3478 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

If you read Retribution, you wouldn't keep the base. Simple as that.

[Giggles_Manically]

How do we know that Shepard isint being indoctrinated?



Although that would be a lame lost/BS trope to do.

[Whatever42]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Every one of the those people will die anyway. We are mortal and our existance is fleeting. It has no meaning, except what we bring to it.

Are you serious? If these billions of people get exterminated by the Reapers because of the base, the Shepherd has just denied these billions of people the chance to find meaning in their lives.

What you propose is that Shepherd should deny this existential right to billions of people and let them die prematurely at the hands of the Reapers just so Shepherd can keep his moral values?

Again...are you serious?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Would you choose to live if it meant the ritual sacifice of your spouse and children? Would you save your spouse and children if it meant the ritual sacrifice of another family?

Your analogy is terrible - I'm not choosing to live at the expense of my family, I'm choosing to sacrifice myself to save billions of families.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
If humanity to survive had to become a fascist, oppressive force of evil in the galaxy, would decide that for humanity? Or would you decide that our survival is worth such a fate?

As long as we survive, there is a chance that we can avoid that future. Fight this human oppression that you speak of. He's freaking Commander Shepherd - if he can beat the Reapers, he can beat Cerberus after that. If the Reapers kill us all, then there is no chance for anything.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Give me liberty or give me death. That cry helped found the United States. Our values were worth risking death over.

Great rhetoric. Means absolutely nothing in this context - the founding of the United States and Shepherd's particular dilemma have nothing in common.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
But that's really besides the point. There is no evidence that there is anything in the Collector base that will help us defeat the Reapers. We're quite certain TIM will be up to no good with it. If it comes down to a coin toss, staying true to your values is the easy choice.

Well, at least the first two sentences in this quote are somewhat more rational. Believe it or not, I'm actually for destroying the base.

One life or a billion makes no difference. If you believe in an afterlife, we all go to a better place and this struggle is pointless anyway. If you don't then when you die, your entire universe is destroyed. It doesn't matter if a billion people die with you or you die alone. Numbers are meaningless.

What you're doing is placing value on the civilization more than the individual people. That its continued existance brings value and meaning to our lives. However, again, if that civilization turns out to be evil and oppressive, is it worth saving? Or is it worth risking to ensure that it remains worth saving?

We're not talking about suicide. We're talking about risking our lives to not compromise on what we believe it. And thats where the American Revolution comes into it. They risked their lives and civilization to defend their values.

[Whatever42]

Shandepared wrote...

When you are up against total extinction survival is all that matters. You'll have the luxury of feeling guilyt about what you had to do later, if you survive. Otherwise you'll perish and you're guilt a long with you and nobody will be around to appreciate the moral stand you made.

But here is the rub. We will go extinct. We will all one day die. One day, our civilization and race will be gone from the universe and no one will even remember it.

So, while we're here, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:25 .

[Thesuperdevil]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

When you are up against total extinction survival is all that matters. You'll have the luxury of feeling guilyt about what you had to do later, if you survive. Otherwise you'll perish and you're guilt a long with you and nobody will be around to appreciate the moral stand you made.

But here is the rub. We will go extinct. We will all one day die. One day, our civilization and race will be gone from the universe and no one will even remember it.

So, while we're here, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

And so we should retain and use the technology in the Collector Base to give us a BETTER CHANCE against the Reapers and to by extension live longer. This is about prioritzing your issues, and the threat of galactic extermination by millenia-old artificial intelligences FAR outstrips the threat vaguely posed by a power-hungry human.

If we survive the Reapers, we deal with TIM afterwards if we need to.

Modifié par Thesuperdevil, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:30 .

[scotchtape622]

[quote]Which is a feeling.  Which is irrational, and not part of a debate. [/quote]Feelings are not irrational, that has already been discussed in this thread.

[quote]Did you actually READ THAT LINK?  Yeah, that's not an ad hominem chief. 
I'm genuinely expressing confusion over your...opinion. [/quote]
Did you actually READ THAT LINK? It doesn't matter if it is genuine or not.
[quote] [/quote]

[quote] And the entire audience knows this?  The common observer has no flippin
clue wtf you're talking about.  I'm quite sure Mr. Writer doesn't
either, or if he did, wasn't intending this.[/quote]
Most of the audience, and proably Mr. Writer, doesn't know how to shoot a gun either, but it still happens all the time in the game.
[quote] So?  You just said he's not a prisoner.  And that Shepard is not an
interrogator.  ERGO, not an interrogation, ergo, not an interrogation
technique.[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia....i/Interrogation

You don't need to have a prisoner in order to interrogate someone.
[quote] Okay, so you admit he's not attacking TIM?  Good.[/quote]I'm not admitting that. Do you know what attacking means?

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/attack

to
direct
unfavorable
criticism
against;
criticize
severely;
argue
with
strongly

to
try
to
destroy,
esp.
with
verbal
abuse

to
blame
or
abuse
violently
or
bitterly

[quote] Are you sure?  Did he?  And if so, so what?  What does that prove? 
Sheen's doing a good job of being the level headed mastermind.  Hell,
even when he gets "angry" with Miranda he seems pretty cool.[/quote]
What the heck is that supposed to mean?

The entire point of the Ego Down technique is get the subject angry and defensive. TIM got angry and defensive.


Now, even if you are right, and Sheppard is not trying to get information out of TIM, there is option #2:
[quote] Sheppard was pissed about how evil he thinks TIM is[/quote]Well, if he is not trying to coax information, the logical conclusion from Sheppard's statements is that he was angry. This part of point #2 is correct.

[quote] and began insulting and accusing him.[/quote]This part is also true, an example being that he called TIM ruthless.

Now then, this clearly caused TIM to get angry and defensive. You admitted this by saying:

[quote] Hell, even when he gets "angry" with Miranda he seems pretty cool.[/quote]
Further evidence would include that his voice increased in volume, and he began to be emotional.

Now when this happened, TIM said this in response to Sheppard accusing him of wanting to build a Reaper.

[quote]"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers, at any cost, I've never
hidden that from you!" [/quote]

I would say that any logical person would be able to infer that TIM is considering building a Reaper.

[quote]Where did Shepard find out that TIM is going to build a Reaper? [/quote]

This statement is false. Sheppard never found out that TIM is going to build a Reaper, Sheppard found out that TIM is considering building a Reaper.

[quote] Coupled with the fact that the writer has to have some knowledge of wtf
you're talking about, in a scene that isn't an interrogation, about
roles where people are not playing as interrogator/prisoner.[/quote]Like I said, in option #2, the Writer wouldn't need to have any knowledge of what I am talking about.

My bringing up the Ego Down technique was not evidence that Sheppard was trying to use the technique, but instead that because he got angry and began to verbally attack TIM, he incidentally used it (like many people incidentally use ad hominem, or a straw man argument).

[quote]You are making sh+t up.  You are seeing throw rose colored "it must be
an interrogation!" scene glasses.  You are wrong.  There is no evidence
of this, the scene is not an interrogation, there is no coaxing of
information going on here. [/quote]I don't think you know what rose colored glasses are That would be looking at things at an overly optimistic and biased view. Infering from a clear attempt at foreshadowing by Bioware that TIM may build a Reaper is not looking at anything through rose colored glasses.

[Merlin 47]

Originally, blowing it up in my opinion was the "right" thing to do. And by "right" I mean "good". After seeing what that Collector Base was doing and was used for, I wanted no part of it. I honestly could not live with myself if I ever decided to bring the base back, no matter who it was for. It could have been the Alliance or the Council. I'd STILL blow it up.



But looking back on it now (after my eighth playthrough) Legion brings up a point that makes me think now. He mentioned how Sovereign offered the Geth the technology they sought, advancing them along the path the Reapers would have wanted, much like they were doing with all civilization in the galaxy.



When TIM wanted me to save the base, looking back on it, I'm reminded of this quote. There may be many paths to the same technology. However, this is one technological discovery I DON'T want! Like my Shepard says, I don't sacrifice needless lives.



And, I do believe in the strength of my allies. Mordin saved the cure (possible Krogan allies), I saved the Rachni Queen (pledged her assistance already) and I know that we'll overcome the Reapers without the Collector Base. And....after we're done....TIM might need to be brought down too....

[Whatever42]

Shandepared wrote...
Try and dress it up anyway you want it; you're deciding the fate of trillions of people so that you don't have to live with a heavy conscience.

Thats what paragons do, yes. When Roosevelt decided to go to war with Japan and **** Germany (and the U.S. did cause the war with Japan through blockade and sanction), he condemned hundreds-of-thousands to die.

When we fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo, even though it was doubtful we would gain anything from it, we were renegade.

That's the choice.

But again, Shepard didn't elect suicide. He didn't say "I'm going to press this button because galactic extinction is preferably to me having a bad hair day". He decided to destroy the base because even though it *might* slightly tilt the odds against them, it was better that our civilization remained true to its values (remember, its the alliances stated values, not just his) rather than sacrifice our souls so that we *might* gain something useful.

He chose to not firebomb Dresden. He chose to invade Yugoslavia, risking extending the war with Germany to cut off the Iron Curtain of the U.S.S.R.

[Giggles_Manically]

Shandepared wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

May I ask why since without it:
Ghouls, Mutated Creatures die in the clean water
With their vault gone the Super Mutants will dwindle in die in the wastes.

Why would ghouls and Super Mutants die from the clean water? Do you mean in the GAME world? The game is buggy. Giving beggars clean water kills them and can even kill YOU because of scripting bugs.

Anyway, my character's reasons were this: He's seen the wastes and he knows what's out there. If humanity is to gain a foothold it needs someplace clean that it can rebuild. The Super Mutants are running out of FEV, yes, but they aren't the only threat. There are mirelurks, yao guai, death claws, rad scorpions, and probably other horrors that he hasn't seen. Using the FEV will get rid of all of them. The loss of the mostly harmless wastelanders is unfortunate, as Eden said, but he's looking at the big picture.

Admittedly, he's also a bit of a psychopath by this point. His violent exile from the Vault, the murder of his father, the day to day life in the wastes, his experiences in the Pitt, his supressed guilt for the destruction of Megaton, and his misguided destruction of Vault 101 all left him scarred. The Capital Wasteland was so ugly that he didn't see anything worth saving.

He carried this further by betraying the Brotherhood of Steel and dropping missiles on the Citadel. When he infiltrated the airbase he went to great lengths to avoid killing any Enclave personnel. (that was fun, and challenging, to roleplay)

So anyway. Collector base. Big picture. Naive paragon players. Meta-gamers. Ect.

My personal wanderer just killed people. However the people he met were raiders/slavers so it didnt make him evil. Seems that as long as you kill the right hordes of people it all works out.

But seriously a study of human history makes me believe that we are nothing more than bald monkeys who love violence and have the delusion that we matter. So when TIM goes on and on about HUMAN POWER, history pokes me and I remeber what happens EVERY SINGLE TIME a group in our past gets power.

Here is a hint: Lots of people die, and they make a Ridley Scott film out of it.

[smudboy]

And the entire audience knows this?  The common observer has no flippin clue wtf you're talking about.  I'm quite sure Mr. Writer doesn't  either, or if he did, wasn't intending this.

Most of the audience, and proably Mr. Writer, doesn't know how to shoot a gun either, but it still happens all the time in the game.

No.  That's not it works.  Either the writer was literally showing us this US Interrogation technique, or he wasn't.

Prove to me the writer was, and I might even consider your self-imagined interrogation theory is even remotely ratoinal.  Cause you are literally making this sh+t up, and that's exactly what it is.

[Giggles_Manically]

Shand my friend human history is quite depresing.



I dont think we as a species have the ability to do anything intelligent. Humans are not the most inspiring group to study overall.

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

And the entire audience knows this?  The common observer has no flippin clue wtf you're talking about.  I'm quite sure Mr. Writer doesn't  either, or if he did, wasn't intending this.

Most of the audience, and proably Mr. Writer, doesn't know how to shoot a gun either, but it still happens all the time in the game.

No.  That's not it works.  Either the writer was literally showing us this US Interrogation technique, or he wasn't.

Prove to me the writer was, and I might even consider your self-imagined interrogation theory is even remotely ratoinal.  Cause you are literally making this sh+t up, and that's exactly what it is.

You are ignoring my post. I said:

Like I said, in option #2, the Writer wouldn't need to have any
knowledge of what I am talking about.

My bringing up the Ego Down
technique was not evidence that Sheppard was trying to use the
technique, but instead that because he got angry and began to verbally
attack TIM, he incidentally used it (like many people incidentally use
ad hominem, or a straw man argument).

I was simply saying that TIM's reaction to the insults was predictable and realistic. Whether or not Sheppard did it on purpose is irrelavent.

[CmdrKankrelat]

I'd say getting beyond the Stone Age counts as proof that humans as a species have the ability to do something intelligent.

[Whatever42]

Shandepared wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Thats what paragons do, yes.

I find that heinous. You raise Roosevelt, I raise George W. Bush.

When Shepard blows up the base he has no plan for the future, no alternative course of action now that he's dashed our best hope for gaining an advantage over our enemy, or at least mitigating our disadvantages! "Well find some other way."

It's a good thing the writers are on your side.

Anyway, you've already admitted that you're not being rational about this and as long as you admit that I have nothing to argue with about.

I never admitted I was not being rational about this. I am supremely rational. You simply refuse to accept the underlying philosophy. You are focused on immediate survival, which is perfectly natural. Our entire evolution screams for survival. Our every instinct demands it.

Meanwhile, philosophy is often hard to get your head around and often conflicts with our base instincts. Existentalism says life is without meaning. Your survival instincts thinks your cognative brain is nuts and will do everything possible to ignore it.

But perhaps paragon Shepard is religious, in which case the debate shifts quite a bit but he still blows the base.

In either case, he definately has a strong value system and moral centre.

Edit: yanked the bit about GWB because I really, really, really do not want to get into a debate about him.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 juillet 2010 - 10:11 .

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

And the entire audience knows this?  The common observer has no flippin clue wtf you're talking about.  I'm quite sure Mr. Writer doesn't  either, or if he did, wasn't intending this.

Most of the audience, and proably Mr. Writer, doesn't know how to shoot a gun either, but it still happens all the time in the game.

No.  That's not it works.  Either the writer was literally showing us this US Interrogation technique, or he wasn't.

Prove to me the writer was, and I might even consider your self-imagined interrogation theory is even remotely ratoinal.  Cause you are literally making this sh+t up, and that's exactly what it is.

You are ignoring my post. I said:

Like I said, in option #2, the Writer wouldn't need to have any
knowledge of what I am talking about.

My bringing up the Ego Down
technique was not evidence that Sheppard was trying to use the
technique, but instead that because he got angry and began to verbally
attack TIM, he incidentally used it (like many people incidentally use
ad hominem, or a straw man argument).

I was simply saying that TIM's reaction to the insults was predictable and realistic. Whether or not Sheppard did it on purpose is irrelavent.

I didn't see any insults.  So what are you really trying to say here?  TIM was pretty cool headed the entire time, aside from talking to Miranda, he seemed a bit aggressive.

[Giggles_Manically]

This is why I cant go with human dominance:



Group A gets an Idea or an invention. Dosent matter if its religous, political, scientific, racial or whatever else pops up.



Group A becomes arrogant and thinks itself better than other groups. So it goes out and slaughters,converts, enslaves, or destroys groups B.



Group A grows stronger and stronger until, group C comes along and does to Group A what it did to Group B.



This cycle goes on and on through recorded human history and dosent look like it will ever stop. The Collector Base I see as a catalyst to start this cycle that will push Humans into a very dark path. Maybe if TIM said "THIS will save us from the reapers!" I would do it.



However once he said "this will ensure human power now, and beyond" that was to much. I will play renegade and do harsh things, but the record of human history dosent make me blind to our inner demons. TIM is the living form of what is wrong in humanity, and I cant condone following that path. Fear, Power, and Hatred have left a stain that cant be removed from our species no matter how much time passes.



What I just said made be negative, but a indepth reading of history dosent paint a beautiful picture, only a stark warning sign to me.

[scotchtape622]

I didn't see any insults.  So what are you really trying to say here? 
TIM was pretty cool headed the entire time, aside from talking
to Miranda, he seemed a bit aggressive.

You think that ruthless isn't an insult? There were also other comments that Sheppard said.

And TIM clearly raised his voice in anger when Sheppard accused him of wanting to grow a Reaper.


And still, you are arguing on a minor issue when the real one is this:

TIM is considering building a Reaper. I do not want to give him the tech to do so.

[Thesuperdevil]

Thesuperdevil wrote...

Whether TIM possesses the knowledge to build a Reaper is irrelevant; it is simply logistically impossible.

Take note of how many humans the Collectors had to take: certainly enough to get the attention of the Council and Cerberus, but while the former was more concerned with politics (and willing to dismiss it as slaver/pirate attacks), the latter actually took action which is the important thing. Despite the substantial number of humans processed, the Reaper was hardly in a state more threatening to a squad of THREE soldiers. This means that more humans, very likely in the order of several million more, would be required to make a full-fledged Reaper, and even then, how can that Reaper be expected to obey Cerberus and perform TIM's bidding in the first place? Furthermore, how is an organization of 150 people going to kidnap MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT BEING NOTICED?

Not possible. Interesting, but not possible.