3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

The game wants us to think Earth is being targeted.

[Crespire]

I plan on destroying the Collector base:

1) Turians are no longer restricting dreadnought totals to previous totals.

2) The Systems Alliance 5th fleet was able to handle one Reaper. This was just the 5th fleet. (Heavy losses, yes)

3) Organic races are continuing to innovate (Thanix cannon, etc). There is nothing in the Collector base that would advance the technology that we didn't already salvage from Sovereign. Collector Particle Beam, Collector Assault Rifle. If you read the Codex, it states that so far, Cerberus has had no success replicating it. Shepard could perhaps hand the tech over to either the Systems Alliance, or the Council. This is a big reason I feel keeping the base wouldn't be worth the risk. Presumably, the base was used specifically for the task of building the Human Reaper (much like most labs are run, and given the fact that Harbinger, through the Collector General, is more or less the only Reaper presence there, makes me think my suspision is right.) A lot of people are confusing Collector for Reaper. Collectors are agents of the Reapers, empowered by their technology, but they are not Reapers. The key question is: what technology have the Collectors deployed that we do not already know about? We know about the nano-machines, their weapons, and even the Collector Armor. I doubt we will find information on how Indoctrination works, which would be an absolute key to defeating the Reapers. Other than the alloy which the Human reaper superstructure is made of, and perhaps the technology of turning organics into a putty, I don't see what other technology we'd discover. We already have the IFF system saved, and the Protheans were able to unlock Mass Relay technology.

4) The Quarians, provided they can resolve their situation with the Geth responsibly, would no longer be restricted to repairing their own ships, thus putting their collective mind to developing tech for the upcoming invasion. Otherwise, the Quarians will get their act together pretty quickly once they realize the Reapers are upon us.

5) The Rachni will be with us, and as we have known, they were fairly driven, though it was hinted that perhaps a Reaper soured their song. It could be a situation similar to the Geth, where there will be sects. At the very least, Shepard has enough pull to convince them to fight.

6) I fail to see keeping the base as a rallying cry for organics. TIM will simply keep the base in shadow from the rest of the galaxy. The council will continue to blissfully.

At the end of the day, with or without Collector technology, the organics of the universe only stand a chance if they stand collectively. We have already proven that organics are capable of taking out a Reaper, it's simply a matter of scaling it up. The Council will have to acknowledge Reapers if they start sweeping the outter systems, rumors from the Terminus Systems will perhaps be confirmed, and hopefully push them into action. Now that the Reapers have no back door into the heart of galactic civilization, they won't be able to cripple communications so quickly, as they did with the Protheans. I think people that keep the base give too much credit to the Reapers, and to you all I say: SHAME ON YOU.

[edit]
Just wanted to add to point #3, it's clear that against Collector technology, we are already pretty well placed (upgraded Normandy vs collector cruiser). Against Reaper technology, it's a matter of scaling up our destructive power (unlocking the Collector technology we're already aware of: the particle beam). Knowledge is power, but the kind of knowledge likely to be contained in the base isn't the kind of knowledge we need to face the Reaper threat.

Modifié par Crespire, 02 août 2010 - 01:13 .

[Theoristitis]

smudboy wrote...
Like saving the galaxy?

TIM doesn't care about the galaxy, per se, but about humanity. He'll save humanity at any cost, I can safely assume, and let the rest of the galaxy burn. And since he's clearly quite willing to let hundreds and thousands of humans die...well, how many more?
You're also assuming that the Collector Base will save the galaxy. How? We don't know what's in it, except some schematics we get in either choice. And some dead Collectors. And their handheld weapons. And the Blender, which I don't see being used for any result, good or bad, without sacrificing the population of Earth. Other than that, we don't KNOW anything that it has. If we assume it DOES have something of use, we're assuming that the Reapers don't need it (or they'd have it) and are willing to leave it to chance (they're machines, they are almost logically obliged to calculate this stuff, despite their arrogance) that someday, someone might take out the Collectors and take this tech.

Once again, to snub TIM.

Pretty much. Paragons can be 'bad' too, if this is their line of thought.

So you want to prove that humans are morons?

May I ask how you're getting this conclusion from that part of my post? And no, I don't. I don't agree with that reason. That is not MY reason for destroying the base, merely A reason.

Like every other path every species has already been on?  How do you know they want you to follow the "Baby Reaper Making Path"?  Were they expecting Sovereign to get killed?  Maybe.  How about integrating an IFF into your own ship to travel to an unknown part of space where their 50k year old slave race of Reaper maker drones kept their Reaper maker?

I don't know. I don't support this reason, either. Hence, why I believe that it's "Perhaps not a very good argument", as I said. I added it because there IS reasoning behind it that I don't agree with.
However, I'll defend it for the hell of it. You asked about the Baby Reaper Making Path. Well, considering that we'd be making a REAPER, they'd probably be very happy with that. Or the Reaper equivalent of "happy". TIM would say he could control it, but every player who's ever disagreed with TIM knows TIM can't control EVERYTHING. Unless TIM knew that the Cerberus team on Mnemosyne would be indoctrinated, he also can't control Reaper indoctrination. If they don't want us to follow that path, we're assuming they don't want us to make it easier for them, which is false given the war(s) that Sovereign has incited.
They most likely did not expect Sovereign's death. They most likely did not expect us to get to the Base and beat them. Since I'm not Bioware, I can't say for sure what they know and don't. I based this reason off of something Sovereign said.

So you want to keep the base then?

Nyar?  WTF are you saying here?  Reaper tech is Reaper tech.  Thanix cannons came from "raw" Reaper tech, just as much as EDI did.  I didn't know we could put qualities on an unknown technology, and then say it's unknowingly bad or some crap.

I was trying to stay objective. I destroyed the base in my first playthrough and kept it in my second. I kept it in my 2nd, not because I was going "Renegade" (I always try for a mix), but because I saw merit in keeping the base.

Perhaps "raw" was misleading. "Intact" was what I meant, and what I should have stuck with. My bad.

As far as "qualities" go...yes, "intact" is a pretty black-and-white quality. Either it's broken (like Sovereign, which is where the Thanix Cannon came from, where EDI came from, according to the game) or it's intact (like Dragon's Teeth, like Sovereign when Saren started messing around, like the Derelict Reaper, which can safely be considered "intact" as long as it is still working). It's a quantifiable quality, unless you're talking about how we could be sure if it's "intact" or "broken".

The outcomes of each scenario, and the pattern in them, are pretty clear here, I think.

[Theoristitis]

To add on to what Crespire said:



You're Commander Shepard. Your frigate defeated the Collector cruiser in a fair fight, whether you upgraded or not. You killed hundreds of Collectors, including Harbinger many times, and hundreds of husks and husk-upgrades with ease. You defeated a Larval Reaper with small-arms fire. You have small-scale and large-scale counters for the Seeker swarms.



What could *possibly* be in the Collector Base, other than the schematics Joker presents at the end no matter which decision you make, that is BETTER than what you have? If there IS something, why didn't they use it?

[smudboy]

Crespire wrote...

I plan on destroying the Collector base:

1) Turians are no longer restricting dreadnought totals to previous totals.

So?

2) The Systems Alliance 5th fleet was able to handle one Reaper. This was just the 5th fleet. (Heavy losses, yes)

And how do you know it wasn't the defeat of Sovereign's possession of Saren's body?  The base might tell us how that possession operation works

3) Organic races are continuing to innovate (Thanix cannon, etc). There is nothing in the Collector base that would advance the technology that we didn't already salvage from Sovereign. Collector Particle Beam, Collector Assault Rifle. If you read the Codex, it states that so far, Cerberus has had no success replicating it. Shepard could perhaps hand the tech over to either the Systems Alliance, or the Council. This is a big reason I feel keeping the base wouldn't be worth the risk. Presumably, the base was used specifically for the task of building the Human Reaper (much like most labs are run, and given the fact that Harbinger, through the Collector General, is more or less the only Reaper presence there, makes me think my suspision is right.) A lot of people are confusing Collector for Reaper. Collectors are agents of the Reapers, empowered by their technology, but they are not Reapers. The key question is: what technology have the Collectors deployed that we do not already know about? We know about the nano-machines, their weapons, and even the Collector Armor. I doubt we will find information on how Indoctrination works, which would be an absolute key to defeating the Reapers. Other than the alloy which the Human reaper superstructure is made of, and perhaps the technology of turning organics into a putty, I don't see what other technology we'd discover. We already have the IFF system saved, and the Protheans were able to unlock Mass Relay technology.

Thanix = repurposed Reaper technology
So because "Shepard could perhaps hand the tech over to either the Systems Alliance or the Council", it's not worth the risk?  What?
If we have a piece of technology that builds our enemy, we will pretty much have every available bit of knowledge that constructs said enemy.  That is to say, if Reapers are build with the function of indoctrination, we'd have knowledge of how that capacity is constructed.

4) The Quarians, provided they can resolve their situation with the Geth responsibly, would no longer be restricted to repairing their own ships, thus putting their collective mind to developing tech for the upcoming invasion. Otherwise, the Quarians will get their act together pretty quickly once they realize the Reapers are upon us.

If.  Regardless, nothing to do with the argument.

5) The Rachni will be with us, and as we have known, they were fairly driven, though it was hinted that perhaps a Reaper soured their song. It could be a situation similar to the Geth, where there will be sects. At the very least, Shepard has enough pull to convince them to fight.

If x2.  Regardless, nothing to do with the argument.

6) I fail to see keeping the base as a rallying cry for organics. TIM will simply keep the base in shadow from the rest of the galaxy. The council will continue to blissfully.

TIM does want help from other species.  TIM has no problems getting the Council to help out.

Shepard: "I'm still a Spectre.  Maybe I can get the Council to help us out."
TIM: "If you think you can convince them, by all means..."

Evidence is good.

At the end of the day, with or without Collector technology, the organics of the universe only stand a chance if they stand collectively. We have already proven that organics are capable of taking out a Reaper, it's simply a matter of scaling it up. The Council will have to acknowledge Reapers if they start sweeping the outter systems, rumors from the Terminus Systems will perhaps be confirmed, and hopefully push them into action. Now that the Reapers have no back door into the heart of galactic civilization, they won't be able to cripple communications so quickly, as they did with the Protheans. I think people that keep the base give too much credit to the Reapers, and to you all I say: SHAME ON YOU.

Oh you say the Council has to acknowledge the Reapers...hmm...I wonder how they'll do that...

[edit]
Just wanted to add to point #3, it's clear that against Collector technology, we are already pretty well placed (upgraded Normandy vs collector cruiser). Against Reaper technology, it's a matter of scaling up our destructive power (unlocking the Collector technology we're already aware of: the particle beam). Knowledge is power, but the kind of knowledge likely to be contained in the base isn't the kind of knowledge we need to face the Reaper threat.

So you're saying we need to "unlock" the Collector technology we already have?  Why can't we also unlock the Collector technology in the base?  Because you "think" the technology of building our enemy we're trying to stop won't have the knowledge we have to stop them?

Oh.  That makes sense.

[smudboy]

Theoristitis wrote...
TIM doesn't care about the galaxy, per se, but about humanity. He'll save humanity at any cost, I can safely assume, and let the rest of the galaxy burn. And since he's clearly quite willing to let hundreds and thousands of humans die...well, how many more?
You're also assuming that the Collector Base will save the galaxy. How? We don't know what's in it, except some schematics we get in either choice. And some dead Collectors. And their handheld weapons. And the Blender, which I don't see being used for any result, good or bad, without sacrificing the population of Earth. Other than that, we don't KNOW anything that it has. If we assume it DOES have something of use, we're assuming that the Reapers don't need it (or they'd have it) and are willing to leave it to chance (they're machines, they are almost logically obliged to calculate this stuff, despite their arrogance) that someday, someone might take out the Collectors and take this tech.

If stopping the Reapers saves humanity, then it also saves the galaxy.

Pretty much. Paragons can be 'bad' too, if this is their line of thought.

Ah, the truth comes out.  This is your only viable reason.

May I ask how you're getting this conclusion from that part of my post? And no, I don't. I don't agree with that reason. That is not MY reason for destroying the base, merely A reason.

'To win without sacrificing humanity's "humanity".' <-- WTF does that even mean?  What part of your humanity are you sacrificing here?

However, I'll defend it for the hell of it. You asked about the Baby Reaper Making Path. Well, considering that we'd be making a REAPER, they'd probably be very happy with that.

Why would we make a Reaper?  Better question: how?

Or the Reaper equivalent of "happy". TIM would say he could control it, but every player who's ever disagreed with TIM knows TIM can't control EVERYTHING. Unless TIM knew that the Cerberus team on Mnemosyne would be indoctrinated, he also can't control Reaper indoctrination. If they don't want us to follow that path, we're assuming they don't want us to make it easier for them, which is false given the war(s) that Sovereign has incited.

Again, I'm quite sure having a species learn the "path of Reaper baby making" wasn't part of their grand cycle of destruction plan.

They most likely did not expect Sovereign's death. They most likely did not expect us to get to the Base and beat them. Since I'm not Bioware, I can't say for sure what they know and don't. I based this reason off of something Sovereign said.

Right.  They didn't expect 1) Sovereign's death.  2) Getting to the base.

So why would you want to destroy it?

As far as "qualities" go...yes, "intact" is a pretty black-and-white quality. Either it's broken (like Sovereign, which is where the Thanix Cannon came from, where EDI came from, according to the game) or it's intact (like Dragon's Teeth, like Sovereign when Saren started messing around, like the Derelict Reaper, which can safely be considered "intact" as long as it is still working). It's a quantifiable quality, unless you're talking about how we could be sure if it's "intact" or "broken".

The outcomes of each scenario, and the pattern in them, are pretty clear here, I think.

Then, I would imagine intact technology would be much more useful, and valuable, than not?

[Crespire]

smudboy wrote...

Crespire wrote...

I plan on destroying the Collector base:

1) Turians are no longer restricting dreadnought totals to previous totals.

So?

2) The Systems Alliance 5th fleet was able to handle one Reaper. This was just the 5th fleet. (Heavy losses, yes)

And how do you know it wasn't the defeat of Sovereign's possession of Saren's body?  The base might tell us how that possession operation works

3) Organic races are continuing to innovate (Thanix cannon, etc). There is nothing in the Collector base that would advance the technology that we didn't already salvage from Sovereign. Collector Particle Beam, Collector Assault Rifle. If you read the Codex, it states that so far, Cerberus has had no success replicating it. Shepard could perhaps hand the tech over to either the Systems Alliance, or the Council. This is a big reason I feel keeping the base wouldn't be worth the risk. Presumably, the base was used specifically for the task of building the Human Reaper (much like most labs are run, and given the fact that Harbinger, through the Collector General, is more or less the only Reaper presence there, makes me think my suspision is right.) A lot of people are confusing Collector for Reaper. Collectors are agents of the Reapers, empowered by their technology, but they are not Reapers. The key question is: what technology have the Collectors deployed that we do not already know about? We know about the nano-machines, their weapons, and even the Collector Armor. I doubt we will find information on how Indoctrination works, which would be an absolute key to defeating the Reapers. Other than the alloy which the Human reaper superstructure is made of, and perhaps the technology of turning organics into a putty, I don't see what other technology we'd discover. We already have the IFF system saved, and the Protheans were able to unlock Mass Relay technology.

Thanix = repurposed Reaper technology
So because "Shepard could perhaps hand the tech over to either the Systems Alliance or the Council", it's not worth the risk?  What?
If we have a piece of technology that builds our enemy, we will pretty much have every available bit of knowledge that constructs said enemy.  That is to say, if Reapers are build with the function of indoctrination, we'd have knowledge of how that capacity is constructed.

4) The Quarians, provided they can resolve their situation with the Geth responsibly, would no longer be restricted to repairing their own ships, thus putting their collective mind to developing tech for the upcoming invasion. Otherwise, the Quarians will get their act together pretty quickly once they realize the Reapers are upon us.

If.  Regardless, nothing to do with the argument.

5) The Rachni will be with us, and as we have known, they were fairly driven, though it was hinted that perhaps a Reaper soured their song. It could be a situation similar to the Geth, where there will be sects. At the very least, Shepard has enough pull to convince them to fight.

If x2.  Regardless, nothing to do with the argument.

6) I fail to see keeping the base as a rallying cry for organics. TIM will simply keep the base in shadow from the rest of the galaxy. The council will continue to blissfully.

TIM does want help from other species.  TIM has no problems getting the Council to help out.

Shepard: "I'm still a Spectre.  Maybe I can get the Council to help us out."
TIM: "If you think you can convince them, by all means..."

Evidence is good.

At the end of the day, with or without Collector technology, the organics of the universe only stand a chance if they stand collectively. We have already proven that organics are capable of taking out a Reaper, it's simply a matter of scaling it up. The Council will have to acknowledge Reapers if they start sweeping the outter systems, rumors from the Terminus Systems will perhaps be confirmed, and hopefully push them into action. Now that the Reapers have no back door into the heart of galactic civilization, they won't be able to cripple communications so quickly, as they did with the Protheans. I think people that keep the base give too much credit to the Reapers, and to you all I say: SHAME ON YOU.

Oh you say the Council has to acknowledge the Reapers...hmm...I wonder how they'll do that...

[edit]
Just wanted to add to point #3, it's clear that against Collector technology, we are already pretty well placed (upgraded Normandy vs collector cruiser). Against Reaper technology, it's a matter of scaling up our destructive power (unlocking the Collector technology we're already aware of: the particle beam). Knowledge is power, but the kind of knowledge likely to be contained in the base isn't the kind of knowledge we need to face the Reaper threat.

So you're saying we need to "unlock" the Collector technology we already have?  Why can't we also unlock the Collector technology in the base?  Because you "think" the technology of building our enemy we're trying to stop won't have the knowledge we have to stop them?

Oh.  That makes sense.

I'm saying, what tech we have already gotten from the Collector/Reaper faction, we got from Soverign (a Reaper). Now let me lay this out for you real smooth:

We have seen Reaper technology (Soverign), and even replicated it (Thanix).
We have seen Collector Technology, and use it (particle beam), on top of the fact that we already stand well against Collectors with current tech.
So, then why take a risk on keeping the base intact for TIM to stroll through when most of what we know about Collector AND Reaper technology, we already have available to us? What then, could we possibly learn from a Reaper-making facility?

My points 4 and 5 are about the survival of the organic galaxy as a whole. People seem to think the Collector Base will contain some sort of deus ex machina, but we already know what we're up against. Leveraging the organic galaxy as a whole, we will stand a chance against the Reapers. The only technology we could stand to advance from is completely understanding Indoctrination and how to counter it, and I doubt we'll find that information in the Collector base.

It's important to remember that the Collectors were tools. You don't give the grunt all the details about an assignment, you tell him what to do, and he does it. He's a means to an end, not the whole damn command chain. I would imagine that the Reapers (given that the Collectors are low on mental capacity anyway) would just have the Collectors collecting goop. What advantage would there be in having all their secrets stored in a forward base? It doesn't make any military sense.

Modifié par Crespire, 02 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[Inverness Moon]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Well clearly you haven't thought too much, cause it doesn't work like that at all. All the examples you cite are examples of opposing forces with technological parity. Sure, the United States is advanced, but it's not that much more advanced than any other country/organization in the universe.

e.g. Contrary to what you say, we will never get a Thanix cannon as powerful as a Reaper gun on our ships. The mass effect drives that power the Reapers are just WAY more powerful than the drives that power our dreadnoughts.

Thus, the Reapers clearly enjoy an overwhelming technological dominance - they are that much more advanced than we are. An infinitely more relevant example would be the current day United States Air Force giving World War I Germany an F-16CJ jet fighter. Sure, the Germans would try to clone it - and let's say we give them 10 years to do so - but I bet my ass that the 2010 United States Air Force would absolutely destroy this hypothetical German Air Force.

This also illustrates that what we are researching from the Reapers may not necessarily be the best technology - for example, even if the Germans successfully cloned the F-16CJ, the USAF will just deploy the F-22 Raptor, which will massacre the F-16s - therefore the technological overmatch would be there and present regardless.

Firstly, you can't say with certainty that we'll never get a Thanix Cannon as powerful as a reaper's gun, because the collector base can apparently build a reaper. It should have the schematics, including those for the mass effect core of a reaper. With that information you can determine to what degree dreadnoughts can be upgraded and how much of a threat they will be to the reapers.

As for your second example, it is not analogous to the situation with the collector base at all. As I said before, the collector base can build a reaper, so it most likely has their schematics. You would not be giving WWII Germany a jet fighter, you would be giving them the blueprints to it along with (most likely) the blueprints to all the underlying technologies that go into making it, and to seal the deal, a factory designed to manufacture them. There is a clear difference.

As for that not being the best technology. I'm doubtful that the reapers, being as similar as the ME2 ending (and common sense) would lead us to believe, would have very different levels of capability.

Edit: And in response to Crespire, there is a big difference between reverse-engineering technology, which is what you're suggesting we limit ourselves too, and stealing the blueprints, which are most likely found in the collector base.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 02 août 2010 - 01:57 .

[smudboy]

Crespire wrote...
We have seen Reaper technology (Soverign), and even replicated it (Thanix).

So we should keep the base?

We have seen Collector Technology, and use it (particle beam), on top of the fact that we already stand well against Collectors with current tech.

Okay.

So, then why take a risk on keeping the base intact for TIM to stroll through when most of what we know about Collector AND Reaper technology, we already have available to us? What then, could we possibly learn from a Reaper-making facility?

1) What do we have already availaboe to us?
2) Who knows what we'll learn?
3) Did you know we're fighting the Reapers, and we've found a base that makes our enemy, that we have no idea how we stop?

My points 4 and 5 are about the survival of the organic galaxy as a whole. People seem to think the Collector Base will contain some sort of deus ex machina, but we already know what we're up against. Leveraging the organic galaxy as a whole, we will stand a chance against the Reapers.

The Collector base will at least contain technology on how to build a Reaper.  That's pretty pertinent info, considering, you know, we want to stop the Reapers.  Your imagination can just work out the other useful things we might find.

[Crespire]

Inverness Moon wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Well clearly you haven't thought too much, cause it doesn't work like that at all. All the examples you cite are examples of opposing forces with technological parity. Sure, the United States is advanced, but it's not that much more advanced than any other country/organization in the universe.

e.g. Contrary to what you say, we will never get a Thanix cannon as powerful as a Reaper gun on our ships. The mass effect drives that power the Reapers are just WAY more powerful than the drives that power our dreadnoughts.

Thus, the Reapers clearly enjoy an overwhelming technological dominance - they are that much more advanced than we are. An infinitely more relevant example would be the current day United States Air Force giving World War I Germany an F-16CJ jet fighter. Sure, the Germans would try to clone it - and let's say we give them 10 years to do so - but I bet my ass that the 2010 United States Air Force would absolutely destroy this hypothetical German Air Force.

This also illustrates that what we are researching from the Reapers may not necessarily be the best technology - for example, even if the Germans successfully cloned the F-16CJ, the USAF will just deploy the F-22 Raptor, which will massacre the F-16s - therefore the technological overmatch would be there and present regardless.

Firstly, you can't say with certainty that we'll never get a Thanix Cannon as powerful as a reaper's gun, because the collector base can apparently build a reaper. It should have the schematics, including those for the mass effect core of a reaper. With that information you can determine to what degree dreadnoughts can be upgraded and how much of a threat they will be to the reapers.

As for your second example, it is not analogous to the situation with the collector base at all. As I said before, the collector base can build a reaper, so it most likely has their schematics. You would not be giving WWII Germany a jet fighter, you would be giving them the blueprints to it along with (most likely) the blueprints to all the underlying technologies that go into making it, and to seal the deal, a factory designed to manufacture them. There is a clear difference.

As for that not being the best technology. I'm doubtful that the reapers, being as similar as the ME2 ending (and common sense) would lead us to believe, would have very different levels of capability.

You are positing that the all the Collectors are aware of the complete process of building and getting a reaper functional. As you stated, we already know that the Reapers have a fairly large eezo core to be able to do the things they do (land planet side), but is landing planetside really something we'll need to do to fight the reapers? presumably, we could just orbitally bombard them. The only link I could see is eezo core size relating to power output, which could power bigger guns.

Again, why would the Reapers have valuable information about themselves in a forward base? The schematics for the Human reaper are just that, they're schematics for the Human Reaper. They don't tell you where to hit the Sovereign-type Reapers. Besides, we get that information anyway. We know that through experience, and we sure as hell can do that again, don't you think?

Again, everyone seems to think there will be some silver bullet, or deus ex machina on the Collector base, but I feel that belief is mistaken.

smudboy wrote...

Crespire wrote...
We have seen
Reaper technology (Soverign), and even replicated it (Thanix).

So
we should keep the base?

We have seen Collector
Technology, and use it (particle beam), on top of the fact that we
already stand well against Collectors with current tech.

Okay.

So,
then why take a risk on keeping the base intact for TIM to stroll
through when most of what we know about Collector AND Reaper technology,
we already have available to us? What then, could we possibly learn
from a Reaper-making facility?

1) What do we have already
availaboe to us?
2) Who knows what we'll learn?
3) Did you know
we're fighting the Reapers, and we've found a base that makes our
enemy, that we have no idea how we stop?

My points
4 and 5 are about the survival of the organic galaxy as a whole. People
seem to think the Collector Base will contain some sort of deus ex
machina, but we already know what we're up against. Leveraging the
organic galaxy as a whole, we will stand a chance against the Reapers.

The Collector
base will at least contain technology on how to build a Reaper.  That's
pretty pertinent info, considering, you know, we want to stop the
Reapers.  Your imagination can just work out the other useful things we
might find.

No, we shouldn't keep the base because we've already seen the tech elsewhere.

1) Collector technology.
2) more collector technology? Stuff we already stand a good chance against?
3) It makes a human reaper. What else does the base do?  At best, we'd learn how to make a human-reaper. What does that get us? Structural weaknesses? All the ones we'll be fighting are the bug type. Behavioural insight? They're out to wipe us all out.

I'd like to see what you can pull out of the Collector base other than the fact that we'd gain insight on how to liquify organics and pump them into a super-structure, and maybe those cool floating platforms. See:

Theoristitis wrote...


What could *possibly* be in the
Collector Base, other than the schematics Joker presents at the end no
matter which decision you make, that is BETTER than what you have? If
there IS something, why didn't they use it?

Modifié par Crespire, 02 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[didymos1120]

smudboy wrote...
The Collector base will at least contain technology on how to build a Reaper.

That's not certain.  Or at least, the degree to which that's true is uncertain.  Certainly, the remains of the Reaper are in there, as well as the equipment, but the Collectors themselves were essentially glorified, quasi-autonomous remote manipulators.   It's fairly likely all the instructions are safely ensconced in Reaper storage devices which are in turn safely ensconced within the actual Reapers themselves, and simply parceled out on an as-needed basis.

If so, while it's certainly possible  to learn a fair amount from reverse-engineering the equipment and Reaper-remnants, it's highly doubtful you'd be able to figure out how to actually build a fully-functional Reaper.  And of course, it may be that attempts to reverse-engineer some of that stuff will flat out fail due to lacking the knowledge required to even begin to understand how it works, or even how to produce the materials. 

That said, you can't really reduce any of that uncertainty unless you leave the base intact.

[Crespire]

didymos1120 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
The Collector base will at least contain technology on how to build a Reaper.

That's not certain.  Or at least, the degree to which that's true is uncertain.  Certainly, the remains of the Reaper are in there, as well as the equipment, but the Collectors themselves were essentially glorified, quasi-autonomous remote manipulators.   It's fairly likely all the instructions are safely ensconced in Reaper storage devices which are in turn safely ensconced within the actual Reapers themselves, and simply parceled out on an as-needed basis.

If so, while it's certainly possible  to learn a fair amount from reverse-engineering the equipment and Reaper-remnants, it's highly doubtful you'd be able to figure out how to actually build a fully-functional Reaper.  And of course, it may be that attempts to reverse-engineer some of that stuff will flat out fail due to lacking the knowledge required to even begin to understand how it works, or even how to produce the materials. 

That said, you can't really reduce any of that uncertainty unless you leave the base intact.

At the end of the day, the only valuable knowledge that would contribute more to what we already know is how to build a human-reaper (if that, as you have cleverly put it). A human reaper under Cerberus' wing is the only certainty, and it's one I can not live with because it will strain intergalatic relations.

[Inverness Moon]

Crespire wrote...

You are positing that the all the Collectors are aware of the complete process of building and getting a reaper functional. As you stated, we already know that the Reapers have a fairly large eezo core to be able to do the things they do (land planet side), but is landing planetside really something we'll need to do to fight the reapers? presumably, we could just orbitally bombard them. The only link I could see is eezo core size relating to power output, which could power bigger guns.

Firstly, we won't know what the collectors know and don't know unless we keep the base. Secondly, are you suggesting that the reapers' mass effect cores have nothing to do with the strength of their shields? You know, those shields that shrugged off fire from both the citadel and alliance fleets without a scratch and allowed Sovereign to ram and destroy a turian ship without a scratch.

Crespire wrote...

Again, why would the Reapers have valuable information about themselves in a forward base? The schematics for the Human reaper are just that, they're schematics for the Human Reaper. They don't tell you where to hit the Sovereign-type Reapers. We know that through experience, and we sure as hell can do that again, don't you think?

Firstly, the reapers would store valuable information in that base if they believed no enemies could reach it, and that the information was necessary for their construction. You're also assuming the human reaper is significantly different from the other reapers. As for "Sovereign-type reapers," most people believe what was fought at the end of ME2 was the core and the shell, or the ship part of the reaper had yet to be created.

The only reason Sovereign was destroyed is because it took direct control of Saren's body and then was destroyed. Sovereign lost power immediately after that event, it had nothing to do with the incoming fire. So no, I don't think we can do that again.

And even if the base doesn't have useful details on the reapers, it should have useful information on collector technology that would save a lot of time on iffy attempts to reverse engineer what we have seen.

Crespire wrote...

Again, everyone seems to think there will be some silver bullet, or deus ex machina on the Collector base, but I feel that belief is mistaken.

Well we won't know if that is true or not if we blow up the base, will we?

Crespire wrote...

No, we shouldn't keep the base because we've already seen the tech elsewhere.

1) Collector technology.
2) more collector technology? Stuff we already stand a good chance against?
3) It makes a human reaper. What else does the base do?  At best, we'd learn how to make a human-reaper. What does that get us? Structural weaknesses? All the ones we'll be fighting are the bug type. Behavioural insight? They're out to wipe us all out.

I'd like to see what you can pull out of the Collector base other than the fact that we'd gain insight on how to liquify organics and pump them into a super-structure.

Again, I think you're displaying your lack of understanding about the situation.

Firstly, "seeing" technology doesn't mean we can reverse-engineer it. Most people rightly assume that the base has schematics, which could make reproducing the technology an order of magnitude less difficult and less time consuming. Time is important, because we don't know exactly how much we have until the reapers get here.

As for "stuff we already stand a good chance against," quite obviously you would stand an even better chance if you actually knew how the stuff worked and could make it yourself.

And for number 3, well if you blow up the base you will not know what else it does.

I think too many people just metagame or ignore the obvious when it comes to things like this.

[Crespire]

@Inverness Moon

Seeing technology doesn't mean can reverse-engineer, you're right. The collectors are nothing more than drones, being fed information. Reverse-engineering a reaper does not confirm what we already know: We can defeat them. The only secret I see worth the risk is Indoctrination, but even there, I feel the risk outweighs the reward. Like you said, because we can see it doesn't mean we know how to use it.

I'd be interested in knowing how I'm meta-gaming or "ignoring the
obvious". I don't really see the advantage in keeping the base, unless you want to build a human-reaper. It seems pretty obvious to me that our technology is good enough.

Modifié par Crespire, 02 août 2010 - 02:26 .

[PWENER]

You people are just making stuff up.



So you saw a bit of the collector base, only a little bit. THE BASE WAS HUGE!!!



You don't know what's in it, so stop speculating. I kept the base for my transfer save, and nothing you say will convince me to change my mind, because thats what your doing, trying to convince people without evidence.

[smudboy]

[quote]Crespire wrote...
No, we shouldn't keep the base because we've already seen the tech elsewhere.

1) Collector technology.
[/quote]
We've seen technology that can build a Reaper before?

[quote]
2) more collector technology? Stuff we already stand a good chance against?
[/quote]
What are you talking about? We're up against the Reapers here.  The Collectors are gone.

[quote]
3) It makes a human reaper. What else does the base do?  At best, we'd learn how to make a human-reaper. What does that get us? Structural weaknesses? All the ones we'll be fighting are the bug type. Behavioural insight? They're out to wipe us all out.
[/quote]
That gives you all the secrets it takes to make a human Reaper?  Who are our enemy?  Every secret about their structure, electronics, organic components, nanotechnology, computers, etc.?  You don't think this is important?

Reapers get placed into Reaper "ships", as it were.  Or, just keep being built upon until they become a ship, or somesuch.  Unless the Collector Base is something completely different, and Harbinger was one big red herring.

I know they're out to wiep us all out.  That's why we take every advantage we can get.  Like saving the base.
[quote]
I'd like to see what you can pull out of the Collector base other than the fact that we'd gain insight on how to liquify organics and pump them into a super-structure, and maybe those cool floating platforms. See:
[/quote]
Wow.  Maybe you could use your imagination just a weeeeeee bit more.

[quote]Theoristitis wrote...
What could *possibly* be in the
Collector Base, other than the schematics Joker presents at the end no
matter which decision you make, that is BETTER than what you have? If
there IS something, why didn't they use it?[/quote]
[/quote]
I'm sorry, 4 full color pictures of a Reaper aren't schematics.  Those are called jpgs.

I think it's safe to say, to have a working Toyota Car Factory, is a little bit more valuable, than having 4 pictures of a Toyota.  Especially when your enemy are the Evil Sentient Toyotas and we need to stop them before all life in the galaxy goes kaboom.

If there is something, why didn't they use it?  Use what?  What are you referring to?  See, we don't know what's in the base.  That's a pretty big mystery to solve, and blowing it up just eliminates any secrets it might hold.  The base was barely protected: probably because they weren't expecting anyone.  They've been there for at least 50k years.

[Crespire]

PWENER wrote...

You people are just making stuff up.

So you saw a bit of the collector base, only a little bit. THE BASE WAS HUGE!!!

You don't know what's in it, so stop speculating. I kept the base for my transfer save, and nothing you say will convince me to change my mind, because thats what your doing, trying to convince people without evidence.

Someone on the internet is wrong, and I have to fix it.


@smudboy
You fail to recognize we went into a Collector base, not a Reaper base.

Modifié par Crespire, 02 août 2010 - 02:33 .

[Theoristitis]

smudboy wrote...
If stopping the Reapers saves humanity, then it also saves the galaxy.

Yes, it does.

I can't think of a decision in which Paragon vs. Renegade is a question of which decision will work and which won't. Paragon is the way to get it done following a certain code. Renegade is the way to get it done following a different code. In decisions involving lives, more people die in Renegade, but Shepard's job is much easier. I don't know how ME3 will play out with regards to this.

Therefore, destroying the base won't mean the Reapers win in ME3, unless Bioware decides it does, which they haven't yet.

Ah, the truth comes out.  This is your only viable reason.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the truth comes out". It's not ~my~ reason. I thought I stated which reason I personally agree with.

'To win without sacrificing humanity's "humanity".' <-- WTF does that even mean?  What part of your humanity are you sacrificing here?

It's by no means a direct quote, but a Shepard that destroys the base will say something to that effect. It's a question of Paragon vs. Renegade delivered by a Paragon Shepard. I take it you haven't played Paragon?

Why would we make a Reaper?  Better question: how?

For what other purpose would the Blender be useful? If we WOULDN'T make a Reaper, then what use is the knowledge? The Collector Base, for all it's glorified self, is AS FAR AS WE KNOW little more than a breeding facility for a Reaper. In which case, if we're not making a Reaper, it's not useful, except for information, which Shepard gets in either outcome.
And the question is not why we would, it's why TIM would. Because if the base survives, he takes control of it.

Again, I'm quite sure having a species learn the "path of Reaper baby making" wasn't part of their grand cycle of destruction plan.

I agree with this. I'm not sure why this particular point is being debated. I apologize if you took the impression from one of my previous posts that I disagreed. However, I don't see how this knowledge would be useful except to make a Reaper, which would only be helping them.

Right.  They didn't expect 1) Sovereign's death.  2) Getting to the base.

So why would you want to destroy it?

What you're saying here is that, because they didn't expect either setback, why would I want to destroy it?
Because if there was something of use in that base, the Collectors would have used it against us. Because I believe that the galaxy's current tech is superior to that of the Collector's (after all, we beat them, in space and on land). If it's not superior, then it's equal.

Then, I would imagine intact technology would be much more useful, and valuable, than not?

Correct me if I'm wrong. What you're saying is that intact Reaper technology is more useful, and valuable, than broken Reaper technology.

Intact technology -- Sovereign: I don't think I need to tell you what he did. Dragon's Teeth: indoctrinate everybody nearby, make them synthetic slaves. Derelict Reaper: indoctrinate everybody even though he's dead.

Broken technology -- Sovereign's remains: from which we engineered EDI and the Thanix Cannon.

And you want the Intact technology?

Is it more valuable? Depending on what you find, maybe. It's worth remembering, though, that if it's more powerful than the tech you already have, that means almost by Default that you CAN'T control it with your tech (otherwise YOUR tech would be the more powerful). And if you can't control it, then it'll control you, because that's what the Reapers do.

[smudboy]

didymos1120 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
The Collector base will at least contain technology on how to build a Reaper.

That's not certain.  Or at least, the degree to which that's true is uncertain.  Certainly, the remains of the Reaper are in there, as well as the equipment, but the Collectors themselves were essentially glorified, quasi-autonomous remote manipulators.   It's fairly likely all the instructions are safely ensconced in Reaper storage devices which are in turn safely ensconced within the actual Reapers themselves, and simply parceled out on an as-needed basis.

If so, while it's certainly possible  to learn a fair amount from reverse-engineering the equipment and Reaper-remnants, it's highly doubtful you'd be able to figure out how to actually build a fully-functional Reaper.  And of course, it may be that attempts to reverse-engineer some of that stuff will flat out fail due to lacking the knowledge required to even begin to understand how it works, or even how to produce the materials. 

That said, you can't really reduce any of that uncertainty unless you leave the base intact.

The remains of a Reaper?  The thing wasn't even "born" yet.  Why would we even want to build a Reaper?

Oh, so we didn't fight a Reaper as the last boss then?

How did it get there?

Who built it?

What game did you play again?

[Sajuro]

smudboy wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
The Collector base will at least contain technology on how to build a Reaper.

That's not certain.  Or at least, the degree to which that's true is uncertain.  Certainly, the remains of the Reaper are in there, as well as the equipment, but the Collectors themselves were essentially glorified, quasi-autonomous remote manipulators.   It's fairly likely all the instructions are safely ensconced in Reaper storage devices which are in turn safely ensconced within the actual Reapers themselves, and simply parceled out on an as-needed basis.

If so, while it's certainly possible  to learn a fair amount from reverse-engineering the equipment and Reaper-remnants, it's highly doubtful you'd be able to figure out how to actually build a fully-functional Reaper.  And of course, it may be that attempts to reverse-engineer some of that stuff will flat out fail due to lacking the knowledge required to even begin to understand how it works, or even how to produce the materials. 

That said, you can't really reduce any of that uncertainty unless you leave the base intact.

The remains of a Reaper?  The thing wasn't even "born" yet.  Why would we even want to build a Reaper?

Oh, so we didn't fight a Reaper as the last boss then?

How did it get there?

Who built it?

What game did you play again?

Ever considered that how to build a Reaper would have probably been imprinted on the Collector's minds? you know the ones you destroyed.

[smudboy]

Theoristitis wrote...
Yes, it does.

I can't think of a decision in which Paragon vs. Renegade is a question of which decision will work and which won't. Paragon is the way to get it done following a certain code. Renegade is the way to get it done following a different code. In decisions involving lives, more people die in Renegade, but Shepard's job is much easier. I don't know how ME3 will play out with regards to this.

Therefore, destroying the base won't mean the Reapers win in ME3, unless Bioware decides it does, which they haven't yet.

Okay so you agree that TIM wants to protect humanity, and that involves stopping the Reapers...

So what's the problem here?

This isn't about what ME3 will do, it's about having reasons to save the base.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the truth comes out". It's not ~my~ reason. I thought I stated which reason I personally agree with.

Because "snubbing TIM" is the only reason I've found to be viable from people who blow up the base.

It's by no means a direct quote, but a Shepard that destroys the base will say something to that effect. It's a question of Paragon vs. Renegade delivered by a Paragon Shepard. I take it you haven't played Paragon?

This is a comment made by Shepard after the fact.  I'm asking you why you want to blow up the base.

For what other purpose would the Blender be useful? If we WOULDN'T make a Reaper, then what use is the knowledge? The Collector Base, for all it's glorified self, is AS FAR AS WE KNOW little more than a breeding facility for a Reaper. In which case, if we're not making a Reaper, it's not useful, except for information, which Shepard gets in either outcome.
And the question is not why we would, it's why TIM would. Because if the base survives, he takes control of it.

The technology builds Reapers.  We don't want to build our own Reaper: we know that will be logistically impossible.  We want to study the technology that builds Reapers, so we can learn about our enemy.

I agree with this. I'm not sure why this particular point is being debated. I apologize if you took the impression from one of my previous posts that I disagreed. However, I don't see how this knowledge would be useful except to make a Reaper, which would only be helping them.

Dude, if your goal is to break your enemies wall?  But you have no idea how your enemy builds that wall for you to find a weakness?  And then you find a factory that builds your enemys walls?  And in it are recipes for making said walls?

Well?

What you're saying here is that, because they didn't expect either setback, why would I want to destroy it?
Because if there was something of use in that base, the Collectors would have used it against us. Because I believe that the galaxy's current tech is superior to that of the Collector's (after all, we beat them, in space and on land). If it's not superior, then it's equal.

You are assuming some direct military application, like a weapon or defense.

If the galaxy's current tech was superior, no one would trade with the Collectors, since their technology would already be known.

We don't know exactly what we'll find in the base.  We do know we'll find technology and data on how to build Reapers, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong. What you're saying is that intact Reaper technology is more useful, and valuable, than broken Reaper technology.

Intact technology -- Sovereign: I don't think I need to tell you what he did. Dragon's Teeth: indoctrinate everybody nearby, make them synthetic slaves. Derelict Reaper: indoctrinate everybody even though he's dead.

Broken technology -- Sovereign's remains: from which we engineered EDI and the Thanix Cannon.

And you want the Intact technology?

Of course.  Why wouldn't you?

Is it more valuable? Depending on what you find, maybe. It's worth remembering, though, that if it's more powerful than the tech you already have, that means almost by Default that you CAN'T control it with your tech (otherwise YOUR tech would be the more powerful). And if you can't control it, then it'll control you, because that's what the Reapers do.

...huh?

If TIM is correct, then the Collector Base would be like discovering the ME core on Mars.

I have no idea where you're getting this "our tech controlling Reaper tech" or some rubbish.  That's like saying the ME core on Mars would've indoctrinated us or something, or was too powerful it'd kill us.  Seriously, what are you talking about?

[smudboy]

Sajuro wrote...
Ever considered that how to build a Reaper would have probably been imprinted on the Collector's minds? you know the ones you destroyed.

Nope.

They were mindless drones.

[smudboy]

Crespire wrote...

PWENER wrote...

You people are just making stuff up.

So you saw a bit of the collector base, only a little bit. THE BASE WAS HUGE!!!

You don't know what's in it, so stop speculating. I kept the base for my transfer save, and nothing you say will convince me to change my mind, because thats what your doing, trying to convince people without evidence.

Someone on the internet is wrong, and I have to fix it.


@smudboy
You fail to recognize we went into a Collector base, not a Reaper base.

And have you forgotten that the Collectors were modified to be slaves to the Reapers?  And every piece of technology they have is from the Reapers?  And that their base builds Reapers?

[Theoristitis]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Wow.  Maybe you could use your imagination just a weeeeeee bit more.
[/quote]

Smud, I don't know about you, but I was trying to stick to facts. To what Shepard knows. If we bring imagination in, I could simply say that the "beings of light", which that eccentric Volus billionaire claims to be digging for (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Klencory) will render the Collector Base entirely unnecessary.
When I made the decision to destroy the base, I based it on what I knew, on FACTS, not imagination.

[/quote]
I'm sorry, 4 full color pictures of a Reaper aren't schematics.  Those are called jpgs.

I think it's safe to say, to have a working Toyota Car Factory, is a little bit more valuable, than having 4 pictures of a Toyota.  Especially when your enemy are the Evil Sentient Toyotas and we need to stop them before all life in the galaxy goes kaboom.

If there is something, why didn't they use it?  Use what?  What are you referring to?  See, we don't know what's in the base.  That's a pretty big mystery to solve, and blowing it up just eliminates any secrets it might hold.  The base was barely protected: probably because they weren't expecting anyone.  They've been there for at least 50k years.
[/quote]

Yes, they weren't much. I'm curious - where do you think Joker got those from? Off the extranet?
Or maybe...EDI downloaded them from the base? If there was ANYTHING else, why didn't she take those too? No memory capacity? Or was there nothing else to take?
It follows logically that electronically, there was nothing else to take. Was there anything physical to take that we didn't know about? I can't answer that, and neither can you. We'll know in ME3.

What was I referring to? I was using my imagination, like you suggested. ANY weapons we might find in that base, apart from those the Collectors were holding, are imagination at this point in time. ANYTHING we might find in that base is imagination. This entire argument, until ME3, is a big game of WHAT IF.

There's only one bit of tech, really, that we KNOW is in there. I'm talking straight-up facts that Shepard is aware of. The Blender. And we know what that does. People who keep the base are fine with its existence. People who destroy it are not.

[Crespire]

@smudboy



So their base builds Reapers. Intel contracts manufacturing out to companies in Taiwan, do those Taiwanese companies make microprocessors that perform as well as Intel's?



Because the Collectors are tasked with making a Reaper, does not necessarily mean they know how all the pieces fit together, let alone have all the plans to make a Reaper so readily accessible to us.



Seeing as how Collectors have very little mental capacity (see Indoctrination and the huge amount of tech inside them), it was likely that the schematics were imprinted into their cybernetics or minds. You destroyed that when the organic pulse went off.



If you can speculate to your advantage, then I will as well.