3478 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
No. The big picture is the Reapers' threat to life in the galaxy. Shepard's goal needs to be to defeat the Reapers, not defeat the Reapers with only the allies he cares for.

And since when does handing over Reaper kit to a bunch of loonies who repeatedly demonstrated they aren't fit to carry out the task fit into Shepard's goal? If they were an option to hand it over to the Citadel or the Alliance, then I'd have taken it.

This is not a question about which allies shep cares for - this is a question of is the risk of terrible collateral damage worth the vague chance that we'll get something useful out of that base? Cerberus' track record speaks for itself.

They've very nearly weakened the galaxy to a critical level with their idiocy already. What kind of defence do you think the galaxy could mount if the worst case result occured from Overlord, hmmm?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 16 juillet 2010 - 03:18 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

JaegerBane wrote...

And since when does handing over Reaper kit to a bunch of loonies who repeatedly demonstrated they aren't fit to carry out the task fit into Shepard's goal? If they were an option to hand it over to the Citadel or the Alliance, then I'd have taken it.

This is not a question about which allies shep cares for - this is a question of is the risk of terrible collateral damage worth the vague chance that we'll get something useful out of that base? Cerberus' track record speaks for itself.

They've very nearly weakened the galaxy to a critical level with their idiocy already. What kind of defence do you think the galaxy could mount if the worst case result occured from Overlord, hmmm?

I don't particularly like the point I'm about to raise, but it comes down to the fact that Shepard only has experience with failed/rogue Cerberus cells. It would be pretty silly to have a mission where you visited a Cerberus cell where nothing bad was happening. Cerberus has a ton of private funding, and unlike a government, funding goes dry when you suck at what you do. Cerberus is a successful, albeit extreme, organization with blemishes in their track record but still get results. The potential gain of keeping the base far outweighs its potential risks.

[JaegerBane]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

I don't particularly like the point I'm about to raise, but it comes down to the fact that Shepard only has experience with failed/rogue Cerberus cells. It would be pretty silly to have a mission where you visited a Cerberus cell where nothing bad was happening. Cerberus has a ton of private funding, and unlike a government, funding goes dry when you suck at what you do. Cerberus is a successful, albeit extreme, organization with blemishes in their track record but still get results.

This is some pretty far out conjecture. We know TIM likes to have personal involvement in everything Cerberus does, so the idea that we've only seen the bad cells and there's actually a selection of 'better' cells that pull stuff off all the time simply isn't supported by what we know. TIM has involvement in all of them, and his track record is poor.

Just look at Project Lazarus - by all accounts, the most important and expensive of all Cerberus activities, overseen by no less than TIM's right-hand agent. And look how close *that* came to flatlining.

Cerberus' 'success' tends to be from the fact that their income is guaranteed no matter how much they screw up. When the 'blemishes' that you mention seem to define their most resourced and funded ops, I'm not sure it makes sense to hope that there are other cells that miraculously succeed.

The potential gain of keeping the base far outweighs its potential risks.

Can you seriously back this up with anything further than opinion? We have no info whatsoever as to what exactly Cerberus could produce from that base... but we have plenty of info on the potential consequences of their involvement. Their lack of intelligent risk management, their lack of patience, their questionable judgement - it all boils down to a very ugly picture. Combine that with the issue that every species that has tried to deal with the Reapers by building bigger and better has failed miserably.

This is a case of taking a colossal risk on a vague wing and a prayer that it will be somehow worth it.

Nothing more.

[lovgreno]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...Cerberus has a ton of private funding, and unlike a government, funding goes dry when you suck at what you do.

I wish that was true but sadly it's basicaly the same in private sector. A smooth talker like TIM can keep people paying for his vague promises and agenda.

[Ismelda]

I did destroy the base because:

1 - I do not like the human point of view of the galaxy. (I even saved the council on ME1 because I couldn't bear to have those puny humans ruling the galaxy as if they knew better. Without me they wouldn't even be in this position).

2 - I wanted to ****** off The Illusive Man once and for all and be free of his shackles.

3 - I am Shepard and they are not. I do what I want as long as I get the job done.

I also saved the rachni and Wrex, the heretics were reprogrammed, the Quarien were not sent to war and the gray box is still in Kasumi possession, also I have some evidences against Cerberus I kept for myself and all my crew survived on the suicide mission.

So I wont be lured into doing what the Reapers want aka using their technology to go the way they want us to go like they did with the Citadel and the Mass Effect relays.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lovgreno wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...Cerberus has a ton of private funding, and unlike a government, funding goes dry when you suck at what you do.

I wish that was true but sadly it's basicaly the same in private sector. A smooth talker like TIM can keep people paying for his vague promises and agenda.

That's very true I would agree with you, but TIM does not have the ability to tax. So more precisely stated I'd say it's much harder for Cerberus to suck at what they do and retain funding than it is the Systems Alliance. The Systems Alliance will retain its funding no matter how incompetent their leaders are. My main point is that Cerberus is not just some group of idiots incapable of producing anything useful. They are a fringe group with questionable means that gets things done.

[smudboy]

[quote]Ismelda wrote...

I did destroy the base because:

2 - I wanted to ****** off The Illusive Man once and for all and be free of his shackles.

[LorDC]

smudboy wrote...

Ismelda wrote...

I did destroy the base because:

2 - I wanted to ****** off The Illusive Man once and for all and be free of his shackles.

There should be big poster in this thread saying something like this:
If even for one brief moment you considered destroying base because of your personal feelings for TIM you should stop playing ME because your not worthy enough to save galaxy(even in video game).

Modifié par LorDC, 16 juillet 2010 - 05:51 .

[Enfuego]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...Cerberus has a ton of private funding, and unlike a government, funding goes dry when you suck at what you do.

I wish that was true but sadly it's basicaly the same in private sector. A smooth talker like TIM can keep people paying for his vague promises and agenda.

That's very true I would agree with you, but TIM does not have the ability to tax. So more precisely stated I'd say it's much harder for Cerberus to suck at what they do and retain funding than it is the Systems Alliance. The Systems Alliance will retain its funding no matter how incompetent their leaders are. My main point is that Cerberus is not just some group of idiots incapable of producing anything useful. They are a fringe group with questionable means that gets things done.

Terrorist and paramilitary organizations in the real world manage to secure a lot of funding that has nothing to do with their ability to produce any thing of direct economic value.  Hamas or Al Qaeda aren't exactly putting people to work building cars or growing crops, but a lot of funding finds its way to them from anonymous third parties who appreciate their anti western/anti Israel agendas.  

Cerberus' funding could be almost exclusively on the basis of their terrorist/pro human activities, or even from corporate interests that get access to some of their unethical scientific data.  Their backers are likely people like Mirranda's father; those who have vast wealth and want to leave a legacy of dominance.  In fact, not to get side tracked too much, but does any one else ever think about the parallels between TIM and Mirranda's father, and wonder if there isn't a connection there that Mirranda doesn't know about?

Any way, I wouldn't even say that Cerberus is incompetent.  Incompetence implies that TIM really didn't know what was going on, or would have chosen a safer course at the cost of less knowledge.  Who's to say that he didn't get what he wanted from the project that "created" Jack, or the study of the "dead" reaper?   TIM shows no concern at all for the death or suffering of humans to advance the agenda of a stronger humanity.  He might be completely okay with projects that push themselves to the point of annihilation, as long as he can scoop up the valuable pieces later.

Modifié par Enfuego, 16 juillet 2010 - 05:57 .

[Enfuego]

LorDC wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ismelda wrote...

I did destroy the base because:

2 - I wanted to ****** off The Illusive Man once and for all and be free of his shackles.

There should be big poster in this thread saying something like this:
If even for one brief moment you considered destroying base because of your personal feelings for TIM you should stop playing ME because your not worthy enough to save galaxy(even in video game).

Cool opinion, bro.

[Markinator_123]

LorDC wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ismelda wrote...

I did destroy the base because:

2 - I wanted to ****** off The Illusive Man once and for all and be free of his shackles.

There should be big poster in this thread saying something like this:
If even for one brief moment you considered destroying base because of your personal feelings for TIM you should stop playing ME because your not worthy enough to save galaxy(even in video game).

I 100% support this.

[Enfuego]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

DaBigDragon wrote...

Not destroying the Collector Base would be like not stopping the **** Concentration Camps in World War II because we could "learn from" the methods and technologies used there.

That's not a very good analogy. Don't get me wrong, I think keeping the base is foolish, but there was no looming threat to make grabbing new tech vital in WWII. This would be more like stopping the concentration camps... But knowing that if you let them run, they might give you a significant advantage against Cthulhu or something. 

Actually there was the looming threat of Communism, which many people considered to be as terrifying as Cthulhu.

I think what is actually getting lost in the conversation is that the Collector base, some what like the WWII example, isn't actually guaranteed to yield anything of value in defeating the reapers.  The assumption by those who want to keep it is that it will definitely yield results and that without those results the galaxy will definitely be at a disadvantage, but none of that is foreseeable, because no one knows what the time frame will be for discovery, nor what will be discovered, nor what the time frame is for the reapers to arrive. 

My concern would be that whatever comes from the collector base does little or nothing to stop the reapers, but creates an even greater threat to the galaxy as a whole.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Enfuego wrote...

Terrorist and paramilitary organizations in the real world manage to secure a lot of funding that has nothing to do with their ability to produce any thing of direct economic value.  Hamas or Al Qaeda aren't exactly putting people to work building cars or growing crops, but a lot of funding finds its way to them from anonymous third parties who appreciate their anti western/anti Israel agendas.  

Cerberus' funding could be almost exclusively on the basis of their terrorist/pro human activities, or even from corporate interests that get access to some of their unethical scientific data.  Their backers are likely people like Mirranda's father; those who have vast wealth and want to leave a legacy of dominance.  In fact, not to get side tracked too much, but does any one else ever think about the parallels between TIM and Mirranda's father, and wonder if there isn't a connection there that Mirranda doesn't know about?

Any way, I wouldn't even say that Cerberus is incompetent.  Incompetence implies that TIM really didn't know what was going on, or would have chosen a safer course at the cost of less knowledge.  Who's to say that he didn't get what he wanted from the project that "created" Jack, or the study of the "dead" reaper?   TIM shows no concern at all for the death or suffering of humans to advance the agenda of a stronger humanity.  He might be completely okay with projects that push themselves to the point of annihilation, as long as he can scoop up the valuable pieces later.

True, but Cerberus is getting some sort of results. If every Cerberus experiment failed they would no longer receive funding no matter what their motives were. Cerberus is for the advancement of humanity. Even if you think they are xenophobic, if they had no progression towards their goal they would no longer receive funding. Hamas/Al Qaeda get funding because they do what their investors want. If they sat on their butts all day and did nothing their funding would dry up and another group would emerge and claim those investments. If Cerberus sucked at what they did, a better human activist group would arise that produced results and Cerberus funders would fund the new group instead. It's just a market. The fact is, Cerberus is very good at what they do, and it would make absolutely no sense if they were not good at what they do and have nearly unlimited resources.

[Enfuego]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Enfuego wrote...

Terrorist and paramilitary organizations in the real world manage to secure a lot of funding that has nothing to do with their ability to produce any thing of direct economic value.  Hamas or Al Qaeda aren't exactly putting people to work building cars or growing crops, but a lot of funding finds its way to them from anonymous third parties who appreciate their anti western/anti Israel agendas.  

Cerberus' funding could be almost exclusively on the basis of their terrorist/pro human activities, or even from corporate interests that get access to some of their unethical scientific data.  Their backers are likely people like Mirranda's father; those who have vast wealth and want to leave a legacy of dominance.  In fact, not to get side tracked too much, but does any one else ever think about the parallels between TIM and Mirranda's father, and wonder if there isn't a connection there that Mirranda doesn't know about?

Any way, I wouldn't even say that Cerberus is incompetent.  Incompetence implies that TIM really didn't know what was going on, or would have chosen a safer course at the cost of less knowledge.  Who's to say that he didn't get what he wanted from the project that "created" Jack, or the study of the "dead" reaper?   TIM shows no concern at all for the death or suffering of humans to advance the agenda of a stronger humanity.  He might be completely okay with projects that push themselves to the point of annihilation, as long as he can scoop up the valuable pieces later.

True, but Cerberus is getting some sort of results. If every Cerberus experiment failed they would no longer receive funding no matter what their motives were. Cerberus is for the advancement of humanity. Even if you think they are xenophobic, if they had no progression towards their goal they would no longer receive funding. Hamas/Al Qaeda get funding because they do what their investors want. If they sat on their butts all day and did nothing their funding would dry up and another group would emerge and claim those investments. If Cerberus sucked at what they did, a better human activist group would arise that produced results and Cerberus funders would fund the new group instead. It's just a market. The fact is, Cerberus is very good at what they do, and it would make absolutely no sense if they were not good at what they do and have nearly unlimited resources.

Well like I said, I don't think they're incompetent.  I just think they're evil or at least completely amoral.  The dilemma with the base is whether you choose to side with the lesser of two evils (Cerberus) or whether you choose another path so as not to make Cerberus stronger.  There are some definite real life parallels to consider.  For example, in WW2 we gave a lot of aid to the Soviet Union, even though the threat of Communism was, in some people's minds, just as great a threat as fascism.  The western powers were desperate to win the war, so they chose to side with the lesser of two evils.  This strategy worked well for defeating **** Germany, but then we had a 50 year cold war.  If the Allies had taken the longer view, they might have been able to win the one war, at greater cost, but at the result of a world free from the threat of fascism and communism.

Or consider the USA's arming and funding of the Mujahideen freedom fighters in Afghanistan.  This was an indispensable element of the defeat of the Soviet aggression, but it was also an indispensable element in forging the power of the power of the Taliban and leading elements of Al Qaeda.  Bin Laden was taught his craft by the CIA, supposedly.  What was the cost of choosing the lesser of two evils?  More evil.

In either of these examples you can make the argument that the right choice was made, to confront the more immediate threat, or that the wrong choice was made, exchanging temporary victory for long term strife.  It's impossible to know what the consequences would have been if the USSR had been left unaided against Germany, or if the USA hadn't provided weapons and training to the Mujahideen.  Would we live in a world without Al Qaeda, or would we live in a world where the cold war never ended?

It's not hard to imagine a future where the reapers are defeated, but now you have this very wide ranging and amoral organization like Ceberus sitting on top of a Reaper factory which no one but them can even access (thanks to the IFF system built into the Omega 4 relay).  What happens when Cerberus is holding all the cards?  As far as we know, Shepard's mission is the only time they've ever been desparate enough to employ or tolerate aliens, and they have no particular affiliation with the citadel, the alliance, or any one else that we know of.  No one really seems to fit the profile of what TIM thinks humanity needs, so it's more or less a foregone conclusion that Cerberus' next target will be the existing power structure.  What happens when they decide to unleash a "friendly" reaper on the galaxy?

Modifié par Enfuego, 16 juillet 2010 - 06:42 .

[smudboy]

Enfuego wrote...
What was the cost of choosing the lesser of two evils?  More evil.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Evil isn't going away buddy. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to get results, and when it's all life in the galaxy at stake, you cannot be playing idealist.

[bobdouglas1982]

I dont know I just got a bad feeling that keeping the base is going come back to hunt you somehow everybody says you did the might think when you destroy it dont get me wrong i do keep it in some games

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Ismelda wrote...

I did destroy the base because:
1 - I do not like the human point of view of the galaxy. (I even saved the council on ME1 because I couldn't bear to have those puny humans ruling the galaxy as if they knew better. Without me they wouldn't even be in this position).
2 - I wanted to ****** off The Illusive Man once and for all and be free of his shackles.
3 - I am Shepard and they are not. I do what I want as long as I get the job done.
I also saved the rachni and Wrex, the heretics were reprogrammed, the Quarien were not sent to war and the gray box is still in Kasumi possession, also I have some evidences against Cerberus I kept for myself and all my crew survived on the suicide mission.
So I wont be lured into doing what the Reapers want aka using their technology to go the way they want us to go like they did with the Citadel and the Mass Effect relays.

Dude, I'm all for keeping the base, but none of those are rational reasons for keeping the base. If anything, you just "proved" the opinion of those who claim that we destroy the base to spite TIM, no matter how we rationalize our decision.

They (e.g. smudboy) can fight/generalize emotions. It's actual reasoning and logic that confuses them, proven time and time again. That's why if we make a valid point, it gets ignored. However, if we say we hate TIM, then they pounce, like flies on crap. Stick with logic and reason people.

[Markinator_123]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Evil isn't going away buddy. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to get results, and when it's all life in the galaxy at stake, you cannot be playing idealist.

You have to keep in mind that paragon choices work

in fiction.

[nov_pl]

Pretty silly reasoning isn't it? Once again, people's mistrust of the Illusive man, cloud their minds from seeing the big picture.

So the big picture is the Reapers in the neibrohood.  You thing Cerberus would make that much use of the Collectors tech? I mean THAT much, so it can stand against the Reapers allone?

[Markinator_123]

bobdouglas1982 wrote...

I dont know I just got a bad feeling that keeping the base is going come back to hunt you somehow everybody says you did the might think when you destroy it dont get me wrong i do keep it in some games

This just shows that the paragon choice is the popular choice not the right one. There is a reason why you are in charge and not those misfits. Leadership requires making unpopular decisions.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:08 .

[bobdouglas1982]

Markinator_123 wrote...

bobdouglas1982 wrote...

I dont know I just got a bad feeling that keeping the base is going come back to hunt you somehow everybody says you did the might think when you destroy it dont get me wrong i do keep it in some games

This just shows that the paragon choice is the popular choice not the right one. There is a reason why you are in charge and not those misfits. Leadership requires making unpopular decisions.

 I know you are in charge  and you have to make tough choices but I dont trust the IM at all and If you are going to hand over something that you dont know anything about  to someone who cant be trusted well then that just plan stupid

[Markinator_123]

nov_pl wrote...

Pretty silly reasoning isn't it? Once again, people's mistrust of the Illusive man, cloud their minds from seeing the big picture.

So the big picture is the Reapers in the neibrohood.  You thing Cerberus would make that much use of the Collectors tech? I mean THAT much, so it can stand against the Reapers allone?

You are dedicating every possible resource against the reapers. The base won't win the war but it will help. By the way, whoever said anything about standing against the reapers alone? What you should be doing is making sure you have every possible advantage in this war.