3478 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

Damn I messed that up again. Well nm you can still read it. lol

[Crespire]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Crespire wrote...

@smudboy

The fact is we're both making things up. What we do know is that the Collector base has a human smoothie machine, and that's it.

And cutting-edge bio-warfare research data and facilities (Omega 4 plague), and genetic manipulation and cloning techniques (Grunt's pod), and particle weapon manufacturing capabilities (Collector Ship, Collector Weapons), and new armor-crafting techniques with regenerative technology (Collector Armor), and organic/artificial biotic weaponization systems (Collector Assault Rifle, Scions), and husk and husk-derivative knowledge and production (Abominations, Praetorians), and cybernetic implants and interfaces (the Collectors), and cyberwarfare programs and algorithms (admittedly beaten by EDI, but not everyone is going to have EDI on their side), and sensors capable of detected stealth frigates (ability to detect/fight both Normandy vessels), armor-penetrating anti-ship drones (Oculus defenses), and full/greater access to Mass Relay utility (IFF and hidden functions on Mass Relays), and resources/contacts to maintain a top-tier galaxy-wide intelligence net...

And every single Reaper system from indoctrination to E-zero cores to shields to targetting systems to armor composites to engine formation to, derived from what the human smoothie machine actually produces.

Omega 4 plague = Mordin fixed. I'm sure he learned as much developing a cure for it, as he did making the Genophage. Tech is redundant.

Grunt's construction = Warlord Okeer. In terms of cloning techniques, we don't really know for sure, I assume that Okeer didn't create all those Krogan because the Collectors enabled him to. There is no mention of cloning technology elsewhere, but I doubt that Okeer was the first in the galaxy to do it. What is inside Grunt that makes him so perfect is another story. Mordin never pursues any follow-up on Grunt, and there is little we
know about what's actually inside him.

New armor/weapons etc - We already have those weapons in our posession, but you're right we don't understand how they work. Given enough time, I'm sure Cerberus or the Alliance might crack it. Is this a risk? Yes, but it's one I'm willing to take.

Husks/cybernetic implats - It seems to me we're already pretty good at cybernetic implants (human biotics), and we have no need for husks. They are simply mindless cannon fodder, and we have mechs for that.

Cyberwarfare algorithms - EDI

Advanced detection - We came through the Omega 4 relay on our own. not to mention the IFF probably emitted some sort of "I'm home!" signal. Don't forget that the stealth systems only hide the Normandy from EM detection systems, it doesn't hide you from visual contact. Who's to say the Collectors don't have vid monitors to make visual contact? Causality does not imply correlation.

Mass Relay tech - By continuing to use the Reaper Mass Relays, we continue to develop as they want. Protheans unlocked most of Mass Relay tech, we know about Ilos, and we can build our own. Again, a risk, but one worth it.

Finally, the human smoothie machine makes the paste. Sure we could learn how to make a human-reaper, but the tech may or may not be there. For all you know, the base just pumps paste onto the superstructure in some pattern, and the collectors actually did most of the work. The bottom line is, the only "FOR SURE" tech we would gain from keeping the base is insight on the human reaper, and that's not something I choose to keep. All the other "what-ifs" so far, we have demonstrated we already are capable of. Obviously, we were able to handle the collector threat.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm going to have to make this shorter: I tried a long reply and it just got ate, so forgive the hesitence in simply retyping all of it all over again.


[quote]
That last part is ridiculous. You can't keep adding Collector drones and stuffing them in a base, even if there was no loss of capability - eventually, the stuff being "added" just becomes wasted and/or can be better used as part of a second base. If you want a bigger army, eventually you're gonna need to build a second base. Simple expansion/addition to the first base is further complicated by the fact that the safe zone behind the Omega 4 relay is very small and cluttered, as you pointed out. Any increase in the size of the base would mean an increase in mass, thus increasing the force of gravity that neighboring black holes exert on the base, which would in turn require bigger mass effect drive to keep the base aloft. [/quote]'Adding stuff' enables the most effective land-warfare defense: defense in depth. The Collector Cruiser already has storage space in spades for even billions of captives in addition to their own combat forces, so clearly the Collector Base can handle it's own logistical needs. The Collector goal is to build a Reaper, not to be their own galaxy-conquering army.

You solve your own engineering objection with a solution we know the Collectors can do (bigger mass effect drives from the Reapers), but ignore that your own objection (more mass) applies the same to another base behind the relay. If it applies to one, it applies to the other as well, but one of those upscaling issues does not comes with the issue of making debris between the two an actual issue to be overcome.

[quote]
If were true, all cities would have one giant, mega police station, hospital and fire station....furthermore, entire countries would be defended by a single military base. Straw man, I know, but it just illustrates that it's simply not rational for Shepherd to make the assumption that there aren't any more Collector bases (yeah yeah, the player knows better, but from Shepherd's perspective, completely different)[/quote]Replication of facilities on Earth has much more to do with population dispersion than it does with anything else. 'Closed' environments that don't have that dispersal (military bases, ships, space stations) actually tend to concentration of specilized facilities. Fort Lewis, for example, is one of the largest (area) military bases the US has, and while it may have many small clinics across the base it only has one major hospital. It also clusters most of it's various like-type facilities into their own areas.

Multiple military bases  and civic facilities for nations comes from a need to protect widly dispersed land and people. In space, populations are highly concentrated and need no such replication.
[quote][quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Collectors were going to build a second base in the name of security and military defense, even a pure military base without any of the science research and reaper-building doo dads of the Collector Base, at the same time they would have at least made their primary Base actually, you know, fortified. Defended. Security systems to be able to see the outside of the base at minimum, but also turrents, close support craft, etc.

But they didn't do that much. [/quote]

Did you completely miss the Oculus fighters? Like did you not play that part of the game? It was a pretty long cutscene, if I remember correctly. [/quote]Since I was specifically talking about fortifications on the base itself, fortifications far cheaper and more relevant to the bases defense than building another base, I think you missed the point entirely. I'll let you reread it until you get it.

I'll also point out that if you were to build a second base just like the first, by the time one base or the other was assaulted and boarded, the enemy has also demonstrated the ability to neutralize the second bases ability to reinforce the first. Two space stations that can't travel to eachother (and the ability to neutralize one Collector Cruiser demonstrates an ability to do the same to another) might as well be on the opposite side of the galaxy.

[quote]
First of all, this is nothing to do with the military - the same advantages of having a second base/facility applies to military, health, law enforcement, etc. Secondly, from a strategic sense why don't you explain why you overlook these things instead of whining about it? I find it hard to believe that "someone in the military" would make the assumption that there is only one Collector base, servicing one Collector cruiser, especially when there is no intelligence to indicate that this is, in fact, the case. [/quote]If you want this to have nothing to do with the military, don't try and use it as a stick to beat others with. As I said, it makes you look silly. (And no need for scare quotes as you do further down: I assure you I am in the military. It just doesn't have anything to do with the validity of an argument.)

And you are mistaken: there is intelligence that this is the case. EDI, who has hacked both the Collector Ship and the Collector Base, has twice been in position to find any evidence of other bases or cruisers. While the first time was highly contested, and could excuse missing intel, the second time EDI demonstrated a thorough penetration of the Collector net, being able to draw up base schematics, reveal the Reaper construction process, and even hack Collector moving platforms for you. From the schematics of the base infrastructure and data trail alone EDI would know if there were more cruisers or bases out there. She doesn't, which reinforces other observations on the same page.

Why does just one cruiser appear every time the Collectors are involved? Why is there no second base detectable in that small area behind the Omega 4 Relay? Because there isn't another, and EDI is in the position to inform us if there was.

[quote]
So Mr. Military, consider that when Shepherd made the jump through the Omega-4 relay he had essentially zero intel - from a military standpoint, explain how, as a member of a small infiltration unit on a sabotage mission, explain how it is possibly rational to make the assumption that there are no other Collectors around to retake/re-capture the Collector base should you decide to keep it for Cerberus? [/quote]Besides that there was intelligence (they knew where they were going, that it was to be a space station, they knew proven Collector Capabilities and force types), the answer comes down simply to the two people who are in a position to know: EDI and TIM. (Also remembering the medium is important as well: I don't go to Mass Effect for military expertise, after all, and so I remember the limitations and unspoken rules of the narrative.)

EDI has access to the information, and TIM is reviewing it as well. Both would be and are in a position to inform Shepard that there is or is not more collector ships out there or more bases magically hidden. Neither corrects Shepard or the implied position that the Collector Base is singular. (And, as has already been discussed, if the base were not singular for purposes of military defense, we would also expect it to have additions and systems it did not have.) Even if one doubts the Illusive Man's claims, that EDI does not correct him/warn Shepard is an implied consent on her part, given her now personal loyalty to the Normandy crew. They are in a position to correct any such misbelief, and that they do not is best explained by that the belief of one base is correct, not out of duplicity.

And, of course, the narrative of the game has been telling us this. Conceded, the narrative is both a strength and a weakness to story validity. The nature of a story is that it can't be overbogged with tiny details needed to confirm every question from every angle. We are told to trust Mass Effect's narrative when it comes to choices and events, and it has routinely been true. Sometimes the game doesn't offer every detail to support it, but from that point on speculation needs to ba based on the game position, not imagined from elsewhere.

Would it hold in real life? No, but then neither would the Mass Effect timeline, the office of the Spectres, Shepard's revival, and a whole lot of other things.

[quote]
And again, it's not just military. If you go visit a foreign city, do you assume that there is one police station using only one police cruiser? Do you assume that there is one hospital equipped with only one ambulance? One firetruck per fire station? [/quote]In a spatially constrained city, similar to a ship or military base? Yes, there often is one primary hospital, one main police station.

Why you get one police cruiser in the analogy is beyond me, since one Collector Cruiser is far more significant an investment than a small car. Perhaps 'one super carrier' for our tiny island-sized city?
[quote]Not only is the idea that only military people know logistics a logical fallacy...[/quote]

I believe the term you're looking for is 'a common misconception.' Logical fallacies are basically set examples of common mistakes people make when rationally working out or arguing their positions in a debate or paper or something.  

[/quote]

[lovgreno]

There is one thing that implies that there are more collectors out there: The cruiser contained millions of pods wich implied that they was going to target Earth itself. For that they need much more than that frankly rather frail ship. Just implications, I admit but still something to consider.

[Dean_the_Young]

Crespire wrote...
Omega 4 plague = Mordin fixed. I'm sure he learned as much developing a cure for it, as he did making the Genophage. Tech is redundant.

The technology that produced that plague can produce other plagues, plauges Moridn may well not be in a position to be able to fix, and in the process of crafting a cure could let millions die. How is knowledge to defend against plagues capable of such targetted lethality ever redundant? 

Grunt's construction = Warlord Okeer. In terms of cloning techniques, we don't really know for sure, I assume that Okeer didn't create all those Krogan because the Collectors enabled him to. There is no mention of cloning technology elsewhere, but I doubt that Okeer was the first in the galaxy to do it. What is inside Grunt that makes him so perfect is another story. Mordin never pursues any follow-up on Grunt, and there is little we
know about what's actually inside him.

Okeer specifically says that the ability to create Grunt was technology from the Collectors. That was the reason he was a pirah in the first place, because he gave the Collectors so many Krogan. Even the Illusive Man sends you an email saying to keep the tank because of the advanced Collector Technology inside of it.

New armor/weapons etc - We already have those weapons in our posession, but you're right we don't understand how they work. Given enough time, I'm sure Cerberus or the Alliance might crack it. Is this a risk? Yes, but it's one I'm willing to take.

How is reverse engineering those weapons a risk to galactic survival?

Husks/cybernetic implats - It seems to me we're already pretty good at cybernetic implants (human biotics), and we have no need for husks. They are simply mindless cannon fodder, and we have mechs for that.

...you do remember all that stuff about how Collector technology is still above what we currently have, correct? That applies for implants as well: you get to scan Collector tech for credits more than once, and what do the Asari or Alliance have that can be compared to the power any Collector has when direct control is assumed? Those sort of implants, that power, for any grunt...

The Collectors had the ability for every member of their army to use powerful biotics. Biotics are incredibly rare in the human populace: just think of the possible increase in combat effectiveness.

Mechs can't (haven't been shown able to) be able to make biotic fields and biotic weaponization. And more than  the ability to create husks/husk derivatives (which is cheap and free considering all you need is a dead corpse) can come the opportunity to research how to destroy them better. And you can bet the Reapers will be using plenty of them in the future.

Cyberwarfare algorithms - EDI

EDI can not and won't be everywhere, and can't do everything. Neither will similar AI. She's still working on the Reaper blackbox cyberwarfare bits, and those were just fragments of Sovereign's remains.

Advanced detection - We came through the Omega 4 relay on our own. not to mention the IFF probably emitted some sort of "I'm home!" signal. Don't forget that the stealth systems only hide the Normandy from EM detection systems, it doesn't hide you from visual contact. Who's to say the Collectors don't have vid monitors to make visual contact? Causality does not imply correlation.

Then those vid monitors are very, very good and you should want them considering they were able to see the Normandy 1 just as well. It's hard to see things in space, and that is still a technology that you want, both for your own use and to see how you can circumvent it before the Reapers come.

Mass Relay tech - By continuing to use the Reaper Mass Relays, we continue to develop as they want. Protheans unlocked most of Mass Relay tech, we know about Ilos, and we can build our own. Again, a risk, but one worth it.

The point of the mass relays is that you can use them forever without understanding how they work. It's the foundation of the Reaper trap that we broke: functionality without understanding.

The Protheans might have cracked part of the Mass Relay secrets, but we haven't. An Asari Matriarch was nearly exiled out of shame when she suggested doing so. According to Cerberus news, scientists only recently discovered previously unknown dark switches on the Mass Relays.

There are plenty of things we could eventually discover with the luxury of unlimited time... but we don't have that.

Finally, the human smoothie machine makes the paste. Sure we could learn how to make a human-reaper, but the tech may or may not be there. For all you know, the base just pumps paste onto the superstructure in some pattern, and the collectors actually did most of the work.

And the knowledge and tools of how those Collectors craft it would also be on the base. And the human paste, if it can be molded into so many pieces so, would be a bonanza in and of itself for material sciences.

The bottom line is, the only "FOR SURE" tech we would gain from keeping the base is insight on the human reaper, and that's not something I choose to keep. All the other "what-ifs" so far, we have demonstrated we already are capable of. Obviously, we were able to handle the collector threat.

You didn't even contest all the tech on the base from that list: you just offered  possible alternative, potential ways to get it (or tried to dismiss it as irrelevant). You're countering your very own position because you have already made a number of concessions about Collector technology found on the base.

You very position of 'what ifs can't count' undermines your argument to destroy the base. If, and we're going by your what if here, the only practical/utility knowledge in the base is how to make human goo and nothing more, then there would be no cost in letting Cerberus get its hands on it. What does not exist can't be abused: even if Cerberus were to needlessly put people into the smoothie maker, all they'd have is useless smoothie because, according to you, there isn't the knowledge to make the Reaper and get all those incredibly useful Reaper parts that we can replicate like the Thannix without need for further smoothies.

Well, Cerberus investing tons of resources in a dead end project which will give them no benefit seems like an ideal way to marginalize the organization if you hate it.

You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that giving the base to Cerberus is a threat because TIM will abuse it, and then turn around and say that there is no technology for him to utilize if you keep it.



Oh, yeah, and there the fact the game tells you the base has highly valuable technology, something every member of your team will agree with regardless of what they feel. Minor detail there.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 août 2010 - 03:29 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Agreed 100% Dean. The argument that the Collector base is only good for making Reaper smoothies is an incredibly ignorant and facile argument.

[Giggles_Manically]

TIM: Stare deep into my glowy demon eyes, and you shall see only the nobelest of goals.
ME: HAHAHAHA NO.  <activates the self destruct>

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 02 août 2010 - 03:33 .

[vehzeel]

didymos1120 wrote...

vehzeel wrote...
Because relying on one base is stupid? If you want the upper hand over organics, it makes no sense to have only one base. You'd probably have a few to cover a wide area of space, so you can strike at several points if necessary.

You're assuming the Collectors were ever intended to attain that upper hand.  I don't see any reason to believe that was the idea. The Reapers themselves can handle that part just fine, and we know for a fact that is normally what happens.  It's just that we screwed up the whole Citadel relay thing, so they couldn't get going on the whole reaping thing.  The Collectors' purpose was to, well, collect small sample groups of various organic races so the Reapers could see if they were worth bothering with.  Secondarily, they seeded various technologies into galactic civilization by using it as payment for said samples. Abducting the populations of multiple colonies, by contrast, was totally at variance with all their known prior behavior.  People in the early game even point this out multiple times.  The fact that they're suddenly doing this is considered weird even for them.


In any case, the fact that you consider it stupid, based on certain assumptions, isn't evidence.  Evidence is stuff like people telling you there's another base, seeing another base, etc. 

Yes, indeed I assume that one of the roles the Collectors have/had is to keep tabs on organic races regarding what strengths they have, be it technological, biotic, military etc. Wouldn't it be hard to do if you only had one place from which you launch your operations?
But yes, I assume certain things, like that the Collectors and Reapers have a back-up plan and make use of tactics and strategies. I mean, eventually someone would come through the O-4 Relay and eff things up
But no, I admit that assuming things doesn't make them evidence

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

There is one thing that implies that there are more collectors out there: The cruiser contained millions of pods wich implied that they was going to target Earth itself. For that they need much more than that frankly rather frail ship. Just implications, I admit but still something to consider.

It implies the opposite about there being more Collector Cruisers, actually: if there was another Collector Cruiser, they wouldn't need each to be so over-stocked with capacity. The Collector Cruiser already has more capacity than it needs for the entire Terminus systems, and we know that it doesn't wait until full before returning to base. If there was another one, two, or three, they could cut the capacity and put in more systems of other use.

While the desireability of more fighter/combat ships is obvious, the presence of more cruisers now is not.(And, come to that, we never really get an idea of how frail the ship is: did it flee Horizon because it had to, or were the turrents the excuse and cover to lay a trap to catch Shepard once and for all?)

[Whatever42]

Human beings were disassembled, presumably with some sort of nano-technology, and then reassembled into organic parts for Reapers. Obviously, there are some huge advancements for medical science there.

Of course, Cerberus can resurrect Shepard, so maybe not.

They would probably also try to weaponize it.

Unfortunately, the power would fail and it would kill their entire research team. Probably turning them into zombie monsters.

And Shepard would have to come back and destroy the base anyway.

Paragon Shepard is just being efficient. Renegade Shepard loves killing zombie monsters and wants to come back. The choice is clear for each.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 02 août 2010 - 03:38 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
'Adding stuff' enables the most effective land-warfare defense: defense in depth. The Collector Cruiser already has storage space in spades for even billions of captives in addition to their own combat forces, so clearly the Collector Base can handle it's own logistical needs. The Collector goal is to build a Reaper, not to be their own galaxy-conquering army.

"Defense-in-depth" clearly does not apply cause the Collector base was clearly poorly defended. Furthermore, it still does not make sense to make the assumption that there isn't a second Collector cruiser.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You solve your own engineering objection with a solution we know the Collectors can do (bigger mass effect drives from the Reapers), but ignore that your own objection (more mass) applies the same to another base behind the relay. If it applies to one, it applies to the other as well, but one of those upscaling issues does not comes with the issue of making debris between the two an actual issue to be overcome.

Firstly, no, I definitely do not solve my own engineering problem - for all we know, upgrading the base with a more powerful mass effect drive may mean a total overhaul of the first base, thus you might as well build a second base. Secondly, why do you make the assumption that the second base has to be in the same safe zone behind the Omega 4 relay?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Replication of facilities on Earth has much more to do with population dispersion than it does with anything else. 'Closed' environments that don't have that dispersal (military bases, ships, space stations) actually tend to concentration of specilized facilities. Fort Lewis, for example, is one of the largest (area) military bases the US has, and while it may have many small clinics across the base it only has one major hospital. It also clusters most of it's various like-type facilities into their own areas.

Multiple military bases  and civic facilities for nations comes from a need to protect widly dispersed land and people. In space, populations are highly concentrated and need no such replication.

Ok, that makes sense to counter an argument for a second base. How bout a second Collector cruiser?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll also point out that if you were to build a second base just like the first, by the time one base or the other was assaulted and boarded, the enemy has also demonstrated the ability to neutralize the second bases ability to reinforce the first. Two space stations that can't travel to eachother (and the ability to neutralize one Collector Cruiser demonstrates an ability to do the same to another) might as well be on the opposite side of the galaxy.

With FTL travel and the Mass Effect relays, I really don't see why it's a probelm if the second base is on the other side of the galaxy? Collector cruisers could be operating out of the second facility like a forward operating base - i.e. it's purpose doesn't have to be defense.

It could be; it could be anything - my point is that it's unsafe to make the assumption that there is only one base operating one Collector cruiser.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you want this to have nothing to do with the military, don't try and use it as a stick to beat others with.

People keep talking about the military context, so...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And you are mistaken: there is intelligence that this is the case. EDI, who has hacked both the Collector Ship and the Collector Base, has twice been in position to find any evidence of other bases or cruisers. While the first time was highly contested, and could excuse missing intel, the second time EDI demonstrated a thorough penetration of the Collector net, being able to draw up base schematics, reveal the Reaper construction process, and even hack Collector moving platforms for you.

"Thorough penetration" is debatable. Prior to the Omega-4 jump, TIM literally said that they have no idea  what's on the other side.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
From the schematics of the base infrastructure and data trail alone EDI would know if there were more cruisers or bases out there. She doesn't, which reinforces other observations on the same page.

The problem is that none of the conversation options allowed Shepherd to field that question directly. Now you're justifying one assumption (One base, one cruiser) with another assumption (EDI t

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why does just one cruiser appear every time the Collectors are involved? Why is there no second base detectable in that small area behind the Omega 4 Relay? Because there isn't another, and EDI is in the position to inform us if there was.

The whole conversation with Joker at the beginning of the disabled Collector ship mission ("I had a hunch that this was the same ship from two years ago" convo with Shepherds's "The same ship dogging me for two years? Too much of a coincidence" response) implies that even Shepherd at the very least believed that there should be multiple Collector ships operating.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EDI has access to the information, and TIM is reviewing it as well. Both would be and are in a position to inform Shepard that there is or is not more collector ships out there or more bases magically hidden.

Again, at the time of the jump, TIM basically said that they were sending Shepherd and his team in blind. Doesn't sound like the Collectors were as thoroughly hacked as you thought.

[Dean_the_Young]

vehzeel wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

vehzeel wrote...
Because relying on one base is stupid? If you want the upper hand over organics, it makes no sense to have only one base. You'd probably have a few to cover a wide area of space, so you can strike at several points if necessary.

You're assuming the Collectors were ever intended to attain that upper hand.  I don't see any reason to believe that was the idea. The Reapers themselves can handle that part just fine, and we know for a fact that is normally what happens.  It's just that we screwed up the whole Citadel relay thing, so they couldn't get going on the whole reaping thing.  The Collectors' purpose was to, well, collect small sample groups of various organic races so the Reapers could see if they were worth bothering with.  Secondarily, they seeded various technologies into galactic civilization by using it as payment for said samples. Abducting the populations of multiple colonies, by contrast, was totally at variance with all their known prior behavior.  People in the early game even point this out multiple times.  The fact that they're suddenly doing this is considered weird even for them.


In any case, the fact that you consider it stupid, based on certain assumptions, isn't evidence.  Evidence is stuff like people telling you there's another base, seeing another base, etc. 

Yes, indeed I assume that one of the roles the Collectors have/had is to keep tabs on organic races regarding what strengths they have, be it technological, biotic, military etc. Wouldn't it be hard to do if you only had one place from which you launch your operations?

Since the Collectors hide behind the Omega 4 relay, a choke point, no. It doesn't matter how many bases you put behind that relay, they still have to go through that known point, so it doesn't matter where they launch from behind it. Consider it in civil terms: is it more effecient for everyone going to work to live in one small area or come in from everywhere? No matter where they live, they have to walk through the same door.

You can set up mass transit (cheaper, more effecient, less global warming concerns) if everyone lives in a few apartments rather than littered across the suburbs.

The Collectors are like that, only it's work on both sides of the door way. And offices and work labs do favor concentration for the same reason the US moved most of it's War Department from many buildings to the Pentagon.

But yes, I assume certain things, like that the Collectors and Reapers have a back-up plan and make use of tactics and strategies. I mean, eventually someone would come through the O-4 Relay and eff things up
But no, I admit that assuming things doesn't make them evidence

Just like someone will one day beat the Reapers?

Indefinite trends don't necessarily fail, and the Reapers have more than enough history to justify making the choices they do (and do not).

[Spartas Husky]

Why destroy it.. lke jack puts it:



"it was one hell of an explosion , right?"

[Asheer_Khan]

You all apparently forget one thing which could be crucial for whole base aspect.



What if this base is nothing more than shipyard AND Reaper refueling station?



After all Reapers coming to our galaxy for nothing more that REFUELING with bio-milk shakes made from living beings.



In fact Harbinger's latest words "...you change nothing..." indicates that this base is NOT CRUCIAL for him and can be easy scratch out from the list.



In matter of fact if this base would be so important as many here suspect wouldn't Reapers don't left to defense one or two ships?

Maybe this base was active because harbinger didn't anticipated that Citadel Battle scenario could go in such troubling for him way (aka Sovieregin's elimination and blockade of the Citadel relay) but now perhaps another station takeover what role of Omega 4 station have and perhaps we haven't see the Collectors for the last time.



And final thing, saying witch so huge confidention "I am quite sure..., i known, at 100%..." when comes to possible reaper tech stored in this base is in my opinion too far fetched...



And seriously claiming that thanks of reverse engineering we will be able to understand reapers blueprints IS Mc'Guyver/ID 4 syndrome... which i really hope will NOT be the case for ME 3.

[Crespire]

@Dean_the_young

You are assuming the Collectors are capable of things like innovation. They are merely shells. They operate on the Reaper's crux. They use, but who knows if they understand?

Sure they have all this tech that, I do conceed, could be useful, but I highly doubt the Collectors function like other organics in their basic mental capacity. If we had more information that could have been valuable, don't you think EDI would have grabbed it when she had the chance?

The basis for destroying the base is two fold for me.
1) I feel most of the tech we could gain is already something within our grasp, or we have access to it elsewhere.
2) The Collectors are just tools, a screw driver can not drive a screw unless you pick it up and use it. This much is clear about the Collectors, "in this case, the Collectors provide the labor."

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
'Adding stuff' enables the most effective land-warfare defense: defense in depth. The Collector Cruiser already has storage space in spades for even billions of captives in addition to their own combat forces, so clearly the Collector Base can handle it's own logistical needs. The Collector goal is to build a Reaper, not to be their own galaxy-conquering army.[/quote]

"Defense-in-depth" clearly does not apply cause the Collector base was clearly poorly defended.[/quote]Which aptly demonstrates that the Collectors aren't set up to be a military force, and so assuming that they're suddenly amazingly prepared in one respect (redundant bases) while they are clearly abysmally lacking in a far more pressing respect (defending the very Reaper factory they exist to create) is illogical.

[quote]
Furthermore, it still does not make sense to make the assumption that there isn't a second Collector cruiser.[/quote]If there was a second Collector cruiser,  the Collector Base would have the resources and knowledge to deal with it. Computer records, larger supply caches, secondary/tertiary docks to receive the additional human pod payloads. Things that EDI could and would see from the schematics and further as she broke into the base network.


[quote]
Firstly, no, I definitely do not solve my own engineering problem - for all we know, upgrading the base with a more powerful mass effect drive may mean a total overhaul of the first base, thus you might as well build a second base. [/quote]As an engineering rule, an overhaul is easer than building another megastructure. As a relevant detail, why do they need to expand in the first place when they felt secure enough as they were? First comes the expansion, then duplication.
[quote]
Secondly, why do you make the assumption that the second base has to be in the same safe zone behind the Omega 4 relay? [/quote]Because Mass Relay pairs take you to a point in space, not many. Unless there are more mass relays within the safe zone (which scans would have shown and we were not told or given any indication of), the Omega 4 relay leads to a coldesac and nothing more.


[quote]
Ok, that makes sense to counter an argument for a second base. How bout a second Collector cruiser?[/quote]Overcapacity, as I mentioned in another reply. The first cruiser is far too large for the tasks (colony abductions) to justify building another of the same size. The only place it's capacity is justified for is to raid Earth and maybe a few of the largest colonies. If there were just one additional cruiser, they could halve the pod space and put in better systems, and then use both ships on those larger colonies. Same overall capacity, increased combat effectiveness and the ability to hit more places at once for quicker completion of their overall mission.

In short, the Collector Cruiser is too over-designed to warrant replication. It's a ship built with the purpose of hitting one really big target (Earth, to which it could simply carry it's own support craft and such in it's cargo bays), so much so that it alone is overkill for all the other little targets we see it hitting first. Multiple cruisers would have smaller pod space simply because they don't need it.

[quote]
With FTL travel and the Mass Effect relays, I really don't see why it's a probelm if the second base is on the other side of the galaxy? Collector cruisers could be operating out of the second facility like a forward operating base - i.e. it's purpose doesn't have to be defense.


It could be; it could be anything - my point is that it's unsafe to
make the assumption that there is only one base operating one Collector
cruiser.
[/quote]Collector MO at this point: the Collectors hide themselves and their technology behind the Omega relay, which they demonstratably can pass through easily when they want to contact someone else.

A FOB (forward operating base for everyone else) is primarily used as a forward staging post and presence area, but FTL travel, relays, and the nature of the Collector Mission negates the need for a major FOB. Since the Collector ship has to return through the Omega 4 relay regardless in order to return with the captured colonists to build the Reaper baby, and it has more than enough room to do so, the FOB doesn't serve as a cache point to stash the bodies or create another Reaper (why halve your time to complete one when the completing the first is your endgame?). And since the Collector cruiser returns to the Collector Base in the first place, it doesn't need to move out to a FOB for re-arming and re-supply because it gets it right from the base. And with the relays and FTL travel and the Collector's spartan living nature, they can simply quickly get from the Omega 4 relay to the Mass Relay network, at which point they can get across the galaxy quickly.

They don't need another staging point because they have to return to the Collector base anyway. They don't need to be forward because the Mass Relay network lets them move quickly enough that behind the Omega 4 relay is forward for all intents and purposes. And they don't want to be operating forward because that's the Reaper gameplay with the Collectors: hide them behind Omega 4 until they want to leave.

So if they don't need to be forward, don't want to be operating openly, and already have the base they need, and then all computer hacking EDI and TIM give no indication of another base, there very likely isn't another base.

[quote]
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you want this to have nothing to do with the military, don't try and use it as a stick to beat others with.[/quote]

People keep talking about the military context, so...[/quote]It doesn't matter. Being in the military does not make you an expert in all matters military, while being a civilian does not disqualify your arguments. That's why it's a logical fallacy in the first place.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

And you are mistaken: there is intelligence that this is the case. EDI, who has hacked both the Collector Ship and the Collector Base, has twice been in position to find any evidence of other bases or cruisers. While the first time was highly contested, and could excuse missing intel, the second time EDI demonstrated a thorough penetration of the Collector net, being able to draw up base schematics, reveal the Reaper construction process, and even hack Collector moving platforms for you.[/quote]
[quote]
"Thorough penetration" is debatable. Prior to the Omega-4 jump, TIM literally said that they have no idea  what's on the other side. [/quote]Thorough penetration of the base, which of course can only be done after going through Omega 4. How debatable it is is irrelevant that she was clearly able to get detailed schematics (enough to figure out how to infiltrate, navigate, and then destroy/neutralize the base) and comb through their Reaper data, both of which would be far more pressing to the Collector's immediate defense needs than evidence of another cruiser.


[quote]
The problem is that none of the conversation options allowed Shepherd to field that question directly. Now you're justifying one assumption (One base, one cruiser) with another assumption (EDI t[/quote]You can't question a lot of things in Mass Effect that you might want to. Congratulations, you've discovered the limits of a pre-written script. When that happens, items that reinforce eachother are  believable. What the game says and implies, unless it later contradicts, can be considered true.

Mass Effect isn't a game narrative like, say, Fallout or Metal Gear, where people regularly lie to you or the plot overturns what you previously believed. Even TIM goes with half truths, and he's the most manipulative bastard in the game.

[quote]
The whole conversation with Joker at the beginning of the disabled Collector ship mission ("I had a hunch that this was the same ship from two years ago" convo with Shepherds's "The same ship dogging me for two years? Too much of a coincidence" response) implies that even Shepherd at the very least believed that there should be multiple Collector ships operating. [/quote]And yet, as that same quote shows, Shepard was wrong. Voila.

[quote]
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

EDI has access to the information, and TIM is reviewing it as well. Both would be and are in a position to inform Shepard that there is or is not more collector ships out there or more bases magically hidden.[/quote]

Again, at the time of the jump, TIM basically said that they were sending Shepherd and his team in blind. Doesn't sound like the Collectors were as thoroughly hacked as you thought.

[/quote]I honestly have no idea what you point is, because it has nothing to do with mine.

Yes, before jumping through the Omega 4 relay, EDI and TIM didn't have the details of the Collector Base which they got when EDI hacked the Collector Base. That has nothing to do with whether or not EDI and TIM could be reviewing the information as you fight your way through the Collector Base, or whether they could inform Shepard during that time upto and leading to his big choice. They did have the access to look at and the opportunity to inform Shepard so he could make an informed decision if that was a concern.

That the game doesn't come in with a line of EDI calling up Shepard and going 'there are no more bases/ships after this one' doesn't mean Shepard must be ignorant of all things. It, again, is a restriction of the medium and the need to avoid unneeded clutter. There was never evidence in-game to suggest that there was another base. We already had good reason to believe that the Collector Cruiser was our arch nemesis. The important point is that, these beliefs already established by the narrative, TIM and EDI both had the access, the reason, and the opportunity to inform Shepard if there was another Collector threat. That neither did is simplest and best explained by the point that no, there is not another Collector threat you should worry about.

[Dean_the_Young]

Crespire wrote...

@Dean_the_young

You are assuming the Collectors are capable of things like innovation. They are merely shells. They operate on the Reaper's crux. They use, but who knows if they understand?

Since the Reapers control the Collectors, and the Reapers can innovate (and pass such innovation through the Collector General), saying the Collectors can innovate (such as developing new bio viruses) is an acceptable shorthand even though in truth it is the Reapers doing the thinking. The two factions are intimately intertwined.

Sure they have all this tech that, I do conceed, could be useful, but I highly doubt the Collectors function like other organics in their basic mental capacity. If we had more information that could have been valuable, don't you think EDI would have grabbed it when she had the chance?

That comes to the point of how much chance and access she had into the base. Enough space to figure out what they were upto =/= in-depth analysis of all weapon technologies and construction techniques. Those are the sort of things you prefer hardware for anyway.

We already know that EDI didn't have the chance to grab all useful information: if she had, TIM would never have wanted to keep the base, because EDI was already sending him everything. The fact the TIM wants the base, even with all the data EDI is sending, is evidence that EDI doesn't have all or even most of what's valuable.

The basis for destroying the base is two fold for me.
1) I feel most of the tech we could gain is already something within our grasp, or we have access to it elsewhere.

Collector tech in and of itself has always been portrayed as reachable but beyond the current cutting edge: the five/ten year in advance rule. But what's far more potent is the actual Reaper technology on the base: more than the Collectors themselves, who are paced to be just a bit ahead, but actual centuries-ahead Reaper tech.

We know it's there. We killed it. And then TIM tells us there's more, and all the crew will agree that it was.

You can't dispute that there is major technology in the base unless you dispute the game's own position on the matter. It would be about as successful as arguing that the Citadel species actually love an all human council, or that sending human ships to rescue the fleeing Council actually boosted your chances against Sovereign: you can argue it as much as you want, but the game said differently.

2) The Collectors are just tools, a screw driver can not drive a screw unless you pick it up and use it. This much is clear about the Collectors, "in this case, the Collectors provide the labor."

What does that have to do with any benefit in the base? If the Collectors are just the labor, that would imply the knowledge present there is separate from them and even more accessible.

[smudboy]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

You all apparently forget one thing which could be crucial for whole base aspect.

What if this base is nothing more than shipyard AND Reaper refueling station?

Then we can study how the ships are made and what fuel they use.

Oh and it builds Reapers.

After all Reapers coming to our galaxy for nothing more that REFUELING with bio-milk shakes made from living beings.

You have a very colorful imagination.

In fact Harbinger's latest words "...you change nothing..." indicates that this base is NOT CRUCIAL for him and can be easy scratch out from the list.

I'm quite sure that means Shepard has changed nothing.

In matter of fact if this base would be so important as many here suspect wouldn't Reapers don't left to defense one or two ships?

Time and time again, we learn the Reapers just weren't expecting Commander Shepard and the power of assault rifles.

Maybe this base was active because harbinger didn't anticipated that Citadel Battle scenario could go in such troubling for him way (aka Sovieregin's elimination and blockade of the Citadel relay) but now perhaps another station takeover what role of Omega 4 station have and perhaps we haven't see the Collectors for the last time.

And maybe it's just there to look pretty.

And final thing, saying witch so huge confidention "I am quite sure..., i known, at 100%..." when comes to possible reaper tech stored in this base is in my opinion too far fetched...

Except we can say for 100% certain that it has technology to build a Human Reaper.

And seriously claiming that thanks of reverse engineering we will be able to understand reapers blueprints IS Mc'Guyver/ID 4 syndrome... which i really hope will NOT be the case for ME 3.

I don't know what to expect from ME3, but from the base, at least knowledge of Reaper building.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

You all apparently forget one thing which could be crucial for whole base aspect.

What if this base is nothing more than shipyard AND Reaper refueling station?

Then it's hardly a base. Having another base when you won't even defend your shipyard is the height of stupidity.

After all Reapers coming to our galaxy for nothing more that REFUELING with bio-milk shakes made from living beings.

Since Reapers are made from the bio shakes of their component species, the rest of whom they kill, they rather lack the same-type species to refuel from. (Unless my musing about the Dark Citadel on the other side of the Citadel relay are true, but-)

Nothing suggests that all biological life is equivalent for the reapers.

In fact Harbinger's latest words "...you change nothing..." indicates that this base is NOT CRUCIAL for him and can be easy scratch out from the list.

Because when the Reapers return and kill us all, they can rebuild it. Why would destroying the base change everything?

In matter of fact if this base would be so important as many here suspect wouldn't Reapers don't left to defense one or two ships?

Important in which way? The Collectors are clearly the backup plan: they didn't activate until Sovereign died. Before then they didn't need the ships (if somehow destroyed they could be rebuilt after the next cycle), and after Sovereign they didn't necessarily have the time or resources to go on a fleet-building spree if they couldn't even fortify their own base.

And final thing, saying witch so huge confidention "I am quite sure..., i known, at 100%..." when comes to possible reaper tech stored in this base is in my opinion too far fetched...

You can't build a Reaper without Reaper technology. A reaper is, by definition, Reaper technology.

The game tells us there is highly potent tech. It's the entire basis of not giving it to TIM, for fear he will misuse it. He can't misuse what isn't there.

And seriously claiming that thanks of reverse engineering we will be able to understand reapers blueprints IS Mc'Guyver/ID 4 syndrome... which i really hope will NOT be the case for ME 3.

Congratulations. You fail engineering and history. Again.

[Asheer_Khan]

All i see in this thread is bunch of BLIND people lured by promise of something what can't even be here and absolute ridiculous overconfidence and arrogance that humans will be able to achieve something what THOUSAND Prothean scientists hidden on Illos were unable to do aka understand how reapers are build.

And dean in matter of fact it's YOU who are all time WRONG in every single aspect.

GOOD DAY... whoever you are.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 02 août 2010 - 05:20 .

[Crespire]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Crespire wrote...

@Dean_the_young

You are assuming the Collectors are capable of things like innovation. They are merely shells. They operate on the Reaper's crux. They use, but who knows if they understand?

Since the Reapers control the Collectors, and the Reapers can innovate (and pass such innovation through the Collector General), saying the Collectors can innovate (such as developing new bio viruses) is an acceptable shorthand even though in truth it is the Reapers doing the thinking. The two factions are intimately intertwined.

Sure they have all this tech that, I do conceed, could be useful, but I highly doubt the Collectors function like other organics in their basic mental capacity. If we had more information that could have been valuable, don't you think EDI would have grabbed it when she had the chance?

That comes to the point of how much chance and access she had into the base. Enough space to figure out what they were upto =/= in-depth analysis of all weapon technologies and construction techniques. Those are the sort of things you prefer hardware for anyway.

We already know that EDI didn't have the chance to grab all useful information: if she had, TIM would never have wanted to keep the base, because EDI was already sending him everything. The fact the TIM wants the base, even with all the data EDI is sending, is evidence that EDI doesn't have all or even most of what's valuable.

The basis for destroying the base is two fold for me.
1) I feel most of the tech we could gain is already something within our grasp, or we have access to it elsewhere.

Collector tech in and of itself has always been portrayed as reachable but beyond the current cutting edge: the five/ten year in advance rule. But what's far more potent is the actual Reaper technology on the base: more than the Collectors themselves, who are paced to be just a bit ahead, but actual centuries-ahead Reaper tech.

We know it's there. We killed it. And then TIM tells us there's more, and all the crew will agree that it was.

You can't dispute that there is major technology in the base unless you dispute the game's own position on the matter. It would be about as successful as arguing that the Citadel species actually love an all human council, or that sending human ships to rescue the fleeing Council actually boosted your chances against Sovereign: you can argue it as much as you want, but the game said differently.

2) The Collectors are just tools, a screw driver can not drive a screw unless you pick it up and use it. This much is clear about the Collectors, "in this case, the Collectors provide the labor."

What does that have to do with any benefit in the base? If the Collectors are just the labor, that would imply the knowledge present there is separate from them and even more accessible.

If the collectors are just tools, why should their base be any different? It's simply a physical asset instead of a labor asset to the Reapers. Who's to say the Collectors didn't work on a need to know basis?

Spoiler:

TIM says nothing about tech for sure, so I don't know how I am mis-interpretting the game. "Who knows what information is burried there!" "Think of the potential!"

What solid evidence of technology is in this clip? Your statement that "the game" positions the Collector base to hold a lot of tech is not quite right. The character TIM has that position, and you can dispute that clip all you want.

Modifié par Crespire, 02 août 2010 - 05:13 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

All i see in this thread is bunch of BLIND people lured by promise of something what can't even be here and absolute ridiculous overconfidence and arrogance that humans will be able to achieve something what THOUSAND Prothean scientists hidden on Illos were unable to do aka understand how reapers are build.

And dean in matter of fact it's YOU who are all time WRONG in every single aspect.

GOOD DAY SIR!

Good argument. The Protheans didn't have near as much information on the Reapers as we did now. We caught a Reaper in development. The Protheans never had an opportunity like we have now. Also, when you make sweeping statements disrespecting another's arguments, use correct grammar.

[smudboy]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

All i see in this thread is bunch of BLIND people lured by promise of something what can't even be here and absolute ridiculous overconfidence and arrogance that humans will be able to achieve something what THOUSAND Prothean scientists hidden on Illos were unable to do aka understand how reapers are build.

And dean in matter of fact it's YOU who are all time WRONG in every single aspect.

GOOD DAY... whoever you are.

Next time chill before having an argument, or...at least replying.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

All i see in this thread is bunch of BLIND people lured by promise of something what can't even be here

Can't? Can't is a pretty strong word. Why can't there be advanced technology in the Collector Base?

Reasons why there can't, mind you. Not hypothesis that there isn't, but why there can not.

and absolute ridiculous overconfidence and arrogance that humans will be able to achieve something what THOUSAND Prothean scientists hidden on Illos were unable to do aka understand how reapers are build.

...Prothean scientists never tried to build Reapers in the first place, let alone had a baby Reaper corpse or a Reaper construction facility to make one. So, in a race between two people going in entirely different directions and in which one person has a multi mile headstart and a car, there shouldn't be some surprise that one person is likely to make it to a specific point before the other (who, again, isn't even trying to go there).

Moreover, Protheans weren't inherently more advanced and wiser than us in the first place. That was the impression we were given in ME1 until we learned that they, to, were in the same situation and level as us and that all of us were working with the Reaper tidbits.

About the only Prothean innovation (besides their beacons, which are a physiological difference more than anything else) was in the Conduit. Which isn't so much beyond our technology to attempt to crack so much as beyond our (Asari) political will and interest to.

And dean in matter of fact it's YOU who are all time WRONG in every single aspect.

GOOD DAY SIR!

Ma'am

[Dean_the_Young]

Crespire wrote...
If the collectors are just tools, why should their base be any different? It's simply a physical asset instead of a labor asset to the Reapers. Who's to say the Collectors didn't work on a need to know basis?

Besides that we know that the Collectors use computer systems for research data storage? The hardware alone is something you can study for benefit.

TIM says nothing about tech for sure, so I don't know how I am mis-interpretting the game. "Who knows what information is burried there!" "Think of the potential!"

It was pretty obvious the base had tech, even if we didn't know what all of it was. It was a known unknown: we know it's there, we just don't know what exactly it is. It's no different from looking at a farway jungle island with lush vegetation and going 'think of what plants may be there': we don't know all of what's on that island, but we know the island is there and it has plants.

What solid evidence of technology is in this clip? Your statement that "the game" positions the Collector base to hold a lot of tech is not quite right. The character TIM has that position, and you can dispute that clip all you want.

Seconds 6 to 17.

You know, the Reaper. The beginner phase which was intended to get even bigger, the technology of which is said to be hundreds (or thousands) of years beyond our own.

Literally the first thing shown in the clip. Don't even have to watch for a half minute. And that's ignorring the rest of the game, and the evidences of advanced Collector technology.