3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Vabjekf]

I kept the base because i hope for some powerful ship upgrade to come out of it that lets me blow things up more efficiently and further enhances my ability to tell the council to go screw itself since i dont need them anymore.



Also, is the base what is generating the mass effect field that protects the relay?



Its not just the base then, its access to the center of the galaxy, think of what we could learn just being able to be there!

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

1. I didn't say it was as good as your reason, but it is still a legitimate reason.
2. Our emotions are what makes us human IMO, and I don't think that is a bad thing. Like Sheppard said, I won't sacrifice the soul of humanity to save it.

It's always nice when people concede to reason, especially while admitting to inferior emotional opinion.

Even if we appeal to emotion, the fear of galactic destruction should overshadow any fear of Cerberus.

[smudboy]

Vabjekf wrote...

I kept the base because i hope for some powerful ship upgrade to come out of it that lets me blow things up more efficiently and further enhances my ability to tell the council to go screw itself since i dont need them anymore.

Also, is the base what is generating the mass effect field that protects the relay?

Its not just the base then, its access to the center of the galaxy, think of what we could learn just being able to be there!

I, too was curious how that safe zone exists.  Although I'm not sure that's the case, since the Normandy just FTL's it out of there if the base is destroyed/neutron pulsed.  It's possible it's a natural area.

[Dave of Canada]

smudboy wrote...

And that perceived danger pales in comparison to the real danger of the galaxy the Reapers are.

Yes.  Once again, we are proven the main reason to do so is an emotional response, to "screw TIM."

I don't agree with Cerberus and the possible uses they will get out of the base, though. While it might be flipping off the Illusive Man in the process, the only reason I actually did consider blowing up the Reaper base was because how Cerberus - regardless of the Reaper threat - couldn't be trusted with it.

I'd rather risk being without the base than letting a terrorist organization have the best technology in the galaxy.

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

1. I didn't say it was as good as your reason, but it is still a legitimate reason.
2. Our emotions are what makes us human IMO, and I don't think that is a bad thing. Like Sheppard said, I won't sacrifice the soul of humanity to save it.

It's always nice when people concede to reason, especially while admitting to inferior emotional opinion.

Even if we appeal to emotion, the fear of galactic destruction should overshadow any fear of Cerberus.

I don't think emotion is inferior to logic. I'm Commander Sheppard, not a politician.

And I don't fear the Reapers, or Cerberus. I gues you could say it is "righteous anger."

[smudboy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

smudboy wrote...

And that perceived danger pales in comparison to the real danger of the galaxy the Reapers are.

Yes.  Once again, we are proven the main reason to do so is an emotional response, to "screw TIM."

I don't agree with Cerberus and the possible uses they will get out of the base, though. While it might be flipping off the Illusive Man in the process, the only reason I actually did consider blowing up the Reaper base was because how Cerberus - regardless of the Reaper threat - couldn't be trusted with it.

I'd rather risk being without the base than letting a terrorist organization have the best technology in the galaxy.

Don't you mean possible technology?  Your first paragaph says you don't agree with Cerberus and the possible uses they will (might) get out of the base.  We don't know what the base will provide, aside from knowledge on how to build a Human Reaper.  So what possible use would you not agree with Cerberus getting out of the base?

Your second paragraph says you'd rather risk being without the base than letting a terrorist organization have the best technology in the galaxy.  Best technology of what?  This is contradictory, as we don't know what we'll possibly gain from it, yet it's the best technology.  It's perhaps the only technology in the galaxy to build a Human Reaper, and that may be the best there is at that function.  (The logistics of doing such are impossible.)  The point is, this builds our enemy, whom we know next to nothing of.

And this terrorist organization, who has complete faith in Shepard, is the only one trying to stop the Big Bad.  Mass Effect has shown the effects in choices when saving or destroying something (the rachni queen, two crime lords, the council, etc.)  Now there is the potential of something bad happening from the base, and that is a clear risk.  The answer to that: you can always blow it up.

[Falcon509]

Peer pressure... And the Illusive Man is a crazy-eyed freak with a smoking problem. He'd probably just sell the station to fund his addiction. Lord knows he probably spend millions a year on cancer sticks.

If Bender taught me anything worthwhile though, drinking and smoking makes you look cool.

[Dave of Canada]

smudboy wrote...

Don't you mean possible technology?  Your first paragaph says you don't agree with Cerberus and the possible uses they will (might) get out of the base.  We don't know what the base will provide, aside from knowledge on how to build a Human Reaper.  So what possible use would you not agree with Cerberus getting out of the base?

Your second paragraph says you'd rather risk being without the base than letting a terrorist organization have the best technology in the galaxy.  Best technology of what?  This is contradictory, as we don't know what we'll possibly gain from it, yet it's the best technology.  It's perhaps the only technology in the galaxy to build a Human Reaper, and that may be the best there is at that function.  (The logistics of doing such are impossible.)  The point is, this builds our enemy, whom we know next to nothing of.

Throughout the novels, comic and the game we're always told that Collectors have the best technology ever and that even getting a piece of their tech is like winning the lottery. Now we've managed to take over their base of operations (the only known area where the Collectors reside) and that will most likely hold all the technology that is ridiculously advanced for the time or the schematics for it.

Managing to get the particle weaponry, seeker swarms, plagues that only target aliens and such on Cerberus' side can be very dangerous to the galaxy as a whole. You'd be happy for it when you're fighting the Reapers, yet would it be a good idea to leave that to people who will most likely try to destroy Omega / Citadel afterwards?

And this terrorist organization, who has complete faith in Shepard, is the only one trying to stop the Big Bad.

Because it's convenient. Both your goals meet up and there's nothing to seperate both groups from their motives. Although, after the Reapers have been stopped, I doubt their goals will remain similar and it will dissolve their relationship.

Cerberus doesn't want the base for only the Reapers, they want it for their own ends.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

I don't think emotion is inferior to logic. I'm Commander Sheppard, not a politician.

And I don't fear the Reapers, or Cerberus. I gues you could say it is "righteous anger."

About 500 years of philosophy of mind disagree.  Politics?

Well good for you, my sometimes irrational friend.

[Vabjekf]

smudboy wrote...

Vabjekf wrote...

I kept the base because i hope for some powerful ship upgrade to come out of it that lets me blow things up more efficiently and further enhances my ability to tell the council to go screw itself since i dont need them anymore.

Also, is the base what is generating the mass effect field that protects the relay?

Its not just the base then, its access to the center of the galaxy, think of what we could learn just being able to be there!

I, too was curious how that safe zone exists.  Although I'm not sure that's the case, since the Normandy just FTL's it out of there if the base is destroyed/neutron pulsed.  It's possible it's a natural area.

Yeah, but then the 'safe zone' is cluttered witha bunch of ships that were destroyed after going through the relay, by radiation that does not exist in the safe zone!. Like this, i think the ending is just the writers dropping the ball and not making sense=P

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I don't think emotion is inferior to logic. I'm Commander Sheppard, not a politician.

And I don't fear the Reapers, or Cerberus. I gues you could say it is "righteous anger."

About 500 years of philosophy of mind disagree.  Politics?

Well good for you, my sometimes irrational friend.

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I don't think emotion is inferior to logic. I'm Commander Sheppard, not a politician.

And I don't fear the Reapers, or Cerberus. I gues you could say it is "righteous anger."

About 500 years of philosophy of mind disagree.  Politics?

Well good for you, my sometimes irrational friend.

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

The content of reasoning is relative.

The ability to reason, at least simple ideas, is not.

[scotchtape622]

Exactly.

[TheSweetGirl]

smudboy wrote...

TheSweetGirl wrote...
But what is all that compared to that base?  That base literally turned many people into black goo. Hundreds and more lost their lives inside that base. It's not just a weapon...it is full of scientific horrors that in anyone's hands will despite intentions  will always prove ill. The Mass Relays Icould understand them keeping..biotics and weapons. They can't destroy all the Reaper technology (I should have worded that more clearly)

I don't know, what was Sovereign compared to the base?  Yet without EDI we wouldn't have gotten very far.

So what if it turned people to goo?  It may be a horror to you, but it could mean victory to the galaxy.

Yes, you should have worded that more clearly, although I now see it makes no difference.

But that base is different and giving it to the Illusive Man..Cerberus will abuse it. I don't trust that smile he gives when Shepard leaves and he looks at  by himself.

How is it different by giving it to Cerberus?  I don't trust TIM.  I don't trust the Rachni.  I don't trust the Geth.  I don't trust the Quarians masquerading war time as a trial who can't even re-catpure one of their own ships when they have their entire military next door, and their elite troops failed.

I don't care if Cerberus abuses it, or TIMs facial expression, whatever that means.  We have no knowledge of our enemy, and that's exactly what we need.  One issue at a time here.

Here's another question: What do you think T.I.M is going to do with it when the Reapers are destroyed? He isn't going to throw it away. Think about that for a minute.

I did.  That's irrelevant.  What's more important is your belief of the Reapers being destroyed.

I understand why people did keep the base but I believe Shepard and the others can defeat the Reapers. It will be much harder and difficult but Shepard and the other races can do it.

How?  When?  What method?  What means?  Cause if we don't, all your theories of what TIM's smirk means is useless.

Once again, the reason to blow up the base?  TIM.  Not to save the galaxy, not to learn about our enemy, just...TIM.

Well, EDI, the weapons, biotics are the lesser of evils.

You ever heard the saying, "One individual has a potential to ruin the world."?

T.I.M is a very powerful individual. We have seen this. Too much power can turn him into what the Reapers are: Dominating and using his own and other species to experiment with this BASE technology.

It may be all victorious when they defeat the Reapers but there will be big problems in the long run.


This is what I believe. Every action has a consequence. Keep the base or not.  Bad stuff will happen either way.

Every action has a consequence and I'm just saying that smile was a hint that it is not in good hnads and will never be in good hands.

Too much power for anyone to have.

Modifié par TheSweetGirl, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .

[smudboy]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Throughout the novels, comic and the game we're always told that Collectors have the best technology ever and that even getting a piece of their tech is like winning the lottery. Now we've managed to take over their base of operations (the only known area where the Collectors reside) and that will most likely hold all the technology that is ridiculously advanced for the time or the schematics for it.

This is a potentially excellent thing.  Though for all that technology, it's a shame they had no exterior sensors or defenses...

Managing to get the particle weaponry, seeker swarms, plagues that only target aliens and such on Cerberus' side can be very dangerous to the galaxy as a whole. You'd be happy for it when you're fighting the Reapers, yet would it be a good idea to leave that to people who will most likely try to destroy Omega / Citadel afterwards?

Well, they already have those three things.

You're forgetting that the Reapers haven't been stopped yet.

Because it's convenient. Both your goals meet up and there's nothing to seperate both groups from their motives. Although, after the Reapers have been stopped, I doubt their goals will remain similar and it will dissolve their relationship.

The same is said of every other faction.  The fact that Cerberus is helping to fight the war should be a pretty good indicator of why we need their help.

Cerberus doesn't want the base for only the Reapers, they want it for their own ends.

Good for them.  Let's worry about galactric destruction, and the greater of two evils, first.

Modifié par smudboy, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:41 .

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

What moral stand is that?

[smudboy]

TheSweetGirl wrote...
You ever heard the saying, "One individual has a potential to ruin the world."?

You ever hear "The Reapers are coming?"

T.I.M is a very powerful individual. We have seen this. Too much power can turn him into what the Reapers are: Dominating and using his own and other species to experiment with this BASE technology.

I'll take a power hungry human over an unknown fleet of billion year old AI who want to destroy everything.

It may be all victorious when they defeat the Reapers but there will be big problems in the long run.

Who says they will?  Who says they can?  Who says we can?

Keeping base?  Up the chances

This is what I believe. Every action has a consequence. Keep the base or not.  Bad stuff will happen either way.

Ah huh...right.  That makes perfect sense.

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

What moral stand is that?

The ends don't justify the means. Cerberus and I have similar goals, but because I see their methods as cruel, sick, and evil, I won't help them become more powerful.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

I honestly don't think it will make a world of difference in the third game, because if it did it would be unfair to people who made certain decisions. Based on this, I think either destroying or saving the base is a fair choice, although the paragon decision in the first game should be coupled with the paragon decision in the second game, and vice versa.



Based on a purely "In Shepard's shoes, knowing only what Shepard knows' perspective though, my first instinct is to save the base for future use. However, with more thought I think destroying it would be better, because there is the risk of indoctrination, misuse by Cerberus, and really, what is one collector base going to do against thousands of reapers?

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

What moral stand is that?

The ends don't justify the means. Cerberus and I have similar goals, but because I see their methods as cruel, sick, and evil, I won't help them become more powerful.

How is this an argument for destroying the base?

[FuturePasTimeCE]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

What moral stand is that?

The ends don't justify the means. Cerberus and I have similar goals, but because I see their methods as cruel, sick, and evil, I won't help them become more powerful.

they want you to destroy the base by pretending they want it (reverse psyche)...  would you destroy the matrix (base) just to defeat the robots easily (even when there's billions of lives at stake) or try and keep it extracting those who want out thus making it a bit more difficult to fight artificial intelligence?

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:59 .

[TheSweetGirl]

smudboy wrote...

TheSweetGirl wrote...
You ever heard the saying, "One individual has a potential to ruin the world."?

You ever hear "The Reapers are coming?"

T.I.M is a very powerful individual. We have seen this. Too much power can turn him into what the Reapers are: Dominating and using his own and other species to experiment with this BASE technology.

I'll take a power hungry human over an unknown fleet of billion year old AI who want to destroy everything.

It may be all victorious when they defeat the Reapers but there will be big problems in the long run.

Who says they will?  Who says they can?  Who says we can?

Keeping base?  Up the chances

This is what I believe. Every action has a consequence. Keep the base or not.  Bad stuff will happen either way.

Ah huh...right.  That makes perfect sense.

A power hungry human is just as bad as the Reapers. He will use, manipulate, and kill.

*shakes head* You just watch. Keeping that base will have dire consequences  like the people who destroyed it. You think it is the easy way out that it will be all celebration and parties but it won't

Trust me, keeping the base will be a burden maybe even more that destroying it.

But I have my opinion and it is mine not yours so go ahead and keep the base. Just saying...don't expect it to be as easy as you think it is.

Modifié par TheSweetGirl, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:03 .

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

What moral stand is that?

The ends don't justify the means. Cerberus and I have similar goals, but because I see their methods as cruel, sick, and evil, I won't help them become more powerful.

How is this an argument for destroying the base?

TIM all but admits that he wants to build his own Reaper. He would also get access to the Plague, Seeker Swarms (only Mordin has all the data for them), and more information on Indocterination. Those are things that I don't want them to have access to.

[smudboy]

TheSweetGirl wrote...
A power hungry human is just as bad as the Reapers. He will use, manipulate, and kill.

[Whatever42]

In WWII, we supported Stalin as our ally against Hitler. When Statlin was invading Eastern Europe, Churchill suggesting invading through Yugoslavia, to cut Stalin off from conquering the whole region. Roosevelt did the logical thing and nixed that idea. Hitler was the threat, Stalin was an ally.

In retrospect, it was a bad decision. Relations with the U.S.S.R. got pretty much as bad as they could be and we sentenced millions to oppression for decades. A paragon action there would have been far superior.

Giving TIM the ability to make Reapers and technology that he could use to conquer the galaxy might not be necessary and would certainly have long term consquences, very likely very dire consquences.

Since I seriously doubt that the Collectors have the technology to provide a military defeat of the Reapers and I equally doubt that the Reapers left a file lying around titled "Viruses and Reaper Security Holes", I would question the strategic value of the Collector base versus giving it to TIM.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:13 .