3478 réponses à ce sujet

[UpDownLeftRight]

Ah, the classical: I will ignore you because I don't like what you're saying.
Very mature.

smudboy wrote...
About T.I.M

I doubt he didn't know about them(the experiments). If he didn't he is either very easily fooled or inept.

I agree on this though. Whatever T.I.M might become is not really that important. The Reapers are the problem. T.I.M should be dealt with when/if he becomes a problem.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 20 juillet 2010 - 02:42 .

[wulf3n]

smudboy wrote...
Whatever imagination you have for your Shepard is meaningless, though now that we know, quite...um, nevermind.

My point was, that even though bioware will most likely put in a way to lose the war against the reapers, defeating them will be as simple as having everyone survive the suicide mission, hence i could defeat the entire Reaper fleet myself with a martini in one hand a pistol in the other.
edit: Hence, the Collector base is completely useless, I'm not risking the safety of the galaxy, because i am all it needs.

smudboy wrote...
TIM isn't a threat. 

and you say I'm blind 

smudboy wrote...
Yet the known galaxy knows more about TIM than they do the Reapers, and I'm quite sure they can deal with a few hundred humans.  The Council knows about Cerberus, but they're denying the existence of the Reapers.  Keeping the base might help solve that.  You yourself mentioned that the Reapers are the greater threat. What's the real reason here?

There's a difference. TIM hasn't openly revealed himself the entire galaxy, Whereas anyone who was on the citadel, including all the major races governments (with the exception of the batarians) have witnessed the reapers, even if they don't know exactly what they are, they just choose to ignore the threat .

smudboy wrote...
I don't like TIM all that much either.  TIM's previous actions involve 1) resurrecting Shepard, 2) giving Shepard a state of the art warship, 3) getting him a list of badasses for some magical mystery tour, 4) having amazing timing on everything plot related, like being able to pull a dead Reaper out of his ass 5) didn't provide all information so Shepard and crew got purposely caught on the Diabled Collector Cruiser because he knew the risks justified the reward, 6) asking Shepard to go on a Suicide Mission.

Don't forget risked an intergalactic war, despite the looming reaper threat, for a single biotic.

smudboy wrote...
I certaintly didn't like all those experiments on people and such that Cererus cells made, but we learn that TIM is not ambiguously gray: he simply didn't know of the types of experiments being performed.  He is an "ends justify the means" kind of guy, but not if those ends involve sacrificing humans in unethical experiments.  ME2 has made this clear.

It would be naive to assume that TIM is telling you the truth, mainly because he has no reservations killing humans that are counter productive to his goals, even those that share his views.

Modifié par wulf3n, 20 juillet 2010 - 02:44 .

[smudboy]

wulf3n wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Whatever imagination you have for your Shepard is meaningless, though now that we know, quite...um, nevermind.

My point was, that even though bioware will most likely put in a way to lose the war against the reapers, defeating them will be as simple as having everyone survive the suicide mission, hence i could defeat the entire Reaper fleet myself with a martini in one hand a pistol in the other.

I actually believe defeating them won't involve saving your crew, nor keeping the base.

smudboy wrote...
TIM isn't a threat. 

and you say I'm blind 

And how is TIM a threat?

smudboy wrote...
Yet the known galaxy knows more about TIM than they do the Reapers, and I'm quite sure they can deal with a few hundred humans.  The Council knows about Cerberus, but they're denying the existence of the Reapers.  Keeping the base might help solve that.  You yourself mentioned that the Reapers are the greater threat. What's the real reason here?

There's a difference. TIM hasn't openly revealed himself the entire galaxy, Whereas anyone who was on the citadel, including all the major races governments (with the exception of the batarians) have witnessed the reapers, even if they don't know exactly what they are, they just choose to ignore the threat .

The people don't know what that was.  The Council has called Sovereign a Geth ship.  So that's what the people believe.  The Council, as do people in the Alliance, know what Cerberus is.  I would imagine independent contractors and 3rd parties and the such already do too (e.g. STG (Mordin), Asari Commandos, etc.)

Only a few individuals know about the Reapers.

They would also all agree that if they did know about a million year old sentient AI race that want to destroy everything would be a greater threat than 150 humans with alien technology.  Do the math.

smudboy wrote...
I don't like TIM all that much either.  TIM's previous actions involve 1) resurrecting Shepard, 2) giving Shepard a state of the art warship, 3) getting him a list of badasses for some magical mystery tour, 4) having amazing timing on everything plot related, like being able to pull a dead Reaper out of his ass 5) didn't provide all information so Shepard and crew got purposely caught on the Diabled Collector Cruiser because he knew the risks justified the reward, 6) asking Shepard to go on a Suicide Mission.

Don't forget risked an intergalactic war, despite the looming reaper threat, for a single biotic.

I only know TIM from ME2, and Cerberus from ME1.

smudboy wrote...
I certaintly didn't like all those experiments on people and such that Cererus cells made, but we learn that TIM is not ambiguously gray: he simply didn't know of the types of experiments being performed.  He is an "ends justify the means" kind of guy, but not if those ends involve sacrificing humans in unethical experiments.  ME2 has made this clear.

It would be naive to assume that TIM is telling you the truth, mainly because he has no reservations killing humans that are counter productive to his goals, even those that share his views.

I don't recall TIM killing humans, but individual cells in Cerberus using humans in live experiments.

TIM isn't above risking peoples lives, however, for the greater good, as we see on the Disabled Collector Cruiser, even though he believed Shepard would be successful.  But this is what all military operations are, anyway.

However this is completely ridiculous due to the scale of the alternative.  Again, you're basing your opinion on destroying the base because you don't like TIM and a few minor gripes that aren't even comparable.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

smudboy wrote...
I certaintly didn't like all those experiments on people and such that Cererus cells made, but we learn that TIM is not ambiguously gray: he simply didn't know of the types of experiments being performed.  He is an "ends justify the means" kind of guy, but not if those ends involve sacrificing humans in unethical experiments.  ME2 has made this clear.

Wow, how stupid are you? TIM is a guy that explicitly said that "information is his weapon." Yet, you still believe that?

Spudboy, pwned by a fictional video game character. You would make a GREAT replacement for Miranda - he basically has you eating out of his virtual hand. 

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I certaintly didn't like all those experiments on people and such that Cererus cells made, but we learn that TIM is not ambiguously gray: he simply didn't know of the types of experiments being performed.  He is an "ends justify the means" kind of guy, but not if those ends involve sacrificing humans in unethical experiments.  ME2 has made this clear.

Wow, how stupid are you? TIM is a guy that explicitly said that "information is his weapon." Yet, you still believe that?

Spudboy, pwned by a fictional video game character. You would make a GREAT replacement for Miranda - he basically has you eating out of his virtual hand. 

According to you, stupid enough.

TIM may very well be lying, and I could totally understand if he did know of the unethical experiments being conducted.  But we can't clearly point to one and say he does know.  (See Miranda's lampshading.)  Which is odd, since I thought of him as being an unethically gray character, but he's not portrayed as such.

[wulf3n]

smudboy wrote...
I actually believe defeating them won't involve saving your crew, nor keeping the base.

Exactly which is my point, if i know the base is ultimately irrelevant to the grand scheme of things, then i see no need to give it to someone who's just as dangerous.

smudboy wrote...
And how is TIM a threat?

He has a proven track record of getting rid of people that could be "troublesome"

smudboy wrote...
The people don't know what that was.  The Council has called Sovereign a Geth ship.  So that's what the people believe.  The Council, as do people in the Alliance, know what Cerberus is.  I would imagine independent contractors and 3rd parties and the such already do too (e.g. STG (Mordin), Asari Commandos, etc.)

And those same people would have access to the Reaper conversations between Shepard and the council.

smudboy wrote...
They would also all agree that if they did know about a million year old sentient AI race that want to destroy everything would be a greater threat than 150 humans with alien technology.  Do the math.

Again, a different type of threat. Like comparing having to fight people with guns trying to kill you, and trying to fight cancer. Both deadly, but in different ways. I wouldn't ignore either.

smudboy wrote...
I only know TIM from ME2, and Cerberus from ME1.

Ascension is a pretty good book, worth reading if your into the Mass Effect Universe. It does however show TIM in a very different light.

smudboy wrote...
I don't recall TIM killing humans, but individual cells in Cerberus using humans in live experiments.

TIM isn't above risking peoples lives, however, for the greater good, as we see on the Disabled Collector Cruiser, even though he believed Shepard would be successful.  But this is what all military operations are, anyway.

However this is completely ridiculous due to the scale of the alternative.  Again, you're basing your opinion on destroying the base because you don't like TIM and a few minor gripes that aren't even comparable.

Again, Ascension, and Again, my personal feelings for TIM aren't a factor for my decision, if i had no knowledge of what TIM has done I would ... Ok i would still blow up the base but not because of TIM, but because i like to end a game with a big splosion 

Modifié par wulf3n, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:09 .

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
That's meta-gaming. If you're gonna go that route then really you shouldn't be concerned about the Reapers at all because you know you can't lose. Worst case scenario you load an auto-save.

Exactly.

also with my canon shepard, loading an auto save isn't an option...unless of course i die because of some stupid glitch 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Have the writer or developers ever mentioned why the choice was limitied to either giving it to Cerberus or destroying it?

[smudboy]

[quote]wulf3n wrote...

[quote]smudboy wrote...
I actually believe defeating them won't involve saving your crew, nor keeping the base.
[/quote]
Exactly which is my point, if i know the base is ultimately irrelevant to the grand scheme of things, then i see no need to give it to someone who's just as dangerous.
[/quote]
No that is not your exact point.  You're rambling on about TIM being badder than the Reapers, even when you mentioned they weren't, because we're going to have a TIM war or some crap like that.

You haven't argued or changed the fact that keeping the base is the most logical and prudent thing to do.

[quote]
[quote]smudboy wrote...
And how is TIM a threat?
[/quote]

He has a proven track record of getting rid of people that could be "troublesome"
[/quote]
Really?  I wish he could do that with Reapers...

He also has a proven track record of breaking the laws of physics to keep people who are "helpful."

[quote]
[quote]smudboy wrote...
The people don't know what that was.  The Council has called Sovereign a Geth ship.  So that's what the people believe.  The Council, as do people in the Alliance, know what Cerberus is.  I would imagine independent contractors and 3rd parties and the such already do too (e.g. STG (Mordin), Asari Commandos, etc.)
[/quote]

And those same people would have access to the Reaper conversations between Shepard and the council.
[/quote]
What, the general public? No they wouldn't.  What, the STG, Asari Commandos?  At the same time, same room?  Huh?

[quote]
[quote]smudboy wrote...
They would also all agree that if they did know about a million year old sentient AI race that want to destroy everything would be a greater threat than 150 humans with alien technology.  Do the math.
[/quote]
Again, a different type of threat. Like comparing having to fight people with guns trying to kill you, and trying to fight cancer. Both deadly, but in different ways. I wouldn't ignore either.
[/quote]
Yes, TIM and the Reapers are completely two different types of threats.  I'm glad we agree.  Now stop being blind or stupid and admit that one is clearly worse than the other.  Oh wait you did already.  So why are you arguing?

It's like comparing a massive fleet of nigh-indestructible warships of ungodly genius and power who have the singular goal  to destroy everything, as opposed to 150 humans with modern cruisers who want to protect humanity, and don't always follow their leaders' orders.

[quote]
[quote]smudboy wrote...
I only know TIM from ME2, and Cerberus from ME1.
[/quote]

Ascension is a pretty good book, worth reading if your into the Mass Effect Universe. It does however show TIM in a very different light.
[/quote]
Irrelevant to the games.

[quote]
[quote]smudboy wrote...
I don't recall TIM killing humans, but individual cells in Cerberus using humans in live experiments.

TIM isn't above risking peoples lives, however, for the greater good, as we see on the Disabled Collector Cruiser, even though he believed Shepard would be successful.  But this is what all military operations are, anyway.

However this is completely ridiculous due to the scale of the alternative.  Again, you're basing your opinion on destroying the base because you don't like TIM and a few minor gripes that aren't even comparable.
[/quote]
Again, Ascension, and Again, my personal feelings for TIM aren't a factor for my decision, if i had no knowledge of what TIM has done I would ... Ok i would still blow up the base but not because of TIM, but because i like to end a game with a big splosion [/quote]
Great, so now you've replaced emotions for TIM to because you simply like explosions.

But have you seen big blue explosions? Ooooh.  Yeah we're done.

Modifié par smudboy, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:25 .

[wulf3n]

smudboy wrote...
No that is not your exact point.  You're rambling on about TIM being badder than the Reapers, even when you mentioned they weren't, because we're going to have a TIM war or some crap like that.

I'm curios, do you even read my posts? or just disagree with them?
I've never said TIM was worse than the reapers, only that he's just as big a threat, and for different reasons.

smudboy wrote...

You haven't argued or changed the fact that keeping the base is the most logical and prudent thing to do.

I'm all for keeping the base, I'm just not going to give it to someone who will use it for their own ends.

smudboy wrote...
Really?  I wish he could do that with Reapers...

That's where Shepard comes in. Your his tool for defeating the Reapers.

smudboy wrote..

He also has a proven track record of breaking the laws of physics to keep people who are "helpful."

I never said he hasn't.

smudboy wrote...
What, the general public? No they wouldn't.  What, the STG, Asari Commandos?  At the same time, same room?  Huh?

You brought up the STG and Asari Commandos and if they have access to Info on TIM, i'm sure they have access to unsecure conversations between The council and Shepard.

smudboy wrote...
Yes, TIM and the Reapers are completely two different types of threats.  I'm glad we agree.  Now stop being blind or stupid and admit that one is clearly worse than the other.  Oh wait you did already.  So why are you arguing?

Because ignoring TIM as a threat is naive and short sighted.

smudboy wrote...

It's like comparing a massive fleet of nigh-indestructible warships of ungodly genius and power who have the singular goal  to destroy everything, as opposed to 150 humans with modern cruisers who want to protect humanity, and don't always follow their leaders' orders.

But I'm not here to protect just "humanity" I'm here to protect all sentient life in the galaxy.

smudboy wrote...
Irrelevant to the games.

How so? the games themselves make reference to them! so clearly the events that happen in the book, happened in the game.

smudboy wrote...
Great, so now you've replaced emotions for TIM to because you simply like explosions.

But have you seen big blue explosions? Ooooh.  Yeah we're done.

Again, my decisions were never based on emotions. If they were however, my feelings for TIM, would have been Trumped by my desire to blow the crap out of the collector base.

Modifié par wulf3n, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:48 .

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...
 how would you stop them anyway?

You've got the ship with the cloaking field, advanced weaponry, and boarding crew from hell waiting for them when they try to come in and grab it.  

However, you never get the opportunity to destroy the base because you don't want TIM to have it.  Instead, the best you can do is make equivocations about how the base is inherently evil because people died there.  Pathetic.  

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
You aren't necissarily giving it to Cerbers, you just aren't destroying it. Of-course this means that Cerberus is going to grab it first... and how would you stop them anyway?

Yeah, I know. But I wouldn't be too surprised if it will end up in the control of Cerberus.

Since the Normandy is a very powerful ship I'd say that it could be used to fight against T.I.M.

It is never said how other Cerberus ships can pass through the Omega 4 Relay but I'd guess that EDI sent a copy of the Reaper IFF to Cerberus HQ.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 20 juillet 2010 - 05:39 .

[wulf3n]

Terraneaux wrote...
However, you never get the opportunity to destroy the base

wait...

Terraneaux wrote...
 because you don't want TIM to have it.

what?

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I blew it up because i didn't want to go on another damned suicide mission when cerberus decides to make their own alien shakes with it.

[mosor]

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
You aren't necissarily giving it to Cerbers, you just aren't destroying it. Of-course this means that Cerberus is going to grab it first... and how would you stop them anyway?

Yeah, I know. But I wouldn't be too surprised if it will end up in the control of Cerberus.

Since the Normandy is a very powerful ship I'd say that it could be used to fight against T.I.M.

It is never said how other Cerberus ships can pass through the Omega 4 Relay but I'd guess that EDI sent a copy of the Reaper IFF to Cerberus HQ.

Why do you need a Reaper Indentify Friend Foe becon to enter the relay when all the collectos manning the base are dead? No one to send that signal to.

[SizzlinKola]

If you keep the Collector base, The Illusive Man is deviously smiling while looking at it's hologram.

[mosor]

SizzlinKola wrote...

If you keep the Collector base, The Illusive Man is deviously smiling while looking at it's hologram.

I personally think people read more into that smile than it actually is. If it was Anderson, would that smile be described as devious or sinister? Wouldn't the simplest explanation for that smile be that we just won a great victory and may possibly have the tools to defend ourselves from extinction?

[Giggles_Manically]

Or maybe Nekyia Corridor just finnaly downloaded for him. Yah never know.

[Sniper11709]

tvih wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...
Keeping the base because of a will to survive is an emotional reason.
Destryoing the collector base is based on an emotional reason.

You want to keep the base? Good for you.
You want to destroy the base? Good for you.

Both of these arguments are based on emotional reasons.

Quite true.

It's funny when one side of an argument calls out the other as being "emotional" - like it's always a bad thing - when normal humans can't even truly be "non-emotional". I'm not sure if even sociopaths etc can. Their emotions might be twisted, but they still have them in some form. We can't completely eliminate emotional responses from affecting our decisions and reasons.

I for one would not want to survive if surviving meant possibly becoming as bad as that I'm trying to defend against.

Somehow it leads me into thinking situations where a nuclear war scenario is described - one country launches retaliatory strikes when the others' missiles are already in the air. Why bother? Is it really better to destroy all life rather than just die and let the other guy live? What do you gain from the other side dying when you yourself will die anyway? (Conventional wars don't really make sense either, but they are a different situation anyway.)

It's not a comparison or anything really. But just like the nuclear thing, becoming as bad as the "evil" you're trying to defeat makes no sense. If surviving the Reapers literally calls for "any means necessary", I have to ask if we deserve to survive. Like if a bad guy has a gun to your head, and says that unless you kill these ten innocents in front of you, I'll shoot you. If you kill those ten innocents to save yourself, do you honestly deserve to live even if the bad guy kept his word?

Like Shepard says, he won't risk the soul of the species. Being inhumane in order to defend humanity just isn't my thing. We'll die eventually anyway. I'd rather not die tainted, having betrayed what I believe in.

As always, your mileage may vary. Some will call my viewpoint naive, and that's their prerogative. I could just as well call their viewpoint inhumane, and that'd be mine

Actually it makes plenty of sense, probably one of the only things that has stopped Nuclear wars from occuring is the fact that everyone knows that if you launch your going to be getting the same back so it's just not worth it, if people started believing like you do then the most evil person wins, end of story.

[Sniper11709]

mosor wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
You aren't necissarily giving it to Cerbers, you just aren't destroying it. Of-course this means that Cerberus is going to grab it first... and how would you stop them anyway?

Yeah, I know. But I wouldn't be too surprised if it will end up in the control of Cerberus.

Since the Normandy is a very powerful ship I'd say that it could be used to fight against T.I.M.

It is never said how other Cerberus ships can pass through the Omega 4 Relay but I'd guess that EDI sent a copy of the Reaper IFF to Cerberus HQ.

Why do you need a Reaper Indentify Friend Foe becon to enter the relay when all the collectos manning the base are dead? No one to send that signal to.

The IFF didn't transmit to the Collectors, It informed the Mass Relay that you were a authorized ship and to use the more effective algorithims that made it so you can jump inside the safe zone instead of right into a blackhole.

[Mindless_Prey]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Mindless_Prey wrote...

And call me crazy, but I predict that if you save the base, the Illusive Man would use it to turn himself into a Reaper, or  do something to that extent involving Reaper technology and become a problem fir you in ME3 

So, first of all, TIM could not turn himself into a reaper if he wanted to. He would need billions of humans even if he figured out how to make a reaper, and Cerberus simply does not have anywhere near the manpower to pull of an operation like that.

Second, why would TIM get in your way?

Bottom line: I don't trust him. In my view, he would defend humanity at any cost, and I mean at ANY cost. You bet he would use that technology to do so, and with an extremist organization with him at the helm, I think some really bad stuff might happen with the tech in his hands. Like maybe continuing what the Collectors were doing?

It's a stretch, and I admit you have a legit point, but I don't trust him as far as I can throw him.

[Dave of Canada]

mosor wrote...

SizzlinKola wrote...

If you keep the Collector base, The Illusive Man is deviously smiling while looking at it's hologram.

I personally think people read more into that smile than it actually is. If it was Anderson, would that smile be described as devious or sinister? Wouldn't the simplest explanation for that smile be that we just won a great victory and may possibly have the tools to defend ourselves from extinction?

But in the blown up ending, he's yelling at you and saying you're a moron because Cerberus would've used it for the Reapers and beyond. He's obviously got plans, he's dealing with the Reapers while they are a threat but when they are gone; Cerberus will use it for it's own purposes.

[atheelogos]

This guy gave some good reasons for keeping the base. www.youtube.com/watch
1:50 to about 3:50