3478 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...
TIM all but admits that he wants to build his own Reaper. He would also get access to the Plague, Seeker Swarms (only Mordin has all the data for them), and more information on Indocterination. Those are things that I don't want them to have access to.

I think you need to listen to what TIM says again.

We don't know what information they'll get.  However, if any of that information is found, great.  We can learn about defenses and countermeasures on such things.

[Whatever42]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

A power hungry human is just as bad as the Reapers. He will use, manipulate, and kill.

*shakes head* You just watch. Keeping that base will have dire consequences  like the people who destroyed it. You think it is the easy way out that it will be all celebration and parties but it won't

Trust me, keeping the base will be a burden maybe even more that destroying it.

But I have my opinion and it is mine not yours so go ahead and keep the base. Just saying...don't expect it to be as easy as you think it is.

My renegade Shepard plans using Liara to find the location of TIM, kill him, and assume leadership over Cerberus. Then he'll use the Reapers to his own ends, such as ridding the universe of all those moron politicians who almost led the galaxy to destruction. He'll regret nothing!

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I took a moral stand, maybe it is irrational, but IMO, ration is all relative anyway.

What moral stand is that?

The ends don't justify the means. Cerberus and I have similar goals, but because I see their methods as cruel, sick, and evil, I won't help them become more powerful.

How is this an argument for destroying the base?

Dear God, I'm actually in complete agreement with smudboy here. 

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...
TIM all but admits that he wants to build his own Reaper. He would also get access to the Plague, Seeker Swarms (only Mordin has all the data for them), and more information on Indocterination. Those are things that I don't want them to have access to.

I think you need to listen to what TIM says again.

We don't know what information they'll get.  However, if any of that information is found, great.  We can learn about defenses and countermeasures on such things.

"We'll"? No Cerberus will. They have never, ever, been upfront with us.

And I did listen to what TIM says, I accused him of wanting to build his own Reaper, and he doesn't deny it. If he wasn't planning on building a Reaper, he would have denied it. That is human nature.

And imagine if that is what he wants. How many innocent lives will he sacrifice?

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...
And I did listen to what TIM says, I accused him of wanting to build his own Reaper, and he doesn't deny it. If he wasn't planning on building a Reaper, he would have denied it. That is human nature.

And imagine if that is what he wants. How many innocent lives will he sacrifice?

I'm going to need a youtube reference, thanks.

Sorry, you, and no one else, knows what human nature is.

I can imagine a whole bunch of illogical, impossible scenarios.  That seems to be what the Blowers are thinking a lot with.  With their imaginations and not their reason.  Which is completely nonsensical and ridiculous.

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

And I did listen to what TIM says, I accused him of wanting to build his own Reaper, and he doesn't deny it.

That sounds like bull**** to me. I'd like a source.

It would be illogical for TIM to build his own reaper for obvious reasons.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:29 .

[TheSweetGirl]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...
And I did listen to what TIM says, I accused him of wanting to build his own Reaper, and he doesn't deny it. If he wasn't planning on building a Reaper, he would have denied it. That is human nature.

And imagine if that is what he wants. How many innocent lives will he sacrifice?

I'm going to need a youtube reference, thanks.

Sorry, you, and no one else, knows what human nature is.

I can imagine a whole bunch of illogical, impossible scenarios.  That seems to be what the Blowers are thinking a lot with.  With their imaginations and not their reason.  Which is completely nonsensical and ridiculous.

Humans are illogical. We are not machines.

Since I destroyed the base, I don't like the fact that you call our reasons ridculous.

Modifié par TheSweetGirl, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:44 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

TheSweetGirl wrote...
Humans are illogical. We are not machines.

Since I destroyed the base, I don't like the fact that you call our reasons ridculous.

Humans have the capacity to be both logical and illogical. If* your "reasons" have very little actual reason supporting them, then there is nothing wrong with saying that they are (rationally) ridiculous.

*I don't mean to imply that your specific reasoning is ridiculous, but rather in a more general sense that applies to everyone.

And the decision to keep or destroy the base requires a rational Shepherd, not an illogical/emotional one. The universe needs a rational Shepherd.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:51 .

[scotchtape622]

At about 1:50



"You're completely ruthless, the next thing I'll know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper!"

"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers, at any cost, I've never hidden that from you!"



Also, psychologist have a pretty decent understanding of human nature. Everything I know about interrogation techniques (a subject that I know a pretty decent amount about) tells me I'm right.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Also, psychologist have a pretty decent understanding of human nature. Everything I know about interrogation techniques (a subject that I know a pretty decent amount about) tells me I'm right.

That's not an argument, much less a rational one. You're pulling rank here - why do we care how much you know about interrogation techniques when we're talking about how to beat the Reapers? 

What tells you that you're right?

"It's okay guys, interrogations are kinda my thang...so trust me..."

[TheSweetGirl]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

TheSweetGirl wrote...
Humans are illogical. We are not machines.

Since I destroyed the base, I don't like the fact that you call our reasons ridculous.

Humans have the capacity to be both logical and illogical. If* your "reasons" have very little actual reason supporting them, then there is nothing wrong with saying that they are (rationally) ridiculous.

*I don't mean to imply that your specific reasoning is ridiculous, but rather in a more general sense that applies to everyone.

And the decision to keep or destroy the base requires a rational Shepherd, not an illogical/emotional one. The universe needs a rational Shepherd.

Sorry, it was the way he wrote it.

I believe my reason was geniune and understanding.

And my Shepard was rational when she destroyed the base  

No one wants a crazy commander.

You see? He accused you of being illogical and you didn't even deny it!

He accused me of being illogical with that decision, not as a whole.

But as the person who replied to me, we can be both logical and illogical.

Heck, I could say he was illogical for keeping the base because Shepard wants to get revenge at any cost towards the Reapers.

But I'm not.

Modifié par TheSweetGirl, 28 juillet 2010 - 08:06 .

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...


At about 1:50

"You're completely ruthless, the next thing I'll know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper!"
"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers, at any cost, I've never hidden that from you!"

Also, psychologist have a pretty decent understanding of human nature. Everything I know about interrogation techniques (a subject that I know a pretty decent amount about) tells me I'm right.

Shepard wasn't asking a question.  Why would TIM provide an answer to a question that doesn't exist?

Psychologists who think they have a pretty decent understanding of "human nature" are lying to you.  Hell, even some psychologists will say that directly (that others are lying to you about human nature.)

You're a very confident person.  Confidence does not imply you understand "human nature", even decently.  I'm happy a feeling "tells you" you're "right."  But I feel I'm writing to an emotional nut job at this point, and it's more comedy than arguing on my end.

[scotchtape622]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Also, psychologist have a pretty decent understanding of human nature. Everything I know about interrogation techniques (a subject that I know a pretty decent amount about) tells me I'm right.

That's not an argument, much less a rational one. You're pulling rank here - why do we care how much you know about interrogation techniques when we're talking about how to beat the Reapers? 

What tells you that you're right?

"It's okay guys, interrogations are kinda my thang...so trust me..."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/app-h.htm

Sheppard essentially used the "Pride and Ego Down" approach, by insulting him (multiple times), doubting him, and questioning his morals. This caused TIM to become defensive, giving Sheppard the information that s/he needed.

[Whatever42]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

Humans are illogical. We are not machines.

Since I destroyed the base, I don't like the fact that you call our reasons ridculous.

Actually, humans are very logical. Even emotions are logical - to a point.

If I touch fire and it burns me I might feel fear when confronted by fire. That fear is logical. Fire is dangerous and can cause pain. Fear is a mental response present in all mammals and has been around millions of years. If it wasn't useful, it would not exist.

I then provide more abstract information, about how you can use fire to cook and warm your home. Is it still reasonable to fear fire? Absolutely! It bloody burned me.

However, human beings didn't evolve to process abstract information above our more base reactions. It often takes effort and self-persuasion. Even after you learn how to handle fire carefully, even after you learn all the benefits (not freezing to death in the winter), some people may let that fear override them. They may freeze to death rather than start a fire.

I agree that the saving the collector base is not as clear cut as many say. We have very little information to make an informed choice. Perhaps our more base instincts of fear and distrust of TIM are more useful than trying to make a reasoned decision on far too little information. In reality, we have no way of knowing how either alternative will work out. In retrospect, either decision can turn out disasterously. And there is no way to calculate any odds.

To say that emotion is a good a guide to decision making as logic is incorrect. However, I don't think its always inappropriate or useless.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 juillet 2010 - 08:09 .

[TheSweetGirl]

Shandepared wrote...

TheSweetGirl wrote...ou of being illogical and you didn't even deny it!

Heck, I could say he was illogical for keeping the base because Shepard wants to get revenge at any cost towards the Reapers.

No you couldn't. Shepard's reasoning for keeping the base is made pretty clear when he agrees with TIM and says, "In a fight for survival rules go out the window."

On the contrary, when he destroys the base all he offers is "I won't let fear compromise who I am." That is an emotional argument, not a reasoned one.

If I can't say that then no one can say that Shepard destroyed the base illogically.

They can both be logical and illogically reasons on both sides.

[CroGamer002]

We destroy it for big BOOM.

[Whatever42]

No you couldn't. Shepard's reasoning for keeping the base is made pretty clear when he agrees with TIM and says, "In a fight for survival rules go out the window."

On the contrary, when he destroys the base all he offers is "I won't let fear compromise who I am." That is an emotional argument, not a reasoned one.

Not necessarily. If you're an existentialist, existance has no meaning besides that which we bring to it. Existance in itself has no value.

If you bring value to your own existance through living a thoughtful, moral life then compromising those values would be to render your existance meaningless. You may survive but that survival would have no meaning.

Paragon Shepard is not a shallow, survival at any cost person. S/He a deep thinker. And perfectly logical.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 juillet 2010 - 08:19 .

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...


At about 1:50

"You're completely ruthless, the next thing I'll know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper!"
"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers, at any cost, I've never hidden that from you!"

Also, psychologist have a pretty decent understanding of human nature. Everything I know about interrogation techniques (a subject that I know a pretty decent amount about) tells me I'm right.

Shepard wasn't asking a question.  Why would TIM provide an answer to a question that doesn't exist?

Psychologists who think they have a pretty decent understanding of "human nature" are lying to you.  Hell, even some psychologists will say that directly (that others are lying to you about human nature.)

You're a very confident person.  Confidence does not imply you understand "human nature", even decently.  I'm happy a feeling "tells you" you're "right."  But I feel I'm writing to an emotional nut job at this point, and it's more comedy than arguing on my end.

You don't need to ask a question to the answers that you want. Most interrogation techniques do not involve asking questions directly.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 28 juillet 2010 - 08:21 .

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...


At about 1:50

"You're completely ruthless, the next thing I'll know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper!"
"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers, at any cost, I've never hidden that from you!"

Also, psychologist have a pretty decent understanding of human nature. Everything I know about interrogation techniques (a subject that I know a pretty decent amount about) tells me I'm right.

Shepard wasn't asking a question.  Why would TIM provide an answer to a question that doesn't exist?

Psychologists who think they have a pretty decent understanding of "human nature" are lying to you.  Hell, even some psychologists will say that directly (that others are lying to you about human nature.)

You're a very confident person.  Confidence does not imply you understand "human nature", even decently.  I'm happy a feeling "tells you" you're "right."  But I feel I'm writing to an emotional nut job at this point, and it's more comedy than arguing on my end.

You don't need to ask a question to the answers that you want. Most interrogation techniques do not involve asking questions directly.

So if he's not asking a question to get information, how is he interrogating someone over the radio?

[lovgreno]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I can imagine a whole bunch of illogical, impossible scenarios.  That seems to be what the Blowers are thinking a lot with.  With their imaginations and not their reason.  Which is completely nonsensical and ridiculous.

Humans are illogical. We are not machines.

Since I destroyed the base, I don't like the fact that you call our reasons ridculous.

Oh don't listen to Smudboy when he takes this game too seriously, he always ends up trying to insult anyone who disagrees with him. If he doesn't want to take you serious there is no reason for you to do the same for him.

Back to topic: Sure there could be a logical reason to not blow the base that makes all opposing arguments false but we will never know it as long as we are not all knowing about all possibilities. But we know almost nothing about the base and Shepard knows even less. Those who thinks this discussion can give them a exuse to say they are smarter and more logical than their opposers should contemplate the meaning of the word "hubris".

[scotchtape622]

Oh gosh...



Read the link that I posted. He is using the "Pride and Ego Down" approach.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Oh gosh...

Read the link that I posted. He is using the "Pride and Ego Down" approach.

And you have here what's called a House of Cards.  Or really, really small, tinted glasses.

[smudboy]

lovgreno wrote...
Oh don't listen to Smudboy when he takes this game too seriously, he always ends up trying to insult anyone who disagrees with him. If he doesn't want to take you serious there is no reason for you to do the same for him.

Back to topic: Sure there could be a logical reason to not blow the base that makes all opposing arguments false but we will never know it as long as we are not all knowing about all possibilities. But we know almost nothing about the base and Shepard knows even less. Those who thinks this discussion can give them a exuse to say they are smarter and more logical than their opposers should contemplate the meaning of the word "hubris".

Why not listen to me?  Have I been irrational at any time?

Where do I take the game too seriously?

Where do I end up insulting anyone who disagrees with me?

Okay.  So first you're accuring me of taking the game too seriously, then accusing me of not taking people seriously?  Which is it?

Back to topic: the hell?  What's this logical reason you're referring to?

I would say it's more logical to save the base for a number of reasons that I've already stated, whereas the Blowers simply don't trust TIM.