3478 réponses à ce sujet

[scotchtape622]

I don't understand what you are trying to say... Commander Sheppard used the "Pride and Ego Down" technique in order to get answers about what TIM was planning on doing with the Collector ship. This worked, confirming that TIM is considering building his own Reaper, as I showed you by the youtube video.



Your last two posts have not added anything to the discussion. The post before that was pure trolling. I think you've run out of things to say.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Not necessarily. If you're an existentialist, existance has no meaning besides that which we bring to it. Existance in itself has no value.

If you bring value to your own existance through living a thoughtful, moral life then compromising those values would be to render your existance meaningless. You may survive but that survival would have no meaning. 

If Shepherd keeps the base, then he brings forth the chance to save billions of lives. That has value, no matter which way you cut it. 

And honestly, your way of thinking is just selfish. If Shepherd has to compromise himself (either physically by getting killed in combat or compromise himself morally by giving away the base) to save billions of lives then the morally right thing to do is to hand over the base.

To sacrifice billions of lives to preserve your own moral values is NOT the right thing to do, morally or otherwise. What makes Shepherd a hero is the willingness to make personal sacrifices to save the day - this includes making morally ambiguous decisions, or decisions that are outright immoral. 

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Paragon Shepard is not a shallow, survival at any cost person. S/He a deep thinker. And perfectly logical.

Perhaps. But not from the way you slice it. 

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

I don't understand what you are trying to say... Commander Sheppard used the "Pride and Ego Down" technique in order to get answers about what TIM was planning on doing with the Collector ship. This worked, confirming that TIM is considering building his own Reaper, as I showed you by the youtube video.

Your last two posts have not added anything to the discussion. The post before that was pure trolling. I think you've run out of things to say.

I'm saying you're in a fantasy land blinded by your own bias.  How does a Pride and Ego Down technique or wtf you're talking about work in a non-interrogate environment/situation?

And you yourself have stated you have "confident feelings" what you know is "right."  Well sorry chief, but your emotions do not an argument make.  It makes me believe moreso that your reasoning is flawed.

But for the sake of comedy, let's look at wtf you're talking about:
"Pride-and-ego down is a US Army term that refers to techniques used by captors in interrogating prisoners to encourage cooperation, usually consisting of "attacking the source's sense of personal worth" and in an "attempt to redeem his pride, the source will usually involuntarily provide pertinent information in attempting to vindicate himself.":

And on simple observation...
1. Shepard is not interrogating TIM.  He's not an interrogator.  He's not asking a question.
2. TIM is not a prisoner.
3. Shepard is not attacking the sources sense of personal worth.  He's making a glib comment on how ruthless TIM is.
4. TIM is not attempting to redeem their pride.
5. The scene does not even call for a condition, nor environment, nor situation where there is any kind of interrogation going on.

In fact, TIM is nearly pleading with Shepard to save the base.  Why would Shepard suddenly start using some bizarre US Army interrogation technique with a guy over the radio over an argument about blowing up or saving a base?

[Spornicus]

You know why my Shepard destroyed the base?



He was paragon, and he wanted to.



That's the only reason I need.

[TheSweetGirl]

All right...look at what T.I.M is capable of.



Shepard has good reasons to distrust the man with this technology. It is not illogical to think that giving a man, whose methods are questionable and can be considered inhumane, the base can prove to be destructive (IMO since we don't know yet but I'm putting it up for the sake of it) in the next game. Yes, we can have countermeasures...yes more defenses but the fact that the base was used to create a human reaper should tell you that this is going to bite the people who kept the base, in the butt.



That's all I'm saying.

[smudboy]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

All right...look at what T.I.M is capable of.

Shepard has good reasons to distrust the man with this technology. It is not illogical to think that giving a man, whose methods are questionable and can be considered inhumane, the base can prove to be destructive (IMO since we don't know yet but I'm putting it up for the sake of it) in the next game. Yes, we can have countermeasures...yes more defenses but the fact that the base was used to create a human reaper should tell you that this is going to bite the people who kept the base, in the butt.

That's all I'm saying.

Good.

Now look at what the Reapers actually do.

[Giggles_Manically]

I played the American National Anthem and held up a little flag while it blew.

Fallout 3 style.

[Whatever42]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Not necessarily. If you're an existentialist, existance has no meaning besides that which we bring to it. Existance in itself has no value.

If you bring value to your own existance through living a thoughtful, moral life then compromising those values would be to render your existance meaningless. You may survive but that survival would have no meaning. 

If Shepherd keeps the base, then he brings forth the chance to save billions of lives. That has value, no matter which way you cut it. 

And honestly, your way of thinking is just selfish. If Shepherd has to compromise himself (either physically by getting killed in combat or compromise himself morally by giving away the base) to save billions of lives then the morally right thing to do is to hand over the base.

To sacrifice billions of lives to preserve your own moral values is NOT the right thing to do, morally or otherwise. What makes Shepherd a hero is the willingness to make personal sacrifices to save the day - this includes making morally ambiguous decisions, or decisions that are outright immoral. 

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Paragon Shepard is not a shallow, survival at any cost person. S/He a deep thinker. And perfectly logical.

Perhaps. But not from the way you slice it. 

Every one of the those people will die anyway. We are mortal and our existance is fleeting. It has no meaning, except what we bring to it.

Would you choose to live if it meant the ritual sacifice of your spouse and children? Would you save your spouse and children if it meant the ritual sacrifice of another family?

Or do you decide that your values transcend simply living another day? Or another week?

If humanity to survive had to become a fascist, oppressive force of evil in the galaxy, would decide that for humanity? Or would you decide that our survival is not worth such a fate?

Give me liberty or give me death. That cry helped found the United States. Our values were worth risking death over.

But that's really besides the point. There is no evidence that there is anything in the Collector base that will help us defeat the Reapers. We're quite certain TIM will be up to no good with it. If it comes down to a coin toss, staying true to your values is the easy choice.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:04 .

[scotchtape622]

I'm saying you're in a fantasy land blinded by your own bias.  How does a
Pride and Ego Down technique or wtf you're talking about work in a
non-interrogate environment/situation?

Thanks for the trolling

And you yourself have stated you have "confident feelings" what you know
is "right."  Well sorry chief, but your emotions do not an argument
make.  It makes me believe moreso that your reasoning is flawed.

I said that I trusted my gut, I never said anything that you are talking about.

But for the sake of comedy, let's look at wtf you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

1. Shepard is not interrogating TIM.  He's not an interrogator.  He's
not asking a question.

That is the point of the technique, you aren't supposed to ask a question.

2. TIM is not a prisoner.

Yes, but he is still dependant on Sheppard's descion, which may give him a feeling of desperation similar to being a prisioner.

3. Shepard is not attacking the sources sense of personal worth.  He's
making a glib comment on how ruthless TIM is.

During the entire conversation, Sheppard was questioning TIM's morals and judgment.

4. TIM is not attempting to redeem their pride.

Yes, but he certainly got angry and defensive.

5. The scene does not even call for a condition, nor environment, nor
situation where there is any kind of interrogation going on.

I don't even understand what you are saying here.

In fact, TIM is nearly pleading with
Shepard to save the base.  Why would Shepard suddenly start using some
bizarre US Army interrogation technique with a guy over the radio over an argument about
blowing up or saving a base?

There are two options here:

1. Sheppard consciously decided to use this interrogation technique to find out more information about TIM's plans.
2. Sheppard was pissed about how evil he thinks TIM is, and began insulting and accusing him.

Either way, Sheppard found out that TIM is considering building a Reaper, which has been my point the entire time, despite the fact that you try and ignore it.

[TheSweetGirl]

Shandepared wrote...

TheSweetGirl wrote...

All right...look at what T.I.M is capable of.

Shepard has good reasons to distrust the man with this technology. It is not illogical to think that giving a man, whose methods are questionable and can be considered inhumane...

Extinction is even more inhumane.

True

But who says without the base, the humans will be extinct or any race for that matter?

We will see in ME3.

[Giggles_Manically]

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.



Friedrich Nietzsche

[Whatever42]

Shandepared wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
 
Paragon Shepard is not a shallow, survival at any cost person. S/He a deep thinker. And perfectly logical.

If you are not willing to prevent extinction at any cost then you are not being rational.

Paragon Shepard is a naive, self-righteous idiot.

And Renegade Shepard is Nietzschen, where survival is the only purpose in life.

So lets say humanity could only survive by turning fascist, conquering the galaxy and offering up all the other species as tribute to the Reapers. Renegade Shepard would find this acceptable.

Saren was a renegade. He believed there was no way to defeat the Reapers so sacrificing most of organic life so a few might live as slaves was worth it. Hey, we escaped extinction!

Remember the Alamo! Dying in defense of freedom is a paragon act. We die to defend the meaning we've found in our lives.

[Giggles_Manically]

Shandepared wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I played the American National Anthem and held up a little flag while it blew.
Fallout 3 style.

I used the modified FEV and I'm damn proud of it.

May I ask why since without it:
Ghouls, Mutated Creatures die in the clean water
With their vault gone the Super Mutants will dwindle in die in the wastes.

JHE may make some nice speeches, but overall I just cant see the logic in working for el bonko in a box.

[Thesuperdevil]

Whether TIM possesses the knowledge to build a Reaper is irrelevant; it is simply logistically impossible.

Take note of how many humans the Collectors had to take: certainly enough to get the attention of the Council and Cerberus, but while the former was more concerned with politics (and willing to dismiss it as slaver/pirate attacks), the latter actually took action which is the important thing. Despite the substantial number of humans processed, the Reaper was hardly in a state more threatening to a squad of THREE soldiers. This means that more humans, very likely in the order of several million more, would be required to make a full-fledged Reaper, and even then, how can that Reaper be expected to obey Cerberus and perform TIM's bidding in the first place? Furthermore, how is an organization of 150 people going to kidnap MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT BEING NOTICED?

Not possible. Interesting, but not possible.

Modifié par Thesuperdevil, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:08 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Simply because you have the factory dosent mean you can output the final product.

Since the lack of raw material negates the ability to get the final product.



IE if you steal a GM plant, you still cant make new cars since you have no new raw goods coming in.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Every one of the those people will die anyway. We are mortal and our existance is fleeting. It has no meaning, except what we bring to it.

Are you serious? If these billions of people get exterminated by the Reapers because of the base, the Shepherd has just denied these billions of people the chance to find meaning in their lives.

What you propose is that Shepherd should deny this existential right to billions of people and let them die prematurely at the hands of the Reapers just so Shepherd can keep his moral values?

Again...are you serious?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Would you choose to live if it meant the ritual sacifice of your spouse and children? Would you save your spouse and children if it meant the ritual sacrifice of another family?

Your analogy is terrible - I'm not choosing to live at the expense of my family, I'm choosing to sacrifice myself to save billions of families.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
If humanity to survive had to become a fascist, oppressive force of evil in the galaxy, would decide that for humanity? Or would you decide that our survival is worth such a fate?

As long as we survive, there is a chance that we can avoid that future. Fight this human oppression that you speak of. He's freaking Commander Shepherd - if he can beat the Reapers, he can beat Cerberus after that. If the Reapers kill us all, then there is no chance for anything.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Give me liberty or give me death. That cry helped found the United States. Our values were worth risking death over.

Great rhetoric. Means absolutely nothing in this context - the founding of the United States and Shepherd's particular dilemma have nothing in common.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
But that's really besides the point. There is no evidence that there is anything in the Collector base that will help us defeat the Reapers. We're quite certain TIM will be up to no good with it. If it comes down to a coin toss, staying true to your values is the easy choice.

Well, at least the first two sentences in this quote are somewhat more rational. Believe it or not, I'm actually for destroying the base.

[smudboy]

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Thanks for the trolling
[/quote]
Dude I'm seriously not trolling.  I'm telling you you're blinded by your own interpretation of a scene, because of...military interrogation techniques?

[quote]
I said that I trusted my gut, I never said anything that you are talking about.
[/quote]
Which is a feeling.  Which is irrational, and not part of a debate.
[quote]
[quote]But for the sake of comedy, let's look at wtf you're talking about: [/quote]
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem
[/quote]
Did you actually READ THAT LINK?  Yeah, that's not an ad hominem chief.  I'm genuinely expressing confusion over your...opinion.

[quote]
[quote]1. Shepard is not interrogating TIM.  He's not an interrogator.  He's
not asking a question. [/quote]
That is the point of the technique, you aren't supposed to ask a question.
[/quote]
And the entire audience knows this?  The common observer has no flippin clue wtf you're talking about.  I'm quite sure Mr. Writer doesn't either, or if he did, wasn't intending this.
[quote]
[quote]2. TIM is not a prisoner. [/quote]
Yes, but he is still dependant on Sheppard's descion, which may give him a feeling of desperation similar to being a prisioner.
[/quote]
So?  You just said he's not a prisoner.  And that Shepard is not an interrogator.  ERGO, not an interrogation, ergo, not an interrogation technique.

[quote]
[quote]3. Shepard is not attacking the sources sense of personal worth.  He's
making a glib comment on how ruthless TIM is. [/quote]During the entire conversation, Sheppard was questioning TIM's morals and judgment.
[/quote]
Okay, so you admit he's not attacking TIM?  Good.

[quote]
[quote]4. TIM is not attempting to redeem their pride. [/quote]Yes, but he certainly got angry and defensive.
[/quote]
Are you sure?  Did he?  And if so, so what?  What does that prove?  Sheen's doing a good job of being the level headed mastermind.  Hell, even when he gets "angry" with Miranda he seems pretty cool.

[quote]
[quote]5. The scene does not even call for a condition, nor environment, nor
situation where there is any kind of interrogation going on.
[/quote]I don't even understand what you are saying here.
[/quote]
I'm saying it's not an interrogation.

Shepard is not interrogating TIM.

TIM is not a prisoner.

There is no "coaxing" of information coming here.  They're having a goddamned radio conversation.
[quote]
[quote] In fact, TIM is nearly pleading with
Shepard to save the base.  Why would Shepard suddenly start using some
bizarre US Army interrogation technique with a guy over the radio over an argument about
blowing up or saving a base?[/quote]
There are two options here:

1. Sheppard consciously decided to use this interrogation technique to find out more information about TIM's plans.
[/quote]
Shepard is not interrogating TIM.  They are talking to each other about saving/destroying the base.

[quote]
2. Sheppard was pissed about how evil he thinks TIM is, and began insulting and accusing him.
[/quote]
They are talking about destroying/keeping the base.  That's all.
[quote]
Either way, Sheppard found out that TIM is considering building a Reaper, which has been my point the entire time, despite the fact that you try and ignore it.
[/quote]
Where did Shepard find out that TIM is going to build a Reaper?  What game are you playing man?  Where does this happen?  The link you provided didn't show anything like that.

What am I ignoring?  You haven't shown ANY evidence that TIM is going to build a Reaper.  None. 

Coupled with the fact that the writer has to have some knowledge of wtf you're talking about, in a scene that isn't an interrogation, about roles where people are not playing as interrogator/prisoner.

You are making sh+t up.  You are seeing through rose colored "it must be an interrogation!" scene glasses.  You are wrong.  There is no evidence of this, the scene is not an interrogation, there is no coaxing of information going on here.

Shepard and TIM are talking about saving/destroying the base.

Modifié par smudboy, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:12 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Why are we thinking that bioware will write something rational in three?



I mean look at two, there are just so- <FALLS THROUGH A PLOTHOLE>

[LostJ]

Why would you use technology your enemy know everything about? It's not that hard to figure this out.

[Giggles_Manically]

Backwards enginering of German prototypes allowed the Americans to jump their jet technology forward greatly.

[Thesuperdevil]

LostJ wrote...

Why would you use technology your enemy know everything about? It's not that hard to figure this out.

Just about all advanced technology in Mass Effect is based on or mimics Reaper tech; ergo, the Reapers pretty much know about it anyways. Hell, all of our technology barely defeated one Reaper and at a pretty steep cost. The fact is that the technology that very likely lies in the Collector Base is simply better than ours and gives us a better chance against the Reapers. You have to remember that the Reapers could not have anticipated the capture of the Collector Base by organics.