3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

People who don't see why to destroy it are so bone-headed... Even a movie as un-philosophical and sophmoric as Iron Man demonstrates the consequence of giving madmen the keys to advanced technology, especially weapons.

Enjoy your moral high ground while it lasts. I shall have the last laugh as I save my galaxy from the Reapers and you end up being destroyed! I shall have some of it now... Muahahahaha! Muahahaha!

Well if I had the luxury of actually doing what I wanted, I would spend all my efforts cryo freezing people into sleeper ships and sending off colony ships to distant galaxies away from the Reapers altogether!

What about the other trillion left behind? just use them as a distraction?

[Dean_the_Young]

ShadyKat wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

harry dread wrote...

the main reason i destroyed it was something legion said. geth want to build a future, the heretics wanted the old machines to give them one.
would mankind as a whole be mature enough to use that tech wisely? unlikely. would cerberus? hell no.
 anyway, giving reaper tech to cerberus would be like giving a loaded gun to a child, standing back and seeing what happens. either they'd shoot themselves, or shoot u. neither option is good.

Or they don't shoot anyone. Like me.

If Cerberus shoots itself in the foot, it only hurts itself. If it shoots someone else, the most dangerous bullets will go down range at the Reapers.

So you are saying kids with guns are ok?

I certainly didn't kill myself or anyone else with them, nor did anyone I knew.

Kids with gun is a safety issue: it's a needless risk that deserves to be mitigated, much like not having a seatbelt on. It is not a guaranteed avenue of disaster, nor should it be used as one (because, again, it isn't).

I have plenty of reasons why I'd prefer kids not to have guns in the first place, but those are dependent on the assumed alternatives, such as a lack of need in the first place and the alternatives of adult supervision. Not an assumption that kids and guns automatically leads to death.

The suggestion was used that giving the base to Cerberus would be like giving guns to kids. But, in the situation where there are no adults around and a rape/rob/pillage/murder gang was heading over to the house were a bunch of kids were holed up, I would give them guns rather than let them try and set up impromptu defenses worthy of a Home Alone movie.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

People who don't see why to destroy it are so bone-headed... Even a movie as un-philosophical and sophmoric as Iron Man demonstrates the consequence of giving madmen the keys to advanced technology, especially weapons.

Enjoy your moral high ground while it lasts. I shall have the last laugh as I save my galaxy from the Reapers and you end up being destroyed! I shall have some of it now... Muahahahaha! Muahahaha!

Well if I had the luxury of actually doing what I wanted, I would spend all my efforts cryo freezing people into sleeper ships and sending off colony ships to distant galaxies away from the Reapers altogether!

What about the other trillion left behind? just use them as a distraction?

Who cares about them? They're only people. Heck, most of them are alien anyway, so no loss there.


[/rampant bigotry]

[Reptilian Rob]

Do you really want TIM to acquire that station? Think about it.

[Pacifien]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Do you really want TIM to acquire that station? Think about it.

Sometimes I feel like a debate is doomed to cycle for eternity.

I mean, I don't want the Illusive Man to get the base, but I do know that those who would give it to him have certainly thought about it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Do you really want TIM to acquire that station? Think about it.

I prefer TIM acquiring that station over millions, possibly billions upto entire galactic extinction, if he doesn't.

Priorities, you know?

[Reptilian Rob]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Do you really want TIM to acquire that station? Think about it.

I prefer TIM acquiring that station over millions, possibly billions upto entire galactic extinction, if he doesn't.

Priorities, you know?

I know where you're coming from, but I just don't trust TIM with Reaper tech. Next thing you know he'll be vaporizing everything not human. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Because he has a reputation for genocide and enslaving known sentients?

[spacehamsterZH]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I prefer TIM acquiring that station over millions, possibly billions upto entire galactic extinction, if he doesn't.

Who's to say he's going to use it to prevent that? Cerberus can't be trusted, so I'd rather blow up the Collector base than let them have it. What if they discover a way to, say, evacuate the human race into darkspace and let the Reapers wipe out all non-human organic life in the galaxy? Or just save themselves and their corporate headquarters?

[Bluko]

Pacifien wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Do you really want TIM to acquire that station? Think about it.

Sometimes I feel like a debate is doomed to cycle for eternity.

I mean, I don't want the Illusive Man to get the base, but I do know that those who would give it to him have certainly thought about it.

Sovereign: "The cycle cannot be broken."

I usually stay away from these threads since the regurgitation of the same opinions over and over again gives me a headache.

My 2 cents on keeping the base is T.I.M. either builds a new Human Reaper from Cerberus lackies which...

A) Backfires with T.I.M. and or new Reaper falling under Reaper control
Builds a Reaper that is on our side, but eventually establishes Cerberus as the dominant regime of the Galaxy

Or T.I.M. doesn't/isn't able to build a Reaper and merely acquires Reaper tech which...

A) Backfires again and ends up with T.I.M. being indoctrinated seeing as how the Collector Base was used to control an entire species through Indoctrination
Reaper tech is useful, but Cerberus still remains a Terrorist organization and may try to stab the other races in the back at some point with their superior technology

I'm sorry I just don't ever see T.I.M. ever holding hands with the Asari and Turians under a beautiful rainbow as everyone unites to defeat the Reapers. If anything I see him devising a trap while we're fighting the Reapers so he becomes supreme ruler afterwards.

I just get the feeling no matter what you did somehow T.I.M. will salvage the Human Reaper Larva and eventually end up recreating the Reapers as the dark twist at the end of ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I prefer TIM acquiring that station over millions, possibly billions upto entire galactic extinction, if he doesn't.

Who's to say he's going to use it to prevent that?

If the Reapers win, Humanity loses. Cerberus is a group dedicated to human survival and advancement. Standing by and doing nothing contradicts Cerberus's organizational goal, it's history of action (that little saga called Mass Effect 2), and all depictions of it's leader. TIM's sincerity are about the one thing that can't really be questioned: his judgement, his morality, his methods, but never his intent.

Cerberus can't be trusted, so I'd rather blow up the Collector base than let them have it. What if they discover a way to, say, evacuate the human race into darkspace and let the Reapers wipe out all non-human organic life in the galaxy?

Cerberus. The group with maybe two hundred agents at any time. Is going to abduct the entire human race, willing and not, and move it all to a nubulous piece of safety.

Besides the mind blowing stupidity in the impossiblitiy alone, why are you taking the position that the human species assured survival is a bad thing? 

Or just save themselves and their corporate headquarters?

If they use the great powers of the Collector Base to just save themselves, then they aren't doing much harm to others now, are they?

Of course, there's the minor detail that Cerberus has never been depicted as simply a corporate cabal ala Noveria.

[DPSSOC]

Bluko wrote...

I'm sorry I just don't ever see T.I.M. ever holding hands with the Asari and Turians under a beautiful rainbow as everyone unites to defeat the Reapers. If anything I see him devising a trap while we're fighting the Reapers so he becomes supreme ruler afterwards.

This is certainly a justifiable concern, he makes it clear that human preservation and advancement are top of his priorities list but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  If Cerberus get's Reaper tech and advances it forces the Turians, Salarians, and Asari to adapt and evolve beyond the technology they've been relying on for millenia.  The Council races have grown stagnant from lack of conflict and they need a swift kick in the rear to get going and improve themselves.  Cerberus is that swift kick.

Now I have no doubt that TIM will use the base solely to benefit Cerberus, I have no doubt that he'll manage it badly, I have little doubt that people will die needlessly, but if we can get anything of use out of that base it's better than where we are right now.  When disaster strikes you can stand still or pick a direction and run, both carry risks but only one gets you anywhere.


Note: In the event of a disaster picking a direction and simply running flat out is probably not the best option, please consult your local fire department, or internet, for advice on what to do in the event of various disasters (natural or otherwise).

[DuffyMJ]

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

People who don't see why to destroy it are so bone-headed... Even a movie as un-philosophical and sophmoric as Iron Man demonstrates the consequence of giving madmen the keys to advanced technology, especially weapons.

Enjoy your moral high ground while it lasts. I shall have the last laugh as I save my galaxy from the Reapers and you end up being destroyed! I shall have some of it now... Muahahahaha! Muahahaha!

Well if I had the luxury of actually doing what I wanted, I would spend all my efforts cryo freezing people into sleeper ships and sending off colony ships to distant galaxies away from the Reapers altogether!

What about the other trillion left behind? just use them as a distraction?

Do you hold that against the Ilos survivors as well...?

Shandepared wrote...

Reaching another galaxy will require entirely new technology that is currently way beyond anyone's means.

Says who?  Current ME tech can survive 50,000 years of passive use (Ilos VI system) and can do conventional FTL which is more than enough time to make it to Andromeda or an extragalactic star system of some sort.  The idea of "dark space" isn't entirely true, there are all those in the various streams which researchers using SDSS data have found - those stripped from globular clusters and satellite galaxies, the streams which appear to have no parents, and the thousands of just plain old stars that are out there, beyond the usual boundary of the Milky Way.

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 06 juin 2010 - 07:06 .

[DuffyMJ]

Opinions are a dime a dozen if you ask me, and having moral standards and laws are really the only measurable demarkations we can have on whether a decision is right or wrong.  The vast majority of human begins on planet Earth fall into a normal shaped curve on how they feel about laws.  Some very few are Wyatt Earps.  Some very few are anarchist ruthless people.  But in the end, the vast bulk of us generally respect and acknowledge the legitimacy of the law -- the social consensus.  In ME, the general consensus is that blowing up the base was the right thing to do.  Is some of that due to the influence of the blue hilight thingy and heaven-above-bioware-opinion on what good is? probably -- but its stupid to assume most gamers are that dumb.  The para/ren choices arent there to be a railroad track, they're really more like prompts to make you think and exercise your own choice.  Unless you are a 100% ren 100% para decision maker, you very likely paused at base decision for a long time before deciding -- i know i did!

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 06 juin 2010 - 07:27 .

[Sharn01]

People put to much thought into all this. While you can debate the merits of both sides of the decision, and each sides does have merits, its pointless.

Try to think in the context of the game, Shep cant hit the pause button and go grab a soda while s/he tries to decide what to do, you have a matter of seconds before so many collectors show up that not even Shep will be a match for them, make your decision right now, and at the time there really isnt going to be much more on your mind then whether or not you trust TIM.

Modifié par Sharn01, 06 juin 2010 - 10:23 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Sharn01 wrote...

People put to much thought into all this. While you can debate the merits of both sides of the decision and each sides merits, which both sides have, its pointless.

Try to think in the context of the game, Shep cant hit the pause button and go grab a soda while s/he tries to decide what to do, you have a matter of seconds before so many collectors show up that not even Shep will be a match for them, make your decision right now, and at the time there really isnt going to be much more on your mind then whether or not you trust TIM.

Every time I close my eyes and imagine myself in that situation, I end up getting the hell out of there and destroying the base. In any case, that's what my Paragon Shepard did. However, my female Renegade does not approve.

[Asheer_Khan]

Using technology against creators of such technology is really "brilliant" idea...

We will never be able to fully understand (unless devs will implement ID 4 syndrome (cracking highly complicated alien code using Apple laptop) to ME 3) and recreated anything reaper related without too heavy risk of "Order 66 factor".

Even Tanix cannon is only based on reaper tech not pure reaper tech and that's quite big difference.
We can't even be 100% sure about EDI's loyalty to Shepard and Normandy crew when will come to final showdown.
She might think that she can repel any reaper cyber attacks but what if there is some sort kill switch burried deep within EDI's programing which could be activated by Harbinger and about which she have not a slightest idea?

I would let this station intact if would have 1000% assurance that not only Cerberus but every scientific groups from whole Citadel space would have EQUAL access to station data banks... but since that's not an option...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 06 juin 2010 - 11:22 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Using technology against creators of such technology is really "brilliant" idea...

We will never be able to fully understand (unless devs will implement ID 4 syndrome (cracking highly complicated alien code using Apple laptop) to ME 3) and recreated anything reaper related without too heavy risk of "Order 66 factor".

Even Tanix cannon is only based on reaper tech not pure reaper tech and that's quite big difference.
We can't even be 100% sure about EDI's loyalty to Shepard and Normandy crew when will come to final showdown.
She might think that she can repel any reaper cyber attacks but what if there is some sort kill switch burried deep within EDI's programing which could be activated by Harbinger and about which she have not a slightest idea?

I would let this station intact if would have 1000% assurance that not only Cerberus but every scientific groups from whole Citadel space would have EQUAL access to station data banks... but since that's not an option...

'thank you", commander shepard in activating Legion scene's voice.. I'd only keep it if it was recommended by the Alliance.

[Erinlana]

I destroyed it in myfirst me2 playthrough but kept it in my renegade playthrough , so it will be interesting to see what the outcome is for both choices

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Using technology against creators of such technology is really "brilliant" idea...

Yeah the Sioux felt really silly when they tried using muskets on the white man only to discover he was immune to bullets.

Haven't those "muskets" didn't brought disaster to Siox at the end anyway?

[Vaenier]

Sharn01 wrote...

People put to much thought into all this. While you can debate the merits of both sides of the decision, and each sides does have merits, its pointless.

Try to think in the context of the game, Shep cant hit the pause button and go grab a soda while s/he tries to decide what to do, you have a matter of seconds before so many collectors show up that not even Shep will be a match for them, make your decision right now, and at the time there really isnt going to be much more on your mind then whether or not you trust TIM.

Then you should always save the collector base. It is not a decision you should be making there on the spot. First you wipe out the collectors, then you decide wether you want to hand over the base to tim. so many irational implusive people destroy it on the spot or metagame it. its quite sad.

[Wildecker]

Vaenier wrote...
Then you should always save the collector base. It is not a decision you should be making there on the spot. First you wipe out the collectors, then you decide wether you want to hand over the base to tim. so many irational implusive people destroy it on the spot or metagame it. its quite sad.

On the spot. You are pretty confident that you can overlaod the base power plant for a devastating explosion.
But somehow Mr. TIM thinks that the very same powerplant can be set to not explode but instead send out a pulse of lethal radiation that is guaranteed to wipe out the Collectors while leaving their stuff and their databases behind, unharmed and ready to use.

When exactly did he learn so much about Collector technology and physiology?
Or is this just an "educated guess" derived from wishful thinking?

Returning to that base on the assumption it's cleansed and secure and then finding yourself at the business end of a few thousand Collector assault rifles, with the last words in your earpiece an "Oops. This  should have worked out differently!" from TIM ... yeah, we did a good job.

Modifié par Wildecker, 06 juin 2010 - 01:49 .