Known what could be learned from it
2) Prepared to counter any type of weapons created from the tech samples
3) Considered every possible outcome from leaving the base able to be captured
4) Left just enough tech in the base so that any race trying to learn from it does so according to the Reapers desires
5) created better tech that is millions of years ahead of everyone else

plus everyone likes you more when you blow it up =D


The only logical outcome to ME3 would be a great device left behind from a civilization or several races millions of years before the Protheans that all left little pieces and clues in the hopes that one race *Cough humanity* would peice together the puzzle and use to break the Reaper cycle in one swift attack.

1. How do you know?
2. Examples?
3. Is there evidence to support that?
4. Were the Reapers expecting two Reapers to be killed and have their tech removed/repurposed, including their Reaper making base?  If so, then it is a possibility.  The Reapers want organics to use the Mass Relays.  But I'm quite sure they don't want themselves to be found out, and their baby maker, that's accessible to Reaper-only ships.  That's a big stretch.
5. How could the tech that builds Reapers not be as good as Reapers themselves?  If anything, it'd be the most advanced Reaper-making technology they have (if the base is only 50,000 years old, and that's when they do their harvesting.)

Only logical outcome?  By power of a writer's imagination, the only logical outcome is what you just thought up?  Surely a different man could have another totally different logical outcome.

[tvih]

smudboy wrote...
I'm not sure how the SR2, being capable of destroying Collector vessels, now that (supposedly) all Collectors are gone, has anything to do with keeping a base that builds Reapers.

It means that humans already have the capability to build powerful ships, they don't need to build "Reapers" of their own nor do their need their tech to build good ships, especially not with the risks involved.

Collector ships supposedly are more powerful than most of the ships the Council races have, for example - probably anything but Dreadnoughts. If the upgraded SR-2 can take out a Collector cruiser - which is supposedly very advanced tech - with two shots, chances are it can hurt an actual Reaper, too. Apply the same tech to either more or larger vessels, preferably both, and building Reapers becomes pointless - and who the hell would want to build one anyway.

On the other hand if you want to try find weaknesses with the data available, that wouldn't probably work either since chances are each Reaper is different, being "modeled" after different species.

So, in short: it's just not worth the risks, all things considered.

[Sainthood82]

smudboy wrote...

Sainthood82 wrote...

Why would you want to keep it?

The only real thing you could learn from it the Reapers would have already....

1) Known what could be learned from it
2) Prepared to counter any type of weapons created from the tech samples
3) Considered every possible outcome from leaving the base able to be captured
4) Left just enough tech in the base so that any race trying to learn from it does so according to the Reapers desires
5) created better tech that is millions of years ahead of everyone else

plus everyone likes you more when you blow it up =D


The only logical outcome to ME3 would be a great device left behind from a civilization or several races millions of years before the Protheans that all left little pieces and clues in the hopes that one race *Cough humanity* would peice together the puzzle and use to break the Reaper cycle in one swift attack.

1. How do you know?
2. Examples?
3. Is there evidence to support that?
4. Were the Reapers expecting two Reapers to be killed and have their tech removed/repurposed, including their Reaper making base?  If so, then it is a possibility.  The Reapers want organics to use the Mass Relays.  But I'm quite sure they don't want themselves to be found out, and their baby maker, that's accessible to Reaper-only ships.  That's a big stretch.
5. How could the tech that builds Reapers not be as good as Reapers themselves?  If anything, it'd be the most advanced Reaper-making technology they have (if the base is only 50,000 years old, and that's when they do their harvesting.)

Only logical outcome?  By power of a writer's imagination, the only logical outcome is what you just thought up?  Surely a different man could have another totally different logical outcome.

I love a good argument.

Granted I am just a fan so everything I say will hold effectively no merit and is likely far off from what will happen.

Reapers are from what Ive seen a mass union of organic tissue and advanced synthetic tech to create some bizarre living machine, with a very powerful mental ability.  Union of millions of species consciousness' to create one all powerful hive mind perhaps? Idk

But when have you heard of advanced super computer beings that dont spend some part of thier time viewing EVERY possible outcome.  How fast can a computer operate?  How fast can a human think of possibilties?  With around 50,000+ years in Dark space you would think a race of machines would have spent a few minutes calculating trillions of possibilities and scenarios per second *at minimum*.

If the Reapers truly lack the insight to prepare for every 'what if' and are so arrogant that they dont think that their servants cant handle themselves always after a Reaper itself was destroyed in rebellion after a second one was killed 37somemillion years later, then maybe they arent so intelligent.

and on the *collector* station.  What makes you so sure that Collectors were ONLY Protheans and not simply the latest race that is mutated and swaped out possibly making the station millions of years old.  Bringing up Keepers and the tech to create Reapers though and you have a case for a good argument.

Of course logical was a poor choice of words on my part.  But an armada of super powered machines....its a little hard to believe that they can beaten through force of arms and not via an alien trump card created from the *first* Reaper race by a sect that feared the outcome of what Reapers do or by several extinct races with a similar as seen above.

Hey Im just a fan, so what do I know?  Very little right =/

[smudboy]

tvih wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I'm not sure how the SR2, being capable of destroying Collector vessels, now that (supposedly) all Collectors are gone, has anything to do with keeping a base that builds Reapers.

It means that humans already have the capability to build powerful ships, they don't need to build "Reapers" of their own nor do their need their tech to build good ships, especially not with the risks involved.

Collector ships supposedly are more powerful than most of the ships the Council races have, for example - probably anything but Dreadnoughts. If the upgraded SR-2 can take out a Collector cruiser - which is supposedly very advanced tech - with two shots, chances are it can hurt an actual Reaper, too. Apply the same tech to either more or larger vessels, preferably both, and building Reapers becomes pointless - and who the hell would want to build one anyway.

On the other hand if you want to try find weaknesses with the data available, that wouldn't probably work either since chances are each Reaper is different, being "modeled" after different species.

So, in short: it's just not worth the risks, all things considered.

Compare the SR1, and a few dozen other human and Turian ships, pre-Sovereign.  It took a few fleets, and we don't know if they were even effective, or the whole Sovereign-Saren link being broken had anything to do with it.

I don't think the intention would ever be to build Reapers.  That's phyiscally impossible within our time frame.  I think the general idea is to learn how Reapers are constructed, and learn how to exploit weaknesses in that construction.  Everything else that can be learned from the base is speculation, but the basic philosophy behind keeping it is "it's better than nothing."

The argument that you won't find a physical weakness because all life is different, and thus all Reapers is different, is not applicable, since we have defeated a Reaper before: we're just not sure how.  The species Sovereign was composed of is irrelevant, as the weapons or methods used are just basically hitting it with everything.  Now if we knew what to hit it with, where, and how, that would be very helpful, I would imagine.

[smudboy]

Sainthood82 wrote...
I love a good argument.

Granted I am just a fan so everything I say will hold effectively no merit and is likely far off from what will happen.

Reapers are from what Ive seen a mass union of organic tissue and advanced synthetic tech to create some bizarre living machine, with a very powerful mental ability.  Union of millions of species consciousness' to create one all powerful hive mind perhaps? Idk

But when have you heard of advanced super computer beings that dont spend some part of thier time viewing EVERY possible outcome.  How fast can a computer operate?  How fast can a human think of possibilties?  With around 50,000+ years in Dark space you would think a race of machines would have spent a few minutes calculating trillions of possibilities and scenarios per second *at minimum*.

If the Reapers truly lack the insight to prepare for every 'what if' and are so arrogant that they dont think that their servants cant handle themselves always after a Reaper itself was destroyed in rebellion after a second one was killed 37somemillion years later, then maybe they arent so intelligent.

and on the *collector* station.  What makes you so sure that Collectors were ONLY Protheans and not simply the latest race that is mutated and swaped out possibly making the station millions of years old.  Bringing up Keepers and the tech to create Reapers though and you have a case for a good argument.

Of course logical was a poor choice of words on my part.  But an armada of super powered machines....its a little hard to believe that they can beaten through force of arms and not via an alien trump card created from the *first* Reaper race by a sect that feared the outcome of what Reapers do or by several extinct races with a similar as seen above.

Hey Im just a fan, so what do I know?  Very little right =/

I too, find it impossible, that anything we do or any plan we ever concoct hasn't already been determined by the Reapers.  In fact it feels futile.  But of course, there has to be some resolution, or else there wouldn't be a story to tell.  Sovereign obviously did something wrong, and that 37 million year old Reaper, as did Harbinger.  I mean I barely understand the logic of most of what's going on, but obviously the Reapers haven't figured what Shepard and company can do.

The point is we don't know what knowlege is in the base, nor how to effectively stop our Big Bad. And we need to learn, or else.

If the Collector Base is millions of years old, score.

If they were predicting this all, I still see no fault in wanting to increase our knowledge of the universe, which may have direct military applications.  Which was also the whole point of the Eden Prime mission: technological advance is the best idea.

[pprrff]

smudboy wrote...

tvih wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I'm not sure how the SR2, being capable of destroying Collector vessels, now that (supposedly) all Collectors are gone, has anything to do with keeping a base that builds Reapers.

It means that humans already have the capability to build powerful ships, they don't need to build "Reapers" of their own nor do their need their tech to build good ships, especially not with the risks involved.

Collector ships supposedly are more powerful than most of the ships the Council races have, for example - probably anything but Dreadnoughts. If the upgraded SR-2 can take out a Collector cruiser - which is supposedly very advanced tech - with two shots, chances are it can hurt an actual Reaper, too. Apply the same tech to either more or larger vessels, preferably both, and building Reapers becomes pointless - and who the hell would want to build one anyway.

On the other hand if you want to try find weaknesses with the data available, that wouldn't probably work either since chances are each Reaper is different, being "modeled" after different species.

So, in short: it's just not worth the risks, all things considered.

Compare the SR1, and a few dozen other human and Turian ships, pre-Sovereign.  It took a few fleets, and we don't know if they were even effective, or the whole Sovereign-Saren link being broken had anything to do with it.

I don't think the intention would ever be to build Reapers.  That's phyiscally impossible within our time frame.  I think the general idea is to learn how Reapers are constructed, and learn how to exploit weaknesses in that construction.  Everything else that can be learned from the base is speculation, but the basic philosophy behind keeping it is "it's better than nothing."

The argument that you won't find a physical weakness because all life is different, and thus all Reapers is different, is not applicable, since we have defeated a Reaper before: we're just not sure how.  The species Sovereign was composed of is irrelevant, as the weapons or methods used are just basically hitting it with everything.  Now if we knew what to hit it with, where, and how, that would be very helpful, I would imagine.

 Aside from indoctrination, the Reapers, when they are in space, are just very large ships. There is no reason so assume that the Reaper ships will have some vulnerability that human or turian ship does not, so I fail to see what sort of tactical information you can exploit. Its not like their shield technology operate differently that give them an advantage, their advantage is just raw power and number (bigger EZO core and loads of them). You might argue that you might find something about their network to help you pull off an "Independence Day", but I don't even want to go into that territory...

[Asheer_Khan]

I still can't forget Vigil's words that one thing what reapers really fear is UNITED against them galaxy?



Question is why?



Maybe this "devil" is less scarry than many people here want to believe?



Key is that Reapers DON'T evolve (unless in dark space is some sort of Dark Citadel where Collectors made research of new techs used to upgrade CENTURIES old reaper ships).

That's why they want civilization which will risen from ashes of harvest uses Citadel, Mass Relays and other accessable tech leaved by them to prevent any possibility that some survived civilization will develop in way which could become deadly threat for them (for example ship drives making Mass Relays useless and by the way maybe Alliance should find Dr. Cochrane and start to build warp drive ships instead of EZO based ships? )



Remember that Citadel battle was a complete surprise for Citadel Defence Forces but if they would have in off time to brought all dreadnoughts and Alliance Carriers and form proper defence line whit Ascension as heavy support i seriously doubt that Sovieregin would be able to reach Citadel tower despite Saren's "back door" entry.



Attacking Citadel Sovieregin made one huge mistake... he reveal Reapers existence actually blowing up entire "element of surprise" factor which was essential for reapers in all previous cycles.



Lost Citadel battle, and later on loss of Collector "shipyard" was something what i really that Harbinger anticipated and i think those failures will made them desperate because they known that thier accus soon will start running low to empty... especially considering fact that they are forced to travel entire way to our galaxy.



But Harbinger is too puny to admit potential risk of failure of entire operation... OR he do have plan C after all and already running...

[smudboy]

pprrff wrote...
 Aside from indoctrination, the Reapers, when they are in space, are just very large ships. There is no reason so assume that the Reaper ships will have some vulnerability that human or turian ship does not, so I fail to see what sort of tactical information you can exploit. Its not like their shield technology operate differently that give them an advantage, their advantage is just raw power and number (bigger EZO core and loads of them). You might argue that you might find something about their network to help you pull off an "Independence Day", but I don't even want to go into that territory...

Why even think this way?  They look like really large ships, but it took a few fleets to even put a tend in one as it assaulted the Citadel, and we don't know if that even did anything.  So you're betting that any data from the base will be ineffective, because they're just big, powerful ships?  So you don't want a tactical advantage just because?

So you're stating that a completely alien ship can have a vulnerability that a known ship can have.  Let's assume that's true.  But you don't know that vulnerability.  Because it's alien to you.  So here you go, off thinking it's a Turian ship, exploiting it's weakness...but alas, that fails.  Because it's not a Turian ship.  Then you try a human ship weakness.  Whoops, failed again. Do you see the problem of this thinking?  The only ship that's comparable, in size alone, is the Ascension, and that's not at the same level of technology as the Reapers.

Why wouldn't you even consider an Independence Day virus scenario?  The thing is we don't even know what we're going to find.  Your reasons are ignorant to the point of negligence.  "Oh don't worry, we'll exploit some unknown weakness because it's a spaceship, and just has larger numbers."  What?  This is exactly why you need info!  Let's look at Star Wars.  You have a vessel that can annihilate planets, has thousands of defense turrets, and thousands of fighters it can launch.  This seems impossible to stop, considering the force of the Rebel army.  Yet having the specs on the planet killer thing allowed one simple little fighter to exploit a weakness.  That's a classic sci-fi example.  Now I'm not saying every Reaper has an exhaust port flaw, and even if it doesn't, who cares?  Get an edge.  Win.  Victory.  That's the point.  Arguing you can't because you think you'll find nothing of practical value, because "their ships are big" is...rationalization based on ignorance.

[pprrff]

smudboy wrote...

pprrff wrote...
 Aside from indoctrination, the Reapers, when they are in space, are just very large ships. There is no reason so assume that the Reaper ships will have some vulnerability that human or turian ship does not, so I fail to see what sort of tactical information you can exploit. Its not like their shield technology operate differently that give them an advantage, their advantage is just raw power and number (bigger EZO core and loads of them). You might argue that you might find something about their network to help you pull off an "Independence Day", but I don't even want to go into that territory...

Why even think this way?  They look like really large ships, but it took a few fleets to even put a tend in one as it assaulted the Citadel, and we don't know if that even did anything.  So you're betting that any data from the base will be ineffective, because they're just big, powerful ships?  So you don't want a tactical advantage just because?

So you're stating that a completely alien ship can have a vulnerability that a known ship can have.  Let's assume that's true.  But you don't know that vulnerability.  Because it's alien to you.  So here you go, off thinking it's a Turian ship, exploiting it's weakness...but alas, that fails.  Because it's not a Turian ship.  Then you try a human ship weakness.  Whoops, failed again. Do you see the problem of this thinking?  The only ship that's comparable, in size alone, is the Ascension, and that's not at the same level of technology as the Reapers.

Why wouldn't you even consider an Independence Day virus scenario?  The thing is we don't even know what we're going to find.  Your reasons are ignorant to the point of negligence.  "Oh don't worry, we'll exploit some unknown weakness because it's a spaceship, and just has larger numbers."  What?  This is exactly why you need info!  Let's look at Star Wars.  You have a vessel that can annihilate planets, has thousands of defense turrets, and thousands of fighters it can launch.  This seems impossible to stop, considering the force of the Rebel army.  Yet having the specs on the planet killer thing allowed one simple little fighter to exploit a weakness.  That's a classic sci-fi example.  Now I'm not saying every Reaper has an exhaust port flaw, and even if it doesn't, who cares?  Get an edge.  Win.  Victory.  That's the point.  Arguing you can't because you think you'll find nothing of practical value, because "their ships are big" is...rationalization based on ignorance.

But a Reaper is not a death star, it is giant ship, which is protected by a kinetic shield, which is powered by a Mass Effect Coret, which is consisted of Element Zero.

What makes a Reaper ship powerful and resistant to normal weapon? Its shield, and its massive ME Core that powers it. It almost boil's down to the fact that Reaper is powerful because it has a bigger battery. The answer to that is to bring more guns to the fight. If  the human can't some bypass a turian shield w/o completely obliterating it with raw power and vice versa, they shouldn't expect to be able to by pass the Reaper other than the conventional way. Of course this is all based on the codex provide in game.

The reason I wouldn't elaborate the 'hacking a hive with a virus' idea is because it is the most likely route that the game will take, right after blowing up a star/blackhole/nebula/plot-phenomenon and taking the Reaper with it. 

Modifié par pprrff, 12 juillet 2010 - 11:42 .

[Asheer_Khan]

ID 4 scenario for ME 3 is more possible as anyone think thanks to one fatal aspect closed in phrase "STAND ALONE".



Like i posted earlier devs will need to pull more or less ID 4 type stunt to made equal for everyone (ME 1 veterans, ME 2 starters and ME 3 newbies) chance to stopping reapers .

[pprrff]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

ID 4 scenario for ME 3 is more possible as anyone think thanks to one fatal aspect closed in phrase "STAND ALONE".

Like i posted earlier devs will need to pull more or less ID 4 type stunt to made equal for everyone (ME 1 veterans, ME 2 starters and ME 3 newbies) chance to stopping reapers .

That's one way to do it, but remember the whole dark matter thing with the geth on Haestrom? It's just as likely that Shep cause a huge explosion using it somehow to destroy the baddies, or better, cause a huge implosion and suck the reapers all into a black whole.

Modifié par pprrff, 13 juillet 2010 - 12:06 .

[smudboy]

pprrff wrote...
But a Reaper is not a death star, it is giant ship, which is protected by a kinetic shield, which is powered by a Mass Effect Coret, which is consisted of Element Zero.

Yeah?  You're repeating yourself.

And the death star is just a giant ship, with a shield, powered by x, and blahblahblah.  Yet instead of just acquiring massive firepower and lobbing things at it, the Rebels conducted a high risk, precision attack, and won.

Tell me, what is more efficient: 1) building up a massive army to attack a dreadnaught that you have no knowledge, tactical or strategisc advantage over, 2) or potentially discovering a weakness in said dreadnaught and planning for that?  (Keep in mind you can do both.)

What makes a Reaper ship powerful and resistant to normal weapon? Its shield, and its massive ME Core that powers it. It almost boil's down to the fact that Reaper is powerful because it has a bigger battery. The answer to that is to bring more guns to the fight. If  the human can't some bypass a turian shield w/o completely obliterating it with raw power and vice versa, they shouldn't expect to be able to by pass the Reaper other than the conventional way. Of course this is all based on the codex provide in game.

And what if you can't?  What if you simply don't have numbers on your side?  The first time they came up against a Reaper, several fleets were destroyed, while it just stood there.  I'm well aware of what a war of attrition is, but you're minimalist understanding of war, and even worse knowledge of a Reaper shows no sign of tactics or strategic skill.  You're just saying it's a big target, so obviously we need big guns.

So save the base, learn about the thing, and guess what?  You might just get your bigger armaments to take it apart.  And maybe learn a weakness it has, or two.  Or the secrets to the universe.

The reason I wouldn't elaborate the 'hacking a hive with a virus' idea is because it is the most likely route that the game will take, right after blowing up a star/blackhole/nebula/plot-phenomenon and taking the Reaper with it. 

So it's the most likely scenario and potential military knowledge you'd get from the base, but you'll still blow up the base?  Ah huh.

[lovgreno]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I still can't forget Vigil's words that one thing what reapers really fear is UNITED against them galaxy?

Keeping the base will make it harder than it already is to unite the galaxy. A Shepard that let Cerberus use the base for their human centric agenda will not have much credibility when he wants a coalition against the reapers. Neither will any other human. But perhaps the base does contain a deus ex machina against the reapers so Cerberus can beat them all by themselves. Even if I doubt that Harbringer left anything usefull behind. But if Harbringer takes back his base a chance of weakening the reapers by removing their base has been lost and Shepards position to fight the reapers are even worse than after being resurected.
Even a Shepard that doesn't like aliens and are afraid to seem weak by asking for help must act like a adult and show the aliens that he and humanity are willing to sacrifice and share power for the common good. This threat is too big for humanity alone and certanly for Cerberus. TIMmys illusions of grandeur are a liability. As much as it would be nice to be a superman that always knows best Shepard must realise he isn't alone in the galaxy. A man might dislike politics and desire to not have to listen to anyone who disagrees with him but that doesn't change the fact that everything is political.

[Nightwriter]

I agree, lovgreno.

I feel like an ending where the whole galaxy unites to fight the Reapers is more epic than an ending where only Cerberus defeats the Reapers, anyway.

[angj57]

The Collector Base surely has advanced systems which could be used to improve human and/or galactic technology.

HOWEVER

There is no guarantee that there isn't also reaper indoctrination tech there. Considering that the Cerberus team got indoctrinated just investigating a Reaper ship, I was sketical as to whether Cerberus would be able to handle the base. The worst case scenario would be for Cerberus higher ups to become Saren-style indoctrinated. Then the Reapers would have access to their covert network.

[Giggles_Manically]

We all seem to be forgetting that EDi datamined the whole place, had stats, plans, and apparent evidence on the reapers. IN short we have their data, and blueprints studying the base is kinda moot at that point.



Also given the fact that Cerberus is probably funded by "Funniest Secret Group Crackups" grandprize with all their experiments going Team Rocket style.

[pprrff]

So it's the most likely scenario and potential military knowledge you'd get from the base, but you'll still blow up the base?  Ah huh.

Until the next game comes along and I am proven wrong, in which case I will be glad to be proven wrong, I maintain that Reaper ship is just big ship on ezo steroid. Also, my reason for blowing the base is not based on its how useful it is. Even if it turned out to be a hunk of junk, you still have some scrap metal. I blew it up because the Reapers are threats same way Asteroids are threats: they can end your existence, but probably not tomorrow. Cerbrus is way more immediate, I fully expect that they will be the replace collectors as the main baddies.

[Giggles_Manically]

SIMPLE LOGIC: PARAGON POINTS ARE EARNED FOR DESTROYING THE BASE SO ALL WILL END WELL.



More seriuously a paragon imported galaxy is running better than a renegaded galaxy. So if Para. from 1 to 2 is good, there is a good chance the Para. from 2 to 3 is also going to work out.

[santaclausemoreau]

I have a really bad feeling that the tech they are going to find in the base is something that lets TIM harness the ability of indoctrination to use against the galaxy that won't willingly ally themselves with him.... but I don't want to base my decision on a gut feeling, so I always save the base except on one or two experimental playthroughs

[Giggles_Manically]

Shandepared wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

We all seem to be forgetting that EDi datamined the whole place, had stats, plans, and apparent evidence on the reapers. IN short we have their data, and blueprints studying the base is kinda moot at that point.

Why did TIM want the base then, if EDI already had all the info?

ITs pretty clear he want to make a reaper, since he dosent deny, and what else is that place for, its  a giant womb in other words, and wombs are fer making babies.

Sucks to be him since I hate his guts and dont believe or trust him, a unified and free galaxy can do more than an enslaved galaxy can.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...


You don't have to be a jerk about it. Even though you are right.

No, he's not right. Al Qeada did not exist then. We funded Afghan rebels. Osama travelled to Afghanistan to fight in the war against the Soviets which meant, as a resistance fighter, he used American given weapons. He did not create his terrorist organization until after the war.

Yes, technically. But many people make the connection Al Qaeda = Osama Bin Laden...and is that ACTUALLY wrong?  From personal memory, I don't think there has ever been a clear point where Osama Bin Laden personally "decided" to start using the term "Al Qaeda" in reference to his activities - activities that constitute as terrorism to the United States and the Soviet Union but as a holy military operation to him.

So if all of Bin Laden's activities were military (according to him), then when did Al Qaeda "start" to exist? Or is it merely a construct of the United States government/media used/popularized to give a name to an enemy for the public to rally against?

In practice, and certainly in this discussion, there is no difference between Osama = Al Queda = terrorism, so the statement that the "U.S. funded Al Qaeda (at one point)" is only incorrect if one chooses to be pedantic about it.

On the other hand, saying that the "U.S. funded the Taliban" is flat out wrong.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 13 juillet 2010 - 02:42 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

BTW, wiki implies that Al Qaeda did exist during the occupation of Afghanistan by the Soviets. Fine, not the best source of information, but I don't care enough about it to do some actual research on the topic.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda