3478 réponses à ce sujet

[ArchDemonXIII]

DaBigDragon wrote...

Not destroying the Collector Base would be like not stopping the **** Concentration Camps in World War II because we could "learn from" the methods and technologies used there.

Actually, you'd be surprised some of the medicinal advances we got from Joseph Mengele's "research". If I remember correctly, a lot of our knowledge of hypothermia came from his work. Saving Maelon's genophage data is a closer analogy.

Not that I'm saying you shouldn't destroy the base, more of a random trivia thing. 

[Caesar914]

You know why I keep the base for TIM? Cuz I want to fight the Reaper he makes with it!

[gi0m]

didymos1120 wrote...

gi0m wrote...

I chose to save it first. But what really disturbed me is this:


Fricking subliminal illusive man peeking over the human reaper.

It doesn't mean anything.   There's an overlay placed on the background in the upper right corner for every talking hologram in the game, and they follow the camera.  You normally don't see them because stuff in the foreground hides it. In this case, however, there's nothing outside that part of the roof, so you catch a glimpse of it as the camera pans past that little gap between sections.  That overlay in turn is created from the actual model of TIM that is physically present in the level.  He's hiding in a little black room waaaaay outside the chamber (click to enlarge):




In flycam mode, you can see these objects for any hologram in the game: the Council, Shep during conferences with TIM, the ads on the Citadel, etc.

Yeah maybe but... hum... he... huh... Ok...

I must say, I'm a little dissapointed that it's a bug But yeah, your agrument is irrefutable.

Damn, that looked too awesome to be true.



Anyway, I'm more looking for the story:
If you don't give the base to Cerberus, this ends here. They are done, and everybody runs in a flower field in slow motion.

If you give the base to Cerberus, who knows what'll happen? THIS is cool in terms of story.
And whatever it is, it's gonna rock in terms of story. (In the case it's not the side mission I described earlier).

Modifié par gi0m, 17 août 2010 - 09:29 .

[Vilanova]

to be honest... Even Martin Sheen said that he wouldnt trust him either.

[mosor]

Vilanova wrote...

to be honest... Even Martin Sheen said that he wouldnt trust him either.

I like Martin Sheen, but in real life he is a raving liberal.

[Roamingmachine]

To people who trust Cerberus and/or The Illusive Man....What connects the modern day islamo****s,christiamofacists, red "revolutionaries" and every other terrorist group in existance and Cerberus? They all think they are the greatest thing that has ever happened to humanity since sliced bread.They are all full of crap.

Fear anyone who claims to have humanitys best interests at heart, for he has allready decided that he knows YOUR best interests better than you do.



All that said, boom goes the collector base.

[LorDC]

Your analogy is incorrect. Al Caeda(or how the **** this name is spelled in english) does not try to save humanity from genocide.

[Roamingmachine]

LorDC wrote...

Your analogy is incorrect. Al Caeda(or how the **** this name is spelled in english) does not try to save humanity from genocide.

Ah, but they do claim to be the 'salvation' of humanity.Converting or killing for whatever judgement day they believe in.Doesn't that sound familiar? Just because cerberus is against the reapers doesn't mean that they are your friends.They are merely the enemy of your enemy.Would you give Al-Qaeda the technology to build a nuke just because you shared a common enemy with them at the time?

[smudboy]

Roamingmachine wrote...

LorDC wrote...

Your analogy is incorrect. Al Caeda(or how the **** this name is spelled in english) does not try to save humanity from genocide.

Ah, but they do claim to be the 'salvation' of humanity.Converting or killing for whatever judgement day they believe in.Doesn't that sound familiar? Just because cerberus is against the reapers doesn't mean that they are your friends.They are merely the enemy of your enemy.Would you give Al-Qaeda the technology to build a nuke just because you shared a common enemy with them at the time?

1) Believing in a judgement day because some old book said so obscurely, and
2) Having a mountain of evidence of a judgement day and the known vehicles that constitute and describe it's instigation and means
Are two very, VERY different things.

No matter how bad or extreme Cerberus is, they'll never come anywhere in the same galaxy as close to the Reapers.

[mosor]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

mosor wrote...

I like Martin Sheen, but in real life he is a raving liberal.

Better that then one of those retards from The Tea Party.

The tea party are isolationists. They'll  put their heads in the sand and dismiss the reaper claims because fighting them costs too much.

[Roamingmachine]

smudboy wrote...
1) Believing in a judgement day because some old book said so obscurely, and
2) Having a mountain of evidence of a judgement day and the known vehicles that constitute and describe it's instigation and means
Are two very, VERY different things.

No matter how bad or extreme Cerberus is, they'll never come anywhere in the same galaxy as close to the Reapers.

Sorry for being unclear.What i meant with the salvation bit was the rhetoric cerberus uses in lore (check the illusive mans' manifesto). The reapers are an acute threat for cerberus too and they will actively combat it, but in the end they are still loony terrorists and giving them anything that gives them an edge over the lawful forces of the galaxy is self-destructive behaviour.Nothing in their rhetoric or actions make them any diffrent of the terrorist organizations past or present.And while fighting a common enemy with them is allright under the circumstances Shepard is in, giving them the collector base is in the belief that they will only use it to fight the reapers is naive.They will turn it on the galaxy, council and even earth itself in an effort to impose their vision.

[mosor]

Roamingmachine wrote...

smudboy wrote...
1) Believing in a judgement day because some old book said so obscurely, and
2) Having a mountain of evidence of a judgement day and the known vehicles that constitute and describe it's instigation and means
Are two very, VERY different things.

No matter how bad or extreme Cerberus is, they'll never come anywhere in the same galaxy as close to the Reapers.

Sorry for being unclear.What i meant with the salvation bit was the rhetoric cerberus uses in lore (check the illusive mans' manifesto). The reapers are an acute threat for cerberus too and they will actively combat it, but in the end they are still loony terrorists and giving them anything that gives them an edge over the lawful forces of the galaxy is self-destructive behaviour.Nothing in their rhetoric or actions make them any diffrent of the terrorist organizations past or present.And while fighting a common enemy with them is allright under the circumstances Shepard is in, giving them the collector base is in the belief that they will only use it to fight the reapers is naive.They will turn it on the galaxy, council and even earth itself in an effort to impose their vision.

Terrorist implies they've done some terrorizing, Cerberus hasn't to my knowledge. Their worst crime is human experimentation with the goal of human betterment. While that may be immoral or morally gray depending on your viewpoint, this hardly qualifies them as terrorist. Also to my knowledge, they haven't intentionally harmed an alien unless they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when conducting one of their operations.

As for giving them the collector base. You're implying Cerberus is a bigger threat than the reapers. That in itself is pretty naive. At worst, I'd rather have a human dominated galaxy than an extinct one.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zan51 wrote...

I'd be afraid TIM would use it to make humanity supreme in the galaxy and I won't risk that. Thoughts of an alien holocaust as he wipes out other species worry me.

Since when has 'domination = 'holocaust'? Most stable historic dominant powers were not genocidal maniacs, and Cerberus has fewer counts of even attempted genocide than the Council has successful cases.

Killing off aliens is hardly good for human interests. First, it's a lot of trouble with a lot of cost to humanity for not much gain that can't be accomplished otherwise. Second, dead aliens make poor customers. Third, you can't be dominant when you're alone.

[Roamingmachine]

mosor wrote...

Terrorist implies they've done some terrorizing, Cerberus hasn't to my knowledge. Their worst crime is human experimentation with the goal of human betterment. While that may be immoral or morally gray depending on your viewpoint, this hardly qualifies them as terrorist. Also to my knowledge, they haven't intentionally harmed an alien unless they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when conducting one of their operations.

As for giving them the collector base. You're implying Cerberus is a bigger threat than the reapers. That in itself is pretty naive. At worst, I'd rather have a human dominated galaxy than an extinct one.

Assassinations are a form of terror tactics as are sabotage and kidnappings and Cerberus has certainly done a lot of those.Not all terrorists blow themselves up in public places (only the stupid ones).Terror IS their method of getting things done and deserve the label they get.

You are also making the same mistake modern governments have when funding/equipping terrorists abroad: Not thinking about what happens after the current conflict.No, Cerberus is not a bigger threat to the galaxy than reapers and in fact are not a threat at all so long as the reaper threat remains but that doesn't change their ultimate goals or the fact that they are raving extremists.The worst case scenario is not a human-dominated galaxy, it's CERBERUS dominated galaxy.Remember, these people think they know whats best for humanity and will kill anyone who doesn't agree with their vision.

[Dean_the_Young]

Roamingmachine wrote...


Assassinations are a form of terror tactics as are sabotage and kidnappings and Cerberus has certainly done a lot of those.Not all terrorists blow themselves up in public places (only the stupid ones).Terror IS their method of getting things done and deserve the label they get.

Those are only terror tactics when done openly. Terrorism is about attention-getting and pushing others by fear: Cerberus's actions have been by and large so quiet and hidden that most people don't even know it exists, let alone act in fear of it. When Cerberus has killed politicians, it has been to remove the politician, not create a climate of terror. When it has sabatoged, those sabatoge have been to accomplish a goal (like biotics).

You are also making the same mistake modern governments have when funding/equipping terrorists abroad: Not thinking about what happens after the current conflict.No, Cerberus is not a bigger threat to the galaxy than reapers and in fact are not a threat at all so long as the reaper threat remains but that doesn't change their ultimate goals or the fact that they are raving extremists.The worst case scenario is not a human-dominated galaxy, it's CERBERUS dominated galaxy.Remember, these people think they know whats best for humanity and will kill anyone who doesn't agree with their vision.

Your sense of history is mistaken by the assumption that blowback is unnatural. All actions, and inactions, have later consequences, and the fact that they are later does not make them worse. Solving a great problem while bringing lesser problems down the road is always better than letting the great problem stand.

Your sense of proportion is also skewed. Cerberus isn't even 100 agents. No matter how powerful it's technology, the galaxy isn't under the Cerberus banner. Cerberus doesn't even control the Alliance/

[smudboy]

Roamingmachine wrote...

smudboy wrote...
1) Believing in a judgement day because some old book said so obscurely, and
2) Having a mountain of evidence of a judgement day and the known vehicles that constitute and describe it's instigation and means
Are two very, VERY different things.

No matter how bad or extreme Cerberus is, they'll never come anywhere in the same galaxy as close to the Reapers.

Sorry for being unclear.What i meant with the salvation bit was the rhetoric cerberus uses in lore (check the illusive mans' manifesto). The reapers are an acute threat for cerberus too and they will actively combat it, but in the end they are still loony terrorists and giving them anything that gives them an edge over the lawful forces of the galaxy is self-destructive behaviour.Nothing in their rhetoric or actions make them any diffrent of the terrorist organizations past or present.And while fighting a common enemy with them is allright under the circumstances Shepard is in, giving them the collector base is in the belief that they will only use it to fight the reapers is naive.They will turn it on the galaxy, council and even earth itself in an effort to impose their vision.

I don't see how Cerberus sees the Reapers as an "acute threat."  If anything, if they have such a positive opinion on victory, I would consider this a healthy, though misguided belief on the future if said threat is dealt with.  That's miles more than any other party involved.  And, if that's their opinion or plan, we want to ensure these guys can do the job as efficiently and successfully as possible.  As I've stated before, Cerberus with the Collector Base is a bajillion times safer to the galaxy than the Reapers.  To think 150 people who are extreme in their methods who are given a piece of unknown alien technology is more dangerous than innumerable million year old machine gods who destroy all life forever, is retarded.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

ArchDemonXIII wrote...

DaBigDragon wrote...

Not destroying the Collector Base would be like not stopping the **** Concentration Camps in World War II because we could "learn from" the methods and technologies used there.

Actually, you'd be surprised some of the medicinal advances we got from Joseph Mengele's "research". If I remember correctly, a lot of our knowledge of hypothermia came from his work. Saving Maelon's genophage data is a closer analogy.

Not that I'm saying you shouldn't destroy the base, more of a random trivia thing. 

The only thing worthwhile learned from any of those experiments is that the paper worked was used as a means to convict all of the sick bastards after the war. I'd like to know some of these "medicinal advances" that you speak of, given that I have repeatedly read and watched otherwise.

[mosor]

Drodjan wrote...

mosor wrote... 
Terrorist implies they've done some terrorizing, Cerberus hasn't to my knowledge. Their worst crime is human experimentation with the goal of human betterment. While that may be immoral or morally gray depending on your viewpoint, this hardly qualifies them as terrorist. Also to my knowledge, they haven't intentionally harmed an alien unless they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when conducting one of their operations.

 "Cerberus also deliberately destroyed a settlement on Chasca by turning the colonial pioneer team there into Husks. A traumatised marine named Corporal Toombs also claimed that in one of their most devastating experiments, Cerberus lured thresher maws to the colony on Akuze, resulting in the notorious massacre, later capturing Toombs -- one of the only survivors -- to conduct brutal tests."

- http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus

Miranda may be ignorant enough to say that it was ok to experiment on husks because she doesn't realize that Cerberus is evil enough to deliberately turn innocent human beings into them. It does not stretch my imagination or believability at ALL to see TIM use the Collector base to crank out the army of husks he's always wanted. 

Anyways, in addition to engineering mass killings (they also lured thresher maws onto Kahoku's men) they assasinated an Alliance admiral. Also, 

"The Illusive Man believes that the political party Terra Firma has a part to play in humanity's ascension and even used an assassination in order to put the right man — Charles Saracino — in power. The Illusive Man's belief that biotics are the future of humanity led him to order the sabotage and detonation of Eldfell-Ashland Energy starships over human colonies, to ensure biotic children would be born."

- http://masseffect.wi...ki/Illusive_Man
... resulting in 30% of the babies exposed to develop cancerous tumors. Defend their goals however you want, but the actions of Cerberus are the actions of a terrorist organization. I would sooner destroy the Collector Base any day than allow it to fall into their evil (and inept) hands. Really, lets make a list of every Cerberus experiment to go horribly wrong and result in the deaths of everyone involved: 
1. The Teltin Facility
2. The cells researching rachni all died, and the rachni all got loose and wreaked havoc
3.The cell researching creepers were all killed except for the lot Shepard found (they didn't last long after that with my Shepard, I assure you)
4. The Derelict Reaper team were all indoctrinated and died (the collector base assuredly would do the same, as the collectors were indoctrinated. And I doubt the reapers would make the same mistake twice of letting the base fall once they regained control with the new slaves Cerberus unwittingly gives them)
5. Project Overlord
6. Project Firewalker
... need I go on? Yeah, the Reapers might be more dangerous than Cerberus, but the Collector Base in Cerberus hands is a danger in and of itself. I say it's far riskier to keep it. I blow that thing to hell every single time. 

Yes but none of that is terrorism. The goal of terrorism is to intentionally and publically terrorize. By your defintion,  almost any criminal gang would be labelled terrorist. I'm not saying cerberus are saints, but they arn't terrorists either. Now the batarians who tried to destroy terra nova, the franklin colony and release a deadly virus on the citadel meet that defintion.

Here is a history of human experimentation in the US. Plenty sponsored by the government. I'm not going to even get into their black ops and assasionation plots. Plenty of these makes Cerberus look tame and humane in comparison. The only people calling america a terrorist state are left wing and muslim radicals,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

Modifié par mosor, 18 août 2010 - 03:02 .

[mosor]

double post

Modifié par mosor, 18 août 2010 - 02:42 .

[IBPROFEN]

if you give him the base, maybe ME3.5, You now got to stop Cerberus and Tim. If not ME3 game over.

[PWENER]

Human Council+Keeping base= Human Dominance