Last time I checked, messing around with reaper tech never ends well, just look at what happened to the Cerberus operatives aboard the derelict reaper.
Ok, so what? Now we know that there is still the possibility of indoctrination from a reaper that has been supposedly dead for a long time. We have learned from that.
ckriley wrote...
I was mostly referring to how it could be a trap. (Insert Ackbar meme here). Kind of like the Reaper IFF situation. EDI installed it, and it sent out a signal to the Collectors letting them know the Normandy's position. And there's always the possibility that the Reapers wanted Shepard to get to the Collector base and try to use Reaper technology against the Reapers.
However, I will say this, in real life if something like this were to happen, we would have absolutely kept the base. Not to Godwin this thread, but the US already did something like this at the end of WWII. There were many **** labs and **** scientists that we simply took over after the war and made them American labs instead of destroying them completely.
But in a fantasy world of a video game where there are clear good and evil choices, I chose the former.
First of all, IFF's are designed for broadcasting signals that allow other entities to identify whatever is using the IFF. Secondly an IFF like that would probably be designed with anti-theft measures, so that is not exactly surprising.
There is also quite the difference between using reaper technology as is, and building our own stuff based on what information we get from them. You seem to be suggesting that if I build a laser gun based off of reaper technology, that they can somehow control it, even though it has absolutely no wireless technology and is only designed to shoot lasers when I pull the trigger.
However, if you think that suddenly means anything based off of reaper technology can be controlled through remote, signals, even stuff that has no wireless connections, then you lack the understanding of some basic concepts, and I don't know what to say. Basically I think you've generalized "reaper technology" without actually thinking about what you're talking about.
Also, about your choices in a fantasy world, you're clearly metagaming if you'd keep the base in real life but not in the game because of arbitrary labels of good and evil that aren't even used in the game.
ckriley wrote...
They actually did do that and it's been part of ther endless cycle of destruction and creation for eons. The only difference was, this time when the Reapers signaled the Keepers to open up the Citadel Mass Relay, the Protheans had a counterprogram in place that blocked the signal. If it wasn't for that, we'd all be wiped out or indoctrinated. And by the way, Indoctrination is just another example of this so-called magic you guys are referring to. If they can take over the consciousness of an entire species, then why is sending out a simple signal to reprogram THEIR OWN FREAKING TECHNOLOGY so outside the realm of possibility?
It is outside the realm of possibility because we would not be simply taking crap out of the collector base and sticking it on our ships or anything. We would be using the information in the base to build our own technology. You need to make a distinction.
Last time I checked, messing around with reaper tech never ends well, just look at what happened to the Cerberus operatives aboard the derelict reaper.
Then you need to check again.
No, really, I suggest you do. You can't get a perfect Suicide Mission without relying on no less than three examples of Reaper technology.
Last time I checked, messing around with reaper tech never ends well, just look at what happened to the Cerberus operatives aboard the derelict reaper.
Then you need to check again.
No, really, I suggest you do. You can't get a perfect Suicide Mission without relying on no less than three examples of Reaper technology.
You also get through with just as many normal pieces of tech as well.
If they could magically reprogram their own technology, it also begs the question why they wouldn't send a signal to reprogram current galactic technology.
Since it is, you know, technology they knew, mastered, and set out for civilizations to get eons before Humanity was an embryo.
They actually did do that and it's been part of ther endless cycle of destruction and creation for eons. The only difference was, this time when the Reapers signaled the Keepers to open up the Citadel Mass Relay, the Protheans had a counterprogram in place that blocked the signal. If it wasn't for that, we'd all be wiped out or indoctrinated. And by the way, Indoctrination is just another example of this so-called magic you guys are referring to. If they can take over the consciousness of an entire species, then why is sending out a simple signal to reprogram THEIR OWN FREAKING TECHNOLOGY so outside the realm of possibility?
Last time I checked, messing around with reaper tech never ends well, just look at what happened to the Cerberus operatives aboard the derelict reaper.
Then you need to check again.
No, really, I suggest you do. You can't get a perfect Suicide Mission without relying on no less than three examples of Reaper technology.
You also get through with just as many normal pieces of tech as well.
And this is relevant to the issue of whether Reaper tech is automatic failure... how?
And how do you think we could not know how to use tech that we build using information gained from the collector base? Other than indoctrination, what have we seen the reapers or their agents do that is all that different from what we can already do? It's not hard to figure out how to use more advanced offensive and defensive technologies the right way, so I don't see where you're coming from.[/quote]
You're misreading what I'm saying. When I say using the tech in the right way I don't mean using it correctly - as in logistics-wise - I mean using it in the right way morally.[/quote]Using it the right way morally? Defeating the reapers is of the highest priority. Stuff like that can wait until after they're dead. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
They're not going to share it, I guarantee you.[/quote]You can guarantee all you want, it doesn't make what you're suggesting logical. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
[quote]Yea and you don't beat those odds by being scared of researching their technology because they're so powerful or because it might be risky. I find it ridiculous that some people claim the collector base is too dangerous or something as if we can afford to tip-toe around the situation in the face of imminent galactic genocide.[/quote]
Again, you don't seem to be reading my posts in their entirety - I clearly stated in my post that I chose to keep the base. I stand by that choice aswell so I'm not disagreeing with you, what I'm disagreeing with is the notion that there's no risk involved because there's a huge one involved: Cerberus. If I was handing that base over to the Council - as inept as they can be - I'd feel alot more secure in that decision than handing it over to TIM because at least with the Council there is a consensus between multiple species not just one pro-human vigilante.[/quote] Of course giving it to Cerberus is risky, but not nearly as risky as destroying the base in the hope that some other way is found to stop the reapers. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
[quote]I think you're letting your opinion of TIM cloud your judgement if you think he is going to keep everything to himself in the face of the reaper threat. That is too illogical to consider.[/quote]
It doesn't make sense for Cerberus to reliquish that base to the Alliance, quite simply. Now, if you're one of those people of the belief that Cerberus is still a splinter cell of the Alliance rather than a rogue organization then I can see your point, but I personally think that while there is undoubtedly still some official connection between the two, Cerberus still has its very own clearly set out agenda. In addition, they don't find the Alliance particularly competent so that's another reason I can't see them giving its resources out.[/quote]It makes perfect sense for reasons I have explained repeatedly. In the case of a direct ship-to-ship confrontation with the reapers, the smart thing for TIM to do would be to have distributed the more advanced offensive and defensive technologies to the Alliance so that they can upgrade their fleets. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
There's a consistent theme throughout the story aswell that when you use another's operations to "spear-head" yourselves you become vulnerable, for example using the Mass Relays, the Citadel and giving the Krogan's advanced technology all caused problems. Now note, this isn't the same as reverse engineering superior technology and constructing your own because that gives you an understanding of what you're doing.
The instances of this in ME worked out fine: the Protheans building their own Mass Relay on Ilos, The Tharix Cannon etc. The issue with the Collector Base is that it's already there. It'll allow for reverse engineering of some of the tech but the base is still a pre-constructed entity like the Citadel.[/quote] Yes, the base being a pre-constructed entity involves risk, but someone is just going to have to deal with it. You don't get very far in life by not taking risks. The potential gains far outweigh the risks in this case. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
The Krogan is obvious, heh. While I sympathise with their plight a single trip to Tuchunka was enough to demonstrate why they were a seriously dangerous species. They're essentially the Mandalorians of Mass Effect. You have to try and look at Krogan in general - not just Wrex, who I see as an exceptional Krogan - and as a species they're in no way ready to be involved in galactic politics I mean Christ.
Having said that, I still chose to keep the genophage cure information from Mordin's loyalty quest because I don't fully agree with what was done to them but I can see it from the Council's side too because they're a serious threat due to their nature.
As for the Quarians, my personal belief here is simply that because they're so nomadic it's hard for them to have any direct political affiliation with something static like a Council. Perhaps once/if they reclaim their homeworld they'll be instated. [/quote]If the Council or other species were so interested in equal coexistence for everyone they'd be trying to find a way to turn the whole krogan situation around instead of letting them rot away under the effects of the genophage. Wrex seems to be doing a good job of trying to turn things around.
As for the quarians, that is nonsense, imho. FTL communication works just fine, and there is no reason why an embassy couldn't be set up if the Council would allow it. But the main point here is that the quarians were booted out of the Citadel, the Council wants nothing to do with them after the incident with the geth. I'm sure you must know the story of how the quarians attempted to settle a planet but the Council threatened to bombard their settlements from orbit because the quarians didn't follow proper procedure?. They subsequently gave the planet to the elcor. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
[quote]As far as I'm concerned, TIM is right to want humanity to carry the biggest stick so that other races don't try to elevate themselves at our expense. And with the collector base, our rise to the top won't even need to involve the other races.[/quote]
You see, I agree with you here on the overall point, but I don't agree that TIM just wants us to carry the biggest stick. Why? On my ME2 game the Council is gone, I sacrficed them, and therefore humanity is already carrying the biggest stick and yet he's still pushing for more. All you need to do is examine his dialogue throughout and you'll see his agendas interwoven. A great example is when you plant the bomb in the Collector Base he says "You've acquired the base" - he doesn't say you've completed your mission or you've thwarted the Collectors etc. but specifically acquired the base - it was his objective all along. Things like this, little hints the dialogue, are always important in well written literature and with TIM there are many of them.[/quote]As TIM says at the beginning of Ascension, seizing power is much easier than holding onto it. He knows full well that opinion would turn against the Alliance after a few years, which is why a bigger stick is necessary. But more to the point: margin of safety.
Also, suggesting that acquiring the base was TIM's objective all along is ridiculous. He obviously didn't find out about the base until the Normandy went through the relay and discovered it. I think you're looking too much into the dialogue. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
[quote]While I might disagree with quite a few of Cerberus's methods, I don't disagree with their goal.[/quote]
The means is just as important as the end. Sometimes one goes up in priority more than the other, like - for example - during a war such as what we face now in ME2. However, even when the end becomes more important than the means that doesn't equate to the means being irrelevant because it is very important. It's this kind of thinking that has seen influential people of the past become corrupt because it's like a domino effect: the longer you follow that belief, the more depraved your morality becomes until eventually it's more or less gone.[/quote]I never said the means were irrelevant. But how relevant they are is up for debate. [quote]Myrmedus wrote...
[quote]What I trust is that TIM understands the threat of the reapers and will not do something stupid like try to keep all of the technology in the hands of Cerberus who clearly don't have the manpower to do anything significant with it if the reaper issue comes down to a ship-to-ship war. I certainly don't take his word as gospel, but I expect him to be intelligent enough to know what courses of action are stupid. For Cerberus to keep the technology for itself, or for TIM to want to rule the galaxy is quite stupid.[/quote]
Again, inspect the dialogue. Also, look at TIM's expressions during the game. When you 'acquire' the Collector Base and he says "...but keep the technology intact", he makes this fist-clenching animation that is customary of villains (found here: ): a prime example from elsewhere is when Darth Vader tells Luke Skywalker he's his father (found here: www.youtube.com/watch)
Another example is when he grins deviously after your meeting with him where he has the Collector Base.
When it comes to literature these are all clues the writers put in. They're moments of weakness from TIM where he gives away his intentions.
I'm not saying he doesn't understand the threat of the Reapers, because he sure as hell does, but I also believe that if he can use the conflict as a proxy war to gain power on the galactic stage he certainly will. And I don't believe he will share the tech with the Alliance officially either...I believe Cerberus are bigger than we're lead to believe.[/quote]First of all, no amount of pointing to cinematic effects is going to convince me of anything. Secondly, stopping the reapers is more important than anything else, which is why the possibility that he'll use the the technology as you're suggesting is an acceptable risk.
And of course they wont share the tech officially. He'll just have some of his front companies "invent" it or something similar.
I also have no reason to disbelieve what EDI has said about the number of agents and operatives in Cerberus.
I think you guys are reading way much into my statement about the Reapers being able to reprogram their own technology. I wasn't just talking about laser guns. And you know that. But you're just engaging in semantics.
I think you guys are reading way much into my statement about the Reapers being able to reprogram their own technology. I wasn't just talking about laser guns. And you know that. But you're just engaging in semantics.
Instead of trying to blame me for taking advantage of your ambiguity, why don't you try being more specific. Explain how technology based on reaper technology could be controlled by the reapers as you seem to be suggesting.
Without ignoring that all galactic technology is effectively based on Reaper technology, and that the Reapers (through the medium of the Collectors) have proven to have full mastery of understanding of everything we develop before we develop it.
I think you guys are reading way much into my statement about the Reapers being able to reprogram their own technology. I wasn't just talking about laser guns. And you know that. But you're just engaging in semantics.
Instead of trying to blame me for taking advantage of your ambiguity, why don't you try being more specific. Explain how technology based on reaper technology could be controlled by the reapers as you seem to be suggesting.
First of all, that was only a small part of my argument if you go back and read my post. The bigger issue I had with keeping the base had more to do with TIM and Cerberus. But as far as the Reaper tech goes, this is what I meant: You create an entire war machine based on an alien technology that you know next to nothing about. An alien technology developed by your enemies, who are far more advanced than you.
When that enemy comes calling, it's possible that they are able to remotely upload some sort of virus or something into the software systems of your ships and mecha that render them useless because you don't know enough about the technology to safeguard against it. Is it unlikely? Sure it is. But it's just another way of saying I don't trust all this alien technology. And that's really the bottom line.
But again, my bigger issues were with Cerberus itself.
The idea that the Reapers will be able to take advantage of the tech is obvious: they know more about it than we do. The Citadel gambit in ME1 is a perfect example of how you can be taken for a fool if you use something you don't know as much about as your enemy. There can easily be algorithms used in the tech that the Reapers know how to disable or possibly even corrupt.
The idea that the Reapers will be able to take advantage of the tech is obvious: they know more about it than we do. The Citadel gambit in ME1 is a perfect example of how you can be taken for a fool if you use something you don't know as much about as your enemy. There can easily be algorithms used in the tech that the Reapers know how to disable or possibly even corrupt.
What? How can a Reaper take advantage of the Thanix Cannon, a repurposed type of technology, which is something they've never seen before? While it's a weapon being used to destroy a Reaper?
What Citadel gambit?
What...would this algorithm do exactly? So a software/virus attack...would...somehow...hack the Thanix Cannon? Is that your general understanding of Reapers "knowing more", that they could hack anything that's based on their technology? I seem to recall an entire space station created by the Reapers that required a certain Turian that had to physically be in the station for something to operate...and then another alien race uploading a virus which completely prevented the entire station for being used by its creators...
Myrmedus, they also know about our own tech than we do, so that's not even a distinction. The Collectors entire trading principle was that they knew exactly what to offer us before the rest of the galaxy would develop it.
You can't make an argument on the basis of 'they understand advanced technology' and then play blind to the fact that, as a consequence, they will also understand less advanced technology.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 août 2010 - 12:43 .
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote... And how do you think we could not know how to use tech that we build using information gained from the collector base? Other than indoctrination, what have we seen the reapers or their agents do that is all that different from what we can already do? It's not hard to figure out how to use more advanced offensive and defensive technologies the right way, so I don't see where you're coming from.[/quote]
That's the exactly problem: we haven't seen the Reapers do -anything- yet. We've seen one Reaper, that's it. We know very little of what we're up against and yet we're dabbling into their domain of technology. We'll be able to use it just fine, sure, but because we haven't developed it from scratch, seen errors and issues with it as it's developed, iterated it through numerous design upgrades etc. we're not as familiar with its drawbacks. In fact, our subjective position in the story is essentially: "Wow, look at this tech, it's AMAZING" - right now we're drooling at how good the tech is which doesn't put us in the best position to be decoding its weaknesses.
I think you seem to be forgetting the fact that they are MILLIONS of years old and have apparently beaten species that even have the power to 'scar planets'. Imagine where humanity would be technologically millions of years from now (if we're still alive) - we'd be gods for Christ's sakes!
I just believe we don't know enough about what we're fighting and what we're dabbling in for this to turn out as well as people may believe; I just hope my choice is for the best in the end.
[quote]Using it the right way morally? Defeating the reapers is of the highest priority. Stuff like that can wait until after they're dead.[/quote]
It is, but I don't think that's all TIM is looking to use it for.
[quote]You can guarantee all you want, it doesn't make what you're suggesting logical.[/quote]
It is if your objective is more than just holding off the Reapers (TIM). The whole of ME2 is a big powerplay, so if he's doing it in ME2 I see no reason why that'll change in ME3.
[quote]Of course giving it to Cerberus is risky, but not nearly as risky as destroying the base in the hope that some other way is found to stop the reapers.[/quote]
Which is why I kept the base, however the person I responded to originally in this thread was acting as though there was no risk involved hence why I argued with him .
[quote]It makes perfect sense for reasons I have explained repeatedly. In the case of a direct ship-to-ship confrontation with the reapers, the smart thing for TIM to do would be to have distributed the more advanced offensive and defensive technologies to the Alliance so that they can upgrade their fleets.[/quote]
That's your opinion but not necessarily the character's IMO. TIM doesn't strike me as the co-operative type because co-operation requires honesty and trust not manipulation. He may allow some of it to drift to the Alliance but you can bet the "meat" of it will remain held by Cerberus.
[quote]If the Council or other species were so interested in equal coexistence for everyone they'd be trying to find a way to turn the whole krogan situation around instead of letting them rot away under the effects of the genophage. Wrex seems to be doing a good job of trying to turn things around.[/quote]
You can't turn a violent race into a benevolent race. Wrex is pretty much single-handedly keeping the Krogans in line, what happens when he eventually dies? You also can't base how you treat an entire race on their leader especially if their leader is such an exception.
[quote]As for the quarians, that is nonsense, imho. FTL communication works just fine, and there is no reason why an embassy couldn't be set up if the Council would allow it. But the main point here is that the quarians were booted out of the Citadel, the Council wants nothing to do with them after the incident with the geth. I'm sure you must know the story of how the quarians attempted to settle a planet but the Council threatened to bombard their settlements from orbit because the quarians didn't follow proper procedure?. They subsequently gave the planet to the elcor.[/quote]
It doesn't matter, we're not talking about communication, we're talking about whether a species that spends most of its time wandering and keeping themselves isolated from the rest of the races (for good reason, don't get me wrong) should have a seat in power.
I'm not saying the Council are all fine and dandy, and like I said they're actually dead in my ME2 (xD) but they're easier to gauge than TIM at least.
[quote]As TIM says at the beginning of Ascension, seizing power is much easier than holding onto it. He knows full well that opinion would turn against the Alliance after a few years, which is why a bigger stick is necessary. But more to the point: margin of safety.
Also, suggesting that acquiring the base was TIM's objective all along is ridiculous. He obviously didn't find out about the base until the Normandy went through the relay and discovered it. I think you're looking too much into the dialogue.[/quote]
Why did he obviously not find out about it? Where's your source or suggestion from the actual game? Sounds to me like you're just assuming. The only thing that hints at TIM not knowing is his apparent ignorance of it but we know that TIM is very good at keeping information withheld when it suits him (Collector Ship ambush?) - when it comes to well written scripts often looking into the dialogue profusely actually reaps (no pun intended!) clues because the writers put them there for a reason
[quote]I never said the means were irrelevant. But how relevant they are is up for debate.[/quote]
I didn't say you thought it was irrelevant, rather I believe TIM views it as irrelevant and there are a whole list of crimes he and his outfit have committed that support that belief.
[quote]First of all, no amount of pointing to cinematic effects is going to convince me of anything. Secondly, stopping the reapers is more important than anything else, which is why the possibility that he'll use the the technology as you're suggesting is an acceptable risk.[/quote]
No offence but I don't really care to convince you of anything, I'm simply stating my sources. Expressions are important and they're put in intentionally, it's called good screenplay.
[quote]I also have no reason to disbelieve what EDI has said about the number of agents and operatives in Cerberus.[/quote]
Neither do I, I do however have reason to believe she doesn't necessarily have all the information on Cerberus but only the amount of information TIM wants you to know. She's far too forthcoming for TIM to have given her all the info. Yes, we got around her block, but even then that was something TIM allowed for as her core AI was actually on the ship. TIM isn't stupid, if there's something he doesn't want you to know about Cerberus he won't put the key to that information on your own ship, heh.
Myrmedus, they also know about our own tech than we do, so that's not even a distinction. The Collectors entire trading principle was that they knew exactly what to offer us before the rest of the galaxy would develop it.
You can't make an argument on the basis of 'they understand advanced technology' and then play blind to the fact that, as a consequence, they will also understand less advanced technology.
I think this is different. Knowing roughly how our technology would develop, at what rates and at what rough dates we'd make certain breakthroughs etc. is just modelling - in fact futurists in real life do this all the time and with startling accuracy aswell.
Yes, they will understand less advanced technology, like you say, but you're assuming it'll all head down the same path. As an example, it seems the Protheans used alot of biomechanical technology which is vastly different from how the Council races have developed their tech which is more or less purely synthetic - tech goes down different paths (until you start using another's tech).
My point is that they probably understand all the technologies they've made over their existence and they know roughly when the species in the galaxy will hit certain technological "hotspots" because of deductive modelling (as they've seen it happen time and time again) but they don't necessarily know the ins and outs of something that Mordin develops in his lab, for example, and certainly not as well as actual tech they've clearly used for millions of years to repopulate their ranks. Knowledge is a relative quantity, not an absolute one, and I think relatively they'll know more about their very own working tech than stuff we develop purely on our own.
Myrmedus, they also know about our own tech than we do, so that's not even a distinction. The Collectors entire trading principle was that they knew exactly what to offer us before the rest of the galaxy would develop it.
You can't make an argument on the basis of 'they understand advanced technology' and then play blind to the fact that, as a consequence, they will also understand less advanced technology.
I think this is different. Knowing roughly how our technology would develop, at what rates and at what rough dates we'd make certain breakthroughs etc. is just modelling - in fact futurists in real life do this all the time and with startling accuracy aswell.
How does modling change anything about the fact the Reapers know our technology years before it is tentavily developed? The Collectors alone have spent the last thousands of years being 'just' a decade before the galactic curve, and we know that the Collectors don't think and discover for themselves.
Yes, they will understand less advanced technology, like you say, but you're assuming it'll all head down the same path. As an example, it seems the Protheans used alot of biomechanical technology which is vastly different from how the Council races have developed their tech which is more or less purely synthetic - tech does down different paths (until you start using another's tech).
Again, so what? The Reapers knew the Protheans back and forth. The Reapers dominated the Leviathan of Dis's creators. And the Reapers, through the Collectors, have proven to know exactly where our own tech is going... and that's without Sovereign or whichever other Reaper playing Vanguard and spying around.
None of those widely dispersed species, no matter how different, fell outside the 'Reaper lines of development' ™ span that you claim is so hackable, and now you intend to argue that the Reapers are ignorant about the very technology they've been leading us in for thousands of years?
My point is that they probably understand all the technologies they've made over their existence and they know roughly when the species in the galaxy will hit certain technological "hotspots" because of deductive modelling (as they've seen it happen time and time again) but they don't necessarily know the ins and outs of something that Mordin develops in his lab, for example, and certainly not as well as actual tech they've clearly used for millions of years to repopulate their ranks.
Congratulations: they've made our own technologies before we make them (the Collectors trading with the fringes before their tech becomes the galactic standard).
They know exactly what sort of lines of development the Council races and Protheans (which we all reverse engineered) have used. With the Collectors, they have proven to be knowledgeable of the five/ten years ahead of the curve for us as well.
The reason they can't know the ins and out of something Mordin has in his labs, even though they know the technology in and out, is because technology doesn't work like that. Knowing the ins and outs does not make you immune to the effects, or your countermeasures superb. Indeed, the smaller the tech gap, the harder it is to counter.
Using Reaper technology to make not-Reaper tech systems is no different than Mordin or anyone else using tech the Reapers know and understand to build things they then used against the Reapers. EDI became less, not more, hackable with the integration of Sovereign's parts. The Collector Base was more, not less, assaultable with the Reaper-tech of the Thannix canon.
Dean_the_Young wrote...How does modling change anything about the fact the Reapers know our technology years before it is tentavily developed? The Collectors alone have spent the last thousands of years being 'just' a decade before the galactic curve, and we know that the Collectors don't think and discover for themselves.
Yet their technology is still intrinsically different from our own. It's a decade before galactic technology yet completely different, which is my point about knowing the level of tech we have but not necessarily everything about it. I'm sure if they were able to "look" at it (I use that term loosely) they'd be able to do it just fine.
The reason modelling makes a difference is because I believe they simply model how the galactic societies develop and through that can tell what level of advancement they'll find desirable and understandable. That doesn't mean they know the ins and outs of the tech being used just the stages it's at.
Again, so what? The Reapers knew the Protheans back and forth. The Reapers dominated the Leviathan of Dis's creators. And the Reapers, through the Collectors, have proven to know exactly where our own tech is going... and that's without Sovereign or whichever other Reaper playing Vanguard and spying around.
Of course they did, they took those species out. They didn't necessarily know the Prothean tech before they assaulted them but likely just reaped their tech and hence found out about them.
None of those widely dispersed species, no matter how different, fell outside the 'Reaper lines of development' ™ span that you claim is so hackable, and now you intend to argue that the Reapers are ignorant about the very technology they've been leading us in for thousands of years?
All of those species were reaped, lol.
Congratulations: they've made our own technologies before we make them (the Collectors trading with the fringes before their tech becomes the galactic standard).
NONE of the Collector tech is galactic standard (as in, even 10 years from now) because none of our tech uses biomechanical means. In advancement, it's 10 years ahead, but in its nature and structure it's completely different. It's the difference between using a computer to do something or using the programmed bacteria that scientists have recently been dabbling in. They both essentally do the same thing and when they're at the same level of advancement they'll be just as 'useful' but they'll still both work in completely different ways with their own spin on everything, and just because I know the ins and outs of a computer doesn't mean I'll know how to operate the bacterial tech as well.
They know exactly what sort of lines of development the Council races and Protheans (which we all reverse engineered) have used. With the Collectors, they have proven to be knowledgeable of the five/ten years ahead of the curve for us as well.
If they knew this they wouldn't need to plant the Mass Relays or Citadel to channel our society and technological advancement.
I'm not saying they're entirely ignorant of our tech, of course not, but I don't see how they'd know it anywhere near as well as something that is PURELY their own tech. The framework, the systems, the resources used etc. are all preset at the Collector Base. It's like you using my PC and it needs to be fixed, I'll be better at fixing it because I know exactly how it works, where everything is etc. - I'm more familiar with it than you. However, when you use your own PC even though I know how this kind of PC will work etc. you'll still be better at using it and fixing it because you're more familiar with it than I am.
We're more familiar and more knowledgable about our own tech than they are, and vice versa in the case of the Collector Base.
I've always RP'd my Shepard as a (morally) neutral Alliance officer so that influences my decisions.
Anyways, I mostly blew it up to ****** off TIM; I had spent the entire game bucking his authority at every opportunity and letting him know that *I* was in charge.
Dean_the_Young wrote...How does modling change anything about the fact the Reapers know our technology years before it is tentavily developed? The Collectors alone have spent the last thousands of years being 'just' a decade before the galactic curve, and we know that the Collectors don't think and discover for themselves.
Yet their technology is still intrinsically different from our own. It's a decade before galactic technology yet completely different, which is my point about knowing the level of tech we have but not necessarily everything about it. I'm sure if they were able to "look" at it (I use that term loosely) they'd be able to do it just fine.
Then apply the same defense to what reverse engineered Reaper technology is: systems that the Reapers could understand if they could 'look' at it.
There's no innate difference between the two concepts. We use Reaper technology now in E-zero, mass effect fields, and the whole nine yards. They understand the technology better than us. It's distinctily counterintuitive that, if they can't magic-hack tech systems they know about that are highly primitive, they can magic-hack any system they didn't create that is less so.
You know, like EDI.
The reason modelling makes a difference is because I believe they simply model how the galactic societies develop and through that can tell what level of advancement they'll find desirable and understandable. That doesn't mean they know the ins and outs of the tech being used just the stages it's at.
Except the Collectors demonstrate that they indeed do know the ins and outs of the tech being used at whatever stage it is.
Of course they did, they took those species out. They didn't necessarily know the Prothean tech before they assaulted them but likely just reaped their tech and hence found out about them.
You're really going to argue that Sovereign/whoever else it was, having waited and watched fifty thousand years to determine the proper time/tech level to attack the Protheans, didn't know the Prothean technology in the galaxy.
All of those species were reaped, lol.
That fact works against you, not me. Those are the many species that didn't have a chance to get high-level technology: instead, they were wiped out no matter how varied their current-edge technology was, hence 'independently developed technology', not matter how exotic at this point, isn't going to fundamentally remake the technology we use. Sticking with current technology is not a military advantage against the Reapers.
NONE of the Collector tech is galactic standard (as in, even 10 years from now) because none of our tech uses biomechanical means. In advancement, it's 10 years ahead, but in its nature and structure it's completely different. It's the difference between using a computer to do something or using the programmed bacteria that scientists have recently been dabbling in. They both essentally do the same thing and when they're at the same level of advancement they'll be just as 'useful' but they'll still both work in completely different ways with their own spin on everything, and just because I know the ins and outs of a computer doesn't mean I'll know how to operate the bacterial tech as well.
Reread the lore then: the entire background of the Collectors amounts to 'make unique trades in exchange for advanced technology that will soon become galactic standard.' Targeting VI's, mass effect core configurations, and so on. Things that give a temporary but significant edge to those who make the deal.
If they knew this they wouldn't need to plant the Mass Relays or Citadel to channel our society and technological advancement.
Of course they would: the Collectors are just an accessory to the trap, not the Citadel itself. Depending on the answer to the question 'who Collected before the Collectors' (or who did the service before the Prothean slaves, if anyone), the Collectors may well be a new addition to the trap.
We're more familiar and more knowledgable about our own tech than they are, and vice versa in the case of the Collector Base.
Bullocks.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 août 2010 - 04:32 .
First of all, that was only a small part of my argument if you go back and read my post. The bigger issue I had with keeping the base had more to do with TIM and Cerberus. But as far as the Reaper tech goes, this is what I meant: You create an entire war machine based on an alien technology that you know next to nothing about. An alien technology developed by your enemies, who are far more advanced than you.
When that enemy comes calling, it's possible that they are able to remotely upload some sort of virus or something into the software systems of your ships and mecha that render them useless because you don't know enough about the technology to safeguard against it. Is it unlikely? Sure it is. But it's just another way of saying I don't trust all this alien technology. And that's really the bottom line.
But again, my bigger issues were with Cerberus itself.
Your argument doesn't make sense. You're claiming that we would know next to nothing about the technology we're building even though the blueprints are stashed in the collector base and we're building it ourselves instead of taking it from somewhere else.
I blew it up because it's a giant Reaper factory. Logic dictates that a creator must be more complex than its creation. Reapers are extremely dangerous, which leads me to believe Reaper factories are even more dangerous. If we can't even analyse a prehistoric derelict Reaper without being indoctrinated and huskinated then we have absolutely no chance with a facility that builds giant Terminatoreapers and feeds them human-flavoured baby food. It's just not worth the risk.
Plus I would never trust Cerberus with the base, just like I would never trust a pyromaniac with napalm.
I always destroy the base simply for the reason I do not trust cerberus and I do not trust TIM. Now if I was given the choice of who to give the the collector base to I would have given it to the alien council without hesitation and say you want proof here is your proof, explore take your time.
I blew it up because it's a giant Reaper factory. Logic dictates that a creator must be more complex than its creation.
Not necessarily, AI's exist after all, and complex does not necessarily mean better.
Voidlight wrote...
Reapers are extremely dangerous, which leads me to believe Reaper factories are even more dangerous. If we can't even analyse a prehistoric derelict Reaper without being indoctrinated and huskinated then we have absolutely no chance with a facility that builds giant Terminatoreapers and feeds them human-flavoured baby food. It's just not worth the risk.
Firstly, from what has been observed in the game, indoctrination is only possible through a reaper ship or a more direct influence as observed in Retribution. There is no evidence that the collector base can indoctrinate anyone.
And if you don't think it is worth the risk from an in-character perspective then you simply don't understand the magnitude of the threat you're facing.
Voidlight wrote...
Plus I would never trust Cerberus with the base, just like I would never trust a pyromaniac with napalm.
This reflects what I just previously mentioned. You're facing galactic extinction. There is not always a right or wrong answer (not that BioWare gives you that impression), sometimes you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut
the Reapers technology is what we already use as the current galactic edge, making the issure irrelevant to keeping the base, and © EDI, built with Reaper parts, is living proof that Reaper technology can trump Reaper cyberwarfare?
.
