3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Throw_this_away]

When I chose to destroy the base in half my games I did it for a few reasons:



1. The collector/reaper tech of note observed in the base of was the blender. I didn't much want that, and I was willing to take the tech loss for moralistic reasons. Any weapons systems I observed... they used on me, and I basically owned them. I did fine with my own research thank you very much.



2. Legion: I bought into the geth thinking about finding your own way with tech.



3. TIM: My paraShep loves screwing him. Miranda jumping on board is just the second middle finger.



But I still save the base in 50% of the games so that I can get the most out of my decisions in ME3.

[smudboy]

Crespire wrote...

@smudboy

So their base builds Reapers. Intel contracts manufacturing out to companies in Taiwan, do those Taiwanese companies make microprocessors that perform as well as Intel's?

Because the Collectors are tasked with making a Reaper, does not necessarily mean they know how all the pieces fit together, let alone have all the plans to make a Reaper so readily accessible to us.

Considering the Collectors have no mind of their own, someone must be calling the shots.

(Hint: It's the Reapers.)

Now if it's the Reapers, why would they hide information...from...themselves?

Seeing as how Collectors have very little mental capacity (see Indoctrination and the huge amount of tech inside them), it was likely that the schematics were imprinted into their cybernetics or minds. You destroyed that when the organic pulse went off.

If you can speculate to your advantage, then I will as well.

Why would grunts have imprints (do they even have any imprints) on building a Reaper?  I mean they could technically store such data in the Collectors "brains"...but...that seems very...very bizarre...

Yeah I'm just going to not think like you.

Sorry, what speculation did I just make up for you?

[smudboy]

Theoristitis wrote...
Smud, I don't know about you, but I was trying to stick to facts. To what Shepard knows. If we bring imagination in, I could simply say that the "beings of light", which that eccentric Volus billionaire claims to be digging for (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Klencory) will render the Collector Base entirely unnecessary.
When I made the decision to destroy the base, I based it on what I knew, on FACTS, not imagination.

And what facts are so relevant to destroying it?

Yes, they weren't much. I'm curious - where do you think Joker got those from? Off the extranet?
Or maybe...EDI downloaded them from the base? If there was ANYTHING else, why didn't she take those too? No memory capacity? Or was there nothing else to take?

And you're speculating.

It follows logically that electronically, there was nothing else to take. Was there anything physical to take that we didn't know about? I can't answer that, and neither can you. We'll know in ME3.

Take from what?  The "base"? As in that ridiculously massive super structure?  What, did EDI just download every bit of data from every computer on that thing, instantly, before it blew up?

What was I referring to? I was using my imagination, like you suggested. ANY weapons we might find in that base, apart from those the Collectors were holding, are imagination at this point in time. ANYTHING we might find in that base is imagination. This entire argument, until ME3, is a big game of WHAT IF.

Right.  And IF we find nothing, then no big deal.

IF we find something, more power to us.

There's only one bit of tech, really, that we KNOW is in there. I'm talking straight-up facts that Shepard is aware of. The Blender. And we know what that does. People who keep the base are fine with its existence. People who destroy it are not.

Ah huh.  And what is that "Blender" technology used for?  Building a Reaper, right.  So all those little pieces of technology we saw, that do that...wouldn't it be wise to, I don't know, maybe, figure out how it works?  Cause, you know, Reapers?  They're going to kill us all.

And I guess that whole skeleton thing, someone just bought it off space-eBay or something.  Went with the gooey decoration pods...

[Crespire]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]Crespire wrote...

@smudboy

So their base builds Reapers. Intel contracts manufacturing out to companies in Taiwan, do those Taiwanese companies make microprocessors that perform as well as Intel's?

Because the Collectors are tasked with making a Reaper, does not necessarily mean they know how all the pieces fit together, let alone have all the plans to make a Reaper so readily accessible to us.
[/quote]
Considering the Collectors have no mind of their own, someone must be calling the shots.

(Hint: It's the Reapers.)

Now if it's the Reapers, why would they hide information...from...themselves?

[/quote]

So Collectors = Reapers? Huh?

[quote][quote]
Seeing as how Collectors have very little mental capacity (see Indoctrination and the huge amount of tech inside them), it was likely that the schematics were imprinted into their cybernetics or minds. You destroyed that when the organic pulse went off.

If you can speculate to your advantage, then I will as well.[/quote]
Why would grunts have imprints (do they even have any imprints) on building a Reaper?  I mean they could technically store such data in the Collectors "brains"...but...that seems very...very bizarre...

Yeah I'm just going to not think like you.

Sorry, what speculation did I just make up for you?
[/quote][/quote]

Why would it be bizzare? We store information on our HDDs. The computer is a tool for us, much like VIs are tools for the people of Mass Effect. Collectors (to stretch it a bit) likely work in a similar way to mechs or VIs. They are limited to their physical systems, controlled by the Collector General, who is more directly possessed by Harbinger, a Reaper.

Modifié par Crespire, 02 août 2010 - 03:19 .

[smudboy]

Crespire wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Crespire wrote...

@smudboy

So their base builds Reapers. Intel contracts manufacturing out to companies in Taiwan, do those Taiwanese companies make microprocessors that perform as well as Intel's?

Because the Collectors are tasked with making a Reaper, does not necessarily mean they know how all the pieces fit together, let alone have all the plans to make a Reaper so readily accessible to us.

Considering the Collectors have no mind of their own, someone must be calling the shots.

(Hint: It's the Reapers.)

Now if it's the Reapers, why would they hide information...from...themselves?

So Collectors = Reapers? Huh?

Yeah you need to get to bed, and re-read that in the morning.

Seeing as how Collectors have very little mental capacity (see Indoctrination and the huge amount of tech inside them), it was likely that the schematics were imprinted into their cybernetics or minds. You destroyed that when the organic pulse went off.

If you can speculate to your advantage, then I will as well.

Why would grunts have imprints (do they even have any imprints) on building a Reaper?  I mean they could technically store such data in the Collectors "brains"...but...that seems very...very bizarre...

Yeah I'm just going to not think like you.

Sorry, what speculation did I just make up for you?

Why would it be bizzare? We store information on our HDDs. The computer is a tool for us, much like VIs are tools for the people of Mass Effect. Collectors (to stretch it a bit) likely work in a similar way to mechs or VIs. They are limited to their physical systems, controlled by the Collector General, who is more directly possessed by Harbinger, a Reaper.

Because you're making stuff up.

Modifié par smudboy, 02 août 2010 - 03:26 .

[didymos1120]

smudboy wrote...
The remains of a Reaper?  The thing wasn't even "born" yet.  Why would we even want to build a Reaper?

Oh, so we didn't fight a Reaper as the last boss then?

How did it get there?

Who built it?

What game did you play again?

I have some questions too:

What post did you read again?

and:

WTF are you talking about?

Seriously, that makes very little sense, given what I wrote.   And when did I ever say you'd want to build a Reaper?  I was disputing your claim that all (or at least most of) the knowledge required to do so would be in the base. Or did you mean something completely different by this?

The Collector base will at least contain technology on how to build a Reaper.

Unless detailed schematics and more or less complete instruction manuals are indeed stored there, which is most definitely not a given, you're stuck with what's left of the Reaper Larva and the machinery used in its construction. Or, actually whatever is left of that machinery.  You didn't exactly leave everything in the same condition you found it, and even without blowing the place up, there were still lots o' SPLOSIONS making a mess of things in various areas.  Like, for instance, where the Collector General hung out.  That place is ruined no matter what.

In any case, almost certainly not enough to fully understand how a Reaper is constructed or operates, assuming you have any real success at reverse-engineering any of it, and therefore of uncertain value in finding vulnerabilities against the fully-functional, complete variety.  I'd have thought this context was rather obvious, given that you also wrote this immediately after the above:

That's pretty pertinent info, considering, you know, we want to stop the Reapers. 

And like I said: if you want to reduce that uncertainty to any significant degree, THEN YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE BASE.  I wasn't making an argument against keeping it.  I was pointing out that you can't just assume we'll get scads of cool and potentially-war-winning gizmos out of it, no matter what they were doing in there. 

Seriously, do you just not read what anyone writes? Christ. Now I remember why I normally just ignore your posts.  Think I'll just avoid deviating from that policy again. 

[smudboy]

didymos1120 wrote...
I have some questions too:

What post did you read again?

and:

WTF are you talking about?

I don't know, in relation to what the argument entails, and I am always referring to logic and reason, through examples and deduction.

Seriously, that makes very little sense, given what I wrote.   And when did I ever say you'd want to build a Reaper?  I was disputing your claim that all (or at least most of) the knowledge required to do so would be in the base. Or did you mean something completely different by this?

I'm quite sure there is information and technology on how to build a Human Reaper in the base.

Unless detailed schematics and more or less complete instruction manuals are indeed stored there, which is most definitely not a given, you're stuck with what's left of the Reaper Larva and the machinery used in its construction. Or, actually whatever is left of that machinery.  You didn't exactly leave everything in the same condition you found it, and even without blowing the place up, there were still lots o' SPLOSIONS making a mess of things in various areas.  Like, for instance, where the Collector General hung out.  That place is ruined no matter what.

If they were building a Reaper in the base, then it's safe to say the base would possess the facilities necessary to do so.

If the place is "ruined no matter" what, they why blow it up?  Give a useless base to TIM.  I'm sure he'll be happy about it, have greater trust in you, and you can giggle behind his back while he wastes his time.

In any case, almost certainly not enough to fully understand how a Reaper is constructed or operates, assuming you have any real success at reverse-engineering any of it, and therefore of uncertain value in finding vulnerabilities against the fully-functional, complete variety.  I'd have thought this context was rather obvious, given that you also wrote this
immediately after the above:

All knowledge from the base is uncertain.

Still, it's also better than having no base at all.  The chance of knowledge is better than none.

And like I said: if you want to reduce that uncertainty to any significant degree, THEN YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE BASE.  I wasn't making an argument against keeping it.  I was pointing out that you can't just assume we'll get scads of cool and potentially-war-winning gizmos out of it, no matter what they were doing in there. 

I was not saying that at all either.  I was merely stating there'd be quite a lot of technology used in building a Reaper.

Seriously, do you just not read what anyone writes? Christ. Now I remember why I normally just ignore your posts.  Think I'll just avoid deviating from that policy again. 

No worries.  It'll save me time being able to reply to more responsive, and perhaps cognizant posters.

[Sajuro]

smudboy wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Ever considered that how to build a Reaper would have probably been imprinted on the Collector's minds? you know the ones you destroyed.

Nope.

They were mindless drones.

I meant in the blast, the collector general having the reaper blue prints imprinted onto his mind would make more sense than just some spare copies laying around the base.

[Dean_the_Young]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I mean, we're only told that the Omega 4 relay leads to a single small space pocket in the galactic core. It's not like that means anything or something.

Less sarcastically, why would there be more Collector bases? Centralization is a more effecient use of resources. It wouldn't be for security, because the Collectors/Reapers already had their determined number of security layers and they could simply bother to fortify the base they have rather than build another one.

Another base would mean more military power, speed and flexibility - in short, even the dumbest Iraqi general would have the military prowess to build another base (provided he has the resources to do so).

Given the nature of the space behind the Omega 4 relay (small, cluttered, hidden), another home base behind the relay does none of those things. It does not allow more flexible deployments, because it too is behind the relay and must go through the Omega 4 relay (the defining trait of Collector maneuvering). A second, separate base does not mean more military power when you can use those same resources to add to the first base at no loss of capability (and, indeed, a decrease due to the need to coordinate, transport, and replicate resources and systems at, to, and from both locations).

If the Collectors were going to build a second base in the name of security and military defense, even a pure military base without any of the science research and reaper-building doo dads of the Collector Base, at the same time they would have at least made their primary Base actually, you know, fortified. Defended. Security systems to be able to see the outside of the base at minimum, but also turrents, close support craft, etc.

But they didn't do that much.

Only a civilian would assume that there is only one Collector Base and one Collector cruiser. The burden of proof to provide evidence that there aren't other Collector bases/cruisers out there lie in the hands of the skeptics. This is also the best logical reason to destroy the Collector base, IMO.

What is it with people in this thread trying to pull the military card against me? Not only is the idea that only military people know logistics a logical fallacy, but using it against someone in the military just makes them seem silly. Especially after the first and second times.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 août 2010 - 11:29 .

[Theoristitis]

 Smud, it seems that for a forum page or two we've been arguing different arguments. I didn't realize you were mainly interested in the information aspect that might stem from analyzing the tech. Too many people do it mainly for the "weapons". I like your reason.

However, you say I speculated in my last post. Speculation would be the assumption that there might be weapons in the base that we could use, or that destroying the base would put the Council on our side.
What I did was deduction. Joker has pictures of a Reaper, presumably Harbinger.

Normandy never goes near Harbinger => Joker got the pictures elsewhere.
No currently living species has seen Harbinger except for the Collectors => only the Collectors have pictures of Harbinger.
The Collectors are based in the Collector Base (duh) => any pictures they have of Harbinger will be in the Collector Base. How do we know EDI didn't get them from the Cruiser? Because she would've shown Shepard before the Base.

So only the Collectors had the pictures, and they were in the Collector Base => EDI, and by extension Joker, could ONLY have gotten them from there => since they could not have done it in ANY way except electronically => it was downloaded, so to speak. If they loaded the pictures, but did not load anything else => either EDI and Joker are beyond stupid, or there wasn't anything else to load. Just the pictures.

The Collectors, as you have pointed out multiple times, are mindless drones => they don't think for themselves and can really only do basic physical stuff like shoot, fly, etc.
Harbinger is in Direct Control (as he's fond of telling us) => he controls the Collectors and has no need for external data => there won't be any data lying around the base.

Where do YOU think the pictures came from?

There's no data to be had. The only information we could possibly get is from analyzing the tech.
As for analyzing the tech, if you trust TIM, you're welcome to. I don't. Because of all his experiments, I can only think of one that had any good - Shepard's resurrection. And if that wasn't just a means to an end, I don't know what is. There's no denying TIM wants to help out humanity - but everything about his agenda (power for humanity) implies that the other species in the galaxy have to go, and billions of humans will die in addition to them.

The tech that we analyze there is not a deus ex. It won't show us the secret to wiping out the Reapers in one blow. It might give TIM a boost, but I don't believe he'll share before the galaxy is in flames. You do. I respect that.

The base is a moral decision, not a "right vs. wrong" one except from a subjective point of view. It killed hundreds of thousands, and I strongly believe that TIM would continue killing in order to analyze the process. You said we don't want to construct a Reaper. Well, we don't control the tech. TIM does. Everything about his character and actions in the games suggests that he likes to play God. I believe that he'll try to make his own Reaper, you don't. I think we can beat the Reapers without giving an egomaniacal power-starved terrorist the means to conquer a war-torn galaxy post-Reapers. You believe analyzing the tech will give us, if TIM reveals the findings, an advantage, which I also believe. In either case, there is good and bad.

G'night.



EDITED for paragraph spacing.

Modifié par Theoristitis, 02 août 2010 - 04:10 .

[Crespire]

@smudboy

The fact is we're both making things up. What we do know is that the Collector base has a human smoothie machine, and that's it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Ever considered that how to build a Reaper would have probably been imprinted on the Collector's minds? you know the ones you destroyed.

Nope.

They were mindless drones.

I meant in the blast, the collector general having the reaper blue prints imprinted onto his mind would make more sense than just some spare copies laying around the base.

...so AI who have genocidal disdain for organic capability and reliability, to the extent of cyborg-ing their slaves and 'ascending' those few organic races they do approve of into machine AI, are more sensibly going to entrust the critically important data (data which can not, under any circumstances, be corrupted to be used for the creation process) into the brain of the meat-bag vessel for use and recal rather than the machine-reliable computer systems?

[Dean_the_Young]

Crespire wrote...

@smudboy

The fact is we're both making things up. What we do know is that the Collector base has a human smoothie machine, and that's it.

And cutting-edge bio-warfare research data and facilities (Omega 4 plague), and genetic manipulation and cloning techniques (Grunt's pod), and particle weapon manufacturing capabilities (Collector Ship, Collector Weapons), and new armor-crafting techniques with regenerative technology (Collector Armor), and organic/artificial biotic weaponization systems (Collector Assault Rifle, Scions), and husk and husk-derivative knowledge and production (Abominations, Praetorians), and cybernetic implants and interfaces (the Collectors), and cyberwarfare programs and algorithms (admittedly beaten by EDI, but not everyone is going to have EDI on their side), and sensors capable of detected stealth frigates (ability to detect/fight both Normandy vessels), armor-penetrating anti-ship drones (Oculus defenses), and full/greater access to Mass Relay utility (IFF and hidden functions on Mass Relays), and resources/contacts to maintain a top-tier galaxy-wide intelligence net...

And every single Reaper system from indoctrination to E-zero cores to shields to targetting systems to armor composites to engine formation to, derived from what the human smoothie machine actually produces.

[Dave of Canada]

I've destroyed the base multiple times simply because by using it, we'd be losing our humanity.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Another base would mean more military power, speed and flexibility - in short, even the dumbest Iraqi general would have the military prowess to build another base (provided he has the resources to do so).

Given the nature of the space behind the Omega 4 relay (small, cluttered, hidden), another home base behind the relay does none of those things. It does allow more flexible deployments, because it too is behind the relay and must go through the Omega 4 relay (the defining trait of Collector maneuvering). A second, separate base does not mean more military power when you can use those same resources to add to the first base at no loss of capability (and, indeed, a decrease due to the need to coordinate, transport, and replicate resources and systems at, to, and from both locations).

That last part is ridiculous. You can't keep adding Collector drones and stuffing them in a base, even if there was no loss of capability - eventually, the stuff being "added" just becomes wasted and/or can be better used as part of a second base. If you want a bigger army, eventually you're gonna need to build a second base. Simple expansion/addition to the first base is further complicated by the fact that the safe zone behind the Omega 4 relay is very small and cluttered, as you pointed out. Any increase in the size of the base would mean an increase in mass, thus increasing the force of gravity that neighboring black holes exert on the base, which would in turn require bigger mass effect drive to keep the base aloft.

If were true, all cities would have one giant, mega police station, hospital and fire station....furthermore, entire countries would be defended by a single military base. Straw man, I know, but it just illustrates that it's simply not rational for Shepherd to make the assumption that there aren't any more Collector bases (yeah yeah, the player knows better, but from Shepherd's perspective, completely different)

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Collectors were going to build a second base in the name of security and military defense, even a pure military base without any of the science research and reaper-building doo dads of the Collector Base, at the same time they would have at least made their primary Base actually, you know, fortified. Defended. Security systems to be able to see the outside of the base at minimum, but also turrents, close support craft, etc.

But they didn't do that much.

Did you completely miss the Oculus fighters? Like did you not play that part of the game? It was a pretty long cutscene, if I remember correctly.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Only a civilian would assume that there is only one Collector Base and one Collector cruiser. The burden of proof to provide evidence that there aren't other Collector bases/cruisers out there lie in the hands of the skeptics. This is also the best logical reason to destroy the Collector base, IMO.

What is it with people in this thread trying to pull the military card against me? Not only is the idea that only military people know logistics a logical fallacy, but using it against someone in the military just makes them seem silly. Especially after the first and second times.

First of all, this is nothing to do with the military - the same advantages of having a second base/facility applies to military, health, law enforcement, etc. Secondly, from a strategic sense why don't you explain why you overlook these things instead of whining about it? I find it hard to believe that "someone in the military" would make the assumption that there is only one Collector base, servicing one Collector cruiser, especially when there is no intelligence to indicate that this is, in fact, the case.

Sure, you can Gamefaqs the ending of the game and make your decision that way, but I doubt fortune-telling is one of Commander Shepherd's many skills.

So Mr. Military, consider that when Shepherd made the jump through the Omega-4 relay he had essentially zero intel - from a military standpoint, explain how, as a member of a small infiltration unit on a sabotage mission, explain how it is possibly rational to make the assumption that there are no other Collectors around to retake/re-capture the Collector base should you decide to keep it for Cerberus?

And again, it's not just military. If you go visit a foreign city, do you assume that there is one police station using only one police cruiser? Do you assume that there is one hospital equipped with only one ambulance? One firetruck per fire station?

Not only is the idea that only military people know logistics a logical fallacy...

I believe the term you're looking for is 'a common misconception.' Logical fallacies are basically set examples of common mistakes people make when rationally working out or arguing their positions in a debate or paper or something.  

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 02 août 2010 - 07:30 .

[atheelogos]

Theoristitis wrote...

To add on to what Crespire said:

You're Commander Shepard. Your frigate defeated the Collector cruiser in a fair fight, whether you upgraded or not. You killed hundreds of Collectors, including Harbinger many times, and hundreds of husks and husk-upgrades with ease. You defeated a Larval Reaper with small-arms fire. You have small-scale and large-scale counters for the Seeker swarms.

What could *possibly* be in the Collector Base, other than the schematics Joker presents at the end no matter which decision you make, that is BETTER than what you have? If there IS something, why didn't they use it?

See you don't know whats in the base. Thats why it needs to studied. Making a judgment at a glance is a mistake that could cost us in the end.

Also there is one known piece of intel in the base. The armor for the Reaper shell. Also the tech for their shields is there. Without that tech you would need an entire fleet just to put a dent into a single Reaper. If you could put that tech into our ships you could fight them in one on one combat and win.

To put it simply we can't win this war if a single Reaper ship can destroy a fleet.

Modifié par atheelogos, 02 août 2010 - 08:25 .

[atheelogos]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I've destroyed the base multiple times simply because by using it, we'd be losing our humanity.

I'm sry but that sounds incredibly short sighted.

[didymos1120]

atheelogos wrote...
Also there is one known piece of intel in the base. The armor for the Reaper shell.

Not necessarily.  What you've got is plating and structural elements left over from the Larva.  May not be as tough as the hull of a complete Reaper.  Who knows?   

Also the tech for their shields is there.

Well, you're assuming they'd already built the shield systems and that all the details for making them were stored on the base.  The first is unlikely given how incomplete the Larva was.  It certainly didn't have them installed, or we'd have never been able to kill the thing.  The second isn't necessarily unlikely, but not a given either. 

What is a given is that, per the game and the Retribution novel, Reapers can control thralls like the Collectors remotely, in more or less real time.  Retribution also establishes that even if the thrall still has some sort of individual identity left, they'll often have no clue why they're doing whatever it is that they're doing.  I.e., all the plans and schematics and whatnot could have easily been stored in Harbinger itself, and it simply issued commands or executed Reaper macros that directly manipulated the Collectors physically, rather than sending the plans for Reaper Component X and saying "WE NEED THIS DONE BY NEXT THURSDAY. AND NO: ADDITIONAL OVERTIME HAS NOT BEEN AUTHORIZED. NOW GET CRACKING, PEOPLE!"

Besides which, there's nothing particularly special about Reaper shields as far as we know. The insane strength is mostly due to their having insanely large eezo cores. I'm sure some nifty refinements to basic kinetic barrier tech involved too, but it's mostly down to old-fashioned brute-force engineering.

[lovgreno]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

So Mr. Military, consider that when Shepherd made the jump through the Omega-4 relay he had essentially zero intel - from a military standpoint, explain how, as a member of a small infiltration unit on a sabotage mission, explain how it is possibly rational to make the assumption that there are no other Collectors around to retake/re-capture the Collector base should you decide to keep it for Cerberus?

And again, it's not just military. If you go visit a foreign city, do you assume that there is one police station using only one police cruiser? Do you assume that there is one hospital equipped with only one ambulance? One firetruck per fire station?

Other things about the base Shepard, TIMmy and everyone else have zero intel about:
The bases defences, traps and failsafes.
How a ancient reaper reactor of extreme power can be used for releasing a radiation wave  that removes all threats but leaves valuable things unharmed.
How to operate the base without assuming direct controll as a reaper.

Harbringer considered the base a safe place for building a new reaper and unexploded it was a threat against the galaxy, especialy humanity. If it was recaptured all would have been for nothing. That is all Shepard knew about it when TIMmy came up with that wild plan with the radiation wave.

Shepard does know that Harbringer is good at assuming controll of the Collectors, their bases and ships and people, ships and machines in their vicinity. Shepard does know that Collectors have been operating far and wide in the galaxy for a long time, some forward bases could be usefull there. Some might ask why those (I admit hypotetical) bases have not been found. But the galaxy is a big and mostly unmapped place with many places to hide. The Geth managed to keep 95% of their numbers secret after all.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[vehzeel]

didymos1120 wrote...

vehzeel wrote...

I agree with Asher. There might be (and most likely are) more Collector bases.

I agree with the "might be" part, but what reason(s) do you have for the "most likely"?  If anything, I'd think the opposite is the most likely.

Because relying on one base is stupid? If you want the upper hand over organics, it makes no sense to have only one base. You'd probably have a few to cover a wide area of space, so you can strike at several points if necessary.

[Super ._. Shepard]

you dont know what that main base covers its massive could contain a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY BIG GUN TO DESTROY THE REAPER or some high tech stuff about the reapers

[didymos1120]

vehzeel wrote...
Because relying on one base is stupid? If you want the upper hand over organics, it makes no sense to have only one base. You'd probably have a few to cover a wide area of space, so you can strike at several points if necessary.

You're assuming the Collectors were ever intended to attain that upper hand.  I don't see any reason to believe that was the idea. The Reapers themselves can handle that part just fine, and we know for a fact that is normally what happens.  It's just that we screwed up the whole Citadel relay thing, so they couldn't get going on the whole reaping thing.  The Collectors' purpose was to, well, collect small sample groups of various organic races so the Reapers could see if they were worth bothering with.  Secondarily, they seeded various technologies into galactic civilization by using it as payment for said samples. Abducting the populations of multiple colonies, by contrast, was totally at variance with all their known prior behavior.  People in the early game even point this out multiple times.  The fact that they're suddenly doing this is considered weird even for them.


In any case, the fact that you consider it stupid, based on certain assumptions, isn't evidence.  Evidence is stuff like people telling you there's another base, seeing another base, etc. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 août 2010 - 12:06 .

[smudboy]

Theoristitis wrote...
Where do YOU think the pictures came from?

The base.

There's no data to be had. The only information we could possibly get is from analyzing the tech.

So where'd the pictures come from?

As for analyzing the tech, if you trust TIM, you're welcome to. I don't. Because of all his experiments, I can only think of one that had any good - Shepard's resurrection. And if that wasn't just a means to an end, I don't know what is. There's no denying TIM wants to help out humanity - but everything about his agenda (power for humanity) implies that the other species in the galaxy have to go, and billions of humans will die in addition to them.

Well TIM did the resurrection thing, got Joker, rebuilt the Normandy, and well, was the whole ME2 plot.  I don't trust him either, but he's the only one doing anything.  He's also not ambiguously gray as we thought him to be, although maybe he's lying about knowing about past experiments.  Regardless of my relationship or how I think of the guy, that's totally irrelevant to throwing away potential information and technology about our enemy.

The Reapers are a greater threat to the galaxy than TIM.  Get every opportunity you can to stop them.

The tech that we analyze there is not a deus ex. It won't show us the secret to wiping out the Reapers in one blow. It might give TIM a boost, but I don't believe he'll share before the galaxy is in flames. You do. I respect that.

We don't know what exactly the base will reveal.  We do know it'll have knowledge on building a Human Reaper, which makes me wonder what those 4 squid like jpgs are all about.

The base is a moral decision, not a "right vs. wrong" one except from a subjective point of view.

So it's a moral decision, but not right vs. wrong?  I'm not following.

It killed hundreds of thousands, and I strongly believe that TIM would continue killing in order to analyze the process. You said we don't want to construct a Reaper. Well, we don't control the tech. TIM does. Everything about his character and actions in the games suggests that he likes to play God. I believe that he'll try to make his own Reaper, you don't.

Becaue we know the Collectors plan would've failed in building a Reaper, and they had this massive Cruiser to collect millions of people, which they never got around to doing, even after 2 years.  TIM does not.  It's simply logistically impossible (time, resources, etc.)

I think we can beat the Reapers without giving an egomaniacal power-starved terrorist the means to conquer a war-torn galaxy post-Reapers. You believe analyzing the tech will give us, if TIM reveals the findings, an advantage, which I also believe. In either case, there is good and bad.
G'night.
EDITED for paragraph spacing.

I bet the choice will have almost no impact on defeating the Reapers in ME3, too, simply because how BioWare deals with choices so far, and that many people will blow it up to snub TIM anyway.  Although it'd be hilarious if it did.

But the issue is the reasonings behind it: it's more beneficial to have something than not.  Just because I don't trust TIM, doesn't mean I don't trust him to stop the Reapers, as the CerberBus has clearly displayed in its railroading to work for the guy.

[atheelogos]

vehzeel wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

vehzeel wrote...

I agree with Asher. There might be (and most likely are) more Collector bases.

I agree with the "might be" part, but what reason(s) do you have for the "most likely"?  If anything, I'd think the opposite is the most likely.

Because relying on one base is stupid? If you want the upper hand over organics, it makes no sense to have only one base. You'd probably have a few to cover a wide area of space, so you can strike at several points if necessary.

I don't think that was the purpose of the collectors. And if there are other bases out there the one base we know of would know their location. You don't destroy intel. It's that simple.

Also I want to note that I think it's highly unlikely that there are other collectors out there.

[atheelogos]

Theoristitis wrote...

 Smud, it seems that for a forum page or two we've been arguing different arguments. I didn't realize you were mainly interested in the information aspect that might stem from analyzing the tech. Too many people do it mainly for the "weapons". I like your reason.

However, you say I speculated in my last post. Speculation would be the assumption that there might be weapons in the base that we could use, or that destroying the base would put the Council on our side.
What I did was deduction. Joker has pictures of a Reaper, presumably Harbinger.

Normandy never goes near Harbinger => Joker got the pictures elsewhere.
No currently living species has seen Harbinger except for the Collectors => only the Collectors have pictures of Harbinger.
The Collectors are based in the Collector Base (duh) => any pictures they have of Harbinger will be in the Collector Base. How do we know EDI didn't get them from the Cruiser? Because she would've shown Shepard before the Base.

So only the Collectors had the pictures, and they were in the Collector Base => EDI, and by extension Joker, could ONLY have gotten them from there => since they could not have done it in ANY way except electronically => it was downloaded, so to speak. If they loaded the pictures, but did not load anything else => either EDI and Joker are beyond stupid, or there wasn't anything else to load. Just the pictures.

The Collectors, as you have pointed out multiple times, are mindless drones => they don't think for themselves and can really only do basic physical stuff like shoot, fly, etc.
Harbinger is in Direct Control (as he's fond of telling us) => he controls the Collectors and has no need for external data => there won't be any data lying around the base.

Where do YOU think the pictures came from?

There's no data to be had. The only information we could possibly get is from analyzing the tech.
As for analyzing the tech, if you trust TIM, you're welcome to. I don't. Because of all his experiments, I can only think of one that had any good - Shepard's resurrection. And if that wasn't just a means to an end, I don't know what is. There's no denying TIM wants to help out humanity - but everything about his agenda (power for humanity) implies that the other species in the galaxy have to go, and billions of humans will die in addition to them.

The tech that we analyze there is not a deus ex. It won't show us the secret to wiping out the Reapers in one blow. It might give TIM a boost, but I don't believe he'll share before the galaxy is in flames. You do. I respect that.

The base is a moral decision, not a "right vs. wrong" one except from a subjective point of view. It killed hundreds of thousands, and I strongly believe that TIM would continue killing in order to analyze the process. You said we don't want to construct a Reaper. Well, we don't control the tech. TIM does. Everything about his character and actions in the games suggests that he likes to play God. I believe that he'll try to make his own Reaper, you don't. I think we can beat the Reapers without giving an egomaniacal power-starved terrorist the means to conquer a war-torn galaxy post-Reapers. You believe analyzing the tech will give us, if TIM reveals the findings, an advantage, which I also believe. In either case, there is good and bad.

Why wouldn't he reveal the findings? Cerberus can't fight a war on its own. It just not that type of organization and was never meant to be. Thats why he a number of front organizations, and a large number of agents in the Alliance. They do the reseach no one else will do and then feed the tech they gain back into the military and economy without without anyone being the wiser.

Tim keeping those secrets for himself makes no sense whatsoever. Cerberus could barely build one ship. How do expect them to build a fleet? Guys I know this might seem hard to believe but when he says he wants that technology for humanity I think he means it.

G'night.



EDITED for paragraph spacing.

"
There's no data to be had." How can you say this! The collectors had computers. Are you gonna sit there and tell me theres nothing in those computers?

Modifié par atheelogos, 02 août 2010 - 12:44 .