3478 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Shandepared wrote...
Shepard is a Cerberus project. He is funded by Cerberus, supplied by Cerberus, and directed by Cerberus. Anything Shepard does Cerberus can take credit for.

Bringing Shepard back was a Cerberus project, and one that, given certain choices in the game, doesn't go all that well for TIM. Trying to paint everything Shepard does as being somehow indicative of Cerberus' level of competence due to Lazarus is blatant circular logic, since if it were indicative, they wouldn't have had to blow the resources to bring him back in the first place - they'd have been able to make do with what they had.

They couldn't.

Not to mention getting rid of their messes in ME1. If they are competent, an average monkey is competent in

Shand, you're going off into complete nonsense here. You're trying to use Cerberus screw-ups to prove how competent they are. At the time, Shep had nothing to do with Cerberus. How is Shep an example of them?

tvih wrote...

Also, I still don't get why people think the Collector base would yield any notably usable tech or info on the Reapers.

It has to do with the base being used for Reaper construction. Rational, logical people like myself see opportunity in this. Fearful, naive, egostical, selfish people like you see only the chance to spite the Illusive Man.

This is the point that I don't get. You've constructed this weird idea that anyone who isn't willing to trust Cerberus' abysmal record of experimentation as being 'naive, selfish' blah blah blah.

Cerberus' record in scientific experimentation and high-risk missions is is like a greek tragedy.

Project Overlord - near 100% casualties, destruction of base, narroly averted technological apocalypse.
Experimentation with Rachni - Failure, 100% casualties, infestation of Cerberus base and surrounding worlds
Infiltration of Ascension - Failure, loss of agent, potential security leak, loss of test subject, involvement exposed.
Infiltration of Quarian Flotilla - Failure, 100% casualties, loss of subject
Project Lazarus - near failure due to insufficient vetting of personnel, depending on player choices, loss of subject, crew, Normandy SR2
Experimentation on Pragia - Failure, 100% casualties, subject escaped
Investigation of derelict Reaper - 100% casualties, near- loss of objective
Omega operation - failure, betrayal resulting in desertion of whole team

It isn't 'selfish', 'naive' or 'spiteful' to exercise some hesitance in handing over Reaper tech to a group with a history of botch jobs like this. It's common frigging sense. The facts speak for themselves - Cerberus have a sobering track record for catastrophic failures.

The only naivete being demonstrated here is by those who disregard all this in this daft hope that Cerberus will miraculously come up with something useful without causing further damage.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:52 .

[PnXMarcin1PL]

I destroy Collector base because the Cerberus has already recovered a disabled Mass Accelerator weapon on Klendagon which was responsible for the destruction of a Derelict Reaper (the one where we fight husks). I believe sparing the base will cause a production/reproduction of a human reaper so the base will always go to hell (in my case).

[atheelogos]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I would say that a good portion, perhaps even a majority, of the people that destroy the Collector Base, do it because it feels good to them.  Tactics and logic mean little.  What matters is emotion, and that means they get to stick it to TIM.  They get to be a paragon, where their decisions are rewarded in a positive manner, regardless of how idiotic those decisions may be.  It satisfies their own arrogant self serving needs of emotional gratification. 

I like everything you said. Cold logic is the way to go.
"Tactics and logic mean little" And they should mean everything. I really hope there is a downside to destroying the base. Maybe next time people will think of the greater good once they learn their lesson.

[Markinator_123]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I would say that a good portion, perhaps even a majority, of the people that destroy the Collector Base, do it because it feels good to them.  Tactics and logic mean little.  What matters is emotion, and that means they get to stick it to TIM.  They get to be a paragon, where their decisions are rewarded in a positive manner, regardless of how idiotic those decisions may be.  It satisfies their own arrogant self serving needs of emotional gratification. 

Paragons should suffer massive human casualities for losing that base. The fact that people knows this is a video game means they understand it will turn out ok but destroying it is unbelievably stupid and makes no sense whatsovever. Not trusting Cerberus is no excuse to blow a valuable piece of technology that could put a major punch in the reapers. By blowing up that base you are facing the reapers on blind optimism.

[Asheer_Khan]

Markinator_123 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I would say that a good portion, perhaps even a majority, of the people that destroy the Collector Base, do it because it feels good to them.  Tactics and logic mean little.  What matters is emotion, and that means they get to stick it to TIM.  They get to be a paragon, where their decisions are rewarded in a positive manner, regardless of how idiotic those decisions may be.  It satisfies their own arrogant self serving needs of emotional gratification. 

Paragons should suffer massive human casualities for losing that base. The fact that people knows this is a video game means they understand it will turn out ok but destroying it is unbelievably stupid and makes no sense whatsovever. Not trusting Cerberus is no excuse to blow a valuable piece of technology that could put a major punch in the reapers. By blowing up that base you are facing the reapers on blind optimism.

Here we go again....

Why every pro base keeping people think that death camp is full of tech waiting only for  coping on datapads and put to mass production is a real mystery for me...

Like was posted in one of the base thread even IF there is something there it's very possible writen in (in best case) ancient Prothean language which decryption can take centuries (since except Liara, Shiala and  Shepard no one other can even say a single word in prothean)... OR what is more possible in totally unknown for anyone Reaper language... BUT MOST DEFINITIVE NOT IN ENGLISH.

However ID 4 syndrome is still very high possible when come to ME 3 because ME 3 newbies ( good job EA for killing this series) must have equal chance to kick Harby's butt back to dark space too...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 15 juillet 2010 - 10:25 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

We don't need to understand their language or code to understand their technology, Asheer_Khan. The laws of the universe are universal.

Mc'Gyver syndrome?

Do you even realize what you say?

You can't build a bomb just looking at schematic without any manual explaining how to connect battery to detonator and detonator to explosive stuff because propability that this bomb will explode during assebling is about 99%

Tat's why it's rather hazardous to try build such complexe thing like weapon or ship without manual explainig what part is answer for what part to hold everything together.

[didymos1120]

Markinator_123 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I would say that a good portion, perhaps even a majority, of the people that destroy the Collector Base, do it because it feels good to them.  Tactics and logic mean little.  What matters is emotion, and that means they get to stick it to TIM.  They get to be a paragon, where their decisions are rewarded in a positive manner, regardless of how idiotic those decisions may be.  It satisfies their own arrogant self serving needs of emotional gratification. 

Paragons should suffer massive human casualities for losing that base. The fact that people knows this is a video game means they understand it will turn out ok but destroying it is unbelievably stupid and makes no sense whatsovever. Not trusting Cerberus is no excuse to blow a valuable piece of technology that could put a major punch in the reapers. By blowing up that base you are facing the reapers on blind optimism.

I'm not going to get involved in the larger argument, but there does seem to be an unacknowledged assumption (or at least, I don't recall it being mentioned much) for the "Keep The Base" side:  that you'll actually have enough time to get anything particularly useful out of it.

As a ridiculous extreme, imagine that the Reaper horde somehow appears 10 seconds after the radiation pulse kills the Collectors.  Well crap.  Not only aren't you getting useful gadgets out of the thing, it's now kind of a liability.  The Reapers will surely not be content to let you occupy the thing.

Obviously, nothing so absurd as that will happen, but nonetheless, time-to-invasion is a factor.  That said, the obvious solution would be to have a rapid evac plan in place and rig the base for destruction on a moment's notice, so this isn't much of a point for the "Destroy the Base" side.  It just makes the potential gains from keeping it that much more uncertain, and it demonstrates that there's a healthy amount of optimisim on the "Keep" side too (if not quite so much).

[smudboy]

Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Mc'Gyver syndrome?

If I capture some chinese gunpowder I don't need to be able to speak or write or read mandarin to figure out how the gunpowder works or how it was made.

We have the machinery, after all. It's also worth noting EDI. She apparently can already decipher their 'language". It's what she did when she data mined the Collector ship and later when she was grabbing data from the Collector base.

...and EDI is made out of Reaper tech, having anti-Reaper algorithms.  Those crazy, non-Reaper researchers.  How dare they not ...understand...the...yeah I have no idea.

[Netzach]

Whatever you destroy it or not, TIM doesn't care, he is already making his reaper. The Mass Effect 2 ending is just a test, if your let it be then you are loyal to the cause and he will not distrust you any more, but if you destroy it then Miranda plays his role at it was planned "oh commander you where so right, we can't trust Cerberus i'm going with you, frak this..." but she is spying on you and sending reports to TIM about your activities.

Modifié par kanuvis, 16 juillet 2010 - 01:07 .

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

megatron999 wrote...

Curunen wrote...

I don't trust TIM with the base. It's reaper tech, and as Sovereign said we will be forced to develop down a path which they may be prepared for. Danger of indoctrination. And finally, yes it is an abomination - as long as it exists, it has the potential to be used for the wrong purpose.

You could say the same thing about the Atom bomb yet it worked on Japan.
Using the base will save millions of lives in the long run. There is a risk that TIM will misuse it but I thnik Sheperd will take over Cerberaus.

Another misplaced analogy. The nuclear-bomb drops on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary. Japan was already defeated, all they were doing was to find a way to end the war without loosing their face. They would have rather capitulated instead of their sacred homeland getting invaded. They had no more troops, no more ressources and no more material to fight for more than a month against the US. Keeping that in mind, it is a miracle that this is not considered as a warcrime, which it is.

It's debatable whether or not was necessary to use the A-bomb on Japan. While no one can know for sure how capable Japan was after Iwo Jima and Okinawa, they were far from ready or willing to surrender. (reference those two battles) I myself question whether or not it was necessary to drop the bomb. There are so many factors. The Allies demanded an unconditional surrender which some people in hindsight might find unnecessary. Operation Downfall (the planned invasion of Japan) was (based on the two previous battles mentioned above) projected to be a long and costly campaign. They even believed it would last well into the late '40s or early '50s. The A-Boomb was their shortcut to their demand for unconditional surrender.

You are right that at least by todays reasonable standard using a nuclear device primarily on civilians is a war crime. However since WW2 is often portrayed as a very black/white war, the losers are often looked at as the evildoers when in fact both sides committed some sort of attack on civilians. The British firebombed Dresden and the Americans did the same to Tokyo.

Ok, now I'm just rambling in my tired state. 

[Freakaz0idx]

I've had 5 full playthroughs. 3 paragon and 2 balanced. 4/5 times I kept the base. I just think it's so senseless to destroy something that can potentially save the galaxy, it's cold hard evidence that you can shove in the Council's face. Keeping the base should have been a paragon action but by TIM's face you can see he has an agenda.

By destroying the base you still have no evidence to show the Council or Alliance that the reapers are a threat. They have every reason to think that Shephard is a nutcase because we still haven't proven anything with solid evidence. Council space will be ill prepared when the reapers show up and they'll be slaughtered.
If going renegade, keeping the base and staying with Cerberus will increase my chances of defeating the reapers that's something my MainShep will do. I don't care if I'm exiled from Council space. If TIM gets out of hand I'll kill him.

Modifié par Freakaz0idx, 16 juillet 2010 - 02:36 .

[JaegerBane]

Shandepared wrote...

We don't need to understand their language or code to understand their technology, Asheer_Khan. The laws of the universe are universal.

And yet we needed to understand the prothean's language and code to understand their technology, and by all indications the protheans were far behind the Reapers in terms of technological advancement.

It doesn't really make any sense that we'd just magically leap this hurdle.

.

[bobdouglas1982]

I blow it up almost everytime depanding if I am going paragon or renegade you don't know the long term effects it could have over you it might evn cause indoctrination over time. Even with everything dead in it could still be dangers lets not forget the derelict Reaper. The facts are you cant be 100% sure if it is safe and dicide to use and you wrong who knows what the consequences could be so to me it is not worth the risks

[FuturePasTimeCE]

i'm playing from a different perspective... usually I blow the base... but i'll keep it on my 8th playthrough... just thinking in a perspective of collected people still being held captured and alive...

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Wow, 59 pages and neither side has won yet? Since arguments don't seem to work I'll just say "Go keep the base team!"

[Costin_Razvan]

If people could not win in the Loghain arguments in the Dragon Age forums, then neither side will win this argument.

[tvih]

Shandepared wrote...

tvih wrote...

Also, I still don't get why people think the Collector base would yield any notably usable tech or info on the Reapers.

It has to do with the base being used for Reaper construction. Rational, logical people like myself see opportunity in this. Fearful, naive, egostical, selfish people like you see only the chance to spite the Illusive Man.

Yeah, and maybe read the rest of my post too? Doing that would rational and logical. You might even notice why I think you might not get anything notably useful from the base.

Also, when you call others - essentially without a basis - fearful, naive, egotistical and selfish...  you do know that it basically makes you the latter two? Not to mention an ****. Honestly, there's nothing egotistical or selfish being on one or another side of the argument by default, unless you happen to be "there's no way but mine!" which you seem to represent quite well. Attacking people personally over their decisions and motivations in a video game certainly doesn't lend any credence to your views.

It'll be funny if keeping the base ends up in a worse situation that destroying it in ME3. Then we'll get all the "keepers" calling the game crap just because of that, since their smart, selfless and informed decision was *gasp* wrong